https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1968-shelby-mustang-gt500kr-5/
Ends in 6 days.
Current Bid is now $133,333.00
8T02R201795-02454
SOLD FOR $262,589 ON 9/13/21
Scratching my head over this one... not a CJ block, wrong carb, a/c added, automatic... Clean and well presented, photos and seller engagement must have helped a lot.
Outstanding seller on this one.
Previous rust history (pre-restoration photos), lots of repro parts, including door tag, panels reworked or replaced. P.O. claimed rotis restored in 2014.
Great job!
You got a Cobra Jet car without a cobra jet block, from a Canadian dealership, with extensive sheet metal repairs and replacement body tags. Oh sorry forget the cheap and incorrect parts for a quarter million plus!
I am wondering why a car built in May has a pre-December metal dashboard? Asking for a friend.
Hall of fame purchase
Have buddies, will bid!
LQQKS like ebay polices buddy bidding better.
Looked like repo fiberglass headlights buckets as well as taillight panel must have been replaced because no adjustable decklid bumpers? Never seen a buck tag on the drivers side apron. The closer I looked at the photos, the more I found and questioned. I thought $133k was all the money on that car!
Don
gt350bp
Maybe someone here should've stepped up and contacted the buyer with their expertise.
Instead, just make remarks here to most that already know what wrong or right ???
Hope the new owner enjoys his purchase no matter the accuracy and amount spent. 8)
Quote from: Don Johnston on September 13, 2021, 06:30:21 PM
Hope the new owner enjoys his purchase no matter the accuracy and amount spent. 8)
+ 1
This forum gets stupider by the day
I don't believe the price but who ever thought Cobras would be million dollar cars?
Quote from: Tired Sheep on September 13, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
You got a Cobra Jet car without a cobra jet block, from a Canadian dealership, with extensive sheet metal repairs and replacement body tags. Oh sorry forget the cheap and incorrect parts for a quarter million plus!
Hey! What's wrong with a Canadian dealer?? One of my cars is from Healy. Same cars delivered to 50 states.
Quote from: Don Johnston on September 13, 2021, 06:30:21 PM
Hope the new owner enjoys his purchase no matter the accuracy and amount spent. 8)
Tell you what, for that much, I sure do love my Ford GT.
Quote from: Tired Sheep on September 13, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
Great job!
You got a Cobra Jet car without a cobra jet block, from a Canadian dealership, with extensive sheet metal repairs and replacement body tags. Oh sorry forget the cheap and incorrect parts for a quarter million plus!
I am wondering why a car built in May has a pre-December metal dashboard? Asking for a friend.
Hall of fame purchase
I didn't do a deep dive on correctness and some of the things pointed out here I'm going to go back and look at and save the pics for ref. I have been creating files on cars. The dash thing I missed. The buck tag I saw. I make it a habit not to alter an auction if I can by comments. Those who see my comments I will answer a question or I will rebut a comment which was falsely made. One example is the med lime Boss 302 on BaT right now. One person chimes in on how correct the underside was done so I corrected him pointing out the Repo front floor pans and posted a link to a you tube video of Bob Perkins 1970 GO B9. I may also post on things AFTER the car has sold. I've seen some real turds go for stupid money. I have also pointed out when some have reached out to me here on what was wrong with a particular car(look at pic ### and this is what I see...). I will also point out the GOOD I see in a car for sale. Absence of all sound deadner I found curious on this KR. Should the rear leaf springs have band clamps on them also? Gary
Quote from: CharlesTurner on September 13, 2021, 02:17:44 PM
SOLD FOR $262,589 ON 9/13/21
Scratching my head over this one... not a CJ block, wrong carb, a/c added, automatic... Clean and well presented, photos and seller engagement must have helped a lot.
I didn't identify you right on the BaT post. Sorry. I'm used to Caspian65. When I read many comments after the car was sold(didn't have time to really follow the car last week) I see you had one flagged as "non constructive". I cannot fathom anywhere where a comment by you isn't constructive in the concours Mustang world. Gary
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 14, 2021, 07:13:34 AM
Quote from: CharlesTurner on September 13, 2021, 02:17:44 PM
SOLD FOR $262,589 ON 9/13/21
Scratching my head over this one... not a CJ block, wrong carb, a/c added, automatic... Clean and well presented, photos and seller engagement must have helped a lot.
I didn't identify you right on the BaT post. Sorry. I'm used to Caspian65. When I read many comments after the car was sold(didn't have time to really follow the car last week) I see you had one flagged as "non constructive". I cannot fathom anywhere where a comment by you isn't constructive in the concours Mustang world. Gary
I'm confused on a couple of things?
1) Was the car represented as Concourse correct and therefore it is misrepresented as such and then can't be worth the reported sales price and shouldn't have been allowed by the peanut gallery here? The sale therefor is some sort of an insult to the loyal baptized followers of this Shelby cult and by right should be nullified and voided?
2)What exactly is a '68 "early metal" dash? I'm stumped and never heard of that?
But obviously I'm a very confused individual? Bless me Father for I have sinned, but where is the confessional?
Personally, I am so done dealing with the perpetually offended crowd.
If you pay double what a car is worth, you probably deserve to be called out on your foolishness. You can pay what you want, just like you can ask what you like, but that makes you no less of a fool.
Whats wrong with the car only supports the fact, that a foolish error has been made.
There are two different dashboards used in 1968. The "early" dash has holes for a knee pad, above the glove box. The later has no holes and no knee pad. KRs do not have knee pads on the dash. Either someone ignorantly added a knee pad to a KR dash or something else nefarious is afoot.
Its time to stop catering to stupidity, people aint got time for that.
Quote from: Coralsnake on September 14, 2021, 08:14:14 AM
Personally, I am so done dealing with the perpetually offended crowd.
If you pay double what a car is worth, you probably deserve to be called out on your foolishness. You can pay what you want, just like you can ask what you like, but that makes you no less of a fool.
Whats wrong with the car only supports the fact, that a foolish error has been made.
There are two different dashboards used in 1968. The "early" dash has holes for a knee pad, above the glove box. The later has no holes and no knee pad. KRs do not have knee pads on the dash. Either someone ignorantly added a knee pad to a KR dash or something else nefarious is afoot.
Its time to stop catering to stupidity, people aint got time for that.
Thank you Father for your understanding but does a 67 kneepad qualify it as an all metal dash?
How many "Hail Marry's" do I need?
I understand the stupidity remark and foolishness judgement. It is obvious by following posts on this forum that they are so very permanently present by our brethren.
Father, should we stone these foolish and stupid buyers and posters, exercise self flagellation here to show the world how pure of faith we all are? That we can call out the unpure, sickeningly misguided and self appointed judges amongst us?
Thank you for your response. Bless you!
We shall not stone them my son, merely pray that they will see the light and be saved.
My personal two cents worth:
Could there be a personal connection to the car in question we do not know about?
Could it be something they always wanted and could not afford till now?
Could it be a birthday/anniversary present to someone
Could it be two friends just trying to one up each other?
Why should it really matter to anyone but the buyer?
Honestly, we as a group seem to be getting far too wrapped up in what is, and what is not "correct", forgetting that at one point, we were drawn to these cars for what they are, actually enjoyed driving them, racing them, modifying them to conform to our own wants and needs. In my mind, it's all boils down to the wants and needs of one specific person. After that, who am I to question how someone else spends his/her/their hard earned money?
Again, just my personal two cents worth.
Bill
Quote from: Coralsnake on September 14, 2021, 08:33:28 AM
We shall not stone them my son, merely pray that they will see the light and be saved.
Hallelujah! I have been shown the light of truth! (but denied the gift of spelling correctly)
Quote from: Bill on September 14, 2021, 08:34:48 AM
My personal two cents worth:
Could there be a personal connection to the car in question we do not know about?
