I have really never entered into a discussion regarding the values of 67 Shelby GT350 having the original engine or an engine with the correct casting numbers. It seems like most Shelby's had there engine replaced along the way. Any thoughts. In Judging is any of the casting numbers and build date of engines even considered? Does anyone have a comment on this subject?
As far as judging for in a National SAAC event yes castings numbers, dates and such are included in the scoring for the top most class. Same thing goes at some of the others - just depends.
For the classes that allow good and correct reproduction parts the same details are not included but if some other feature in the casting (shape, mounting points, ....) is different then you can expect a discussion and possible deduction.
Thank you for the post, What would be acceptable casting date range for a block for a Shelby that was built March 28 1967?
Thank you for your input.
I guess I would like to get an opinion if it would be acceptable to have an engine with a build casting
March 9 1967 and a car build date of March 28 1967?
I would think that might be a little short of the time from casting and perhaps maybe even to soon from build date.
Quote from: dhardiman on September 27, 2021, 04:59:19 PM
I guess I would like to get an opinion if it would be acceptable to have an engine with a build casting
March 9 1967 and a car build date of March 28 1967?
It doesn't sound like you are building the car for SAAC DIV I or MCA thoroughbred class where date codes ,VIN stamps and casting dates need to be in place . A car built to a award winning Bronze,Silver or Gold SAAC DIV II and MCA Trailer concours class are typically dramatically more correct then most car owners who aspire for assemblyline correct look. With that said those date code aspects are not looked at only the physical appearance of the part or assembly is expected to be as assemblyline. In other words the date codes will only matter to you in those class's. Given the engine is not original anyway it would not be a candidate for those date code expected class's anyway. I would be most concerned about getting all of the EXPECTED things right . Many people make the mistake of fixating on the nuance detail things and miss the typically easier to fix much more visible things. I caution you to not be that guy.
Quote from: dhardiman on September 27, 2021, 04:59:19 PM
I guess I would like to get an opinion if it would be acceptable to have an engine with a build casting
March 9 1967 and a car build date of March 28 1967?
It would help to know if you have a 350 or a 500 for comparison.
Quote from: dhardiman on September 27, 2021, 04:59:19 PM
I guess I would like to get an opinion if it would be acceptable to have an engine with a build casting
March 9 1967 and a car build date of March 28 1967?
Jeff, The car is listed above as a GT 350.
On the short end of the spectrum, but I think it's entirely possible.
Jon
Quote from: 1175 on September 27, 2021, 06:36:44 PM
Jeff, The car is listed above as a GT 350.
Sorry missed that in the original post
With that others in that production period (give or take a week or so) at San Jose have been found with casting dates for the block from Jan 67 from what I've collected
The casting date of the block and the build date of the engine and the build date of the "car at San Jose" and the completion date at Shelby American are all different dates - 4 dates.
With regards to the first two - casting date and engine build date on a K-code 289 HiPo these occurred in Cleveland Ohio.
The completed engine was then shipped to San Jose (near San Francisco) for installation into the car that although able to be driven off the assembly line still had to be shipped to Shelby American (Los Angeles) to be completed into a saleable car - '67 GT350. Not likely that the first 3 occurred in 19 days. (When you refer to the car build date are you referencing the San Jose build date or the Shelby completion date?)
As suggested by Jeff S... a much longer spread in dates is typical.
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 27, 2021, 07:06:43 PM
...With that others in that production period (give or take a week or so) at San Jose have been found with casting dates for the block from Jan 67 from what I've collected
To your initial question...
Quote from: dhardiman on September 27, 2021, 02:26:37 PM
I have really never entered into a discussion regarding the values of 67 Shelby GT350 having the original engine or an engine with the correct casting numbers.
It seems like most Shelby's had there engine replaced along the way. Any thoughts.
In Judging is any of the casting numbers and build date of engines even considered?
Does anyone have a comment on this subject?
Value of a car that has it's original engine (block?) vs not having the original, but having one with the correct casting date?Some buyers value (desire) original drivetrain and others the original sheet metal - doesn't seem to be a clear-cut issue. Typically the more original to the car is the most valuable as you are probably well aware. Trying to but a dollar amount to that is very difficult because then other issues/variables kick-in such as color, trans and more.
With regards to the last question in you opening post...
"...In Judging is any of the casting numbers and build date of engines even considered? ..."As you can see above - YES and depending on the organization and the judging class in that club the expected varies.
Aren't some, or most 1967 GT-350s also VIN stamped on the block ?
