SAAC Concours update in rules
We have a few changes made by unanimous consent of the judging team and the SAAC higher ups ,
1 Starting with this years show at Sonoma and going forward we will no longer accept a Premier class car for judging if the color has been changed. The car will automatically be put in SAAC Concours
2 If a car is entered in SAAC Concours and has had the color changed it will not be eligible for a gold award and will automatically start judging as a silver and go from there.
3 We also have decided to change the percentages of points needed for awards to match the higher standards of MCA mail so theres no conflict. Its a tiny change going to 97% to achieve gold, 94% to achieve silver and 91 % to achieve bronze . This change will be reflected in the concours guidelines and judging sheets.
We feel these changes were necessary to protect the Marque and the high standards of SAAC Judging and will be valid with this years convention
We also have decided to change the percentages of points needed for awards to match the higher standards of MCA mail so theres no conflict.
This makes perfect sense to me -
How can a Car that has been repainted a different color from Factory be Concours? Even a Car that was painted back the same color from Factory but Clear Coated shouldn't be in Concours. Concours is Cars that are 100% Factory Correct.
Quote from: tesgt350 on March 13, 2018, 12:35:49 PM
How can a Car that has been repainted a different color from Factory be Concours? Even a Car that was painted back the same color from Factory but Clear Coated shouldn't be in Concours. Concours is Cars that are 100% Factory Correct.
Doing the math, it looks like concours awards are for cars that are at least 91% factory correct.
Quote from: tesgt350 on March 13, 2018, 12:35:49 PM
How can a Car that has been repainted a different color from Factory be Concours? Even a Car that was painted back the same color from Factory but Clear Coated shouldn't be in Concours. Concours is Cars that are 100% Factory Correct.
The color change was a loop hole that was eliminated. You would be surprised at how much we try and spell out what is expected and yet still have cars that enter that are too far off the at least 91% mark . It is volunteer time for the judges and staff so it is expected that a car entered in concours be of a caliper that would be able to get to at least one of the award levels. Otherwise you would have everyone and their brother entering just for a evaluation check list regardless of restored level. It is a terrible feeling to have to tell someone that their car is too far off the mark to be in the concours venue and do it in a way that is respectful and sensitive . We want to help preserve the Marque by offering help in education to others in that effort which is why people volunteer their time. We can do that in the concours venue and also along with others by participating helping outside the concours venue. People being helpful to each other on this forum is a good example.
Hard to believe anyone would submit a car for judging that was a color change either way. Can I ask, how many points deduction is a non original color repaint anyway?
30 points if I remember correctly
Quote from: BGlover67 on March 13, 2018, 01:37:56 PM
Hard to believe anyone would submit a car for judging that was a color change either way. Can I ask, how many points deduction is a non original color repaint anyway?
Going forward we wont put an exact point deduction on a color change since theres a sliding scale with more points for some cars than others. It will just be eliminated from Gold and the best it can get will be a silver
it is interesting to note that the concours standards can be so different for different makes and models of cars. I am in agreement that if you are going to show your car in concours then it needs to be restored to it's particular original state, including exterior color. For instance, in Austin Healeys, they have written concours guidelines. They allow original color changes, road worthy tires, and upgraded valve covers and coils without deductions. The nicest part is the WRITTEN guidelines. That way the standards are shared by all, not just the elite few who have done countless restorations. Why is it we don't have written guidelines?
Quote from: mk31755 on March 13, 2018, 02:10:53 PM
it is interesting to note that the concours standards can be so different for different makes and models of cars. I am in agreement that if you are going to show your car in concours then it needs to be restored to it's particular original state, including exterior color. For instance, in Austin Healeys, they have written concours guidelines. They allow original color changes, road worthy tires, and upgraded valve covers and coils without deductions. The nicest part is the WRITTEN guidelines. That way the standards are shared by all, not just the elite few who have done countless restorations. Why is it we don't have written guidelines?
anyone that wants to see judging sheets from previous years is welcome to email me and Ill send one
as for actual guidelines, we have 7 different classes we judge and the cars in each class have many running changes in parts and finishes and since theres no EXACT time frame on some of the changes we have to leave that to the judging team. Case in point 65 GT350s used three different hood configurations , 3 different steering wheels, a couple different color variations on the bottom primer. etc and that just 562 cars we have only approximation when the changes occurred
Quote from: tesgt350 on March 13, 2018, 12:35:49 PM
How can a Car that has been repainted a different color from Factory be Concours? Even a Car that was painted back the same color from Factory but Clear Coated shouldn't be in Concours. Concours is Cars that are 100% Factory Correct.
