I don't know if anyone else has seen this article so I thought I would post it on the forum.
With the wealth of knowledge here, I thought maybe someone might know how to reach out to Ford.
https://fordauthority.com/2020/04/ford-asks-for-help-identifying-this-mid-engine-ford-mustang/
We have discussed that on the forum. Why dont they think its the Mach 2?
The lack of the companys corporate knowledge reveals why they are badging SUVs with Mustang names.
QuoteSurprisingly, people at Ford seem to be unaware that in 1966 Ford was working on a two-seater, mid-engine Mustang that is clearly nothing like a normal 1966 Mustang.
Not surprising.
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=9988.msg83644#msg83644
We need someone at Ford to share more, we can help.
🤗
I do agree with Jeff, the car was likely a pre-1967 chassis
Do we know where the Mach 2 is?
Does FORD still have it? It should be an easy identification at that point.
I almost fell off my chair. The Mach 2 was around the styling studios for quite a while. It was on the cover of a car magazine in 1971. And, wouldn't those numbers on the bottom of the date board be some kind of file number. Oh wait, they tossed those out with the production records of the 65 and 66 Mustangs, LOL.
Let's give credit to Phil, he "found" these before Ford knew what they were
All they need to do is let me crawl around in the archives for a few weeks.
Quote from: Coralsnake on April 09, 2020, 10:32:34 AM
Do we know where the Mach 2 is?
Does FORD still have it? It should be an easy identification at that point.
According to Henry's Kar-Kraft book two Mach II (also referred to as "Mach 2" and "Mach IIA") were built - a red one that was fully functional and shown to the media, and a white one for testing and development.
The intent was for a limited run with production handled by A.O. Smith.
That as we know never happened and both cars are reported to have been crushed (we've heard that before). Story goes that one of the Mach 2s exploded in the crusher because of some gas that was left in one of it's two tanks.
- Phillip
Lets start a petition
Phil goes to Detroit
Great thread, and thanks to Phil for getting things started with his original post of the pictures in the other thread !. I always liked
this concept. I have this 1:43 model by AutoCult, they must have got the dimensions and details somewhere ? Maybe in one of the
magazines from back in the day some one mentioned, or from Ford ? No where on the packaging does it say, produced with
permission from Ford, which is a bit odd ? I've include a scan of part of the information sheet that came with the model.
Maybe Phil will find something for us at Ford ;)
Mike
I'd guess that the problem with not many of those who still work at Ford knowing in-depth about their history is just that...not many of them are left.
Twenty years ago, there were still plenty of old timers wandering around the halls of Ford Dearborn's many buildings. Not now.
Once the truly knowledgeable historians like John Clinard are totally out of the sphere of any influence with the company, those days of brain-trust knowledge are gone.
Awesome thread
Quote from: gt350shelb on April 09, 2020, 10:53:25 AM
All they need to do is let me crawl around in the archives for a few weeks.
When this is over i smell a "Road trip"
Photos of the engine bay of the Mach2 should reveal if it's the same chassis just reskined.
QuoteI'd guess that the problem with not many of those who still work at Ford knowing in-depth about their history is just that...not many of them are left.
Twenty years ago, there were still plenty of old timers wandering around the halls of Ford Dearborn's many buildings. Not now.
Once the truly knowledgeable historians like John Clinard are totally out of the sphere of any influence with the company, those days of brain-trust knowledge are gone.
Agreed.
IMHO, there's a lot of current Ford employees who work there but never grew up immersed in automobiles and the people who created them. Today, they only know what they can find online or look up in company records, which are probably by no means complete.
Change my mind.
I have heard the archives are tightly controlled. There is no dewey decimal system and no indexing. Its temperature controlled (read cold) and takes a long time to sort through photos, many like this, without context.
I read somewhere the car was crushed ...... and they only emptied 1 of fuel tanks and it exploded in crusher.
Part of the reason everything we have to buy for our cars is used or overseas aftermarket.
I remember the first time I went to Indy and the Black MKII was there. I got the impression that Ford didn't know it was there.
Soon after that Convention Ford came and took it.
They have so many things worked on by so many people a complete car is maybe harder to find then a new 289hp block hidden in their secret stashes?
It's not so much that it can't be understood that they can't find anything or never heard of something because of their size but their entire Corporate attitude that is characterized like that of Leo Bebe was in "Ford vs. Ferrari" gets really ugly, really fast?
