You all may have noticed car no. 20 has been offered up for sale recently, and as my friend Michael always says 'they want ALL the money for it.' Interestingly though, it has a Falcon hood prop installed. That's something I always read was rumored to have been installed on a few of the first 100 cars, but is rarely seen. But I do remember a few of the Shelby guru's saying that they never actually came that way from Shelby American. So which is it? Do we have any other documented double digit cars with the Falcon hood props from the factory?
#23 shows no evidence of a prop rod ever being installed and curious why it would even be a "thing" since the early cars use the metal framed hood and regular springs.
I wish these guys the best selling their car and not to try to sway anyone one way or another, but for transparency, it appears that the car as side stripes installed as a '68 car and also the inserts on the KH wheels are painted instead of natural. I only mention these 2 things because of the verbage in the previous registry saying "one of the most correct" '67's.
Very stand up car and anyone should be proud to own it.
Not to mention the lack of red oxide underside. Stripes can be fixed rather easily, but this is a big ticket item to change IMHO.
Quote from: BGlover67 on October 18, 2020, 02:12:22 PM
You all may have noticed car no. 20 has been offered up for sale recently, and as my friend Michael always says 'they want ALL the money for it.' Interestingly though, it has a Falcon hood prop installed. That's something I always read was rumored to have been installed on a few of the first 100 cars, but is rarely seen. But I do remember a few of the Shelby guru's saying that they never actually came that way from Shelby American. So which is it? Do we have any other documented double digit cars with the Falcon hood props from the factory?
I have studied these cars extensively for many years . Not that I have seen them all but have seen many hundreds which is enough to formulate a reasonable opinion. I have a high confidence level based on the evidence or lack there of that the prop rod was not typically used on a regular production 67 Shelby from the factory. As rmarble57 pointed out there would be no reason for it given the steel inner structure which allowed for full size Mustang hinge springs which had no problem holding the hood up. From my experience stories like that are typically made up to justify a non original aspect. The burden of proof would be on the story teller in a case like this.
When I saw #20 in the early 80 when Claude owned it, it had a aluminum tent pole attached to passenger side radiator support to hold up the hood. Car was kinda rough, with a 2 barrel carb on an adapter with stock carb in the trunk. Car had power steering and standard fan, no a 66 hipo fan. Very cool car indeed.
Quote from: BGlover67 on October 18, 2020, 03:48:39 PM
Not to mention the lack of red oxide underside. Stripes can be fixed rather easily, but this is a big ticket item to change IMHO.
I would guess an entire disassembly and repaint is needed to fix that?
Quote from: Sixx7shelby on October 18, 2020, 07:02:08 PM
When I saw #20 in the early 80 when Claude owned it, it had a aluminum tent pole attached to passenger side radiator support to hold up the hood. Car was kinda rough, with a 2 barrel carb on an adapter with stock carb in the trunk. Car had power steering and standard fan, no a 66 hipo fan. Very cool car indeed.
For clarity 67 GT350 did not come with a 66 hipo fan. In 67 the hipo used a 4 blade fan that was also used on non hipo applications.
Did the early cars use Koni front shocks?
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 18, 2020, 10:47:50 PM
Quote from: Sixx7shelby on October 18, 2020, 07:02:08 PM
When I saw #20 in the early 80 when Claude owned it, it had a aluminum tent pole attached to passenger side radiator support to hold up the hood. Car was kinda rough, with a 2 barrel carb on an adapter with stock carb in the trunk. Car had power steering and standard fan, no a 66 hipo fan. Very cool car indeed.
For clarity 67 GT350 did not come with a 66 hipo fan. In 67 the hipo used a 4 blade fan that was also used on non hipo applications.
Yes Bob, just stating how the car was at one time after it was restored and before it was restored. Power steering was reinstalled and hopefully original fan is back in place, (can't see from photos). Beautiful Shelby indeed.
Well, you get a lot of push back from the self-declared experts. The magstar paint issue, the "how much over spray (underspray?) on the chassis, other things that are hard to prove no matter how much investigation you do.
I will say that, I have no idea how they store that prop rod as it looks a little too long to fold down anywhere, but, this might have been one of those Shelby/American "let's try it" things.
They want 225K, and I hope they get it.
Quote from: Sixx7shelby on October 19, 2020, 06:36:36 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 18, 2020, 10:47:50 PM
Quote from: Sixx7shelby on October 18, 2020, 07:02:08 PM
When I saw #20 in the early 80 when Claude owned it, it had a aluminum tent pole attached to passenger side radiator support to hold up the hood. Car was kinda rough, with a 2 barrel carb on an adapter with stock carb in the trunk. Car had power steering and standard fan, no a 66 hipo fan. Very cool car indeed.