I don't think a clear coat on an otherwise perfect car should matter. And it never has btw.
If the judges want to deduct for that then maybe treated like non confirming exhaust or shifter boot etc. we cant go down the road or clear vs not.
Why?
I tell you...
Because take a look a the Wimbledon white cars.
Are they all the same color?........
Quote from: Bigfoot on March 13, 2018, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: tesgt350 on March 13, 2018, 12:35:49 PM
How can a Car that has been repainted a different color from Factory be Concours? Even a Car that was painted back the same color from Factory but Clear Coated shouldn't be in Concours. Concours is Cars that are 100% Factory Correct.
I don't think a clear coat on an otherwise perfect car should matter. And it never has btw.
If the judges want to deduct for that then maybe treated like non confirming exhaust or shifter boot etc. we cant go down the road or clear vs not.
Why?
I tell you...
Because take a look a the Wimbledon white cars.
Are they all the same color?........
B/C paint is not an issue if applied in a manner to replicate factory appearing orange peel. The desired appearance can be achieved with single stage or B/C by skilled painters. Not everyone likes orange peel or concours in general, its a choice.
First choice in doing a correct restoration should be single stage, but there are many reasons a shop or owner may choose to go with BC/CC. On a T-bred/Premiere car, it's more critical that the paint system be single stage, but otherwise, if it appears correct as Bob P mentioned, I don't see any issues in Concours. We're not going to ask owners to rub an area of paint to see if color comes up, we will simply judge them as presented. The only time BC/CC becomes a big issue is when there has been extensive 'cut and buff', which removes all orange peel.
It's just that when I hear the word " Concours" I think "Like Factory" not "Like Factory BUT Not Really". If your Car was Green when it left the Factory and it's now Red, it should NOT be in a Concours Class, same for Clear Coat. If your Car came with a 4 Speed and it now has an Automatic, it should not be in a Concours Class.
Quote from: Bigfoot on March 13, 2018, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: tesgt350 on March 13, 2018, 12:35:49 PM
How can a Car that has been repainted a different color from Factory be Concours? Even a Car that was painted back the same color from Factory but Clear Coated shouldn't be in Concours. Concours is Cars that are 100% Factory Correct.
I don't think a clear coat on an otherwise perfect car should matter. And it never has btw.
If the judges want to deduct for that then maybe treated like non confirming exhaust or shifter boot etc. we cant go down the road or clear vs not.
Why?
I tell you...
Because take a look a the Wimbledon white cars.
Are they all the same color?........
+1
That's fine. I'll just take the people's choice award while the purist get upset over chrome and lowered control arms. I don't have a museum, I drive it.
My vehicle looks factory, but with a lot of bright work. Perhaps I will change my position when I get old, or the next caretaker can choose the Concours route.
Because I drive my vehicle, safety is also very important to me. I will just not start welding on the chassis to improve handling.
-Keith
Whether we like it or not, there will always be some subjectivness to the judging. The human people doing the judging have various backgrounds/experiences and have seen and performed various levels of restorations. I'm sure a car that won gold 20 years ago probably wouldn't now because the judging is more educated. I also agree that a standard has to be set and if you are going for a TBred, Premiere, Concours class then the car should be single stage with orange peel like Ford/Shelby did it.
There are very, very few cars that can get the TBred award simply because the parts are no longer readily availabe. As most of you have done and know, it takes a lot of time and money to bring a car to that level. Personally, it has always been a fight within myself to do enough to the car to make it a fun driver and not take to a level which then prohibits me from driving it anymore. There is no right or wrong.
A wise fellow once told me, buy the car you want, have fun with it and when your done driving it, restore it to the level you want. ~~ Great advice~~
Quote from: Bigfoot on March 13, 2018, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: tesgt350 on March 13, 2018, 12:35:49 PM
How can a Car that has been repainted a different color from Factory be Concours? Even a Car that was painted back the same color from Factory but Clear Coated shouldn't be in Concours. Concours is Cars that are 100% Factory Correct.
I don't think a clear coat on an otherwise perfect car should matter. And it never has btw.
If the judges want to deduct for that then maybe treated like non confirming exhaust or shifter boot etc. we cant go down the road or clear vs not.
Why?
I tell you...
Because take a look a the Wimbledon white cars.
Are they all the same color?........
It is still possible to have a car restored to the original paint finish OR have the original paint finish. Why should a car that was re-painted in another paint system be held equal to the original?
