SAAC Forum

The Cars => 1969-1970 Shelby GT350/500 => Topic started by: nvr-enuf on July 26, 2020, 12:14:25 PM

Title: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: nvr-enuf on July 26, 2020, 12:14:25 PM
Hello forum members

My issue lies with a non Shelby but thought I would ask the group since everyone is very helpful

I have a recently purchased 71 Torino with front disk brakes and rear drums
The issue is that I do not have brakes until the pedal is nearly to floor
I replaced rear brake cylinders
Bled the car numerous times
The master has a bleeder so I bled the master on the car
I have adjusted the rod in the booster such that as soon as the pedal moves the piston in the master is moving

Any thoughts as to why I can turn the wheel on the lift when the pedal is around 50 to 70 percent down ?

Thanks for any ideas

Scott

Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: trotrof1 on July 26, 2020, 12:28:27 PM
If you are sure all the air is out then I would suspect fluid leaking past the piston in the master cyl.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: nvr-enuf on July 26, 2020, 12:38:39 PM
Thanks - decided to order new master
Torino has boss 9 motor in it, canít wait to give it a rip
Thanks for the fast suggestion
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Coralsnake on July 26, 2020, 02:58:19 PM
Can you post s picture of the calipers you are using?
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: nvr-enuf on July 26, 2020, 04:44:41 PM
Hello Pete
Hopefully the caliper photo and engine eye candy are below - using smart phone vs laptop
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: The Going Thing on July 26, 2020, 04:50:27 PM
Did you pin the distribution block before you bled them with the tool? If not, the pin likely shifted. Rarely can you recenter a pin that has shifted all the way one way or the other without doing it with a pick though a line hole. Then it has to be pinned before bleeding.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: nvr-enuf on July 26, 2020, 04:55:40 PM
I did not, can you explain how to pin or can you pm me your number to explain

We bled everything old school - guy in car, other at the brakes. 

Attached is photo of distribution block
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: nvr-enuf on July 26, 2020, 05:06:23 PM
Just for Information, When bleeding,  I did have plenty of fluid come out at each wheel during the bleeding process
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: JohnB on July 26, 2020, 05:07:57 PM
https://www.musclecarresearch.com/brake-valve-tool
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Coralsnake on July 26, 2020, 05:21:03 PM
I cant tell from that photo. Does your bleeder point straight up towards the fender or to the back of the car?
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Dan353 on July 26, 2020, 05:29:10 PM
Correct me if Iím wrong  but that looks to be a drum brake distribution block (drum brakes at all four wheels).  Do you have a proportioning valve installed for the rear brakes?  These pictures are for a 1969 Mustang Sorry about the pictures can never get them to come out right
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Chris Thauberger on July 26, 2020, 06:19:05 PM
Correct me if Iím wrong  but that looks to be a drum brake distribution block (drum brakes at all four wheels).  Do you have a proportioning valve installed for the rear brakes?  These pictures are for a 1969 Mustang Sorry about the pictures can never get them to come out right

+1
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Krelboyne on July 26, 2020, 07:37:07 PM
+2 Definitely drum brake distribution block.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: The Going Thing on July 26, 2020, 09:45:19 PM
Yes, a drum brake block.  There is no residual valve. ( No proportioning valves on mustangs/shelbys) The master will be a drum master as well.  Smaller bore as well.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: trotrof1 on July 26, 2020, 09:58:45 PM
Make sure the shoes are configured correctly primary and secondary. The front shoes will have more backing plate exposed at the top next to the slave cyls. You want to have the shoes adjusted close to maintain a tight pedal. I would seat them and then back off till the drum starts to freewheel light resistance.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Royce Peterson on July 27, 2020, 08:39:32 AM
Make sure the bleeder screws on the calipers face to the rear. Classic mistake is to swap the calipers left - right which results in the bleeders pointing up and gives a space for trapped air.

The other classic mistake is not adjusting the rear shoes properly. They need to be tight enough that they drag slightly when the wheel is rotated after the first application.

As mentioned you seem to have a drum brake distribution block. Isn't the proportioning valve and residual valve contained in the MC in 71? Asking because I don't know.

Hello Pete
Hopefully the caliper photo and engine eye candy are below - using smart phone vs laptop
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: nvr-enuf on July 27, 2020, 10:17:51 AM
Hello everyone - thanks for the reply. 
I can confirm the bleeders in the front calipers are pointed up and towards the rear of the car (correct for bleeding from my understanding)
While the car has front disks, very well could have been a drum brake car - when I researched the car did start out as a 302 car but no knowledge or confirmation on original car brake set up.
New master will arrive today, this was ordered as a front disk brake car, it could be my current master is bypassing and / or the master is meant for a drum brake car
Distribution block - Thanks for confirming a front drum brake car, after installing the new master, I will see how the brakes are.  If still poor, I will look into the correct dist block for a disk brake car.
Thanks everyone
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Dan353 on July 27, 2020, 05:44:36 PM
Your going to need a proportioning valve also to balance the front and rear.  Discs use a different amount of fluid compare to drum brakes.  You can try Macís for a stock parts or you can use an adjustable proportion valve from an after market brake supplier like Bear brakes