Could it be something they always wanted and could not afford till now?
Could it be a birthday/anniversary present to someone
Could it be two friends just trying to one up each other?
Why should it really matter to anyone but the buyer?
Honestly, we as a group seem to be getting far too wrapped up in what is, and what is not "correct", forgetting that at one point, we were drawn to these cars for what they are, actually enjoyed driving them, racing them, modifying them to conform to our own wants and needs. In my mind, it's all boils down to the wants and needs of one specific person. After that, who am I to question how someone else spends his/her/their hard earned money?
Again, just my personal two cents worth.
Bill
Madonna's at it again? Who's the honey now?
I guess like all the rest.... it's only worth what someone (knowledgeable or un-knowledgeable) is willing to pay. Its a pretty car either way.
Someone really wanted a black/black KR,,, that's for sure... It's a big bag o'coin in any case...
I thought all 68 shelbys got tilt -tiltaway steering but dont see the vaccum can under battery tray or switch button in lh door jam below interior light button switch.
Quote from: Special Ed on September 14, 2021, 10:04:33 AM
I thought all 68 shelbys got tilt -tiltaway steering but dont see the vaccum can under battery tray or switch button in lh door jam below interior light button switch.
Shelby's built after a Jan 68 build date would automatically get the tilt option. Certainly a much later built KR would have automatically got that option.
Quote from: Special Ed on September 14, 2021, 10:04:33 AM
I thought all 68 shelbys got tilt -tiltaway steering but dont see the vaccum can under battery tray or switch button in lh door jam below interior light button switch.
Tilt-away is on the window sticker/marti report and also the code is on the build sheet for it.
As Pete says, maybe something nefarious is in play here... who will be the first to use the 'R' word? Or is it the 'D' word?
I do feel like several of the people who have commented in this thread are failing to understand the differences between nit picking "what is correct" and the actual issues of the car not being properly represented.
I perfectly understand it is against the sellers best interests to reveal all the gory details (if they are known)
I dont see an issue with pointing out the high probability that the buyer was uniformed.
This should serve as yet another example of seeking assistance when you are purchasing something for this type of money.
I guess I disagree we as a community should be contacting potential buyers. The burden is on them. If you have $250,000 to spend on a fastback, you can probably pay a couple thousand for an evaluation or take a few hours to make some new friends on the forums.
Maybe the buyer doesnt care in this case, but I think we can agree that would be an exception.
Quote from: Bill on September 14, 2021, 08:34:48 AM
My personal two cents worth:
Could there be a personal connection to the car in question we do not know about?
Could it be something they always wanted and could not afford till now?
Could it be a birthday/anniversary present to someone
Could it be two friends just trying to one up each other?
Why should it really matter to anyone but the buyer?
Honestly, we as a group seem to be getting far too wrapped up in what is, and what is not "correct", forgetting that at one point, we were drawn to these cars for what they are, actually enjoyed driving them, racing them, modifying them to conform to our own wants and needs. In my mind, it's all boils down to the wants and needs of one specific person. After that, who am I to question how someone else spends his/her/their hard earned money?
Again, just my personal two cents worth.
Bill
I love the "is it just two friends , one upping each other."
I would say, It is just two friends bidding up a car and a third non-friend being the high bidder."
Here is another quote that I really like,
"Father, should we stone these foolish and stupid buyers and posters, exercise self flagellation here to show the world how pure of faith we all are? That we can call out the unpure, sickeningly misguided and self appointed judges amongst us?"
And the answer is YES, because it opens up others to say, "Gee one just like this car just sold on ebay for $XXX,XXX.XX, mine should be worth at least that much." (Must use doofy voice)
Quote from: CharlesTurner on September 13, 2021, 02:17:44 PM
SOLD FOR $262,589 ON 9/13/21
A friend wants to sell his KR with a 69 CJ engine and he thinks he could get $200k for it. Maybe he will. :-\
Quote from: Bigblock on September 14, 2021, 11:59:26 AM
Quote from: CharlesTurner on September 13, 2021, 02:17:44 PM
SOLD FOR $262,589 ON 9/13/21
A friend wants to sell his KR with a 69 CJ engine and he thinks he could get $200k for it. Maybe he will. :-\
And there we go!
B.A.T..........Bring-A-Trailer..........FULL OF MONEY!
If one watches BAT with any regularity, one would realize that for some reason the public is responding favorably to this format, and in its' bidding participation to the point of garnering quite the bids for much of that presented there. ::)
aka. If I wanted to sell something, at this point in time BAT is looking like an awfully good place to do it! ;)
Scott.
Quote from: pbf777 on September 14, 2021, 12:40:41 PM
B.A.T..........Bring-A-Trailer..........FULL OF MONEY!
If one watches BAT with any regularity, one would realize that for some reason the public is responding favorably to this format, and in its' bidding participation to the point of garnering quite the bids for much of that presented there. ::)
aka. If I wanted to sell something, at this point in time BAT is looking like an awfully good place to do it! ;)
Scott.
If you have an incorrect so so driver quality that looks great in pics BaT is an absolute. Unless it is a classic Corvette. Those get torn to shreds.
Why should any of this really matter to anyone but the buyer who has the economic power, was willing, able and paid the big bucks?
My pet peeve is when cars hit a home run on BaT there are those chiming in "WELL BOUGHT!!!". I think we have some on the KR. Or at the beginning of the auction some playing up a car like its the best thing since sliced bread. I missed a lot on this KR but didn't really critique this car either to really notice the tilt stuff.
Quote from: FL SAAC on September 14, 2021, 01:25:49 PM
Why should any of this really matter to anyone but the buyer who has the economic power, was willing, able and paid the big bucks?
I'd say it doesn't matter to most of us like me who watch in amusement that someone with that type of disposable income isn't smart enough to do some due diligence on a car they are buying. I'd think most made their money(well over 50 percent of the top one percent inherited their $$) they didn't make it by not researching or educating themselves on their money investments whether it is tangible or intangible assets.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 14, 2021, 01:26:09 PM
My pet peeve is when cars hit a home run on BaT there are those chiming in "WELL BOUGHT!!!". I think we have some on the KR. Or at the beginning of the auction some playing up a car like its the best thing since sliced bread. I missed a lot on this KR but didn't really critique this car either to really notice the tilt stuff.
See that on just about every single auction and if anyone knowledgeable calls out any issues, then they are nit-picking and most will pile on with how the car is perfect just the way it is.
On the black car, there are some pretty significant details that require a closer look by an expert. A pre-purchase inspection would have been in order.
Okay ladies and gentlemen, before you start torturing me...
Please understand that my first car was a 1971 Mustang Mach 1 bought in 1977 for $3,200. 351 C, 4 spd, AC, ram air, green with black sport int. Then a 1975 Euro Pantera in 1983 for $16k, and then a 1978 F150 short box 4x4 for 1984. So I'm a Ford guy all the way.
I spent over 3 months preparing for this BaT offering. I contacted two people in your direct community to fully understand what this car was. Even paid one to come look at the car. I won't name them, they know who they are. One actually told me they knew the history but never got back to me what they knew. I finally gave up. Did the best I could with what I could find alone.
I stated early in the commentary this was an OVER restored car. You folks use the term "Concours" where I believe you would be better served saying "Judged". The level of finishes on this car are absolutely WAY past factory. I have a close friend from Iowa who has an original 1969 Mustang Mach 1 his father bought new. I know what they should look like.
The bizarre reality in reading this thread is the complete disregard for resto-mod Shelby cars that bring $300k and more. Do you see that originality desire is an experience for some not all? If you want a documented original car, then buy it. If you want a different ownership experience and find those buying opportunities are fewer, you have to pay more. I'm certain we all agree different people desire different things and experiences. The person that bought this car had a black/black KR on his bucket list for a very long time. Are you really going to disparage his acquisition because it doesn't fit your desires? Just because he isn't interested in judging?