It would seem that is fairer to one party then the other?
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 15, 2018, 10:09:19 AM
It is still possible to have a car restored to the original paint finish OR have the original paint finish. Why should a car that was re-painted in another paint system be held equal to the original?
It would seem that is fairer to one party then the other?
It only matters what is allowed according to the judging guidelines. The same could be said for a car with NOS tires on a Concours car. They might get a big thumbs up from the judges, but the car will score the same as the car with repro tires.
Quote from: caspian65 on March 15, 2018, 11:06:55 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 15, 2018, 10:09:19 AM
It is still possible to have a car restored to the original paint finish OR have the original paint finish. Why should a car that was re-painted in another paint system be held equal to the original?
It would seem that is fairer to one party then the other?
It only matters what is allowed according to the judging guidelines. The same could be said for a car with NOS tires on a Concours car. They might get a big thumbs up from the judges, but the car will score the same as the car with repro tires.
Yes. I understand that. What I am saying is that fair to the more original car?
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 15, 2018, 12:45:02 PM
Yes. I understand that. What I am saying is that fair to the more original car?
Likely no but that is a byproduct of rule making.
Like many things no matter where you draw the starting or finish line it can be seen as fair or unfair to a particular entrant.
In this specific matter (paint) owners and builders unequally are affected by governmental regulations and laws so it could be seen to be unfair to the BC/CC crowd that in order to get a single stage they would have to travel further, choose to break the law and/or spend more dollars to get the same paint job as someone in another state.
Overall there are a number of things that can be seen as unfair and I would not hesitate to say that some owners believe it is unfair that their cars must be painted the original color since other organizations don't require the same. I believe the bottom line is that the rules and guidelines are established, published and followed so each possible everyone gets to choose, if they wish, to participate.
Just an experienced observation.
Quote from: J_Speegle on March 15, 2018, 02:04:45 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 15, 2018, 12:45:02 PM
Yes. I understand that. What I am saying is that fair to the more original car?
Likely no but that is a byproduct of rule making.
Like many things no matter where you draw the starting or finish line it can be seen as fair or unfair to a particular entrant.
In this specific matter (paint) owners and builders unequally are affected by governmental regulations and laws so it could be seen to be unfair to the BC/CC crowd that in order to get a single stage they would have to travel further, choose to break the law and/or spend more dollars to get the same paint job as someone in another state.
Overall there are a number of things that can be seen as unfair and I would not hesitate to say that some owners believe it is unfair that their cars must be painted the original color since other organizations don't require the same. I believe the bottom line is that the rules and guidelines are established, published and followed so each possible everyone gets to choose, if they wish, to participate.
Just an experienced observation.
It doesn't really matter to me because I don't compete in any type of a Concourse event but what you are saying is that the rules here are catered to political appeasement rather then to rewarding the historically accurate?
There are two Concourse classes now. One that requires assembly line parts. One that accepts substitutions for those parts.
Why isn't paint finish classified the same way. One is original assembly line. The other is an acceptable substitution?
When has the cost of competing ever been a consideration? If you want to compete with a 427 Cobra, first you have to have the car?
Doug , It's called the unrestored class. Original paint is a requirement! The 3rd class ;), the most important class. Unfortunately not many cars left with original paint. Most Clubs try to have guidelines to meet the 3 concours classes.
I am always fascinated by the opinions of those who never plan to enter concours.
Quote from: caspian65 on March 15, 2018, 11:06:55 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 15, 2018, 10:09:19 AM
It is still possible to have a car restored to the original paint finish OR have the original paint finish. Why should a car that was re-painted in another paint system be held equal to the original?
It would seem that is fairer to one party then the other?
It only matters what is allowed according to the judging guidelines. The same could be said for a car with NOS tires on a Concours car. They might get a big thumbs up from the judges, but the car will score the same as the car with repro tires.
As long as those Tires are Repros of what came on the Car from Factory. Tires like BF G's should NOT be allowed on a Car being Judged for Concours.
Quote from: tesgt350 on March 15, 2018, 03:57:41 PM
Quote from: caspian65 on March 15, 2018, 11:06:55 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 15, 2018, 10:09:19 AM
It is still possible to have a car restored to the original paint finish OR have the original paint finish. Why should a car that was re-painted in another paint system be held equal to the original?
It would seem that is fairer to one party then the other?
It only matters what is allowed according to the judging guidelines. The same could be said for a car with NOS tires on a Concours car. They might get a big thumbs up from the judges, but the car will score the same as the car with repro tires.
