SAAC Forum

The Cars => CSX 3000 Series => Topic started by: Benny on April 09, 2021, 09:02:38 PM

Title: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Benny on April 09, 2021, 09:02:38 PM
Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 10, 2021, 01:12:07 AM
Difficult to answer. The owner of the red car may sue you because the value of his car was reduced if you called it a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or "Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra" on a public forum.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Benny on April 10, 2021, 03:14:36 AM
Hi 98SVT-was06GT, I never realised a person could get sued for asking a question & someone suggesting their honest opinion on historical information about a car? So much for history & freedom of speech however I'm very thankful for the records & notes provided by SAAC on Shelby motor vehicles & thanks for sharing your opinion, cheers.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: shelbydoug on April 10, 2021, 09:41:48 AM
Hi 98SVT-was06GT, I never realised a person could get sued for asking a question & someone suggesting their honest opinion on historical information about a car? So much for history & freedom of speech however I'm very thankful for the records & notes provided by SAAC on Shelby motor vehicles & thanks for sharing your opinion, cheers.

The Registry was sued several times for publishing known information about several cars. It has not lost any decisions that I'm aware of or needed to settle out of court YET.

There was even a website put up years ago attacking our own Cobra Registrar, the Registry and SAAC all as conspiracy theorists and libelists with SAAC having the purpose of personal vendettas.This happened even before the advent of Q. So ridiculous untrue accusations of conspiracy at SAAC are nothing new here.



Unfortunately Cobras in particular attract more grifters and wheeler dealers then any other car out of the Shelby stables.

The thing to realize is that the SAAC Registry is not accepted as a legal document so caution should prevail while considering using it as one's defense. The wise thing to do would to keep it confidential as part of your personal research on a vehicle and inquire with the specific Registrar to see if there is confidential information withheld from publication before you buy?



There are lots of things it knows about past activities of certain questionable individuals who are even SAAC members and active here that can not be spoken of publicly without the risk of a "defaming" law suit. You might be right if you spill the beans publicly or "publish" it but it's gonna' cost you a bunch in legal fees even if you prevail.

We would like to think that we can reform them to see the light but that would be too God like if you ask me?
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Benny on April 10, 2021, 04:24:11 PM
G'day Shelbydoug, I'm from Australia & 52 years of age & wasn't even born when these cars came into existence & I'm know Cobra expert. However through SAAC, becoming a member, purchasing a number of Shelby registries & joining the World Registry of Cobra website I'm learning how to identify Cobras via location stamped marks, photos & previous owners.
Without SAAC & their Shelby paperwork & other documentation, I'd have know idea how to differentiate a genuine Cobra over a great reproduction.
In short I never meant to upset anyone with my post or stir up trouble, I'll also remove the post if requested. Thank you for your response & personally I'll always rely upon SAAC & their information, cheers.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: shelbydoug on April 10, 2021, 06:52:35 PM
G'day Shelbydoug, I'm from Australia & 52 years of age & wasn't even born when these cars came into existence & I'm know Cobra expert. However through SAAC, becoming a member, purchasing a number of Shelby registries & joining the World Registry of Cobra website I'm learning how to identify Cobras via location stamped marks, photos & previous owners.
Without SAAC & their Shelby paperwork & other documentation, I'd have know idea how to differentiate a genuine Cobra over a great reproduction.
In short I never meant to upset anyone with my post or stir up trouble, I'll also remove the post if requested. Thank you for your response & personally I'll always rely upon SAAC & their information, cheers.

I don't think you've upset anyone. Certainly not me. I hope I havn't upset you. Post away.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: S7MS427 on April 10, 2021, 07:34:58 PM
I don't think you've upset anyone. Certainly not me. I hope I haven't upset you. Post away.

