Helping a friend trying to verify the status of #1669 (Gulfstream Aqua, 500 Conv.). Last known owner per the 2013 Registry was Charlie McArthur (also the original owner) of NY. A Marti Report bearing that vin surfaced in 2018/2019 in connection with a similar car that was seized (and subsequently auctioned by Mecum) by the State of OK as part of a cloning operation. The '69/'70 Registrar has been very helpful but my friend would like to dig a bit deeper. Thx.
You might want to do some searches for Shawnee, Oklahoma clones on this forum and google.
We already have quite a bit of paperwork from the State in our possession. At the time of seizure, the State removed all of the identifying features. The car was then sent to auction and "spec'd" with the aforementioned Marti Report. In fact, the Marti Report connected with the 2019 auction and currently in our possession was stamped by the State as follows: "The information given to the auction company on this car is that it is spec'd out as this VIN (meaning car #1669). See the copy of the State site for actual (underlined) VIN as assigned by the State of Oklahoma." So, how and why was the auctioned vehicle assigned that particular Marti Report and under whose authority? That aside, the easier way to solve things would be for the real owner of 1669 or someone with reliable info. on the car's current status/whereabouts to step forward-since the State of Ok seemed unwilling and likely disinterested in doing so when they had the opportunity.
So, if I understand correctly, the task now is to prove your friend has the "real" car after the State of Oklahoma reassigned a State VIN to this vehicle?
Early on the FBI was investigating the Shawnee operation and cars. You might try them; probably their OK City office?
Quote from: Survivor on November 13, 2020, 01:49:28 PM
.......................-since the State of Ok seemed unwilling and likely disinterested in doing so when they had the opportunity.
Been involved with a few of these and it's not normally the task for the State or local authority to prove where the "real" car is but instead only make a determination on the car they have. Often a pretty easy choice for some - punch/remove the numbers present and start over with a new VIN. Vehicle can then be given back to the owner, used, sold and licensed. Better than the alternative ::)
QuoteSo, how and why was the auctioned vehicle assigned that particular Marti Report and under whose authority?
Marti reports are not assigned to vehicles and they are not legal documents. They are a record of how a particular car was built by Ford. You cant prove the report belongs to a particular chassis unless the car is unmolested. Anyone can order any report and put it next to any vehicle they like.
Quote from: Coralsnake on November 13, 2020, 08:52:41 PM
QuoteSo, how and why was the auctioned vehicle assigned that particular Marti Report and under whose authority?
Marti reports are not assigned to vehicles and they are not legal documents. They are a record of how a particular car was built by Ford. You cant prove the report belongs to a particular chassis unless the car is unmolested. Anyone can order any report and put it next to any vehicle they like.
For '67's I believe that you need both the SAI and Ford VIN which makes it a bit more challenging to get the report.
Quote from: 2112 on November 13, 2020, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: Coralsnake on November 13, 2020, 08:52:41 PM
QuoteSo, how and why was the auctioned vehicle assigned that particular Marti Report and under whose authority?
Marti reports are not assigned to vehicles and they are not legal documents. They are a record of how a particular car was built by Ford. You cant prove the report belongs to a particular chassis unless the car is unmolested. Anyone can order any report and put it next to any vehicle they like.
For '67's I believe that you need both the SAI and Ford VIN which makes it a bit more challenging to get the report.
For 65,66 and 67 you need both the Shelby VIN and the hidden Ford VIN . For 68,69 and 70 all you need is the Ford vin . As long as it is in line with what is typical for a Shelby and nothing that looks made up ,out of sequence ,etc Marti will provide a report. People request Marti reports for 68-70 Shelby's all of the time to verify options etc.prior to purchase for example.FYI the same info can be found in the SAAC registry.Of course it is not typically broken done into 1 of 5 or 1 of 1 statistics like in a Marti,
Back to this car
If it were the real # 1669, there would be no need for the State of Oklahoma to issue a new VIN, right?
I think Mr Gaines calls that Occams Razor theory?
The Marti report is really not relevant.
Gotta jump in here...
I inspected the car and I'm sure it's a real car.
However, because it was discovered at the shop the State of Oklahoma was convinced everything at the shop was suspect.