Why don't you folks spend some energy offering an objective vetting process for those like myself who would be happy to pay for it before offering a car? Instead of armchair complaining how the rest of the world is wrong. Or worse, accusing me of shill bidding. My passionate car wife of 40 years and I found that incredibly offensive and distasteful. Especially coming from Ford people. We've been nothing but champions for the brand these past 40+ years.
My question about the absence of the tilt-away items was a pretty important item which kind of got brushed aside and referred back to a previous conversation in the auction discussion. I tried not to be too critical as to not affect the outcome of the auction. At the end of the day, if the buyer is happy then that's all that matters, but down the road when it comes time to sell again, there might be a significant difference in the results.
Here is why I think it matters...the Shelby American Automobile Club has stated its goal is to protect the integrity of the marque.
This car has apparently attracted attention because several people have felt that integrity has been compromised to some extent. You may agree or disagree.
The integrity of a car does matter and it should effect the price.
As stated before that is between a buyer and seller, but final prices influence all of us.
We can argue about details, but when you have reproduction and incorrect parts and a car sells for 2x retail, I think it's understandable there is discussion. I also find it interesting many of the same people who complain about the forum not sharing information, complain about people pointing out discrepancies.
The car maybe "over restored" but only someone uninformed would call it concours.
Very well stated Scott and congratulations on the sale!
"Why don't you folks spend some energy offering an objective vetting process for those like myself who would be happy to pay for it before offering a car? Instead of armchair complaining how the rest of the world is wrong. Or worse, accusing me of shill bidding. My passionate car wife of 40 years and I found that incredibly offensive and distasteful. Especially coming from Ford people. We've been nothing but champions for the brand these past 40+ years"
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 14, 2021, 02:26:13 PM
Okay ladies and gentlemen, before you start torturing me...
Please understand that my first car was a 1971 Mustang Mach 1 bought in 1977 for $3,200. 351 C, 4 spd, AC, ram air, green with black sport int. Then a 1975 Euro Pantera in 1983 for $16k, and then a 1978 F150 short box 4x4 for 1984. So I'm a Ford guy all the way.
I spent over 3 months preparing for this BaT offering. I contacted two people in your direct community to fully understand what this car was. Even paid one to come look at the car. I won't name them, they know who they are. One actually told me they knew the history but never got back to me what they knew. I finally gave up. Did the best I could with what I could find alone.
I stated early in the commentary this was an OVER restored car. You folks use the term "Concours" where I believe you would be better served saying "Judged". The level of finishes on this car are absolutely WAY past factory. I have a close friend from Iowa who has an original 1969 Mustang Mach 1 his father bought new. I know what they should look like.
The bizarre reality in reading this thread is the complete disregard for resto-mod Shelby cars that bring $300k and more. Do you see that originality desire is an experience for some not all? If you want a documented original car, then buy it. If you want a different ownership experience and find those buying opportunities are fewer, you have to pay more. I'm certain we all agree different people desire different things and experiences. The person that bought this car had a black/black KR on his bucket list for a very long time. Are you really going to disparage his acquisition because it doesn't fit your desires? Just because he isn't interested in judging?
Why don't you folks spend some energy offering an objective vetting process for those like myself who would be happy to pay for it before offering a car? Instead of armchair complaining how the rest of the world is wrong. Or worse, accusing me of shill bidding. My passionate car wife of 40 years and I found that incredibly offensive and distasteful. Especially coming from Ford people. We've been nothing but champions for the brand these past 40+ years.
As stated above the car went for 2X retail......something is up. Plain and simple and I do not care if that hurts feelings, I would not consider any car "over restored" if it is not right in places as mentioned, yet because the paint is better than it was from the factory it is called over restored...Then my Boss is over restored also? Yet it has repro floor pan, torque boxes, rear frame rails, front frame rails, wheel houses, etc.....will bring more than it is worth? where do I go??? Let see a Boss today is lucky to retrieve 70K, where do I go for my 140K?
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 14, 2021, 01:21:53 PM
Unless it is a classic Corvette. Those get torn to shreds.
Yeah, I was the high bidder recently on one I liked (easy with the stone throwing! ::) ) but it didn't meet the sellers' reserve; and apparently by a significant distance as he didn't bother to contact me post the auction to see if a deal could be accomplished. :(
I think the Vette's are more of a commodity item in the market place as compared to the say Shelby's which seem to suffer from greater swing numbers in transactions.
And, to clarify my position on this Shelby sale: There is good to be had from an accurate discussion of what something is, particularly in the light of attempting educate the interested but less informed on the particular subject; but also to a great degree many of these old car subjects are solely whim participation events (aka. a hobby!), and here, if the seller is satisfied, and the buyer is happy, it was a good transaction. :)
Scott.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 14, 2021, 01:29:57 PM
I'd say it doesn't matter to most of us like me who watch in amusement that someone with that type of disposable income isn't smart enough to do some due diligence on a car they are buying.................
The issue or problem is this can "hurt" all of us and the hobby. We all hopefully understand that the wealth are likely driving the value of most of our cars and when one or more feel that they were sold something that they were not fully aware of they aren't happy, and he/she tells a few of their friends and they tell others. Next thing you know they are buying art, sail boats or that third or fourth home.
Memories of a poor purchase (will leave it at that) can last as long or longer as memories of an enjoyable one. Many of us can recall examples of this taking place - some of refer to those as "that guy" incidents
Yes we can't lead all the horses the horses to water nor make them drink but we also can't bring that horse back to life after they have perished from the lack of water.
If the buyer is as informed as possible personally at that point I agree - His money and choice but have not seen anything to suggest that so far. We'll see if and when they show up here
Quote from: pbf777 on September 14, 2021, 09:45:38 PM
And, to clarify my position on this Shelby sale: There is good to be had from an accurate discussion of what something is, particularly in the light of attempting educate the interested but less informed on the particular subject; but also to a great degree many of these old car subjects are solely whim participation events (aka. a hobby!), and here, if the seller is satisfied, and the buyer is happy, it was a good transaction. :)
In general would agree, but when it this "happy" measured?
Is it when the purchase is made or when the new owner discovers exactly what they purchased?
Quote from: stephen_becker on September 14, 2021, 10:32:01 PM
Jeff, what are you the Dr. Phil of Shelby automobiles? I think you've driven your point home quite clearly and it seems to me that the seller/owner has put you in your place and told you that your opinion is just that, your opinion. Enough is enough - move on
Was just going to leave it as - It must have been a bad day at the virtual used car lot but
"Driven Home"?? With a single statement posted after forty four other posts. Or was it the reflective question that followed?
As for being put in my place you have to be kidding for an earlier post to have commented about my post that followed but yes an opinion just like everyone else. Last I checked opinions, including your and mine, are welcomed here.
Sure we will all move on when we're good and ready (unless the moderator chooses differently) don't think we need your permission :)
Or was that just your opinion?
OK, now you got me started. I consider J. Spengle a good friend. He has helped me tremendously on my 65.If everyone was like Jeff it would be a great place. So what is with the attitude Becker? I will be happy to give you my credentials.I own 2 68 KR s since 1972 and have been into Shelby's since 1969.How long have you been into these cars? I don't remember your name 50 yrs. ago. I will be happy to tell you everything wrong with this car. I don't give opinions but facts. We can take this PM .
Quote from: whiteykr on September 15, 2021, 03:23:29 AM
OK, now you got me started. I consider J. Spengle a good friend. He has helped me tremendously on my 65.If everyone was like Jeff it would be a great place. So what is with the attitude Becker? I will be happy to give you my credentials.I own 2 68 KR s since 1972 and have been into Shelby's since 1969.How long have you been into these cars? I don't remember your name 50 yrs. ago. I will be happy to tell you everything wrong with this car. I don't give opinions but facts. We can take this PM .