+1  I wouldn't worry too much about upsetting anyone.  I think anyone who gets upset over fact may be hiding something.  We're just here to share information.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Benny on April 10, 2021, 11:37:36 PM
G'day Doug & Roy, I appreciate each of your reply's & I'll keep posting away :D, cheers.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: shelbydoug on April 11, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
I think that if you, me, we are using a car like CSX3232 as an example, then there are several things to consider.

Certainly in the case of the comp cars, more then one have been completely re-created from the "remains" of the original. Many have been resold and personally I haven't heard of any "fraud" lawsuits involved.

It doesn't seem to be limited to original Comp Cobras that new purchasers accept the current existing car as they would the original and continue to race it?


So reconstructions of a twisted basket case race car seems to be more acceptable then a street car? It should also be noted that it may in fact be the SAAC Cobra Registry that coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that is constructed completely out of thin air, not even an original bolt.

Having said that, what is the acceptable level of replacement on a wreck like this? Records are attempted to be kept and the decision is up to the potential new purchaser?


It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.




When I mentioned a car to our Cobra Registrar, and it might have been this one, his reply to me was "I want you to be aware that what you are looking at is not the car that left Shelby American". I think that says a lot if not all, so anyone interested in buying an "original" Cobra has to make a determination of how satisfied they are with what the car currently is?
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 11, 2021, 12:27:20 PM
It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.
I still have some titles of cars I junked in the late 60s. We'd drive around and buy junkers for $10-15 and take them direct to the scrap metal dealer for $45. Those cars no longer exist so the titles are worthless unless someone is willing to commit a felony by stamping the VIN on another car. At that time a quirk existed in CA law. If I sold a car to a junkyard I was required to give them the title (or statement as to why I didn't have it). That title went to the state and was cancelled showing the car as junked. A scrap metal dealer was not required to obtain a title. The scrap yard was paying about $20 more per car than a junkyard. Those cars were being sent as scrap metal to Japan. If I had the title to a car and someone else had possession of the car the courts would have to figure out that one.
I know of at least one case where a person borrowed money from another SAAC member and gave them the title to their 65 GT350 as collateral. Hard times continued and he sold the car with a duplicate title he got from DMV after saying he had lost the original. In DMVs eyes the original title was now worthless as it had been replaced with a new one. It's hard to say what a court would find. The seller committed fraud. The person who loaned the money did not protect their interest by filing a lien with DMV and being listed as legal owner on the title.
The registration from Morrison's car is nothing more than a Rock and Roll or Shelby collectible. It has zero value as to the ownership of the car - only the title matters. Every year CA DMV issues new registration paperwork along with your tag. If someone was able to get into the DMV archives and check they would probably find that the Morrison car was junked. One interesting point is that CA DMV closed their doors to their historical records when it was discovered that Cobras that had been junked in the 60s and 70s were turning up with fresh MSOs and being registered as original cars. The "Air Cobra" scheme only came to light when the original owner of one of the junked cars came forward. He had purchased and still had the wreckage of his 427 Cobra that he purchased new, totaled, surrendered the title to the insurance (who notified DMV car was destroyed) and then purchased the wreckage back from the insurance company. The owner of the aircar had it seized by the CHP and after all was said and done his $250,000 investment was turned into a $50,000 kit car with a CA assigned VIN. He had no recourse since it was an all cash purchase - of course with such a small circle of Cobra buyers/restorers/sellers it was easy to figure out who had access to DMV records, who had the ability to create a Cobra from a pile of tubing and aluminum sheet and who was the logical broker for the dead guys car. Yes all (rumored to be 28) air Cobras just happened to come from estates of dead people whose kids always demanded cash and to remain unknown.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: shelbydoug on April 11, 2021, 01:40:42 PM
It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.
I still have some titles of cars I junked in the late 60s. We'd drive around and buy junkers for $10-15 and take them direct to the scrap metal dealer for $45. Those cars no longer exist so the titles are worthless unless someone is willing to commit a felony by stamping the VIN on another car. At that time a quirk existed in CA law. If I sold a car to a junkyard I was required to give them the title (or statement as to why I didn't have it). That title went to the state and was cancelled showing the car as junked. A scrap metal dealer was not required to obtain a title. The scrap yard was paying about $20 more per car than a junkyard. Those cars were being sent as scrap metal to Japan. If I had the title to a car and someone else had possession of the car the courts would have to figure out that one.
I know of at least one case where a person borrowed money from another SAAC member and gave them the title to their 65 GT350 as collateral. Hard times continued and he sold the car with a duplicate title he got from DMV after saying he had lost the original. In DMVs eyes the original title was now worthless as it had been replaced with a new one. It's hard to say what a court would find. The seller committed fraud. The person who loaned the money did not protect their interest by filing a lien with DMV and being listed as legal owner on the title.
The registration from Morrison's car is nothing more than a Rock and Roll or Shelby collectible. It has zero value as to the ownership of the car - only the title matters. Every year CA DMV issues new registration paperwork along with your tag. If someone was able to get into the DMV archives and check they would probably find that the Morrison car was junked. One interesting point is that CA DMV closed their doors to their historical records when it was discovered that Cobras that had been junked in the 60s and 70s were turning up with fresh MSOs and being registered as original cars. The "Air Cobra" scheme only came to light when the original owner of one of the junked cars came forward. He had purchased and still had the wreckage of his 427 Cobra that he purchased new, totaled, surrendered the title to the insurance (who notified DMV car was destroyed) and then purchased the wreckage back from the insurance company. The owner of the aircar had it seized by the CHP and after all was said and done his $250,000 investment was turned into a $50,000 kit car with a CA assigned VIN. He had no recourse since it was an all cash purchase - of course with such a small circle of Cobra buyers/restorers/sellers it was easy to figure out who had access to DMV records, who had the ability to create a Cobra from a pile of tubing and aluminum sheet and who was the logical broker for the dead guys car. Yes all (rumored to be 28) air Cobras just happened to come from estates of dead people whose kids always demanded cash and to remain unknown.