Dan

https://www.macsautoparts.com/

https://baer.com/
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: The Going Thing on July 28, 2020, 12:37:58 PM
Ford didn't use a proportioning valve either.
They use a residual valve. It holds 3 psi to the rear drums.
NPD offers residual valves. Even aftermarket in 3 psi and 10 psi for rear disc. If you can do a double flair you can do this yourself.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Dan353 on July 28, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
Well if your going to be like that. why does the 1969 shop manual call it a proportioning valve?  maybe on the earlier years they used a residual valve but clearly in 1969 they used a proportioning valve. See photoís taken of 1969 shop manual for Cougar and Mustang.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Bob Gaines on July 28, 2020, 05:17:28 PM
Well if your going to be like that. why does the 1969 shop manual call it a proportioning valve?  maybe on the earlier years they used a residual valve but clearly in 1969 they used a proportioning valve. See photoís taken of 1969 shop manual for Cougar and Mustang.
It was referred to as a proportioning valve in 65/66 too. The 67 unit was virtually identical (enough difference to warrant a different engineering number)to the 68-70 proportioning valve .
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: The Going Thing on July 29, 2020, 12:17:02 AM
It's also called a residual valve by Ford. It does not function as a traditional proportioning valve as it doesn't control brake bias front to rear.  I though it was a proportioning as well.
Until I found out what it did.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Royce Peterson on July 29, 2020, 11:46:16 AM
They need to be pointed to the rear, not up. If they are pointed up that's the problem.

Hello everyone - thanks for the reply. 
I can confirm the bleeders in the front calipers are pointed up and towards the rear of the car (correct for bleeding from my understanding)
While the car has front disks, very well could have been a drum brake car - when I researched the car did start out as a 302 car but no knowledge or confirmation on original car brake set up.
New master will arrive today, this was ordered as a front disk brake car, it could be my current master is bypassing and / or the master is meant for a drum brake car
Distribution block - Thanks for confirming a front drum brake car, after installing the new master, I will see how the brakes are.  If still poor, I will look into the correct dist block for a disk brake car.
Thanks everyone
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Dan353 on July 29, 2020, 06:56:58 PM
Found this distribution block and proportioning valve (residual valve) all in one. From NPD  their part number is 2B091-20AA says it fits 1964-1971 FAIRLANE FAIRLANE, TORINO, 70 1/2 FALCON.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: The Going Thing on July 29, 2020, 09:08:48 PM
That one is complete.  You may have to change the line fittings. They are different with drum-disc cars.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: cj750 on August 01, 2020, 11:36:40 AM
Hello everyone - thanks for the reply. 
I can confirm the bleeders in the front calipers are pointed up and towards the rear of the car (correct for bleeding from my understanding)


As Royce noted, they should not be pointed up. Has this been addressed, and what was the result?

(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/487-010820113006.jpeg)
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Dan353 on August 02, 2020, 05:39:19 PM
It seems what is called a proportioning valve might do both proportioning and act as a residual valve.   Check out this video  yes I know heís talking about mopars but he does Ford brake parts too

https://youtu.be/qzUk8W1-2pw
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Royce Peterson on August 02, 2020, 06:33:25 PM
Not possible because residual valves are for disc brakes. A residual valve will be in both the front and rear master cylinder ports if a car has four wheel disc brakes. Residual valves are not used with drum brakes so it's really clear cut.

A proportioning valve - as Ford always calls it - is used in the rear drum brake circuit on Shelbys and Mustangs. A Proportioning valve restricts flow towards the rear drum so it does not lock up. It allows unrestricted flow back to the master cylinder, so it would not maintain any residual pressure whatsoever.

Never owned or worked on any Mopars. But I often read Mopar Action because I truly love the writings of Richard Ehrenburg (SAE).

It seems what is called a proportioning valve might do both proportioning and act as a residual valve.   Check out this video  yes I know heís talking about mopars but he does Ford brake parts too

https://youtu.be/qzUk8W1-2pw
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Dan353 on August 02, 2020, 07:25:15 PM
  Iím no expert so educate me.  How about posting some references,articles,videos etc... so that I may get a better understanding

Dan
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Forum Guide on August 02, 2020, 10:57:12 PM
Mod Note - this thread has been "sanitized" to keep it technical and on topic.
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Chris Thauberger on August 02, 2020, 11:48:56 PM
Mod Note - this thread has been "sanitized" to keep it technical and on topic.

Thank-you
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Royce Peterson on August 03, 2020, 12:54:23 PM
The factory shop manual has a lot of information including a description of how a proportioning valve works. This is the 1967 Mustang / Cougar / Fairlane / Falcon/ Mercury Intermediate manual but there is a similar section in any year Ford product shop manual. So look at yours.

Or use Google or any other search engine.


  Iím no expert so educate me.  How about posting some references,articles,videos etc... so that I may get a better understanding

Dan
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Royce Peterson on August 03, 2020, 12:55:15 PM
+1

Mod Note - this thread has been "sanitized" to keep it technical and on topic.

Thank-you
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: Dan353 on August 03, 2020, 05:54:03 PM
Thank you for the information
Title: Re: Looking for a little help regarding brakes
Post by: cj750 on August 14, 2020, 10:04:20 PM
So did you ever get the calipers flipped around right?