For an early Carryover
Can anyone provide information on the hardware used to install the traction bars, both the types of hardware and the orientation? Thanks much
Rob
picture sent to the Cove ;)
Straight bars , generic grade 5 bolts fine thread, the bolt to the axle housing was not "shaved" on the three I owned.
Randy
I have #689 with dog legged bars. Are the bolts supposed to be fine thread or course thread. Thank you.
As always, the folks on this site are great! Thanks much!
Rob
Quote from: hertzz350 on January 07, 2021, 12:16:53 PM
I have #689 with dog legged bars. Are the bolts supposed to be fine thread or course thread. Thank you.
477 has dog leg bars bars , rubber boots (only) and fine thread bolts. I have "one" spare kinked bar if anyone needs one.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on January 08, 2021, 10:49:35 AM
Quote from: hertzz350 on January 07, 2021, 12:16:53 PM
I have #689 with dog legged bars. Are the bolts supposed to be fine thread or course thread. Thank you.
477 has straight bars , rubber boots (only) and fine thread bolts. I have "one" spare kinked bar if anyone needs one.
Randy
Randy,
I hate to question you about this after you've owned you car for so many years and know it so well, but would you please double check on the traction bars?
I started tracking those a few years back. Every car I have from 6S253 down has straight bars. Every car I have from 6S269 up has kinked bars. And your 477 is on that list as having kinked bars. The problem is that any car on that list could have been misreported. I noted the source of the data on some of the cars, but unfortunately did not do that for 477. So I have no idea who reported your car as having kinked bars.
In any case, would you confirm 477 for me? I'll update my list with what you provide. It's an ongoing research project and I'm always happy to correct errors or get new data.
If you're interested I have these cars near 477:
452
463
476
480
524
550
554
585
All those have been reported to have kinked, over-ride traction bars.
Thanks,
Steve
Update on 01-18-21. Randy (gt350hr) checked on his 6S477 and it has dog leg traction bars. He changed his reply #7 accordingly. Special thanks to Randy for taking the time and making the extra effort to follow up on this.
I will do that for sure. It ''should" be the same as 476 as we both have '65 axle housings too. I will check tomorrow for sure. The housing was out of the car "once" but the bars stayed in.
Steve , do you have any notes on others with the '65 housing? I recall others with the '65 housing? I know from past conversations with some of the other ( besides mine and 476) 16 white with blue side stripe Hertz cars that had the '65 housing and thought it was wrong. 454 was a black - 4 speed and had the 66 housing. 480 is a blue , non Hertz and has a '66 housing.
I have seen both in person as they were both owned by local friends.
Randy
Randy,
All the carryovers I'm aware of have the 65 style axle housing.
Here's what I have in my notes about the later cars. I've added *** by the 65's to make them easier to spot.
Car Axle Housing Style
253 66
280 66
285 66
292 66
296 65 ***
324 65 ***
359 66
402 66
407 66
454 66 (per your new info)
476 65 ***
477 65 ***
480 66 (per your new info)
488 66
520 66
524 65 ***
554 66
587 65 ***
701 66
705 66
711 66
754 66
762 66
817 66
853 66
907 66
914 66
1134 66
1761 66
2020 66
2191 66
2227 66
As always, this data may have errors. I did not keep track of the source on most of these. And even if I had, some people simply report incorrect info for a variety of reasons. So take all the above with a grain of salt.
Steve
(Modified on 1/13/21 to add cars 296, 817, 853, 1134)
(Modified on 1/14/21 to add cars 711, 2227)
Thanks Steve!
It would be interesting to see what the Ford vins are because we all know the cars weren't built sequentially at SAI. At this point it looks like above 600 is all '66 housings. I too had seen cars before mine with '66 housings and wondered about mine until I heard of others with '65 housings. With the over ride bars it's not like they were "switched" by anyone. Your record keeping agrees.
I forgot to look at my bars yesterday and will remember to do that when I get home tonight.
Randy
Isn't this fun? There's always something new to learn about these car.
I await the info on your traction bars.
Steve
For those of us that are not familiar with the difference between '65 and 66' housings, if someone could post a picture or pictures, that would be helpful.
Greek
One on the bottom is 65.
Quote from: greekz on January 12, 2021, 04:49:41 PM
For those of us that are not familiar with the difference between '65 and 66' housings, if someone could post a picture or pictures, that would be helpful.
Greek
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 12, 2021, 05:06:01 PM
One on the bottom is 65.
Thanks both of you!
6S296 has a '65 housing
Quote from: TJinSA on January 12, 2021, 09:33:23 PM
6S296 has a '65 housing
Thanks, Tim. I added that to my list in Reply #8.
Steve
6S1134 has a '66 housing and is an early February '66 build at SJ. If this helps your list.
Greek
853 has a 66 housing and dog leg (kinked) over-rides.
FWIW, 6S817 has a '66 type housing and over ride bars. I haven't had the inner panels out in about seven years so I don't know if I have dog legs there or not. I'll have to look for pictures.
All the above cars added to the list in reply #8.
Steve
Can straight and dog-legged bars be differentiated from under the car?