For a '67 NYS would only require proof of previous registration which that tag is. There would be no title issued with it since NYS isn't a title state until '73 model year.

New York, in fact the White Plains DMV was THE place to register hot cars from a bill of sale until the '73 model year with titles.

It's not offered as a debateable issue here. Just a statement of fact as at least previously existed.  ;)
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Benny on April 11, 2021, 06:04:09 PM
I think that if you, me, we are using a car like CSX3232 as an example, then there are several things to consider.

Certainly in the case of the comp cars, more then one have been completely re-created from the "remains" of the original. Many have been resold and personally I haven't heard of any "fraud" lawsuits involved.

It doesn't seem to be limited to original Comp Cobras that new purchasers accept the current existing car as they would the original and continue to race it?


So reconstructions of a twisted basket case race car seems to be more acceptable then a street car? It should also be noted that it may in fact be the SAAC Cobra Registry that coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that is constructed completely out of thin air, not even an original bolt.

Having said that, what is the acceptable level of replacement on a wreck like this? Records are attempted to be kept and the decision is up to the potential new purchaser?


It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.




When I mentioned a car to our Cobra Registrar, and it might have been this one, his reply to me was "I want you to be aware that what you are looking at is not the car that left Shelby American". I think that says a lot if not all, so anyone interested in buying an "original" Cobra has to make a determination of how satisfied they are with what the car currently is?