For clarity 67 GT350 did not come with a 66 hipo fan. In 67 the hipo used a 4 blade fan that was also used on non hipo applications.
Yes Bob, just stating how the car was at one time after it was restored and before it was restored. Power steering was reinstalled and hopefully original fan is back in place, (can't see from photos). Beautiful Shelby indeed.
I thought you knew better but your post could be taken the wrong way so the clarification was meant for others reading so that they did not get the wrong idea.
Quote from: roddster on October 19, 2020, 09:52:12 AM
Well, you get a lot of push back from the self-declared experts. The magstar paint issue, the "how much over spray (underspray?) on the chassis, other things that are hard to prove no matter how much investigation you do.
I will say that, I have no idea how they store that prop rod as it looks a little too long to fold down anywhere, but, this might have been one of those Shelby/American "let's try it" things.
They want 225K, and I hope they get it.
225K price which I also hope he gets aside ,FYI the hood prop rod was already tried in 65 Shelby production before they solved the spring /support problem. SA research and development of what works and what doesn't in 1965 production is more reason to conclude that SA didn't go backwards in development 2 production years later for 67.
Yes, best of luck with the sale.
It's amazing how information can be outdated so quickly.
I forget, is that the correct rocker stripe configuration?
Quote from: Coralsnake on October 19, 2020, 02:04:59 PM
Yes, best of luck with the sale.
It's amazing how information can be outdated so quickly.
I forget, is that the correct rocker stripe configuration?
It's not... easy to fix
Hi Guys,
I am the one representing the sale of #20 for my good friend, who now in his late 70s has decided to trim back his Shelby collection a bit.
In any event, as for the much maligned Falcon prop rod I can't say who installed it or when. It always seemed silly to me but the debate on this item on these early 2-digit factory show cars predates time it seems lol. Could it be part of a show car thing for added safety that the hood wouldn't fall? Again, I don't know and if nobody has a definitive answer 53 years later we may never have one. I do know it has been on #20 for at least 20 years so didn't have the heart to remove it. Of course, one cotter pin and poof it is gone if one desires.
Rocker stripes: When I originally bought the car in 2007 through Curt at Cobra Auto it had '66 style side stripes. It was explained that they went along with the other '66 "early" features like the smooth '66 seat covers. When my friend had my shop re-paint the car in 2014 to remove the incorrect LeMans stripes (my pet peeve) the decision was made to put '66 style rocker stripes back on. But, if the buyer wants '67 style ones I have a hair dryer and a stripe kit handy and will happily swap them out no charge. No paint will be required, just a quick re-do of the center of the front fender stripes.
I know it is just my opinion, and that and five bucks will get a curbside pickup cup of Starbucks, but I think #20 is a very special car. It is a unique early car with a great history, has all of the right bits, original tag, engine, etc. and a great deal of money has been spent making it run and drive as good as any old Mustang can.
As always I appreciate the wealth of knowledge and lively discussions here so thanks!
Sincerely,
Colin
I'm curious. Was that car (#0020) displayed at MCACN just a few years back?
Quote from: csx289 on October 19, 2020, 04:33:55 PM
Hi Guys,
I am the one representing the sale of #20 for my good friend, who now in his late 70s has decided to trim back his Shelby collection a bit.
In any event, as for the much maligned Falcon prop rod I can't say who installed it or when. It always seemed silly to me but the debate on this item on these early 2-digit factory show cars predates time it seems lol. Could it be part of a show car thing for added safety that the hood wouldn't fall? Again, I don't know and if nobody has a definitive answer 53 years later we may never have one. I do know it has been on #20 for at least 20 years so didn't have the heart to remove it. Of course, one cotter pin and poof it is gone if one desires.
Rocker stripes: When I originally bought the car in 2007 through Curt at Cobra Auto it had '66 style side stripes. It was explained that they went along with the other '66 "early" features like the smooth '66 seat covers. When my friend had my shop re-paint the car in 2014 to remove the incorrect LeMans stripes (my pet peeve) the decision was made to put '66 style rocker stripes back on. But, if the buyer wants '67 style ones I have a hair dryer and a stripe kit handy and will happily swap them out no charge. No paint will be required, just a quick re-do of the center of the front fender stripes.