I believe they did a disservice by assuming every car at the facility was a "clone" or was being built illegally.
At that time they just assumed "guilt by association".
If someone raided a shop that was selling fake Van Gogh's shouldn't they make sure there weren't real Van Gogh's before they destroyed everything?
I would think because there's history on the car up to 2013 it would be somewhat important to contact Mr. 2013 and see if he sold the vehicle and if by chance to a shop or buyer in Oklahoma.
Or he could say the car is sitting in his garage and I could be 100% wrong.
Just my .02...
Bret
While that is a possibility and I do not question your capabilities, if the original identication numbers are destroyed, that diminishes the value considerably.
It doesnt matter who did it.
I know of a 1968 KR that was stolen and stripped of the numbers, but the current owner cant prove its the original car.
I hope this can get straightened out.
Quote from: Coralsnake on November 14, 2020, 09:45:40 AM
While that is a possibility and I do not question your capabilities, if the original identication numbers are destroyed, that diminishes the value considerably.
It doesnt matter who did it.
I know of a 1968 KR that was stolen and stripped of the numbers, but the current owner cant prove its the original car.
I hope this can get straightened out.
Agreed!
I think this vehicle's history will follow it around for a very long time.....
I have some experience on the "state" side of these investigations. (not Oklahoma)
While I can't speak to what the Oklahoma authorities did or didn't do, generally, anytime the identity of a vehicle is in question a VIN verification will be done to attempt to match the "public" (dash/door) VIN(s) to the "hidden" VIN(s) (or VIN derivatives) on the engine, transmission, and at various other locations on the vehicle. This would be in addition to examining title and registration records, production and sales records, interviewing people involved, potential owner(s), dealers, etc. Generally, an attempt would be made to gather any information possible that could help in establishing the true identity and owner of the vehicle.
If the VIN can be verified, and the legal owner can be established, the vehicle is generally returned to them. (Unless they are the person involved in illegal activity). If a legal owner cannot be identified, the vehicle may be auctioned.
If a VIN cannot be verified, anyone eventually awarded ownership of the vehicle would be required to apply for a state issued VIN before a title and/or registration would be issued. it is not unusual for civil claims to be brought regardless of the outcome of an investigation when high-value vehicles are involved. Generally, the vehicle would remain impounded until those claims are settled.
If the VIN and/or ownership cannot be established, it is also possible that the vehicle could be destroyed. This is uncommon, often requires a court order, and is unlikely for a high value vehicle like a Shelby.
I've never heard of a state agency removing "identifying features". I'm not sure if this means Shelby specific parts or actually removing hidden VIN(s). Again, I'm not sure what Oklahoma law says, but this would seem to me to be difficult, time consuming, and in some respects, unnecessary.
The best outcome for a VIN investigation is when the vehicle at hand can be identified as well as the "real" vehicle if that is the situation, Sometimes that is possible, sometimes it is not.
Something to consider is the general focus of this sort of investigation is to identify the vehicle(s) involved, return any vehicles to their legal owners, and ensure there is not more than one vehicle with a particular VIN. The value of the vehicles generally isn't of concern to investigators other than how it might affect potential charges. While a Marti report can be helpful in identifying a vehicle, it is not, in and of itself, a "legal" document. My experience has been that most auto theft/fraud investigators are "car guys" themselves and enjoy their work, especially when it comes to something like a Shelby.
Just my unsolicited two cents, so take it for what it's worth. :)
Quote from: 5566 on November 14, 2020, 05:21:24 PM
....I've never heard of a state agency removing "identifying features". I'm not sure if this means Shelby specific parts or actually removing hidden VIN(s). Again, I'm not sure what Oklahoma law says, but this would seem to me to be difficult, time consuming, and in some respects, unnecessary. ....
Just in sharing and adding to the discussion have seen and know of over a dozen Mustangs and Shelbys were the VIN was removed from the unibody over the years in Calif. Can't say currently what different countries or cities may be doing specifically. Example below shows (sorry for the old poorly focused/scanned picture) of the original/restamped VIN was drilled out and the state assigned VIN tag attached. Not to suggest that all states and agencies would follow the same practice or not
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/14/6-141120175244.jpeg)
Easy solution post the ford inner fender vins - if you don't have the factory vins - you don't have anyway to prove the car is real.