Your last paragraph sums it up nicely, its not the car that left Shelby American & the individual needs to determine how satisfied they are with the car & its history. I like the style of the Cobra Registrar.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Benny on April 11, 2021, 06:18:00 PM
It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.
I still have some titles of cars I junked in the late 60s. We'd drive around and buy junkers for $10-15 and take them direct to the scrap metal dealer for $45. Those cars no longer exist so the titles are worthless unless someone is willing to commit a felony by stamping the VIN on another car. At that time a quirk existed in CA law. If I sold a car to a junkyard I was required to give them the title (or statement as to why I didn't have it). That title went to the state and was cancelled showing the car as junked. A scrap metal dealer was not required to obtain a title. The scrap yard was paying about $20 more per car than a junkyard. Those cars were being sent as scrap metal to Japan. If I had the title to a car and someone else had possession of the car the courts would have to figure out that one.
I know of at least one case where a person borrowed money from another SAAC member and gave them the title to their 65 GT350 as collateral. Hard times continued and he sold the car with a duplicate title he got from DMV after saying he had lost the original. In DMVs eyes the original title was now worthless as it had been replaced with a new one. It's hard to say what a court would find. The seller committed fraud. The person who loaned the money did not protect their interest by filing a lien with DMV and being listed as legal owner on the title.
The registration from Morrison's car is nothing more than a Rock and Roll or Shelby collectible. It has zero value as to the ownership of the car - only the title matters. Every year CA DMV issues new registration paperwork along with your tag. If someone was able to get into the DMV archives and check they would probably find that the Morrison car was junked. One interesting point is that CA DMV closed their doors to their historical records when it was discovered that Cobras that had been junked in the 60s and 70s were turning up with fresh MSOs and being registered as original cars. The "Air Cobra" scheme only came to light when the original owner of one of the junked cars came forward. He had purchased and still had the wreckage of his 427 Cobra that he purchased new, totaled, surrendered the title to the insurance (who notified DMV car was destroyed) and then purchased the wreckage back from the insurance company. The owner of the aircar had it seized by the CHP and after all was said and done his $250,000 investment was turned into a $50,000 kit car with a CA assigned VIN. He had no recourse since it was an all cash purchase - of course with such a small circle of Cobra buyers/restorers/sellers it was easy to figure out who had access to DMV records, who had the ability to create a Cobra from a pile of tubing and aluminum sheet and who was the logical broker for the dead guys car. Yes all (rumored to be 28) air Cobras just happened to come from estates of dead people whose kids always demanded cash and to remain unknown.

When you say air Cobras (rumored 28), is that series CSX2000 only or CSX3000 only or both series Cobras?
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 11, 2021, 06:53:18 PM
When you say air Cobras (rumored 28), is that series CSX2000 only or CSX3000 only or both series Cobras?
Both
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: shelbydoug on April 11, 2021, 09:05:49 PM
I think that if you, me, we are using a car like CSX3232 as an example, then there are several things to consider.

Certainly in the case of the comp cars, more then one have been completely re-created from the "remains" of the original. Many have been resold and personally I haven't heard of any "fraud" lawsuits involved.

It doesn't seem to be limited to original Comp Cobras that new purchasers accept the current existing car as they would the original and continue to race it?


So reconstructions of a twisted basket case race car seems to be more acceptable then a street car? It should also be noted that it may in fact be the SAAC Cobra Registry that coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that is constructed completely out of thin air, not even an original bolt.

Having said that, what is the acceptable level of replacement on a wreck like this? Records are attempted to be kept and the decision is up to the potential new purchaser?


It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.




When I mentioned a car to our Cobra Registrar, and it might have been this one, his reply to me was "I want you to be aware that what you are looking at is not the car that left Shelby American". I think that says a lot if not all, so anyone interested in buying an "original" Cobra has to make a determination of how satisfied they are with what the car currently is?

Your last paragraph sums it up nicely, its not the car that left Shelby American & the individual needs to determine how satisfied they are with the car & its history. I like the style of the Cobra Registrar.

You will like Ned. He's a great guy. We call him the Scud missile.  ;)
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Benny on April 12, 2021, 01:33:28 AM
I think that if you, me, we are using a car like CSX3232 as an example, then there are several things to consider.

Certainly in the case of the comp cars, more then one have been completely re-created from the "remains" of the original. Many have been resold and personally I haven't heard of any "fraud" lawsuits involved.