I know it is just my opinion, and that and five bucks will get a curbside pickup cup of Starbucks, but I think #20 is a very special car. It is a unique early car with a great history, has all of the right bits, original tag, engine, etc. and a great deal of money has been spent making it run and drive as good as any old Mustang can.
As always I appreciate the wealth of knowledge and lively discussions here so thanks!
Sincerely,
Colin
I know you are trying to sell a car . . . but a what a nice, thoughtful post and approach to the items that seemed to concern people. Well done! John Dillman
Hi roddster yes I had 0020 at MCACN previously- I'm one of the owners of the show and have assembled the "Shelby Snakepit" display a few times over the years. #20 was also at SAAC 39 at Road America with our stable in 2014 where Chuck Cantwell signed it and also took it for a drive. That was fun.
And JohnHouston thank you. These are just cars and we are all in this hobby to have fun so I always find it best to have conversations rather than try to start wars. After all every member on this site is here because of our shared enthusiasm for Shelby American. Having a spirited "picking the fly shit out of the pepper" (as Kopec says) debate is par for the course when you get this much knowledge and passion in one place. All part of the fun!
Sincerely,
Colin
I wanted to chime in also that i meant no disrespect pointing out a couple items on the car. I continue to learn about the hundreds of differences and changes througjout to 1967 Mustang/Shelby year model. I do hope you get your price!
rmarble57 no disrespect taken at all. I appreciate all opinions in these public forums even if some are quite misguided lol. As for the price I can assure you 0020 sold for a LOT more the last time and a great deal of money has been spent on it since but the owner is realistic. If a NOM non-two digit car restored by Orlando brings 165k on BaT, #0002 brought $264k at Mecum, and it is reported 0018 sold for $235k not to mention some other "eye opening" sales on lesser cars at Mecum et al I think the price on 0020 is appropriate. Once it is sold it might be a long, long time before another two-digit PR/Show car hits the open market. I've had a lot of activity of a car and there are some ongoing discussions so I feel fairly confident that it will find a new home. I know I'll be sad to see it go, if I didn't have my '67 GT500 (1797) that I love so much I'd buy 0020 for my own collection but I am told one '67 is enough- and I really do enjoy sleeping indoors. :D
I've owned (9) double digit 67 GT 350's.
Your price is reasonable ....
Bret
Does the prop rod hook to something when it's in the down mode? You mentioned a cotter pin, I assume that holding it in place on the hinge end?
Is this the original engine, trans, and rear diff section to the car?
Hi rcgt350 yes it is the original numbers matching engine and drivetrain. The hood prop lays nicely between the hood pin and core support when not in use. Yes, the cotter pin I referenced is what holds it in the core support.
Lots of info and video at this link:
https://colinsclassicauto.com/inventory/1967-shelby-gt350-serial-0020-factory-show-car/ (https://colinsclassicauto.com/inventory/1967-shelby-gt350-serial-0020-factory-show-car/)
If you need anything else you can email me at comer.colin@gmail.com and I'm happy to help.
Sincerely,
Colin
Frankly, if I'm a buyer, I could give two shits about the hood prop-correct or not. Yes, it's a nice topic of conversation for the purists. The rest of the car looks solid. Isn't it as simple as this-the more the car fetches, the better for all of us who own them. I owned, restored and sold a very correct (and lower) double digit car a few years back. This car won't last long at the asking price-imo.
Thanks Colin, I should have read closer on the drive train info too. I'm not a buyer as I already own 0031, just like to keep up on the early builds.
Many thanks.
Quick question, why would a two digit 67 gt350 have more value then three, four digit car? I understand the earlier cars had inboards and the roof scoop lights but what would make them more desirable? On the 66 carryover cars I understand the draw - they are unsold 65's, so what's the draw on a two digit 67 ? since the entire production run was all made in the same place with the same SJ supplied cars?
P.S. not trying to start a fight I just want to understand the interest.
IMHO, the allure of an early '67 car lies simply in its' uniqueness compared to later cars. You either like the differences and celebrate them or it doesn't matter. The selling prices of 67's as of late have been scattered from a driver quality at $160k to a nicer example at $195k last week as well as a color change at $135 also last week.
Some people put value in "Concours", some in "Driveability", some in "Speed", some in "Beauty", some in "Mine's Different".
To each his own.
Quote from: 427hunter on October 21, 2020, 11:46:42 AM
Quick question, why would a two digit 67 gt350 have more value then three, four digit car? I understand the earlier cars had inboards and the roof scoop lights but what would make them more desirable? On the 66 carryover cars I understand the draw - they are unsold 65's, so what's the draw on a two digit 67 ? since the entire production run was all made in the same place with the same SJ supplied cars?
