SAAC Forum

The Cars => GT40 - Original/Mk V => Topic started by: 6R07mi on September 27, 2021, 01:05:58 PM

Title: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: 6R07mi on September 27, 2021, 01:05:58 PM
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=251.msg123410#msg123410 (http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=251.msg123410#msg123410)

Discussion from a different topic was regarding MK-IV turbine wheels vs the 6 spoke "JWA/BRM wheels"

I had an opportunity to visit The Henry Ford and view the new display "Racing in America".

J5 has the revised front brake cooling arrangement used at Le Mans, i.e. removed cooling port in the front body, moved the hose pickup to the back panel of the radiator outlet,
thereby picking up the "warmed" air coming out of the radiator, the wheel turbine effect would draw the air thru the rotor and exit out the wheel vanes.

This photo is the LH rear, the RH side is not viewable without getting into trouble with the staff!

just informational to the discussion

regards,
jim p
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on September 27, 2021, 01:43:00 PM
The wheels on J5 are the original design for the J car and were on J2 when Miles was killed. J1 was cut up after J2 crashed to try and figure out what went wrong it also had these wheels. J5 only ran one race LeMans 67. 2 Shelby MKIVs finished and one didn't all the HM and JW (Mirage 1) were DNF. The Mirage was a retake of the original MKI with revised roof, lighter weight and a SBF (5.7L). They used the 6 spoke wheels.

Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: Side-Oilers on September 27, 2021, 03:15:32 PM
So, were those turbine wheels where the design of the 10-spokes came from?   

Did they pre-date the 10s on the 1966 cars?
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on September 27, 2021, 04:35:01 PM
So, were those turbine wheels where the design of the 10-spokes came from?   

Did they pre-date the 10s on the 1966 cars?

I'd say the 10 spokes were first - winter/spring of 65 for 1966 year builds. Now you've got me wondering who designed each? Shelby for the Mustangs? Ford for the MKIV? What company cast and machined each design?
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: propayne on September 27, 2021, 04:42:13 PM
Didn't Kar Kraft come up with those wheels?

- Phillip
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on September 27, 2021, 09:31:53 PM
Didn't Kar Kraft come up with those wheels?
I don't know unless somebody comes up with the design/engineering drawings

https://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/newsroom/2019/03/kar-kraft-s-ford-performance-story.html

http://www.auslot.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13458-kar-kraft/

Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: propayne on September 27, 2021, 09:56:56 PM
Figured I must have read something to that effect in my copy of the Kar-Kraft book by Charlie Henry.

According to that, those turbine wheels were designed by Ed Hull, a Ford engineer who worked with Klaus Arning and who moonlighted (moonlit?) at Kar-Kraft in the evenings while keeping his day job at Ford.

- Phillip
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: shelbydoug on September 28, 2021, 06:48:56 AM
I would have guessed Phil Remington.
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: 6R07mi on September 28, 2021, 10:55:19 AM
Figured I must have read something to that effect in my copy of the Kar-Kraft book by Charlie Henry.

According to that, those turbine wheels were designed by Ed Hull, a Ford engineer who worked with Klaus Arning and who moonlighted (moonlit?) at Kar-Kraft in the evenings while keeping his day job at Ford.

- Phillip

+1
that was my understanding also

jim p
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: Dan Case on September 28, 2021, 05:30:05 PM
Didn't Kar Kraft come up with those wheels?
I don't know unless somebody comes up with the design/engineering drawings

https://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/newsroom/2019/03/kar-kraft-s-ford-performance-story.html

http://www.auslot.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13458-kar-kraft/

Off topic, sorry, but the 1970 Boss 429 shown in the lead picture of the first link was the one we owned decades ago. Traded it and cash for our black Cobra.
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on September 28, 2021, 06:54:00 PM
Didn't Kar Kraft come up with those wheels?
I don't know unless somebody comes up with the design/engineering drawings

https://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/newsroom/2019/03/kar-kraft-s-ford-performance-story.html

http://www.auslot.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13458-kar-kraft/
I think the Boss 302 - first picture in 2nd article is the Smokey Yunick (my hero car builder) car.

Off topic, sorry, but the 1970 Boss 429 shown in the lead picture of the first link was the one we owned decades ago. Traded it and cash for our black Cobra.
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: Richstang on September 30, 2021, 11:24:25 PM
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=251.msg123410#msg123410 (http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=251.msg123410#msg123410)

Discussion from a different topic was regarding MK-IV turbine wheels vs the 6 spoke "JWA/BRM wheels"

I had an opportunity to visit The Henry Ford and view the new display "Racing in America".