It doesn't seem to be limited to original Comp Cobras that new purchasers accept the current existing car as they would the original and continue to race it?


So reconstructions of a twisted basket case race car seems to be more acceptable then a street car? It should also be noted that it may in fact be the SAAC Cobra Registry that coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that is constructed completely out of thin air, not even an original bolt.

Having said that, what is the acceptable level of replacement on a wreck like this? Records are attempted to be kept and the decision is up to the potential new purchaser?


It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.




When I mentioned a car to our Cobra Registrar, and it might have been this one, his reply to me was "I want you to be aware that what you are looking at is not the car that left Shelby American". I think that says a lot if not all, so anyone interested in buying an "original" Cobra has to make a determination of how satisfied they are with what the car currently is?

Your last paragraph sums it up nicely, its not the car that left Shelby American & the individual needs to determine how satisfied they are with the car & its history. I like the style of the Cobra Registrar.

You will like Ned. He's a great guy. We call him the Scud missile.  ;)

Cheers Doug, I've only had the opportunity to email Ned a couple of times but I hope to meet him, you & others one day at a SAAC convention.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: tesgt350 on April 12, 2021, 07:26:47 AM
Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

I believe this is the same Destroyed Cobra.,...….
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: shelbydoug on April 12, 2021, 08:55:46 AM
Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

I believe this is the same Destroyed Cobra.,...….

I don't mean to make this sound argumentative. That's not my intention.

I don't think the word "destroyed" is applicable here. It is repairable/rebuildable.

It does look like the chassis may be bent but chassis can be straightened.


I keep looking for the bodies stuck like squashed bugs to the tree. I don't remember what the newspaper report said but I'd be shocked if the driver and passenger survived.

Having said that though, thinking back when DWI wrecks were 1000% more common then today, I do remember having the thought that often the driver was the only one to survive since he was so plastered he bounced around like silly putty in the impact.


I remember one specifically where the Fire Department was using the big flood lights looking in the trees for the driver and it turned out that after he was thrown through the windshield, he just got up and ran away.

That was a Cadillac Eldorado convertible which back then was a favorite of the drunks since they were like driving a Sherman tank, destroyed anything they hit and just threw the passengers around "a little".  Not an Abrahams though. Those would sink through the asphalt pavement too much.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: tesgt350 on April 12, 2021, 09:34:38 AM
Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

I believe this is the same Destroyed Cobra.,...….

I don't mean to make this sound argumentative. That's not my intention.

I don't think the word "destroyed" is applicable here. It is repairable/rebuildable.

It does look like the chassis may be bent but chassis can be straightened.


I keep looking for the bodies stuck like squashed bugs to the tree. I don't remember what the newspaper report said but I'd be shocked if the driver and passenger survived.

Having said that though, thinking back when DWI wrecks were 1000% more common then today, I do remember having the thought that often the driver was the only one to survive since he was so plastered he bounced around like silly putty in the impact.


I remember one specifically where the Fire Department was using the big flood lights looking in the trees for the driver and it turned out that after he was thrown through the windshield, he just got up and ran away.

That was a Cadillac Eldorado convertible which back then was a favorite of the drunks since they were like driving a Sherman tank, destroyed anything they hit and just threw the passengers around "a little".  Not an Abrahams though. Those would sink through the asphalt pavement too much.