Quote from: oldcanuck on September 28, 2021, 10:52:00 AM
Aren't some, or most 1967 GT-350s also VIN stamped on the block ?
yes
Quote from: oldcanuck on September 28, 2021, 10:52:00 AM
Aren't some, or most 1967 GT-350s also VIN stamped on the block ?
I don't know the actual percentage but not every 67 GT 350 had a VIN on its block
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on September 28, 2021, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: oldcanuck on September 28, 2021, 10:52:00 AM
Aren't some, or most 1967 GT-350s also VIN stamped on the block ?
I don't know the actual percentage but not every 67 GT 350 had a VIN on its block
I've been told, by some of the acknowledged experts here, that when Bret states that not all 67 GT350 had a VIN on the block is true. My question....is why some were not stamped?
Quote from: Hockeylife on September 28, 2021, 12:13:31 PM
I've been told, by some of the acknowledged experts here, that when Bret states that not all 67 GT350 had a VIN on the block is true. My question....is why some were not stamped?
If this did take place then it was most likely a mistake/screwup similar to the misstamping of the unibody engine code on some 67's. Of course if it was more than one or two there would likely be a identifiable pattern so that someone outside of that "range" could not assume their engine got through without a stamp
Intended and as built seems to be an ongoing argument regarding 67's.
Jon
Hopefully the 67 registrar will chime in as I believe he has the
facts about why some of the 67 350's were not vin stamped.
Actually at one time I understood there was a problem with engine cams on the assembly line and they just replaced the entire block at the time.
I've had maybe fifty 67 GT 350's and I can almost tell if there's a VIN on the engine by just looking at the Shelby number.
However, I always go back to Dave. M.
Just my .02......
Bret
The difference in value is probably factored in the price already. You will pay a premium above that for matching numbers. 20% maybe
Judges dont look at casting numbers or date codes unless you are in the most elite class and that number of cars is so small its ridiculous . 99% of concours cars are never docked for date codes.
I think of it as being more desirable. That would come into play when there is a choice between purchases but you'd need to decide if it is worth the extra money.
Quote from: shelbydoug on September 28, 2021, 08:48:40 PM
I think of it as being more desirable. That would come into play when there is a choice between purchases but you'd need to decide if it is worth the extra money.
Or in some cases for some buyers eliminate a car all together from consideration. Just depends on the buyer
So why weren't 67 GT500 blocks ever stamped with a vin# like most of the Gt350's where,seems odd didn't they all come down the same assembly line?
Quote from: 68krrrr on September 28, 2021, 10:37:50 PM
So why weren't 67 GT500 blocks ever stamped with a vin# like most of the Gt350's where,seems odd didn't they all come down the same assembly line?
Both were installed on the San Jose and that is where (in the subassembly area for engines and transmissions) VINs were stamped.
Haven't seen anything from Ford in print stating why FE's were not stamped that year on that line
'67s just prove time and time again how unique they are to the entire Shelby line.
SJ could stamp the transmission but not the block.
This might just be how being located in California, Ford complied with requirements...or didn't...because, "oh wow man, this sucks!" ?
Feds? Who cares about Feds?
Not only the stamping thing but on the 500 you have a non-functional PCV because of the connection to the air cleaner.
Is that a US Federal regulation or a California one? Did the people in charge have just a house cleaning or quick food service background? "You want 'fries with that?"
The entire thing qualifies as bizarre.
In my 5 decades of playing with Shelbys and Cobra's, but not limited to as such;
basic deduct is around 25 -30 % right off the top.
many of my old clients/customers, walked when it was not a number matching car.
We get anal in our thoughts of date codes, repop parts etc.
But the heart, is the engine.
Respectfully
John
Quote from: Harris Speedster on September 29, 2021, 08:48:59 AM
In my 5 decades of playing with Shelbys and Cobra's, but not limited to as such;
basic deduct is around 25 -30 % right off the top.
many of my old clients/customers, walked when it was not a number matching car.
We get anal in our thoughts of date codes, repop parts etc.
But the heart, is the engine.
Respectfully
John
Sure but 25 to 30 % off of what?
Just tossing this out there...But, thought I'd heard the theory that k-code blocks were intended to be VIN stamped due to their limited warranty and maybe used, if needed for tracking/traceability, etc. purposes?
Quote from: 6T6/7 on September 29, 2021, 01:29:49 PM
Just tossing this out there...But, thought I'd heard the theory that k-code blocks were intended to be VIN stamped due to their limited warranty and maybe used, if needed for tracking/traceability, etc. purposes?