J5 has the revised front brake cooling arrangement used at Le Mans, i.e. removed cooling port in the front body, moved the hose pickup to the back panel of the radiator outlet,
thereby picking up the "warmed" air coming out of the radiator, the wheel turbine effect would draw the air thru the rotor and exit out the wheel vanes.

This photo is the LH rear, the RH side is not viewable without getting into trouble with the staff!

just informational to the discussion

regards,
jim p

Here's a great photo (in the link) of the front brake ducting from the right side of the MKIV.
We can clearly see what Jim described as the air travels through the radiator to the inner surface of the brake rotor.
https://www.motorsportimages.com/photo/1017501872-24-hours-of-le-mans/1017501872/?race_type_id=0&search=1967%20Le%20Mans%2024%20&p=11


I have a question for the engineers reading this; (maybe this is what Jim tries to explain to us and I didn't get it)

With the image confirmed as the left rear tire (red knockoffs)…
If the wheel turbines are facing back on the top of the rim and forward on the bottom,
Wouldn’t the rim be expelling the hot air from the rotor?
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: shelbydoug on October 01, 2021, 09:03:50 AM
I think that what happens is that the aerodynamics of cars at extreme speed create a dead air scenario in the wheel wells?

Creating an air flow across the breaks helps maintain a temperature that at least does not boil the brake fluids. Maybe there is a 20° variation which keeps the brakes from burning up.

The way that I read it the fins are creating a flow from in to out and that is consistent with the ducting.

Since the heat from the radiator is in the 200 to 220° area and the brakes go to 700°  so even just a 20° drop helps.


There was a wind tunnel smoke test that I saw that indicates the motion of the tire/wheel assembly in itself will create a suction effect into the wheel well if the fender is vented.

That was an early '60s Ford of England test and is the thought of the Shelby brake ducting AND the indentation in the sides of even the Mustang terminating just in front of the rear wheel well is a continuation of that thought.

The point is, it didn't need to blow on the brakes, just vent cooler air into the wheel wells.


I do know as a fact that the Pantera GT4 factory race cars located an oil cooler in the right rear wheel well mounted to a louvered panel that used the motion of the wheel/tire to draw air across it. I have no idea how well it worked?

Racers don't being copycats and using someone else's ideas. They do not suffer from the  "not invented here syndrome".



I think that the Mk II GT40's had protruding scoops in the rear engine cover as the source for cooler air for the rear brakes and were sized to use a ram air effect as trivial as it might be in reality? I don't see those on the Mark IV.


As of recent NASCAR solutions have incorporated electric hair driers mounted to blow on the brakes during the race.

How well any of these solutions work you'd have to ask the engineering team but the fact that they keep changing to me indicates they still need better solutions.
Title: Re: MK-IV Wheels
Post by: Richstang on October 01, 2021, 06:13:08 PM
I think that what happens is that the aerodynamics of cars at extreme speed create a dead air scenario in the wheel wells?

Creating an air flow across the breaks helps maintain a temperature that at least does not boil the brake fluids. Maybe there is a 20° variation which keeps the brakes from burning up.

The way that I read it the fins are creating a flow from in to out and that is consistent with the ducting.

Since the heat from the radiator is in the 200 to 220° area and the brakes go to 700°  so even just a 20° drop helps.


There was a wind tunnel smoke test that I saw that indicates the motion of the tire/wheel assembly in itself will create a suction effect into the wheel well if the fender is vented.

That was an early '60s Ford of England test and is the thought of the Shelby brake ducting AND the indentation in the sides of even the Mustang terminating just in front of the rear wheel well is a continuation of that thought.

The point is, it didn't need to blow on the brakes, just vent cooler air into the wheel wells.


I do know as a fact that the Pantera GT4 factory race cars located an oil cooler in the right rear wheel well mounted to a louvered panel that used the motion of the wheel/tire to draw air across it. I have no idea how well it worked?

Racers don't being copycats and using someone else's ideas. They do not suffer from the  "not invented here syndrome".



I think that the Mk II GT40's had protruding scoops in the rear engine cover as the source for cooler air for the rear brakes and were sized to use a ram air effect as trivial as it might be in reality? I don't see those on the Mark IV.


As of recent NASCAR solutions have incorporated electric hair driers mounted to blow on the brakes during the race.

How well any of these solutions work you'd have to ask the engineering team but the fact that they keep changing to me indicates they still need better solutions.

Thanks Doug. I was wondering if anyone else saw it that way.