The story that was with the Photos said the owner let a friend drive it and they were both killed in the crash.  Enough Money and Hours you can repair any destroyed Vehicle but back in that time period, I am some what sure everyone back then would say that, THAT car was destroyed...……... ::)
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Cobra Ned on April 12, 2021, 12:17:23 PM
I believe the story in the Registry says all it needs to in order for anyone to arrive at a rational conclusion as to the fact that 3232 was severely wrecked and ended up eating resurrected from essentially its paperwork, albeit using what appears to have been a genuine Cobra chassis which was presumably renumbered. As to the legal aspects of the Registry and the facts it attempts to lay out, I will only say that I and the other Registrars do our utmost to present correct details, hence none of us are afraid to appear in court to defend our printed statements. Fortunately, we have prevailed whenever we have been dragged into court by an owner who felt wronged by the facts.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: shelbydoug on April 12, 2021, 12:52:38 PM
I believe the story in the Registry says all it needs to in order for anyone to arrive at a rational conclusion as to the fact that 3232 was severely wrecked and ended up eating resurrected from essentially its paperwork, albeit using what appears to have been a genuine Cobra chassis which was presumably renumbered. As to the legal aspects of the Registry and the facts it attempts to lay out, I will only say that I and the other Registrars do our utmost to present correct details, hence none of us are afraid to appear in court to defend our printed statements. Fortunately, we have prevailed whenever we have been dragged into court by an owner who felt wronged by the facts.

MY "rational" answer, IF I was interested in buying would be to see the pictures of the cars reconstruction and ask for a log of what was used and not used from the original car. Then I"d CONSIDER it as a repaired car rather then an air car but granted,  that would take maybe an impossible amount of convincing?  ;)

I have my doubts as well but am not as yet convinced that the chassis was not reparable.

I know as a former Registrar that "re-bodies" are not uncommon on "Mustang" chassis or uni-bodies but exactly how a Cobra would be rebodied in that time frame would likely require another Cobra.


Even so, is it as valuable as an original Cobra? I doubt that but the question is what percentage? For sure the owner would equate them.


I do remember that Blood Brothers Wreckers in Mamaroneck had two 427 Cobras that I was aware of. One was a theft recovery. I'm very sure that they bought an entirely new aluminum body for one of the two. I don't know which one and I only knew of one CSX number anyway.

The one I'm thinking was from "Tony Rega" and I think it was close to Brostek's in the CSX 318...something?


I can't think of anyone having a replacement body to sell around 1976 or so except possibly maybe Gordon Gimble but obviously 3232 needed one? I may be wrong but I don't think Brian Anglis was selling full bodies or replacement chassis yet but he's the only other possible source I can think in that time period?
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Cobra Ned on April 12, 2021, 01:44:15 PM
3232 was reconstructed in the '79 -'80 time period, when Brian Angliss was indeed supplying alloy bodies (as well as chassis).
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Side-Oilers on April 12, 2021, 03:50:35 PM
Was McCluskey building bodies from scratch back then?
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 12, 2021, 04:31:28 PM
Was McCluskey building bodies from scratch back then?

I think so. COCOA went to his place for a tour around 76-77.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: shelbydoug on April 12, 2021, 04:41:04 PM
Was McCluskey building bodies from scratch back then?

McCluskey " had a guy" but I'm not sure that he was actually supplying complete bodies? It was more like he could do a fender or a clip.

Angliss said that he had the original body bucks from AC as I recall so they would be "exact" whatever that means on a hand formed aluminum skin?

There was also some discussion about using thicker walled tubes chassis but I think McClusky could "build" you a chassis.

In addition, someone, probably McClusky was reinforcing the 289 chassis by inserting internal tubes in them. He was saying that many of the 289 chassis were "tweaked" so considering that if the tubes were not straight, I'm not sure how you got a snug fit even if you honed them and pressed the reinforcing tube in the existing one?