P.S. not trying to start a fight I just want to understand the interest.
Great question. Having owned an early double digit 67 and now a 66 Carryover, I can share a view on both.
The entire 67 model year went through a number of running changes (JD has put together a great document that captures all, if not most, of these changes). What's especially unique to the early 67s are parts for which have not been reproduced (outside of a one-off situation): i.e.; the one piece slant grill. These unique (often times rarely used) parts make these 67s (IMO) extremely attractive.
As far as 66 Carryovers: contrary to what has been expressed in the past, these cars were not unsold 65s. In short, they were a batch of 252 1965 HiPo Mustangs ordered to allow 1966 Shelby GT350 production to continue with our a break, given the shutdown for retooling required by Ford. Chuck Cantwell's book and the www.carryovergt350.com website will do much better justice in explaining these cars and the changes they represent from non-Carryover 66s.
I hope this helps!
Nice synopsis Ruben,
I wouldn't want to pay a premium for a carryover or a 2-digit '67, but I get it.
I was willing to pay a premium to have a Nightmist, 4-speed inboard car tho lucky for me, that premium was smaller at the time.
Quote from: rmarble57 on October 21, 2020, 12:09:15 PM
Some people put value in "Concours", some in "Driveability", some in "Speed", some in "Beauty", some in "Mine's Different".
To each his own.
I would add another category to your list of values, originality. An unrestored, never taken apart car can be very highly prized by some.
Well noted, and you are correct. My bad for the omission.
Quote from: 2112 on October 21, 2020, 04:20:06 PM
Nice synopsis Ruben,
I wouldn't want to pay a premium for a carryover or a 2-digit '67, but I get it.
I was willing to pay a premium to have a Nightmist, 4-speed inboard car tho lucky for me, that premium was smaller at the time.
Now this I understand ! To me the "Morrison" look (ha ha) was the best of the bunch...
Random thoughts on the subject:
As with anything it all boils down to personal preference and the collecting goals of the person writing the check. I've been collecting cars for three decades now, and went through my own learning curve of deciding what matters to me and the kind of cars I want to own. I like original unrestored cars, cars with great history, and cars I enjoy driving. Case in point- I had an amazing unrestored '69 Boss 429 for years. Amazing docs and history, a true no BS car. Spent a ton of time making it run right and getting it fully sorted to drive as good as any B9 could drive. But in the end it just sat here because even the best B9 still drives like a dump truck compared to a '65 GT350. So I sold it with the realization that I don't need static display cars. The same reason I sold the ex-Timken KR that Scott Tiemann restored with all NOS parts. It was, at the time, a benchmark restoration. But man I got tired of pushing a car with no fluids in it around my garage. It had to go.
Now I have a collection of cars that all speak to me, great stories, colors I like, rare or unique features (like my narrow hip 427 or original paint '66 GT350 with 14" steel wheels etc) and we drive the heck out of all of them. Sure they madden the purists when they see radial tires or a Napa fuel pump or better mufflers but I have shelves full of the correct original parts and hardware that my family can bolt back on prior to the estate sale lol.
On the other end of the spectrum some shop to a budget and don't care about a color change (lime gold to red for example) or a NOM or a trans swap because they want a cool looking Shelby to have fun with. I totally respect that too. It is still a seat at this great table and the experience is no less exciting.
And, some want perfect shiny restored cars to polish, trailer, show, polish, store, polish, cover, polish, put NOS air into the tires, polish.... ok I'm teasing but you get the point.
Some buy by strictly color and options and I get that too.
Some would never consider an original unrestored car, like my ex-Dave Matthews 67 GT350 #3002, and would rather have a Moss Green 67 like the one that sold for $165k on BaT because it shinier and doesn't show any patina whereas 3002 is one of my favorite '67s.
I had 67 #888, a nightmist blue/ parchment 4 speed GT500. A great one owner car restored to perfection. That car got me because of the color and history but a good friend talked my out of it 13 years ago and still owns it (the bastard! And I know he's reading this too- bastard!)