Stephen Becker has been a used Shelby(mostly) seller for as long as I can remember him. So anything negative talking about car sales could affect his business. That would be my take. Just my .02C
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 14, 2021, 09:49:01 PM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 14, 2021, 01:29:57 PM
I'd say it doesn't matter to most of us like me who watch in amusement that someone with that type of disposable income isn't smart enough to do some due diligence on a car they are buying.................
The issue or problem is this can "hurt" all of us and the hobby. We all hopefully understand that the wealth are likely driving the value of most of our cars and when one or more feel that they were sold something that they were not fully aware of they aren't happy, and he/she tells a few of their friends and they tell others. Next thing you know they are buying art, sail boats or that third or fourth home.
Memories of a poor purchase (will leave it at that) can last as long or longer as memories of an enjoyable one. Many of us can recall examples of this taking place - some of refer to those as "that guy" incidents
Yes we can't lead all the horses the horses to water nor make them drink but we also can't bring that horse back to life after they have perished from the lack of water.
If the buyer is as informed as possible personally at that point I agree - His money and choice but have not seen anything to suggest that so far. We'll see if and when they show up here
I will respectably disagree in that these are few and far between like about a decade ago a 70 Boss 302 popped at BJ for 195K and a better car the high 80s. Bob G commented that he gave his opinion the high 80s car to the buyer before the auction that that was the better car. Both orange. Boss 302 values have not been affected by that IMHO.
Quote from: 67 GT350 on September 14, 2021, 05:27:53 PM
As stated above the car went for 2X retail......something is up. Plain and simple and I do not care if that hurts feelings, I would not consider any car "over restored" if it is not right in places as mentioned, yet because the paint is better than it was from the factory it is called over restored...Then my Boss is over restored also? Yet it has repro floor pan, torque boxes, rear frame rails, front frame rails, wheel houses, etc.....will bring more than it is worth? where do I go??? Let see a Boss today is lucky to retrieve 70K, where do I go for my 140K?
One reason why I like Graveyard Carz. Mark "over restores" the cars(have you ever seen the quality of an original 60-70s Mopar? ) but he makes them as close to assy line correct. To me not being anything close to a mopar expert it appears that that marque has a LOT BETTER quality repo parts than the Ford community as most repo parts for Mustangs are junk. Been there, returned that(repo parts) bought NOS or excellent used. As has been stated this car to be over restored would mean a concours correct gold car but points taken off for better paint. This car is eye candy and probably why it broke the bank. I think too many people under estimate the power of perfect or near perfect black paint on a car-especially a Shelby. Again, JMHO and why? Studying the market and dealing with an appraisal friend I believe when I sold my 68 I got 5-10K more for it than I would have in it's original highland green and my car wasn't even a factory black car in 2013. Gary
It isn't the sale that hurts ANYTHING, it's the controversy such a drastic change creates.
Immediately people suspect fraud of some type with a success like this.
It is so out of the norm, so it appears very suspicious.
The sale of one car is not going to necessarily indicate a trend in one way or the other just as a high bid of $66k on a '67 GT350 isn't showing a sudden down trend.
Will I suspect that there will be a flood of KR's going to auction with much higher reserves? Absolutely. Will they sell? That remains to be seen.
Scott. Why worry about those upset about the success of your sale? They obviously weren't your market to begin with. Who knows exactly why they are so hurt? I don't get it.
You should be sitting there with the grin of the "Cheshire Cat".
To those of you who want to mark Scott as a witch, you are all sounding like Q-Anon. A 15 year old he/she sex worker from Bangkok or is that bang your cock with a conspiracy theory on absolutely everything and then some.
I thought we all heard the story of "Chicken Little" when we were small and realize the sky wasn't falling?
To those who insist on retaining the innocence of their youths, I offer this gem of wisdom from yesteryear. Is Scott a witch? "How can you tell a witch? You throw him in the water. If he drowns he isn't a witch. If floats he's a witch. Burn the witch!"
As far as a $200,000 KR being BAD for SAAC and the hobby in general and creating a blight on us, common Pete! You sound like OTC not wanting Amazon to move to her district because it will raise the value of the housing there to the point that her people will be forced out.
Do you live in an inverse function Universe like her?
Someone is missing the point here and it ain't me.
To play Devils Advocate here, two things, The Tilt Away: Maybe the person that owned the Car did not like that Option and switched it out (it happens) OR it needed work and the Parts were too expensive so they went the cheaper route and switched it out (it happens). Two, the Sell Price: Pick up any Hemmings, Autotrader or Autobuy Magazine and you will usually find several Boss 302's for sale in just about every color. It is super super rare that you will find a Black on Black KR for sell. That is what he has been looking for, for several Years and when one finally popped up for sale, he jumped on it because you don't know how long it will be before another one comes on the Market.
Quote from: stephen_becker on September 15, 2021, 07:42:00 AM
Very well thought out and written reply ShelbyDoug.
Well I almost called SHOTGUN! But some here might have thought that was a threat?
I'm still here reading...
Why? It won't be the last Shelby I bring to market nor was it the first. Did all this type of commentary occur when I was selling them 20 years ago for 1/4 the price? I suppose it was. The irony is, this EXACT mentality has happened so many times in my career I can't even count them. My former or still current world record results include, Riva wood boats, BMW M6, Lamborghini Countach, Mercedes 107 body conv., Military Humvees, various pieces of construction equipment, and many more. There is always a forum complaining about the new high sales result. And it ALWAYS comes from the entrenched old guard. Never the new to the space or freshly minted wealth persons. As in, slow down there young man, not so fast. Let me tell you why you shouldn't buy that car or pay that much. Put your dreams on hold and we'll find you a better car. Or, join us over here where we are the guardians of the value world for all things Shelby. We're the only ones who know and will flex when we want. What some of you fail to respect is, not everyone is drinking your "Originality is more valuable" Kool-Aid. All you have to do is look at the Resto-Mod market to see that.
My craft is presentation. I've made it a point to "Present" better than most of my competitors. I've never shied away from valuable guidance and over the last 20+ years have happily paid for it when possible. All I have EVER tried to do is present the facts.
Take your attitude hat off for one moment and think this through. What has this group done to offer guidance or knowledge before going to market? Because I tried. Is this the best you can do? Grind the platform, seller, presenter, buyer to a pulp then throw in suspicion in the end to cap it off?
If you want to be the great "Protectors" you claim, create a vetting solution. Bitching and accusing is not a solution. Here is my challenge, tell me specifically what you want me to do when the next Shelby lands in my care. I understand the wealth of knowledge and value you have collectively on this brand. But poke around a bit to discover how I have accomplished some unusual results in the presentation field.
Open your minds and look for common ground and solutions. The alternative isn't worth my time.
Quote from: stephen_becker on September 15, 2021, 07:55:46 AM
Careful ShelbyDoug or those in power here will remove you!
Where did you see that on Facebook?
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 15, 2021, 08:11:58 AM
I'm still here reading...
Open your minds and look for common ground and solutions. The alternative isn't worth my time.
OK, but you seem to be waisting a lot of it here. Let it go. You won.
So that's your reply?
You don't want to create solutions, just keep things the way they are?
If that is the consensus, I will offer it in my next presentation.
Reached out to the most knowledgeable Shelby group for guidance after my last sale but they weren't interested to assist.
By the way, I'm not trying to win.
Here's another one ...
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-shelby-gt500-6/
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 15, 2021, 08:35:38 AM
So that's your reply?
You don't want to create solutions, just keep things the way they are?
If that is the consensus, I will offer it in my next presentation.
Reached out to the most knowledgeable Shelby group for guidance after my last sale but they weren't interested to assist.
By the way, I'm not trying to win.
You seem to be looking for some sort of a medal? Save your effort. We don't do that here but we do know how to deal with trolls and if you keep pushing it you could be declared one and suffer the consequences.