Quote from: TJinSA on January 13, 2021, 06:11:45 PM
Can straight and dog-legged bars be differentiated from under the car?
Yes, the "dogleg" can be viewed from the underside. It's approximately below the frame rail dog-legging into the wheel well before it enters the slot/hole into the interior above the forward part of the leaf spring.
Obviously, the straight bar is in the same location, just without the dog leg.
Cheers
~Earl J
I'd vote more for T bars sitting on the shelf with newer (kinked) ones being put in front when they came in rather than Ford serial number build order being the reason. For that to be the case cars would have been assembled and stored randomly then drug out and having the Shelby tag put on.
For the housing the Ford numbers could be the indicator between housing dates or even that Ford was using up housings as they dug deeper into their parts pile. Was there a period where regular 66 K Mustangs got 65 housings early in their build cycle?
843 has the kink
6S711 has a 66 housing with kinked bars .
On 6S521 has dog leg override. Shaved fine thread bolts on the rear axle. The bolts on the floor mounted brackets were missing alone with the brackets that were ripped out of the floor. I purchased new brackets that came with Course threaded bolts.
Thanks to all who are contributing info here. I'm trying to keep reply #8 updated with new reports of axle housing types. And I'm keeping track of the straight/kinked traction bars being reported, but haven't put together a good list for posting here yet.
Steve
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on January 13, 2021, 06:35:47 PM
I'd vote more for T bars sitting on the shelf with newer (kinked) ones being put in front when they came in rather than Ford serial number build order being the reason. For that to be the case cars would have been assembled and stored randomly then drug out and having the Shelby tag put on.
For the housing the Ford numbers could be the indicator between housing dates or even that Ford was using up housings as they dug deeper into their parts pile. Was there a period where regular 66 K Mustangs got 65 housings early in their build cycle?
The bars were delivered in "bindles" (pallets with card board sides) , not individual boxes. Straight bars were used up from the initial order placed for '65 production and over the counter "kits". Obviously the "second generation" bars ( probably 1,000-1,500 bars) were at the request of SAI and the "why" would be a great question for Chuck Cantwell. SAI was TMs biggest customer by far and only OEM . They also made the Monte Carlo bars.
Randy
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on January 13, 2021, 06:35:47 PM
I'd vote more for T bars sitting on the shelf with newer (kinked) ones being put in front when they came in rather than Ford serial number build order being the reason. For that to be the case cars would have been assembled and stored randomly then drug out and having the Shelby tag put on.
For the housing the Ford numbers could be the indicator between housing dates or even that Ford was using up housings as they dug deeper into their parts pile. Was there a period where regular 66 K Mustangs got 65 housings early in their build cycle?
Looking at the photos of LAX GT350 production it appears they used a similar process as San Jose would, a pallet/crate/crib of parts arrives, a HiLo used to unload the truck and it's dropped along side the assembly line, parts are pulled until the pallet/crate/crib is empty and the next shipment is brought in and placed alongside, once the 1st batch is exhausted, they begin pulling parts from batch#2.
This is the most timesaving / economical method in a manual assembly process.
Still widely seen in non-automated production environments even today.
IMHO
jim p
That's how I saw it Jim.
1966, #818 overrides, Hertz
#689 Hertz dog legged traction bars with rubber pads over traction bars, no boots. When did they switch from rubber pads to boots on traction bars? I restored #731 years ago and it had boots on traction bars.
477 has boots.
Quote from: hertzz350 on January 25, 2021, 06:35:48 AM
#689 Hertz dog legged traction bars with rubber pads over traction bars, no boots. When did they switch from rubber pads to boots on traction bars? I restored #731 years ago and it had boots on traction bars.
This is not comprehensive by any means, but it's what I've gathered over the years.
As far as I can tell, all the carryovers got seals made from inner tube rubber with a slit in it, covered up by fiberglass boxes. With the possible exception of the 4 factory drag race cars. I don't have good data on them.
After that:
253 – fiberglass boxes
269 – rubber boots
280 – rubber boots
285 – rubber boots
341 – rubber boots
389 – rubber boots
429 – rubber boots
477 – rubber boots
521 – rubber boots
550 – rubber boots
554 – rubber boots
584 – rubber boots
671 – rubber boots
689 – "rubber pads"
725 – rubber boots
731 – rubber boots
744 – fiberglass boxes
754 – rubber boots
796 – rubber boots
914 – fiberglass boxes
As always, the info for each car above could be wrong. I just documented what I was told or happened to find reported – sometimes here on the forum under other topics.
I know that listing "fiberglass boxes" without mentioning what was under them is not optimum, but that's what I've got so that's what I put on this list.
I'm guessing Jeff Speegle has more and better data on this topic. Maybe he'll chime in.
Steve
Note: Modified on 1/26/21 to add car 550
Note: Modified on 2/02/21 to add car 521
Note: Modified on 2/04/21 to add car 725
550 has rubber boots Ron
Forgot to mention: #689 does have the fiberglass covers covering the pieces of rubber seal.
6S521 has boots.
Quote from: SFM6S087 on January 25, 2021, 01:54:11 PM
With the possible exception of the 4 factory drag race cars. I don't have good data on them.