So in summary to answer the question some (like me) appreciate the uniqueness of a super early two-digit car like 0020, the value of its history, the value of having these great original parts surviving time and the fact it never lost its original engine, etc. There are a lot of things that set it apart and these are the things a lot of seasoned (note I didn't say "old" lol) collectors value now that they have fine tuned their collections to have truly unique and rare examples of these halo cars. That's the kind of collection 0020 is coming out of, the owner is a 35 year Pebble Beach judge who has everything from pre-war Silver Ghosts to a new S550 GT350. And he drives them all. But as somebody who knows what a good collection consists of he's always sought out special cars. Wheat vs. chaff as it may be.
That's the cool thing about cars. One car decide what they like and do what speaks to and pleases their own old car goals. And in the end this hobby is still the great equalizer, doesn't matter if you're a grease monkey like me or a multi-billionaire, we all love these things and can relate to each others passion for them no matter what it may be focused on.
Long, meaningless ramble over ;)
All the best,
Colin
Well stated. Thank you
Not meaningless. Just a statement of the true diversity of the hobby we all so love. There is room enough in it for all of us regardless of taste.
Quote from: S7MS427 on October 22, 2020, 12:36:44 PM
Not meaningless. Just a statement of the true diversity of the hobby we all so love. There is room enough in it for all of us regardless of taste.
Also very well said. :)
Quote from: csx289 on October 22, 2020, 09:54:54 AM
Random thoughts on the subject:
As with anything it all boils down to personal preference and the collecting goals of the person writing the check. I've been collecting cars for three decades now, and went through my own learning curve of deciding what matters to me and the kind of cars I want to own. I like original unrestored cars, cars with great history, and cars I enjoy driving. Case in point- I had an amazing unrestored '69 Boss 429 for years. Amazing docs and history, a true no BS car. Spent a ton of time making it run right and getting it fully sorted to drive as good as any B9 could drive. But in the end it just sat here because even the best B9 still drives like a dump truck compared to a '65 GT350. So I sold it with the realization that I don't need static display cars. The same reason I sold the ex-Timken KR that Scott Tiemann restored with all NOS parts. It was, at the time, a benchmark restoration. But man I got tired of pushing a car with no fluids in it around my garage. It had to go.
Now I have a collection of cars that all speak to me, great stories, colors I like, rare or unique features (like my narrow hip 427 or original paint '66 GT350 with 14" steel wheels etc) and we drive the heck out of all of them. Sure they madden the purists when they see radial tires or a Napa fuel pump or better mufflers but I have shelves full of the correct original parts and hardware that my family can bolt back on prior to the estate sale lol.
On the other end of the spectrum some shop to a budget and don't care about a color change (lime gold to red for example) or a NOM or a trans swap because they want a cool looking Shelby to have fun with. I totally respect that too. It is still a seat at this great table and the experience is no less exciting.
And, some want perfect shiny restored cars to polish, trailer, show, polish, store, polish, cover, polish, put NOS air into the tires, polish.... ok I'm teasing but you get the point.
Some buy by strictly color and options and I get that too.
Some would never consider an original unrestored car, like my ex-Dave Matthews 67 GT350 #3002, and would rather have a Moss Green 67 like the one that sold for $165k on BaT because it shinier and doesn't show any patina whereas 3002 is one of my favorite '67s.
I had 67 #888, a nightmist blue/ parchment 4 speed GT500. A great one owner car restored to perfection. That car got me because of the color and history but a good friend talked my out of it 13 years ago and still owns it (the bastard! And I know he's reading this too- bastard!)
So in summary to answer the question some (like me) appreciate the uniqueness of a super early two-digit car like 0020, the value of its history, the value of having these great original parts surviving time and the fact it never lost its original engine, etc. There are a lot of things that set it apart and these are the things a lot of seasoned (note I didn't say "old" lol) collectors value now that they have fine tuned their collections to have truly unique and rare examples of these halo cars. That's the kind of collection 0020 is coming out of, the owner is a 35 year Pebble Beach judge who has everything from pre-war Silver Ghosts to a new S550 GT350. And he drives them all. But as somebody who knows what a good collection consists of he's always sought out special cars. Wheat vs. chaff as it may be.
That's the cool thing about cars. One car decide what they like and do what speaks to and pleases their own old car goals. And in the end this hobby is still the great equalizer, doesn't matter if you're a grease monkey like me or a multi-billionaire, we all love these things and can relate to each others passion for them no matter what it may be focused on.
Long, meaningless ramble over ;)
All the best,
Colin
There is a lot of wisdom in this post Colin, thank you. I totally burst out laughing at the dump truck comment LOL
The dump truck thing reminded me of my '56 vette on tires so ancient I can't believe they still hold air . . .it looks great but drives like a very fast tractor.
jpd