You are not winning friends here. Don't you have something else to do?
Quote from: stephen_becker on September 14, 2021, 10:32:01 PM
Jeff, what are you the Dr. Phil of Shelby automobiles?
No Dr. Phil was an opinionated ass who doesn't really know what he's talking about.
Jeff on the other hand has more knowledge in his finger tip than most people on this forum could accumulate in a lifetime
Quote from: shelbydoug on September 15, 2021, 08:42:14 AM
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 15, 2021, 08:35:38 AM
So that's your reply?
You don't want to create solutions, just keep things the way they are?
If that is the consensus, I will offer it in my next presentation.
Reached out to the most knowledgeable Shelby group for guidance after my last sale but they weren't interested to assist.
By the way, I'm not trying to win.
You seem to be looking for some sort of a medal? Save your effort. We don't do that here but we do know how to deal with trolls and if you keep pushing it you could be declared one and suffer the consequences.
You are not winning friends here. Don't you have something else to do?
You've made your position very clear, no need to vote more than once. I'm hanging around for consensus.
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 15, 2021, 08:54:01 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on September 15, 2021, 08:42:14 AM
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 15, 2021, 08:35:38 AM
So that's your reply?
You don't want to create solutions, just keep things the way they are?
If that is the consensus, I will offer it in my next presentation.
Reached out to the most knowledgeable Shelby group for guidance after my last sale but they weren't interested to assist.
By the way, I'm not trying to win.
You seem to be looking for some sort of a medal? Save your effort. We don't do that here but we do know how to deal with trolls and if you keep pushing it you could be declared one and suffer the consequences.
You are not winning friends here. Don't you have something else to do?
You've made your position very clear, no need to vote more than once. I'm hanging around for consensus.
The voting results have been counted. We don't do recounts here.
Thank you sir.
First off, I'd like to welcome Scott as well. You will soon realize who the clicky high school bullies are here and I suspect you are realizing already. If you don't agree with them and kiss there narcissist butts, your flagged and stoned to death.
Secondly, I wish the comment about "this site needing an enema" wasn't deleted. It holds so true to all the higher than thou attitudes here and we all know who I'm talking about.
There are some very good points made here by many. What does it matter what a car sold for? 2 people really wanted this black on black 68 500KR and were willing to pay what they felt was a fair price to them. Cars of all types sell high and low everyday. There are great days in the market for some and bad days for some. It's business.
Why isn't anyone concerned and asking what bob's 1967 Shelby GT350 #0001 just recently sold for?! Maybe he got to much for his car also!
Quote from: Shelby Narcissist on September 15, 2021, 09:58:00 AM
First off, I'd like to welcome Scott as well. You will soon realize who the clicky high school bullies are here and I suspect you are realizing already. If you don't agree with them and kiss there narcissist butts, your flagged and stoned to death.
Secondly, I wish the comment about "this site needing an enema" wasn't deleted. It holds so true to all the higher than thou attitudes here and we all know who I'm talking about.
There are some very good points made here by many. What does it matter what a car sold for? 2 people really wanted this black on black 68 500KR and were willing to pay what they felt was a fair price to them. Cars of all types sell high and low everyday. There are great days in the market for some and bad days for some. It's business.
Why isn't anyone concerned and asking what bob's 1967 Shelby GT350 #0001 just recently sold for?! Maybe he got to much for his car also!
Keith buddy, you're back! You're pretending to be Keith Tony? Who says you're not a troll?
I love how opinions are welcome and appreciated till they aren't agreed with. Then the name calling flies.
Quote from: TLea on September 15, 2021, 10:53:32 AM
I love how opinions are welcome and appreciated till they aren't agreed with. Then the name calling flies.
Yeah, I know first hand what an A-Hole came over here to attack me for doing the Shelby Poker Chips to help get a Nonprofit I started off the ground (Hawks Friends).......I don't think he has been back since (only 8 Posts). Still doing the Poker Chips though.
There is a big smokescreen going on here because of everybody's name calling and trying to make it seem like the Concours crowd is a bunch of elitist. The truth of the matter is the car has some very suspicious things about it. The dash the fact that there's no tilt away hole in the a pillar plus a lot of very suspicious looking welds in the front bulkhead area it would be a disservice not to point this out to any perspective buyer. Re-bodies are real they exist there are even people here on the forum that have done them and they should be exposed for what they are. It's not narcissistic it's not out of spite it's just called integrity
Show some
Mr Lea is correct.
People are trying to make it about the money. Newsflash its not the first car to sell for that kind of money.
It's about the car.
Fact: The seller didnt show up here or contact SAAC until after the criticism started.
Unfortunately, integrity is lost on so many.
When should I show up for sentencing?
One of my more interesting observations through the years, loudest forum voices have no real names presented.
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 15, 2021, 02:22:37 PM
When should I show up for sentencing?
One of my more interesting observations through the years, loudest forum voices have no real names presented.
Completely off topic (haven't been keeping up with this thread or even taken a look at the car in question) but just wanted to interject that I've very much enjoyed your content on Obsessed Garage. Fun to watch your work.
Kind regards,
Vern
Thank you Vern,
We trying to share something I have found very useful in a very open way.
It looked to me like this thread did start out about the out-of- the-ordinary price paid for such a car that was not 100% correct and quickly spiraled into more. The seller did mention a few times in his comments that he reached out to an "expert" or two for advise and even offered to pay for their time to assess the car, but received no reply back to assist him. Who exactly did he reach out to? It sounds like the seller tried to do his due diligence before selling the car.
There would definitely be an issue for a buyer and seller of any car if the car has been re-bodied or fraudulently and knowingly mis-represented (I am not making any accusations about this particular GT500KR because I have never examined it in person or had any interest in it). As Mr. Lea stated, "Re-bodies are real they exist there are even people here on the forum that have done them and should be exposed for what they are". I agree that anyone who is guilty of this and knowingly represents a car for what it really isn't should be publicly exposed along with the car itself so the next seller/buyer are aware of what the car really is. We do not need people like this in the hobby.
It certainly is unfortunate that the integrity of some of these cars is lost by "armchair critics". When something on a car is in question, it may deserve an in person inspection by an expert to answer and/or disqualify any assumptions made about the car.
Just my 2 cents.
Quote from: George Schalk on September 15, 2021, 02:40:09 PM
It looked to me like this thread did start out about the out-of- the-ordinary price paid for such a car that was not 100% correct and quickly spiraled into more. The seller did mention a few times in his comments that he reached out to an "expert" or two for advise and even offered to pay for their time to assess the car, but received no reply back to assist him. Who exactly did he reach out to? It sounds like the seller tried to do his due diligence before selling the car.
There would definitely be an issue for a buyer and seller of any car if the car has been re-bodied or fraudulently and knowingly mis-represented (I am not making any accusations about this particular GT500KR because I have never examined it in person or had any interest in it). As Mr. Lea stated, "Re-bodies are real they exist there are even people here on the forum that have done them and should be exposed for what they are". I agree that anyone who is guilty of this and knowingly represents a car for what it really isn't should be publicly exposed along with the car itself so the next seller/buyer are aware of what the car really is. We do not need people like this in the hobby.
It certainly is unfortunate that the integrity of some of these cars is lost by "armchair critics". When something on a car is in question, it may deserve an in person inspection by an expert to answer and/or disqualify any assumptions made about the car.
Just my 2 cents.
Very Well Said. 8)
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 15, 2021, 02:22:37 PM
When should I show up for sentencing?
One of my more interesting observations through the years, loudest forum voices have no real names presented.
Actually my name is very clear. TLea is Tim Lea. I am and always have been very transparent. Do you want my phone number, my email address. The names of my children?