Chances are both of the cars still exist, stashed away in some corner of some forgotten museum. Cars like this are hard to kill. They had too much inherent soul?
In the old days a lot of stuff that was scheduled to be crushed slipped through the cracks. Engineering test cars that were taken home for evaluation. Cars that went on loan to museums. Cars that went to the press. Long term test cars. Movie loan cars (a lot of which were development mules so they were current when movie came out). Even flood and train wreck cars that they get back. In the past 10-15 years there is better tracking. A Ford exec goes to watch it being crushed. He's required to pull the VIN tag and sticker off the car and take pictures of it before and after crushing.
Frankly I think there is more history to the photo than the car simply being a "Mach II" but my suspicions have not been confirmed so Id rather not go too much further with the theory. I do believe that the car pictured (at that time in its life/development) was actually a planned product by/for Shelby American.
Just a theory but ive seen drawings of a car that is exactly like that car in an intra company, confidential product summary book which was owned by a Shelby American executive. Im awaiting more pictures of the item from the owner.
Im not saying the car didnt eventually become the Mach II, more that it may have been intended to be something else at the start.
Kind regards,
Vern
Wonder why ford would have picked a California smog engine to try and fit in a mid engine car dealing with all the clearance problems on front of engine added smog pump, brackets,canisters, pulleys,hoses,belts etc? Also note the bluedot tires.
It is an interesting car but to me it looks more like a road marker of showing where thought was being given.
A successful Mustang production vehicle. The continuation of the GT40 as the Gulf. Still lingering sentiment about Ford owning an Italian car company, and the introduction of Detomaso and his Pantera into the equation?
Lots of wheels spinning at the same time. Someone needed to decide what was strictly a design exercise and why the company should go in one particular direction considering the looming EPA issues that needed to be complied with?
Ford does not have a good record on continuing with one particular design deviation.
You can list the "projects" they had been involved with going back into the '30s and culminating maybe even as far as the re-emergence of the GT, dangling it as a shiny object to the public, then bang, it was gone?
Some say a leopard can't change it's spots? I'd expect more of the same from them?
They continue to play hocus-pocus with moving names around on cars like the electric SUV "Mustang". They ain't going to change. They've always attempted to hedge their bets.
The Mach was just one of them. Lots of cars were reported to be crushed that weren't.
It will be the Phoenix, rising out of the ashes. Wait and see. Someone somewhere has it.
I'd call it the C-8. phred
The Mach 2 street car (red one) engine bay looked like this. The white racing car was constructed in a different way at Kar Kraft.
(http://www.ponysite.de/mach2_streetcarengine.jpg)
That picture to me really illustrates how close the car could have been to production?
I think at the point it is comes the marketability study? More then anything, it didn't capture the interest of the public to a level that justified building them in profitable numbers but you know, it could have made it through one of those 3,500 car builds like the current GT?
Maybe the determining factor was "product loyalty"? I remember seeing info that even the Crown Vic had a loyalty following and Ford would reward those repeat buyers?
What sort of loyalty following would the Mach have? Maybe just introduce the name into the Mustang line? Hey, wait...!
The white Mach 2 race car version at KK - I think this was once posted by Tom T. (not sure)
(http://www.ponysite.de/mach2racecartom.jpg)
(http://www.ponysite.de/mach2racecartom2.jpg)
How would you like to have a time machine and be able to walk the halls of Ford and SA in the 60's. I bet it was incredible.
"Fly on the wall" might be the right train of thought?
Motor Trend, December of 1969. It's on the cover.
just posted today
https://fordauthority.com/2020/04/ford-has-figured-out-what-that-mid-engine-mustang-actually-was/
Yep. Something is stirring over at Ford?
Are they going to resurrect it? Maybe they are going to do a post mortem in relation to reviewing clamor for the C8?
There are "executive aids" that have the responsibility of listening to what the "people" are saying.
Expressions of displeasure with Ford are leaking to the top at Ford maybe?
So glad they read my memo to them
Quote from: KerryBWhite on April 15, 2020, 08:43:44 AM
just posted today
https://fordauthority.com/2020/04/ford-has-figured-out-what-that-mid-engine-mustang-actually-was/
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on April 15, 2020, 09:45:23 AM
So glad they read my memo to them
Quote from: KerryBWhite on April 15, 2020, 08:43:44 AM
just posted today
https://fordauthority.com/2020/04/ford-has-figured-out-what-that-mid-engine-mustang-actually-was/
They have never officially acknowledged anything in the past. It's just standard procedure on their part probably for self preservation?
