SAAC Forum

The Cars => CSX 3000 Series => Topic started by: rkm on June 08, 2021, 01:19:00 PM

Title: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: rkm on June 08, 2021, 01:19:00 PM
For the past 25 years or so, I have used Pennziol 25w50 Racing oil exclusively in all my flat tappet engine cars. Never a problem. I ate a camshaft once before that when Pennzoil took all the ZDDP out of there street car oil 20w50.
Last year, after Pennzoil was sold to Shell, they discontinued the product and it is now unobtainium.
I did a pile of research on the Internet and decided that Valvoline VR1 Racing oil would be the stuff to use. Didn't want to start mixing my own oil etc. I looked at all the alternatives. There is a lot of junk on the Internet. But I bought $500.00 of the stuff to make the switch.

But just to be safe, I had the old stuff (of which I still have a bottle or two) analyzed along with the VR1.
Low and behold, it has only 65% of the zinc that the Pennzoil has. VR1 1304 ppm, phosphorus 1179 ppm. Pennzoil zinc 2014 ppm, phosphorus 1826 ppm.
I can post the reports as soon as my kid shows me how. But this is no bs, virgin new oil samples. So forget any hype you read elsewhere. "designed for flat tappet engines" etc. All bs.

My question to the gurus is, now what? I know I am not the only one with this issue.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: shelbydoug on June 08, 2021, 01:30:41 PM
Look at Compcams break-in oil. You may like the specs. I did.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: Bob Gaines on June 08, 2021, 01:38:56 PM
I typically add the ZDDP sold additive to along with the oil during a oil change.This procedure satisfies my concern about the missing properties in the modern oil used in flat tappet engines.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: gt350hr on June 08, 2021, 02:20:20 PM
    VR1 is fine for flat tappet cams. There are other factors (lobe taper , lifter radius, and valve spring pressure) that also cause lobe failure regardless oil /zinc load. Once a cam is broken in the zinc level can be reduced as the parts have lapped in.
    Randy
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: NC TRACKRAT on June 22, 2021, 01:18:49 PM
BradPenn (now Penngrade1) the original green oil that Kendall used to make, has been serving me well.  Check 'em out at www.Penngrade1.com.  I purchase a couple of cases at a time directly from the local distributor.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: FL SAAC on June 22, 2021, 03:07:29 PM
Been saying this for years. Real easy Mobil 1,  how much do you want?

Zinc levels
1300
1750
1850

truly don't need any more than this
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on June 22, 2021, 05:17:10 PM
BradPenn (now Penngrade1) the original green oil that Kendall used to make, has been serving me well.  Check 'em out at www.Penngrade1.com.  I purchase a couple of cases at a time directly from the local distributor.

+1 great stuff
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: FL SAAC on June 22, 2021, 05:47:40 PM
Good stuff not better than Mobil 1

BradPenn (now Penngrade1) the original green oil that Kendall used to make, has been serving me well.  Check 'em out at www.Penngrade1.com.  I purchase a couple of cases at a time directly from the local distributor.

+1 great stuff
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: NC TRACKRAT on June 22, 2021, 08:14:53 PM
Both will get the job done but if you compare MOBIL1 Racing vs. PennGrade1 at either the distributor or retail level and I think PennGrade will win the ZDDP battle on price.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: rkm on June 22, 2021, 10:32:09 PM
Thank you all for the advice. I settled on "Driven" break in oil from Joe  Gibbs racing. 1800 ppm zinc. 20w50 wt.

I will let you all know how it works.

Now...what to do with all that Valvoline?..
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: shelbydoug on June 23, 2021, 07:32:54 AM
I would just add to this discussion that a solid lifter 427 doesn't need any different of a break in oil then any other solid lifter engine does.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: FL SAAC on June 23, 2021, 08:53:45 AM
Both will get the job done but if you compare MOBIL1 Racing vs. PennGrade1 at either the distributor or retail level and I think PennGrade will win the ZDDP battle on price.

Well if you want to WIN on the battle on price, we can always buy from Shiiiiinaaaa  ! Probably has more ZDDP and other ingredients than Penn or Mobil
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: gt350hr on June 23, 2021, 11:25:25 AM
   Let me know how that works for you Tony! I'll keep on using "green oil" in my race engines , VR1 in my flat tappet engines , and conventional or synthetic in factory roller engines. Oil is one thing you shouldn't cheap out on.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: pbf777 on June 23, 2021, 11:26:30 AM
I typically add the ZDDP sold additive to along with the oil during a oil change.This procedure satisfies my concern about the missing properties in the modern oil used in flat tappet engines.

     Just to pass along a comment in two separate communications I have had with 'real' oil engineers on this topic; this being that in reality it is not known (without testing), and highly doubtful when realizing what is required to accomplish, that any store bought additive is doing anything but taking money out of our pocket, and then just laying in the bottom of the oil pan!   :o   The idea that one can just pour some foreign chemical composition additive into some complex refined oil product and be successful in achieving the desired effect is going to be definitely questionable.   :-\ 

     This regardless of any claims made on the label!   ::)

     And as a note: realize that the composition of ZDDP, although found in, is not technically considered a lubricant, in the typical sense, but rather is a sacrificial metal additive package to aid in extending the lubricant's otherwise more limited capability.     :)

     Scott.