Your sentencing, shows your ignorance. It is about the car not about you. You sold The car and got a good price for it. Congratulations I wish you the best. I still have reservations about the car (not you). If I saw the car in person I might feel different.
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 15, 2021, 02:22:37 PM
When should I show up for sentencing?
One of my more interesting observations through the years, loudest forum voices have no real names presented.
Don't get too worked up over the trolling here, the SAAC forum went down the drain a while ago. The critics for the most part have nothing but their opinions, ask them to post their cars for comparison.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 15, 2021, 04:48:18 AM
Quote from: whiteykr on September 15, 2021, 03:23:29 AM
OK, now you got me started. I consider J. Spengle a good friend. He has helped me tremendously on my 65.If everyone was like Jeff it would be a great place. So what is with the attitude Becker? I will be happy to give you my credentials.I own 2 68 KR s since 1972 and have been into Shelby's since 1969.How long have you been into these cars? I don't remember your name 50 yrs. ago. I will be happy to tell you everything wrong with this car. I don't give opinions but facts. We can take this PM .
Stephen Becker has been a used Shelby(mostly) seller for as long as I can remember him. So anything negative talking about car sales could affect his business. That would be my take. Just my .02C
From what I see and know of Stephen, he seems to be a straight shooter, he only deals with quality. Will not touch a car with bad history. In other words, if you buy something from him, IT IS RIGHT. (MY opinion)
I probably was into Shelbys before a lot of people here, so what? Being a SAAC member or not really does not matter. I would bet there are many out there who have nice cars that could care less how long they were involved. Take a pill, people, and allow opinions to be expressed.
Since you quoted me I will respond to you 67 GT 350.
When a friend of mine is attacked ie Jeff Speegle I will defend him.I said what I had to say to S Becker.
The fact that I have owned my cars so long is called credibility. I do all of my own work and I am very knowledgeable on KRs . So when you say ,so what , you don't know what you are talking about. I would test what I know on KRs against you anytime.
You are right that many people could care less how long someone has owned a car. But when opinions are expressed that are wrong or hurt people , they need to be addressed.
Maybe you should take a pill because nothing on this forum would cause me to take a pill.
I will not waste anymore time with you publicly. If you want to continue this we can do it via PM.
By the way, my name is Brad Sanders for transparency.
Quote from: 67 GT350 on September 15, 2021, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 15, 2021, 04:48:18 AM
Quote from: whiteykr on September 15, 2021, 03:23:29 AM
OK, now you got me started. I consider J. Spengle a good friend. He has helped me tremendously on my 65.If everyone was like Jeff it would be a great place. So what is with the attitude Becker? I will be happy to give you my credentials.I own 2 68 KR s since 1972 and have been into Shelby's since 1969.How long have you been into these cars? I don't remember your name 50 yrs. ago. I will be happy to tell you everything wrong with this car. I don't give opinions but facts. We can take this PM .
Stephen Becker has been a used Shelby(mostly) seller for as long as I can remember him. So anything negative talking about car sales could affect his business. That would be my take. Just my .02C
From what I see and know of Stephen, he seems to be a straight shooter, he only deals with quality. Will not touch a car with bad history. In other words, if you buy something from him, IT IS RIGHT. (MY opinion)
I probably was into Shelbys before a lot of people here, so what? Being a SAAC member or not really does not matter. I would bet there are many out there who have nice cars that could care less how long they were involved. Take a pill, people, and allow opinions to be expressed.
Let me be clear here on my post you quoted me: I was responding to a guy who didn't know who Stephen was it appears. I basically said who he was(longtime Shelby dealer). I've seen his cars for sale for decades. Talked to him before. Do not
TAKE my post as a negative comment against Steve. It isn't. The second part is true to any classic car dealer when it comes to sales. Gary
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...
What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand?
Please do not just say call someone who knows. I tried that...
A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices. There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.
I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again. With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others. Which applies to everyone IMHO
I'll take another shot too...there is no such thing as a SAAC Certified expert. Recommendations are made on previous personal experience.
How you reach someone who is willing to come and evaluate the car, is willing to do so AND is qualified is questionable.
You may be best off with one of the very experienced MCA, SAAC Concourse Judges versed in your model?
Perhaps place a wanted ad for such or a post in the section you are interested in, i.e., 68 KR etc.
SOME of them however are the ones that shall we say, you have been debating with here or are seemingly somewhat at odds with. There is one that I can think of but avoided the entire thread. He would be the major consideration if it were me looking for an academic evaluation.
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 09:25:48 AM
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...
What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand?
Please do not just say call someone who knows. I tried that...
A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices. There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.
I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again. With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others. Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary
Thanks, others may be at odds with me. But I am not with them. Everyone has something to contribute, how that is offered is sometimes off putting.
Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective on the matter. If you put yourself in any person's position be it a broker, dealer, family member, or not passionate corporate seller, you can certainly see the issue here. No definitive source or process to pursue, unquantified costs needing case by case negotiation and potential availability challenges of multiple persons. Some more than others on both points, and the difficulty of bias toward or against anything or anyone. Then there is the inter-member challenges where a person is chosen but some in the community question their knowledge or assessments.
It's a minefield. And regardless of your efforts over the past 45 years as a total gearhead and passionate brand person, your integrity WILL be challenged.
:-\
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 16, 2021, 11:02:14 AM
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 09:25:48 AM
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...
What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand?
Please do not just say call someone who knows. I tried that...
A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices. There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.
I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again. With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others. Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary
Gary,
Please take a minute to read the tilt-away portion of the comments. I learned so much from that experience and immediately documented there is a small divot right where that switch should be. Under the paint. The response by one of the BaT commenters seemed on target and made sense. They are complicated contraptions to keep working and many have elected to replace them with tilt only versions.
Take note of my initial response time of 11:09 pm Sept. 1st. Then maybe read the exchange afterwards and through the next morning for additional insight to how I respond.
With regard to date coded panels. Tell me where to look, and what panels you found unusual. The car hasn't left our facility yet and I am curious. Since I personally Dryce cleaned the entire underside, I was very impressed with what I saw. Please consider also that I trained people in paintless dent removal in the late 1980s and have a keen eye still. Even at 59.
But mostly, I want to thank you for taking the time to communicate with me constructively.
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 11:12:08 AM
Thanks, others may be at odds with me. But I am not with them. Everyone has something to contribute, how that is offered is sometimes off putting.
Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective on the matter. If you put yourself in any person's position be it a broker, dealer, family member, or not passionate corporate seller, you can certainly see the issue here. No definitive source or process to pursue, unquantified costs needing case by case negotiation and potential availability challenges of multiple persons. Some more than others on both points, and the difficulty of bias toward or against anything or anyone. Then there is the inter-member challenges where a person is chosen but some in the community question their knowledge or assessments.
It's a minefield. And regardless of your efforts over the past 45 years as a total gearhead and passionate brand person, your integrity WILL be challenged.
:-\
there is the saying "jack of all trades ,master of none". That could easily be put forth in the car industry. You are a dealer. I have seen some of the cars you have sold on BaT and that is just a small snapshot of decades in your business. I don't know you but because of your time and the spectrum of cars you sell you know quality but maybe do not know the ins and outs of every marque you sell. Here, you are dealing with those who are mostly geared to one or 2 marques that they have educated themselves on for decades. I have owned around 30 first Gen Mustangs the most being 1969. I know a lot about 1969s. I have owned 2 first gen Camaros and until recently knew a little about them but gaining more knowledge through BaT on them. I don't need an expert to buy a 69 or 70 Mustang or Shelby but might for a 69 Z/28 or a 67 Vette. I, for one, am not at odds with you. Nor am I with the buyer. Covid and Crypto it appears has brought a buying frenzy in the last year. Cars that brought money we would have never seen a few years ago. That's the market these days. Gary
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 16, 2021, 11:02:14 AM
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 09:25:48 AM
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...
What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand?