I saw the remains of CSX 2127 or 28 that Eber had brought down on a trailer from Montreal. Not only was that one wrecked, but it was burned as well. I haven't looked lately at the Registry but that one I'm sure, is "pristine original, unrestored as raced" these days?
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: CSX2259 on April 12, 2021, 05:27:37 PM
So what is the consensus of a car that was built around nothing more than original paperwork and a few bits and pieces that were unrelated to that chassis?
Is it legal to re-stamp another frame and call it that Cobra if you own the title of that car?
Then there was the original frame that was sold when the vehicle was parted out but a transfer of title never took place because the frame was being sold as a component and not a whole car? Then given the values of Cobras whoever had that frame decided to build a Cobra around it, what then?
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Benny on April 12, 2021, 05:41:50 PM
Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

I believe this is the same Destroyed Cobra.,...….
What's clear in my mind, is todays CSX3232 isn't the Cobra that left Shelby American in April of 1966. That's the perspective I'll take when looking at Shelby's. Thank you for the extra photos.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Benny on April 12, 2021, 05:44:29 PM
I believe the story in the Registry says all it needs to in order for anyone to arrive at a rational conclusion as to the fact that 3232 was severely wrecked and ended up eating resurrected from essentially its paperwork, albeit using what appears to have been a genuine Cobra chassis which was presumably renumbered. As to the legal aspects of the Registry and the facts it attempts to lay out, I will only say that I and the other Registrars do our utmost to present correct details, hence none of us are afraid to appear in court to defend our printed statements. Fortunately, we have prevailed whenever we have been dragged into court by an owner who felt wronged by the facts.
Thanks for your comments Ned & firm stance on correct details no matter how an owner may feel.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: Cobra Ned on April 12, 2021, 09:03:53 PM
Was McCluskey building bodies from scratch back then?

No, he was not. But he had a connection from the Pacific Northwest who made the link between him and AutoKraft (Brian Angliss) and was able to acquire as many chassis, bodies, and composites as he needed to rebuild seriously damaged cars, or - in some cases - create new cars from paperwork.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 12, 2021, 11:31:04 PM
Was McCluskey building bodies from scratch back then?

No, he was not. But he had a connection from the Pacific Northwest who made the link between him and AutoKraft (Brian Angliss) and was able to acquire as many chassis, bodies, and composites as he needed to rebuild seriously damaged cars, or - in some cases - create new cars from paperwork.
Thanks I saw parts and thought he had rolled them there.
Title: Re: A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232
Post by: shelbydoug on May 28, 2021, 10:33:02 AM
I was just a little late getting into the Cobra "scene" around 1972.

There were lots of stories of "wrecked" Cobras circulating with a notable amount appearing in publications like "Competition Press". That "newspaper" reached such a small segment of the population that it was almost like an underground paper or a "clicky" thing like the "Village Voice".


Having known some of "the players" then, some, my interpretation of the attractiveness of buying a wrecked Cobra was the prospect of getting something for nothing. Certainly a lot below what the perceived "market value" would be.

Re-sellers were already "pre-qualifying" wanting buyers as "undeserving" mostly I think in the hopes of driving up the market.

As I recall, Carter Getty of Getty Ford in Millbrook, NY, could "get you" any Corbra that you wanted for $8,500.

Now it possible that there were some used Cobras still in the Ford Dealers used car auction system but Carter already had kind of an "underground' reputation as a Cobra "go to guy".



Not to intentionally disparage anyone but if I look back at who was "restoring" these cars, not only were some of the cars "air cars" but many of their businesses were "air businesses" working out of one car garages behind their parents houses. More then a few I can name were "barn finds" fifty years before the term existed.



The answer was and still is, the price difference between a car created from air and one "as it left Shelby American" then and now.

If Kirkam can build one for $80,000 and it can mysteriously become a "genuine CSX 3000 car" then there is a huge benefit to grifters  to attempt that route.

Ned's "old" S/C, just went to a no-sale at auction of $2.3 million. I'd say the profits are better then ever right now if you can get away with it?



In many cases it's hard to tell an original. Ned has pointed out to me (he probably doesn't remember though) that the Kirkham is "too good". The original cars were not as nice. ;)

My perspective? A car like CSX3232 should be worth at most what a CSX continuation car is. On that point, the seller would likely put a gun in your face and order you off of their property?

That's the determination the buyer needs to make. $2.5 million for a recreation with an original tag or $150k? I might be "thick", but even I see the answer to that one.