Stampings of VIN's also (possibly the initial intent) was done to hopefully reduce thief and made the engines and transmissions easier to track in those cases. That is why high performance transmissions were done before engines started to be done or both (low and high performance) were required to have them by the Fed. That effort was directly associated with thief in mind based on the documentation I have as well as people in the business at the time period
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 29, 2021, 03:47:12 PM
Quote from: 6T6/7 on September 29, 2021, 01:29:49 PM
Just tossing this out there...But, thought I'd heard the theory that k-code blocks were intended to be VIN stamped due to their limited warranty and maybe used, if needed for tracking/traceability, etc. purposes?
Stampings of VIN's also (possibly the initial intent) was done to hopefully reduce thief and made the engines and transmissions easier to track in those cases. That is why high performance transmissions were done before engines started to be done or both (low and high performance) were required to have them by the Fed. That effort was directly associated with thief in mind based on the documentation I have as well as people in the business at the time period
^^^+1
So if appx. 20% is a deduction for non-original engine, what about a transmission ? Either by itself or combined with a wrong engine ?
The deduct might have been a few years ago, but today that trend has changed. People are willing to pay 350k for a Eleanor type resto mod cars. Most of these Cobras- Shelbys were run hard and put away wet, with the bulk of them with replaced engines because of the enthusiasm for speed. Friends and associates that have been buying and selling as of lately have found if the car retains its period correct HIPO 289- PI 428- CJ - 427 with related correct engine parts that they are very happy with their rides. No one is crawling under it with a flashlight and creeper including its owners. There is a definite group that has to have the numbers, but that gets muddied because of the trend to re stamp the blocks... Sad but true, most chock it up to it was a performance car so it was meant to be driven in a spirited manor. Not your Mothers Falcon or Galaxie of the day.
Quote from: 427heaven on October 02, 2021, 10:31:17 AM
The deduct might have been a few years ago, but today that trend has changed. People are willing to pay 350k for a Eleanor type resto mod cars. Most of these Cobras- Shelbys were run hard and put away wet, with the bulk of them with replaced engines because of the enthusiasm for speed. Friends and associates that have been buying and selling as of lately have found if the car retains its period correct HIPO 289- PI 428- CJ - 427 with related correct engine parts that they are very happy with their rides. No one is crawling under it with a flashlight and creeper including its owners. There is a definite group that has to have the numbers, but that gets muddied because of the trend to re stamp the blocks... Sad but true, most chock it up to it was a performance car so it was meant to be driven in a spirited manor. Not your Mothers Falcon or Galaxie of the day.
Well said...
Remember...
Most buyers would rather have the land than the house
My 67' GT350 has a built date of February and all the engine is date coded Dec, 1966 (6M) Also. my block isn't stamped with vin but my trans is. Stamped on the bottom tab.
Hope that helps..
Quote from: FordGT on October 10, 2021, 11:04:17 PM
My 67' GT350 has a built date of February and all the engine is date coded Dec, 1966 (6M) Also. my block isn't stamped with vin but my trans is. Stamped on the bottom tab.
Casting or assembly date?
Having the original drive train in place is a plus but it also brings into question the reliability of it if it has not been completely rebuilt so it's difficult to put a number on it.
That is really going to be the buyer's call as to how much more to ask and the buyer as to how much more they are willing to pay for them.
Of course the seller would want to accentuate that as a positive, and it is, but the value may be seriously over inflated.
Slightly off topic, but relevant to value. Any car that had rust repair or body panels replaced is a larger reduction in value than unoriginal engine/transmission in my opinion. Replacement engines always fit the same as originals. Not true for floor pans, rear quarters, etc. Even if the panels fit, were they installed properly? Was some rust missed?
Also what about wrecked, clipped, repo fiberglass , repo parts and repo sheetmetal, repo or missing original tags and under fender body stamped #s ,rebodies etc. These are all factors to consider when placing a value on a car and i always try and have car on a lift to fully inspect it when i inspect car for a customer to buy or have restored and make a list of missing or wrong parts so as to put a better value price on the car.
Quote from: FordGT on October 10, 2021, 11:04:17 PM
My 67' GT350 has a built date of February and all the engine is date coded Dec, 1966 (6M) Also. my block isn't stamped with vin but my trans is.
Let the Registrar know the Shelby number and he can look the car up in the factory records. The engine assembly date on the front of the block is also important.