Please do not just say call someone who knows. I tried that...
A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices. There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.
I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again. With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others. Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary
Alleging it's a re-body is a pretty heavy accusation on a public forum with no proof. You even directed people to this discussion on the BAT comment section below the auction. The seller posted a photo of the vin under the tag prior to restoration, and that car appears to have a long time known history in SAAC (1795 is in my 1987 registry with the owners information). There are several date codes that can be seen in the photo's, are you saying they don't match the production date of the car? Do you know something we don't?
Taking a birds eye view of this, it should be obvious that a high percentage of members/contributors here give feedback with no expectation of anything in return. There are those with decades of experience that share their knowledge freely. There are differing interests, some like concours, some like racing, some like modified cars. There is always room for everyone in the club/hobby. We all need each other to keep the club/hobby moving forward.
Lashing out and blaming others for inadequacies will not go very far as seen here and turns things to crap in an instant. There are some legitimate concerns about the body of the KR that should be taken seriously. Nobody here likes to see a deal go sour as most times when that happens, those involved become bitter and turn their interests elsewhere.
As for how to learn more and doing a better job at representing/describing cars for sale... there is a wealth of knowledge here from others that offer cars up for sale on a regular basis. Taking collective feedback from various sellers is the most sensible approach with that. Otherwise, the best way to learn about the finer details is to do restoration or partial restoration work, come to national shows and observe well done cars, get involved in the judging, begin a photo collection of original/restored cars to refer back to, get involved in the forum... these are just a few of the things one can do.
There IS NO pleasing everyone.
I'm an Architect, a Contractor and a Master Carpenter. Everyone is a critic. EVERYONE.
If you got paid, got all your money and didn't get sued, move on. You are a success.
For the past 50 years I withdraw myself to my own garage and shop. It locks from the inside. I don't care who likes or dislikes what I did and why. Period.
Oh...and I'm married 35 years...I've adjusted to disappoint. ;)
I understand that you want to do the right thing BUT you will NEVER get everyone else to agree. Did I say NEVER? Five year olds will question why you didn't use purple or why the nails you used are so big.
Sexy models will question why you need a 7 liter engine and a 4 speed STICK?
In my case I've always been TOO. Too tall. Too short. Too smart. Too Dumb...and on and on and on, etc, etc. etc.
You've won. You win when you have accomplished what you set out to do, oh. and I'm TOO old to. I'm 72. Lot's of documentation to go along with what I stated.
My advice
Quote from: 427hunter on September 16, 2021, 11:34:52 AM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 16, 2021, 11:02:14 AM
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 09:25:48 AM
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...
What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand?
Please do not just say call someone who knows. I tried that...
A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices. There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.
I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again. With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others. Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary
Alleging it's a re-body is a pretty heavy accusation on a public forum with no proof. You even directed people to this discussion on the BAT comment section below the auction. The seller posted a photo of the vin under the tag prior to restoration, and that car appears to have a long time known history in SAAC (1795 is in my 1987 registry with the owners information). There are several date codes that can be seen in the photo's, are you saying they don't match the production date of the car? Do you know something we don't?
Why don't you reread my post. I am NOT alleging a rebody. Can you read English? I was pointing out how to spot out inconsistencies as date coded sheet metal to spot a REBODY.
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 11:18:49 AM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 16, 2021, 11:02:14 AM
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 09:25:48 AM
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...
What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand?
Please do not just say call someone who knows. I tried that...
A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices. There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.
I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again. With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others. Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary
Gary,
Please take a minute to read the tilt-away portion of the comments. I learned so much from that experience and immediately documented there is a small divot right where that switch should be. Under the paint. The response by one of the BaT commenters seemed on target and made sense. They are complicated contraptions to keep working and many have elected to replace them with tilt only versions.
Take note of my initial response time of 11:09 pm Sept. 1st. Then maybe read the exchange afterwards and through the next morning for additional insight to how I respond.
With regard to date coded panels. Tell me where to look, and what panels you found unusual. The car hasn't left our facility yet and I am curious. Since I personally Dryce cleaned the entire underside, I was very impressed with what I saw. Please consider also that I trained people in paintless dent removal in the late 1980s and have a keen eye still. Even at 59.
But mostly, I want to thank you for taking the time to communicate with me constructively.
I took some of your pics and circled the areas of sheet metal you can easily check now or on future cars you may purchase and what some here were talking about. I can post the pics or send them to you in an email Scott. Your call. Can't post pics in messages. You can message me your email and I'll contact you. Just trying to help and to be clear I am NOT saying it was a rebody like 427 Hunter accused me of. Gary
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 16, 2021, 11:44:29 AM
Quote from: 427hunter on September 16, 2021, 11:34:52 AM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 16, 2021, 11:02:14 AM
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 09:25:48 AM
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...
What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand?
Please do not just say call someone who knows. I tried that...
A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices. There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.
I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again. With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others. Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary
Alleging it's a re-body is a pretty heavy accusation on a public forum with no proof. You even directed people to this discussion on the BAT comment section below the auction. The seller posted a photo of the vin under the tag prior to restoration, and that car appears to have a long time known history in SAAC (1795 is in my 1987 registry with the owners information). There are several date codes that can be seen in the photo's, are you saying they don't match the production date of the car? Do you know something we don't?
Why don't you reread my post. I am NOT alleging a rebody. Can you read English? I was pointing out how to spot out inconsistencies as date coded sheet metal to spot a REBODY. Yeah, I'll report your lack of understanding and accusations!
There is no lack of understanding here, your diatribe on car based on your observation and then statements on the lower value of re-bodies is called "context".
Quote from: 427hunter on September 16, 2021, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 16, 2021, 11:44:29 AM
Quote from: 427hunter on September 16, 2021, 11:34:52 AM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 16, 2021, 11:02:14 AM
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 09:25:48 AM
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...
What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand?
Please do not just say call someone who knows. I tried that...
A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices. There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.
I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again. With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others. Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary
Read Scott's post above:
Alleging it's a re-body is a pretty heavy accusation on a public forum with no proof. You even directed people to this discussion on the BAT comment section below the auction. The seller posted a photo of the vin under the tag prior to restoration, and that car appears to have a long time known history in SAAC (1795 is in my 1987 registry with the owners information). There are several date codes that can be seen in the photo's, are you saying they don't match the production date of the car? Do you know something we don't?
Why don't you reread my post. I am NOT alleging a rebody. Can you read English? I was pointing out how to spot out inconsistencies as date coded sheet metal to spot a REBODY. Yeah, I'll report your lack of understanding and accusations!
There is no lack of understanding here, your diatribe on car based on your observation and then statements on the lower value of re-bodies is called "context".
Read his asking what to do in the red. My answers and plausible reasons. Most rebodies come from rust free cars. This car appears to have had apron work done which generally would make no sense on a rebody. I know what I meant when I posted and was trying to help. You are trying to put word or accusations on me and that comes from your last of ability to understand when someone tells you what they were doing and you cannot comprehend that. SMH. I will type SLOWLY for you....
I am not accusing this car of being a rebody. I could only even come to an understanding like that by physically inspecting the car or from date codes given to me from a car. I have not seen one or done the other. SMH
I'm trying to learn, like what happened with the Tilt-Away wheel concern. I love that kind of thing!
I had a high level 428 CJ Cougar back in 2005. I learned from that car that all 428 blocks did not necessarily get stamped on the back of the block. But could be!
What I want to learn is how the panel dates can match or might not.
Regarding tilt away all 68 Shelbys built after 12/1/67 had it and would therefore have the hole. Never could be eliminated because it was problematic. Also just to be clear no one is forcing integrity because of less than perfect workmanship. Integrity only comes in to play with shenanigans which several have posted there are some things that raise an eyebrow. Not an accusation just worthy of investigating Curious who you contacted on forum for inspection? I never got a call. I might know a little about 68s
Let me attempt to respond - sure it will not be perfect
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 01:13:57 PM
I'm trying to learn, like what happened with the Tilt-Away wheel concern. I love that kind of thing!