     
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: gt350hr on June 23, 2021, 11:38:14 AM
   +1 "oil" can ONLY hold SO many additives in suspension and oil company engineers design the oils with that in mind. So "additives" fall out onto the bottom of the oil pan EXACTLY as Scott mentioned. I found this out the hard way when during break in of a new engine I had a main seal leak ( imagine that) . I pulled the pan to find a thick gray "sludge" covering the bottom of the pan and it looked "metallic" in nature. Sure enough it was the "zinc additive" put in for camshaft break in. It wasn't doing a damn bit of good laying on the bottom of the pan
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: FL SAAC on June 23, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
Preaching to the choir, we have always used Mobil 1

"Lo barato sale caro"

   Let me know how that works for you Tony! I'll keep on using "green oil" in my race engines , VR1 in my flat tappet engines , and conventional or synthetic in factory roller engines. Oil is one thing you shouldn't cheap out on.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: gt350hr on June 23, 2021, 11:50:23 AM
   I know you bleed red white and blue! Just poking you in the ribs.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: FL SAAC on June 23, 2021, 12:56:20 PM
   I know you bleed red white and blue! Just poking you in the ribs.

Randy you wouldn't believe how true that statement is.

Speaking of ribs love those things and by the way are you aware there is a "national chicken wing shortage?"
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: 8T03S1425 on June 23, 2021, 01:23:32 PM
I never really thought about oil's ability, or inability, to keep additives in suspension, but it certainly makes sense that if oil sits without agitation for a prolonged period of time, heavy additives will settle. Is that really a consideration in a wet sump configuration? I ask because the oil pick-up is very close to the bottom of the oil pan, and it seems to me that whatever liquids are down there are going to be picked and pumped through a running engine, quickly producing a homogeneous liquid.

I know nothing of dry sump applications, so it seems to me that oil additive separation is a greater concern in a dry sump.

I find discussions like this to be very informative and interesting.

Steve
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: pbf777 on June 23, 2021, 04:12:04 PM
................. oil's ability, or inability, to keep additives in suspension,


     Within the oils' chemical composition of "additive-packages" this concern falls under the responsibility of the "binders".       ;)

     Scott.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: 427heaven on June 23, 2021, 10:24:01 PM
Lets take a look back to when the 427s ran the streets and tracks of America 63- 67, 30 weight was the go to for most vehicles. 40 weight if you wanted to be racy. Worked good then and motor oil technology is even better today, use this to guide you if you have a stock engine driven in a street environment, things get more complicated for any racy applications. Your engine builder will help you if your not sure what to do. ;)
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: gt350hr on June 24, 2021, 10:30:21 AM
I never really thought about oil's ability, or inability, to keep additives in suspension, but it certainly makes sense that if oil sits without agitation for a prolonged period of time, heavy additives will settle. Is that really a consideration in a wet sump configuration? I ask because the oil pick-up is very close to the bottom of the oil pan, and it seems to me that whatever liquids are down there are going to be picked and pumped through a running engine, quickly producing a homogeneous liquid.

I know nothing of dry sump applications, so it seems to me that oil additive separation is a greater concern in a dry sump.

I find discussions like this to be very informative and interesting.

Steve


      Steve the additives ( and on a new engine include assembly lube) literally coat the bottom of the pan with a sludge like film . How much falls out determines the thickness of of the build up. "Oil circulation" may pick up "some" near the oil pick up while running but when the engine shuts off , the separation begins again. It IS possible that over , let's say 10 oil changes , the build up could be gone or nearly gone as new oil "could" pull some of the additives and others could come out when the oil is drained repeatedly. Those concerned about lifter failure should be aware that a camshaft made with a 2* lobe taper is hard to make fail unless there is bind in the valve train or ridiculous valve spring pressure. I haven't lost a lobe in 40 years on a flat lifter cam , solid or hydraulic.
   Randy
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: shelbyhertz66 on June 24, 2021, 10:51:11 AM
Hi All,
So I just had my 67 Shelby's hipo machined and rebuilt by a shop that did my Hertz car's engine years ago
and at that time he advised only  Brad Penn .  Now he is using Maxima high performance oil 10w40
He is a very busy full service race engine shop so i am using the Maxima. By the way Brad Penn was sold
a while back so unsure if the zinc formula is still the same , maybe that's why he changed.
Dave
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: gt350hr on June 24, 2021, 01:14:23 PM
   Brad Penn was purchased by DA Lubricants which has been around since automobiles were invented. They sponsored MANY Indy cars in the day. They have NOT altered the original Kendall GT1 / Brad Penn formula.
Title: Re: Oil for 427 Medium Riser mechanical lifters
Post by: rkm on June 24, 2021, 02:30:15 PM
Dave, if you are curious, send off a sample of the old stuff and the new stuff and have it tested. It cost me$35.00 for piece of mind.