Dave
Lets start back at the very beginning, New guy asks a very simple question about values of a SHELBY with the engine replaced, then states most ,alot, many, what ever term you want to use have had engine changes. I would concur that most - many, have had engine changes. Then it was mentioned what if... REBODIED, CLIPPED, MISSING VIN NUMBERS, NEW VIN TAGS and a host of other things not mentioned by him? All good things to consider, but we went from an engine change, to an off the cliff rebody statement. BRET and ED are 2 guys in this hobby that are highly respected... One probably buys and sells more SHELBYS then anyone else and the other knows his correct parts. An engine change is not a big deal to most, a clipped car or other abnormalities is a different story.
427heaven,
I did not pay enough attention in this topic.
I confused it with the topic >>> Guy arguing about re-bodies and guys at the club being degraded about warning to stay away from such cars.
My fault, should probably cut this and paste it in that topic.
Respectfully,
John
I MOVED the reply to the re body topic.
Just a heads up, a matching numbers claim doesnt necessarily mean original engine. I recall a corvette specific dealer advertising in Hemmings and virtually all 50+ cars listed were "numbers matching". Virtually no attrition rate and a real head scratcher until you understand the difference in description.
Not sure how that could be - generic motors cars have the VIN stamped in the block. Illegal to reproduce that detail.
Quote from: trotrof1 on October 14, 2021, 09:32:30 AM
Just a heads up, a matching numbers claim doesnt necessarily mean original engine. I recall a corvette specific dealer advertising in Hemmings and virtually all 50+ cars listed were "numbers matching". Virtually no attrition rate and a real head scratcher until you understand the difference in description.
Im saying that re-stamped engines exist and the default of numbers matching doesnt clearly state original as built. So when pressing a seller on clarity it would be wise to be specific. This is when a professional inspector can be important. Caveat emptor.
In '67 (the year in question of this thread) I thought engines having the VIN stamped into them was not required - it was done (as pointed out in another post) by manufacturers' for warranty issues.
In 1968 it was mandated by that all manufacturers had to VIN stamp all blocks?
As we've discussed before there are many nuances in the hobby and one would always be better served to ask the person using terms like "numbers matching" means to the speaker or the one making the claim. Same thing goes for "restored" "rebuilt" "all original" "concours correct" and so on
Quote from: JD on October 14, 2021, 02:16:45 PM
In '67 (the year in question of this thread) I thought engines having the VIN stamped into them was not required - it was done (as pointed out in another post) by manufacturers' for warranty issues.
In 1968 it was mandated by that all manufacturers had to VIN stamp all blocks?
Prior to 68 it was the companies that set up their own rules as to how they would identify engine and transmissions in relationship to addressing warranty and auto thief deterrent needs and concerns. In 68 this changed when the federal government standardized for the identification of engine and transmissions for auto thief purposes. This does not include much older cars were the engines were stamped and the cars registration was tied to the engine VIN and not the bodies. Created allot of issues and problems when owners replaced or swapped engines :o
So it depends on which year your discussing and in turn who's requirements were being or not being met.
My original engine out of 6s843 sleeps in a closet wrapped up in a blanket on the main floor of my house. Current engine is a roller rocker late 80s 302 that came out of a drag car. If it blows up, I don't care. Original tucked away and safe.
Friend who was selling his 68 KR with the 69 engine had a bid reduced by 10% when he disclosed the issue to the buyer. Its on its way to Germany. Less then a week to sell.
Same with mine
When I purchased my 67 350 the original engine and 4 speed was removed
Wrapped in plastic and sits in a safe spot in the garage
Then had a nasty little 331 built from a 67 block
With a Holley sniper, 5 speed etc
Looks completely stock and no risk of damage to the original engine
Win win, with lots of Smokey tires
Quote from: deathsled on October 14, 2021, 03:39:19 PM
My original engine out of 6s843 sleeps in a closet wrapped up in a blanket on the main floor of my house. Current engine is a roller rocker late 80s 302 that came out of a drag car. If it blows up, I don't care. Original tucked away and safe.
Quote from: Bigblock on October 15, 2021, 03:20:17 PM
Friend who was selling his 68 KR with the 69 engine had a bid reduced by 10% when he disclosed the issue to the buyer. Its on its way to Germany. Less then a week to sell.
The closing details can always be a hurdle. I've had people WALK OUT of house closings reneging on the agreed purchase price.
Not only is the sale a hassle, with a car you can have people wanting their money back and threatening you with a gun.
At one time, payment in the US Army, the officer in charge put his firearm on the table in front of everyone and had two armed guards standing alongside him. Now, the buyer knows where you live and the reimbursement isn't $119 per month.