I had a high level 428 CJ Cougar back in 2005. I learned from that car that all 428 blocks did not necessarily get stamped on the back of the block. But could be!
Please consider that its easy to lump all 428CJ installed at about 6 different plants in the same lump. Details like where the VIN was stamped with be a plant specific one so one would not want to compare a Dearborn built Cougar to what was the practice at NJ or another year. Or the other way around
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 16, 2021, 01:13:57 PMWhat I want to learn is how the panel dates can match or might not.
In general, for this sort of things, people are focusing on panels that make up the uni-body. The panels that make up that body arrived at the car assembly plants not as ones and twos but in greater numbers with dates stamped one the vast majority of them
Since no supplying plant wanted allot of extra inventory sitting around the parts were stamped, boxed, crated, palletized and so on into groups and roll out on to rail cars that delivered them to the car assembly plant. Panels were made based on need - example since both coupes and fastbacks most years were made in greater numbers than say, passenger side fastback trunk lid support panels.
On the line as a crate, stack ..... of panels were used up and as the last stack got used up the next stack was moved into its place to build the next body.
So what we get for the next 50-200 (just an example) of like cars is panels all dated with the same date code or off by a day. Other panels - other dates.
These date groups help form a pattern that can be documented and compared.
Sometimes the worker placing the date ingot in the stamping mold got it wrong (up side down, incorrect pattern or impossible date) but even those show up as a micro pattern in production and is trackable based on my data. In my training you look at the total picture of all date collected and which panels they were found on to see if any pattern emerges and what that pattern may suggest or document.
Will say that just about every cars seems to have one "odd" duck panel date that makes you scratch your head but sometimes this turns out later to be indicative of something else like a new micro pattern.
Hope that was understandable. Surely its not perfect but hope it helps explain based on my studies and understanding from Ford documents, plant managers and workers.
As far as asking and getting help sorry you didn't get the response you were looking for when you built the car or after. Often many of the people that could help own shops and don't have time to assist as much as they would like. There are a handful of others that hopefully would as it appears you needed some additional help during the assembly of the car to address things and or after to correct things. Not sure if you were looking for in person help the virus has kept many close to home by their choosing. It surely complicated things like travel and other related things related to personal health and those around them.
Since we seem to have wrestled this thread back on track...
Checking sheetmetal date codes on a KR is pretty much a waste of time, considering about 95% of Mustangs pre-date the KR build dates.
Definitely not something that should be tried by someone without an extensive 1968 Shelby database.
The absence/presence of date codes is probably more of what is in play here... not necessarily how they line up the the Ford production date of the car.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on September 16, 2021, 04:09:36 PM
The absence/presence of date codes is probably more of what is in play here... not necessarily how they line up the the Ford production date of the car.
Of course the subject of panel dating would go hand in hand when looking at a car with panel attachment details
Quote from: Coralsnake on September 16, 2021, 03:39:38 PM
Checking sheetmetal date codes on a KR is pretty much a waste of time, considering about 95% of Mustangs pre-date the KR build dates.
Unless it turns up dates on one or more panels that would not be expected.
Of course the subject of panel dating would go hand in hand when looking at a car with panel attachment details. As well as panel features that may have changed over a period of time depending on what year and make you were looking at. Same basic idea behind other panel details that one would not expect to find on a car from the KR period of production
I just wanted to take a moment to thank a few members for talking with me today.
It was very helpful and exciting to learn about the apron number being present on the Passenger side too! And yes, the last 4 digits were peaking out from the front fender. They match the car's number and the photo from the driver's side taken at restoration.
Nice to meet you folks. 😊
Scott,
You have some of the best 68 Shelby people on here to consult with. I also offer my assistance if you need it.
Brad
Quote from: whiteykr on September 17, 2021, 05:46:21 AM
Scott,
You have some of the best 68 Shelby people on here to consult with. I also offer my assistance if you need it.
Brad
I couldn't agree more. Having talked with several of them yesterday!
Thanks Brad
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 14, 2021, 02:26:13 PM
Okay ladies and gentlemen, before you start torturing me...
Please understand that my first car was a 1971 Mustang Mach 1 bought in 1977 for $3,200. 351 C, 4 spd, AC, ram air, green with black sport int. Then a 1975 Euro Pantera in 1983 for $16k, and then a 1978 F150 short box 4x4 for 1984. So I'm a Ford guy all the way.
I spent over 3 months preparing for this BaT offering. I contacted two people in your direct community to fully understand what this car was. Even paid one to come look at the car. I won't name them, they know who they are. One actually told me they knew the history but never got back to me what they knew. I finally gave up. Did the best I could with what I could find alone.
I stated early in the commentary this was an OVER restored car. You folks use the term "Concours" where I believe you would be better served saying "Judged". The level of finishes on this car are absolutely WAY past factory. I have a close friend from Iowa who has an original 1969 Mustang Mach 1 his father bought new. I know what they should look like.
The bizarre reality in reading this thread is the complete disregard for resto-mod Shelby cars that bring $300k and more. Do you see that originality desire is an experience for some not all? If you want a documented original car, then buy it. If you want a different ownership experience and find those buying opportunities are fewer, you have to pay more. I'm certain we all agree different people desire different things and experiences. The person that bought this car had a black/black KR on his bucket list for a very long time. Are you really going to disparage his acquisition because it doesn't fit your desires? Just because he isn't interested in judging?
Why don't you folks spend some energy offering an objective vetting process for those like myself who would be happy to pay for it before offering a car? Instead of armchair complaining how the rest of the world is wrong. Or worse, accusing me of shill bidding. My passionate car wife of 40 years and I found that incredibly offensive and distasteful. Especially coming from Ford people. We've been nothing but champions for the brand these past 40+ years.
Absolutely very well said ++1 ;)
Quote from: Scott_Ales on September 15, 2021, 08:11:58 AM
I'm still here reading...
Why? It won't be the last Shelby I bring to market nor was it the first. Did all this type of commentary occur when I was selling them 20 years ago for 1/4 the price? I suppose it was. The irony is, this EXACT mentality has happened so many times in my career I can't even count them. My former or still current world record results include, Riva wood boats, BMW M6, Lamborghini Countach, Mercedes 107 body conv., Military Humvees, various pieces of construction equipment, and many more. There is always a forum complaining about the new high sales result. And it ALWAYS comes from the entrenched old guard. Never the new to the space or freshly minted wealth persons. As in, slow down there young man, not so fast. Let me tell you why you shouldn't buy that car or pay that much. Put your dreams on hold and we'll find you a better car. Or, join us over here where we are the guardians of the value world for all things Shelby. We're the only ones who know and will flex when we want. What some of you fail to respect is, not everyone is drinking your "Originality is more valuable" Kool-Aid. All you have to do is look at the Resto-Mod market to see that.
My craft is presentation. I've made it a point to "Present" better than most of my competitors. I've never shied away from valuable guidance and over the last 20+ years have happily paid for it when possible. All I have EVER tried to do is present the facts.
Take your attitude hat off for one moment and think this through. What has this group done to offer guidance or knowledge before going to market? Because I tried. Is this the best you can do? Grind the platform, seller, presenter, buyer to a pulp then throw in suspicion in the end to cap it off?
If you want to be the great "Protectors" you claim, create a vetting solution. Bitching and accusing is not a solution. Here is my challenge, tell me specifically what you want me to do when the next Shelby lands in my care. I understand the wealth of knowledge and value you have collectively on this brand. But poke around a bit to discover how I have accomplished some unusual results in the presentation field.
Open your minds and look for common ground and solutions. The alternative isn't worth my time.
Another Very well said!!