Jeff,
Thanks for the pic. Now that I see that, I recall hearing about it, though I'd never seen it before. I'll also admit I was thinking about newer vehicles, with numerous hidden VINs/derivatives, as opposed to older ones, when I made my comment. Thanks again for the info!
Quote from: 5566 on November 14, 2020, 09:43:19 PM
Jeff,
Thanks for the pic. Now that I see that, I recall hearing about it, though I'd never seen it before. I'll also admit I was thinking about newer vehicles, with numerous hidden VINs/derivatives, as opposed to older ones, when I made my comment. Thanks again for the info!
Yes unfortunate case. Car was suppose to be a loaded K code GT convertible and that started the discussion and process down the rabbit hole :(
This is the car we are discussing?
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=12661.0
That's the car.
The owner is just now realizing why he got such a "good deal"
Quote from: Coralsnake on November 15, 2020, 11:21:12 AM
That's the car.
The owner is just now realizing why he got such a "good deal"
As usual you are 100% correct! There really are not "deals" on good Shelby's - "A deal" on a Shelby usually means the car has a lot wrong with it and needs restoration - "A good deal" usually means it's a fake ;D
Old news, but the DA says they are "mostly original cars" (I believe referring to the cars as a group, not one specific car) to be auctioned:
https://www.newson6.com/story/5e345de93196993fcfd0567a/pottawatomie-county-auctions-off-classic-mustangs
And the county sheriff files for an emergency induction, which is denied after a three hour hearing, to prevent the auction, in order to "allow time to investigate whether the cloned Vehicle Identification Numbers had been properly removed as claimed"
https://www.news-star.com/story/news/courts/2020/02/07/injunction-denied-auction-of-five-tributecloned-ford-mustangs-to-proceed-feb-8-in-shawnee/111783792/
Really strange.......
Quote from: 5566 on November 15, 2020, 07:49:28 PM
Old news, but the DA says they are "mostly original cars" (I believe referring to the cars as a group, not one specific car) to be auctioned:
Not sure if a DA in Pottawatomie County is qualified to testify as to what a "mostly original car" would be ::) Sure he meant well
From his statement in the article, I think what the DA meant was they were mostly "real" cars as opposed to clones or fakes.
This is interesting in that seized cars that are auctioned off usually don't bring a lot of money. Sometimes the agency auctioning them off barely breaks even between what they make and what it costs to auction them. These are different. The DA's office, as well as whatever LE agencies were involved, most likely made a decent amount of money, even more if the cars were real.
Unfortunately, it's quite possible that a real car could end up with a state issued VIN, and the decrease in value that comes with it. In some states, once a VIN plate is removed, the law requires a state issued VIN be affixed, regardless of the authenticity of the vehicle. I haven't been able to find that stated in Oklahoma law, though what I have found seems to lead in that direction.
Whew, talk about going down the rabbit hole! :)
Circling back on this. The 2013 Registry notes the then known owner and his whereabouts. Perhaps the Registrar could chime in and if known, share any current information/updates so that we put this matter to rest in advance of the new Registry and w/o the need for an exhaustive and likely unproductive investigation with the Ok authorities.
Quote from: Survivor on November 25, 2020, 10:15:48 AM
Circling back on this. The 2013 Registry notes the then known owner and his whereabouts. Perhaps the Registrar could chime in and if known, share any current information/updates so that we]put this matter to rest in advance of the new Registry and w/o the need for an exhaustive and likely unproductive investigation with the Ok authorities.
It would probably be prudent if "we" contact the 69/70 registrar instead of the other way around. He may not have seen this post. They stand by to help but given that they volunteer their service. It is a little presumptuous to expect that the particular registrar to watch every single post on this forum on the off chance that someone might need their assistance in some capacity .
https://oklahoman.com/article/5653835/plans-to-auction-off-counterfeit-mustangs-creates-furor
Does any one known when the new 1969/1970 book is coming out? thanks matt
2022 is a good guess
Thank you