The Exec's want to go to friendly crowd gathering, not a lynching?
Maybe it got built behind a wall somewhere in Detroit.
They'll re-introduce it with a battery pack...
Quote from: JD on April 15, 2020, 01:09:27 PM
They'll re-introduce it with a battery pack...
Power train flexibility doesn't hurt but something simple like battery placement in the chassis was never looked at initially.
What I suspect was stumbled upon here though is re-examining the work already done on a mid-engine layout?
Ford already looked at using mostly Mustang components and they could jump a few steps here on catching up to the C8?
I'd be watching for some mid-engined Mustangs running around Dearborn soon?
IMO, this is a Ford PR stunt. "Hey, look at us, we had a mid-engined Mustang designed over 50 years ago!" C8 who?
Developing a new Ford "crossover"? Something between an affordable Mustang and the insanely expensive but exotic mid-engine Ford GT maybe as a C8 priced competitor that can be produced in bulk? 8)
Quote from: Don Johnston on April 15, 2020, 04:07:26 PM
Developing a new Ford "crossover"? Something between an affordable Mustang and the insanely expensive but exotic mid-engine Ford GT maybe as a C8 priced competitor that can be produced in bulk? 8)
I'll listen but Ford hasn't implied or suggested anything. Even so, the C8 is still cheaper then a Shelby is. If they do something, it's the better side of proving they can build something. Here, they'd need to be price competitive.
A battle like that between GM and Ford would benefit us all.
I've just got my suspicions that's all? Was that Mach ever sent to Europe for evaluation and never came back. Why not hide it over there?
Maybe something for the phased out GT350 crew to work on for another new series. But will it be the Mach 2 to go with the Mach E and Bullit inspired Mach I soon to be released? 8)
Some of you may be aware of the home movie shot by Kar Kraft employee Larry Lawrence titled "A tour of Kar Kraft in 1969". It is featured on the Mac's Motor City web site with a link to the actual film on You Tube. You can find it here:
https://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/video-a-tour-of-kar-kraft-in-1969/
Various new Ford performance cars of the era are featured among GT40's and a Trans Am Mustang. Many are identified in the accompanying article. The Mach 2 makes an appearance at 2:28.
Even more interesting is a '69 Sportsroof referred to as the LIDS Mustang, which appears at 4:06. When rear sports slats are lifted at 4:45, the rear backlite is absent and a Boss 429 engine is seen in the rear seat area. Subsequent footage shows the front hood raised to display an empty engine compartment. The Macs site mentions that they featured this car a few weeks earlier than the June 4, 2015 date of this installment, but I could not find anything in their archive. So I wonder what became of this mid engine Mustang?
The video closes with a tour of the Boss 429 assembly line, complete with underneath views of the cars shot from the line pit beneath. Engines awaiting installation are shown on stands - Restorers take note!
This is an altogether quite interesting video, which suffers only from poor visual quality, likely due to the media it was originally shot on. But regardless - Enjoy!
Just a thought. If Ford is really looking for research assistance that requires the knowledge and time of SAAC members, how about Ford assisting with some sponsorship funds for a SAAC convention or two as an incentive. 8)
Quote from: Don Johnston on April 15, 2020, 08:00:15 PM
Just a thought. If Ford is really looking for research assistance that requires the knowledge and time of SAAC members, how about Ford assisting with some sponsorship funds for a SAAC convention or two as an incentive. 8)
That's really funny. Hilarious in fact!
;D that bridge was burned
I will say that, the Mach2 predated the Fiero and the Toyota MR2 by about 12 years. Ford had the Pinto at the time so nobody at Ford needed a 2 seat commuter/economy car.
Looking at it again, for the late '60s it wasn't far from a producable car BUT what about everything it would need to conform to now with the EPA like crash worthiness, etc.
I think someone is looking at it?
How far has the current Mustang evolved from the 65? Is it at the end of the line and could the Mach II breath a new extension to it?
Again, like it or not but the success of the C8 has everyones attention.
I don't think a bridge really ever existed. It was more like a mirage Ford was projecting?
There was lots of snickering behind our backs at Ford about us. Shelby had to step in and made a phone call in Michigan to get the Chrysler track for us.
When Ford heard about it all of a sudden a Ford test track became available.
I miss CS. He wasn't perfect but neither am I or SAAC.