As long as those Tires are Repros of what came on the Car from Factory. Tires like BF G's should NOT be allowed on a Car being Judged for Concours.
They are not allowed now and there are deductions in place if the choice is made to have them when entered.
Quote from: J_Speegle on March 15, 2018, 02:04:45 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 15, 2018, 12:45:02 PM
Yes. I understand that. What I am saying is that fair to the more original car?
Likely no but that is a byproduct of rule making.
Like many things no matter where you draw the starting or finish line it can be seen as fair or unfair to a particular entrant.
In this specific matter (paint) owners and builders unequally are affected by governmental regulations and laws so it could be seen to be unfair to the BC/CC crowd that in order to get a single stage they would have to travel further, choose to break the law and/or spend more dollars to get the same paint job as someone in another state.
Overall there are a number of things that can be seen as unfair and I would not hesitate to say that some owners believe it is unfair that their cars must be painted the original color since other organizations don't require the same. I believe the bottom line is that the rules and guidelines are established, published and followed so each possible everyone gets to choose, if they wish, to participate.
Just an experienced observation.
Doug: You can change the color but you cant win a gold if you do. You cant compete in SAAC Premiere at all if its a color change , you will get put in SAAC Concours and SAAC Unrestored has to have original paint
So, what is Tbred and Premier? I know what concours is, I think. ???
Quote from: SNAKEBIT on September 25, 2018, 05:24:41 PM
So, what is Tbred and Premier? I know what concours is, I think. ???
They are labels/names of two very similar classes for two different organizations. In both classes points can be deducted for reproduction or non-original parts (even parts sold as NOS) if found or discovered during judging. In addition in both judges can consider date codes and paint marks as part of the process. Both are restored classes.
Thoroughbred is a class in MCA (Mustang Club of America) Judging
Ok, thanks for clearing that up! I want my future Shelby to really be correct, but I wont be turning it into a concours car. I want to drive it around town, to take trips with the top down. Enjoy driving it, not trailering it. Once a year, I will give it a "once-over" inside and out.
Fascinating discussion here.
I don't think I could ever own one, but I love unrestored and concours cars. As some people like to modify their car to go faster, have a slicker paint job, handle better, be a custom, or make it exactly as it was when it rolled out of LAX, Venice or A.O.Smith. That's the real beauty of owning these kinds of cars, you can do what makes you happy. I've had people tell me how I should turn my car into a concours vehicle, I've had other tell me what to change to make it "better", I've more tell me,"nice car"
Whatever you want the members of SAAC can help achieve your dream of what your cat should be.
We have such a depth of knowledge that I sometimes wonder "have we uncovered everything" but then somebody uncovers another box of letters, engineering drawings, photos or whatever then can find to add to the knowledge base.
Since the beginning the idea behind SAAC was promote and protect these cars and what they are.
My car is mostly stock, driven a lot and enjoyed. So if you want concours, we have those who can help you achieve that, if you want Day Two Car, we can help you achieve that, if you want a fat tired, flared fendered, 6 speed, lowered to the ground with a 5.4 modular motor we can even help find that.
Meanwhile I will enjoy the forums, learn about my car, make it a little more "stock" every year and I hope others appreciate what advice and services SAAC and its members provide
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on November 06, 2018, 02:20:40 PM
I don’t think I could ever own one, but I love unrestored and concours cars. As some people like to modify their car to go faster, have a slicker paint job, handle better, be a custom, or make it exactly as it was when it rolled out of LAX, Venice or A.O.Smith. That’s the real beauty of owning these kinds of cars, you can do what makes you happy. I’ve had people tell me how I should turn my car into a concours vehicle, I’ve had other tell me what to change to make it “better”, I’ve more tell me,”nice car”
Whatever you want the members of SAAC can help achieve your dream of what your cat should be.
We have such a depth of knowledge that I sometimes wonder “have we uncovered everything” but then somebody uncovers another box of letters, engineering drawings, photos or whatever then can find to add to the knowledge base.
Since the beginning the idea behind SAAC was promote and protect these cars and what they are.
My car is mostly stock, driven a lot and enjoyed. So if you want concours, we have those who can help you achieve that, if you want Day Two Car, we can help you achieve that, if you want a fat tired, flared fendered, 6 speed, lowered to the ground with a 5.4 modular motor we can even help find that.
Meanwhile I will enjoy the forums, learn about my car, make it a little more “stock” every year and I hope others appreciate what advice and services SAAC and its members provide
^^^ +1