Factory drag cars had 2 options. With factory traction bars or with the weld on AFX rear lift bars. 5s327 did not have the optional lift bars but the factory traction bars were made adjustable by Ritchie by cutting a section out and welding in a threaded shaft on one side and a nut to receive on the other. 6s018 had the AFX lift bars and factory bars were removed and duct tape but over the oval cutouts (yes duct tape). All 65/66 drag cars had inner tube style originally
5S360 MIA now had the weld on lift bars with the override bars removed. Axle housing brackets were still there when I saw it in '66 at Lions. I don't know about what was under the glass seat delete. It was still in place.
Quote from: TLea on February 01, 2021, 12:43:37 PM
Quote from: SFM6S087 on January 25, 2021, 01:54:11 PM
With the possible exception of the 4 factory drag race cars. I don't have good data on them.
Factory drag cars had 2 options. With factory traction bars or with the weld on AFX rear lift bars. 5s327 did not have the optional lift bars but the factory traction bars were made adjustable by Ritchie by cutting a section out and welding in a threaded shaft on one side and a nut to receive on the other. 6s018 had the AFX lift bars and factory bars were removed and duct tape but over the oval cutouts (yes duct tape). All 65/66 drag cars had inner tube style originally
Tim, did the factory drag cars get standard overrides initially, and then AFX lift bars were put in at customer request?
For 6s018, did that happen before or after delivery to first owner?
Any info on the other three 1966 drag cars?
THANKS!
Steve
Steve, as far as I know there were 2 options available on drag cars. AFX lift bars and camshaft. I don't have any evidence of this but I'm guessing when a customer purchased car he chose and Les built it to that spec. 6s018 had lift bars and cam and I have notes that purchaser (City Motors) picked it up at factory, I'm assuming that is SA not Performance Associates. 6s018 also had roll cage added and was done at Bill Stroppes shop prior to owner picking up. Not sure if Les or SA orchestrated that. I believe all the 66's got the 2 options. 011 and 021 still out there, 6s182 in landfill about 2 hours from me
Steve ,
I think I see where you are going. In other words were the drag units "pulled" from regular inventory or "purpose built" from "base cars"? My "guess" as Tim alluded to is the factory bars were "there" and if the "optional'' "lift bars" as we called them back then , were added , the factory "bar only" would be removed. If left intact the two would work against eachother because of geometry differences.
Randy
car 725 Hertz has kinked override traction bars with rubber boots.
Quote from: TLea on February 02, 2021, 12:46:55 PM
Steve, as far as I know there were 2 options available on drag cars. AFX lift bars and camshaft. I don't have any evidence of this but I'm guessing when a customer purchased car he chose and Les built it to that spec. 6s018 had lift bars and cam and I have notes that purchaser (City Motors) picked it up at factory, I'm assuming that is SA not Performance Associates. 6s018 also had roll cage added and was done at Bill Stroppes shop prior to owner picking up. Not sure if Les or SA orchestrated that. I believe all the 66's got the 2 options. 011 and 021 still out there, 6s182 in landfill about 2 hours from me
Tim, THANKS for the additional info!
Steve
Quote from: gt350hr on February 02, 2021, 04:58:07 PM
Steve ,
I think I see where you are going. In other words were the drag units "pulled" from regular inventory or "purpose built" from "base cars"? My "guess" as Tim alluded to is the factory bars were "there" and if the "optional'' "lift bars" as we called them back then , were added , the factory "bar only" would be removed. If left intact the two would work against eachother because of geometry differences.
Randy
Randy, once again you're reading my mind. And I appreciate your "guess" on this. Your analysis makes perfect sense. Combining what you & Tim have contributed here, it looks like the drag cars were "pulled" from inventory, then modified for drag racing. Always subject to change if we learn something new.
Steve
To add to that I believe Howard has dates they were in Les's shop. If I recall correctly the 2 we have here, 5s327 and 6s018 were converted about 2 weeks apart in the fall of 65 thinking October
What was the reason for the change from strait to kinked?
Quote from: SFM6S087 on January 09, 2021, 11:19:35 AM
Randy,
All the carryovers I'm aware of have the 65 style axle housing.
Here's what I have in my notes about the later cars. I've added *** by the 65's to make them easier to spot.
Car Axle Housing Style
253 66
280 66
285 66
292 66
296 65 ***
324 65 ***
359 66
402 66
407 66
454 66 (per your new info)
476 65 ***
477 65 ***
480 66 (per your new info)
488 66
520 66
524 65 ***
554 66
587 65 ***
701 66
705 66
711 66
754 66
762 66
817 66
853 66
907 66
914 66
1134 66
1761 66
2020 66
2191 66
2227 66
As always, this data may have errors. I did not keep track of the source on most of these. And even if I had, some people simply report incorrect info for a variety of reasons. So take all the above with a grain of salt.
Steve
(Modified on 1/13/21 to add cars 296, 817, 853, 1134)
(Modified on 1/14/21 to add cars 711, 2227)
Cars 1431 and 1855 had the 66 style yers
1966-Hertz
Number 813 has over rides