I saw a for sale ad posted here on the forum recently and got a chuckle out a comment the seller made . The price is 450K for a high placing at Monterey Historics vintage race prepared 65 GT350 .
With that said and all that that implies given the competition etc. The comment - "The car is currently ready to race or could easily be converted for street use." I suppose
easily is a relative term ::) . http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=1699.0;topicseen#msg14411 Some of those vintage prepared cars are stitched welded all over the unibody for rigidity. I wonder how many hundreds of hours that would take to reverse if you restored back to stock . Anyway I took it as a funny statement.
" relax,....my Dads got this ultimate set of tools... I can fix this."
Most all of the cars running at the historics are street cars with race tires,maybe some numbers,graphics and bigger cams,carbs etc. I believe that those are minor details of bringing back to stock condition. There are only a handful of guys that are running fully race prepped cars like Cobra Automotive does, and those mods are usually mindfull to get them back to stock if that is what the new owners whishes are. Then there are the few cobbled,hacked,butchered,altered cars that are true bad to the bone race cars and NO ONE cares about these cars anyway, those are the most fun to race.
Looks like the car has seen a number of changes over the years. More recently the exterior body looks closer to what it was originally than it once was. Only looked at it quickly and snapped a couple of pictures a few years ago when it was parked in the paddock at Monterey when we were there
To convert it back to a "street driven" car is one thing from a vintage racer. To convert it back to a completely stock assembly line car for the purpose of car shows (if that's the goal) is another. Why would one want to do the latter when it's race history is part of its history? It's a 2 digit car. Racing is part of the 1965 GT350's heritage and blood line. It doesn't lose any value in my book. It is what it is.
Would you do the same thing to 5019 if it were for sale? Granted 5S075 doesn't have the same type of race history as 5019. 5S048 was raced too, would you remove 048's 66 quarter windows? 5S111 I believe has Webers would you remove those?
Now if the car had been been modified and evolved to mid/late 70's GT-1/IMSA with tube frames, monster flares /extensions with spoilers and wings etc. then it's toast.
Just say'in my opinion.
Cheers,
~Earl J
Quote from: SFM5S000 on May 01, 2018, 10:19:40 PM
....................................
Now if the car had been been modified and evolved to mid/late 70's GT-1/IMSA with tube frames, monster flares /extensions with spoilers and wings etc. ........
But still just another part of its history ;)
Don't think, if it were mine, I could go back to the big flares on all for corner look - with the flat lips all around
Quote from: 427heaven on May 01, 2018, 09:50:17 PM
Most all of the cars running at the historics are street cars with race tires,maybe some numbers,graphics and bigger cams,carbs etc. I believe that those are minor details of bringing back to stock condition. There are only a handful of guys that are running fully race prepped cars like Cobra Automotive does, and those mods are usually mindfull to get them back to stock if that is what the new owners whishes are. Then there are the few cobbled,hacked,butchered,altered cars that are true bad to the bone race cars and NO ONE cares about these cars anyway, those are the most fun to race.
Without seeing the car and the mods it is hard to say for sure what it will take. I have wandered the pits at the Monterrey Historics dozens of times and what with my back ground can see how many of those cars are typically prepared . I guess you didn't read that it took second in the Shelby feature race. As I indicated in my initial post that implies a higher level of race prep then the street car with race tires plus a few mods that you imply they most all are. I think you are being naive if you believe that the discussion car is a street car with race tires if the race circumstances are to be believed. Of course you can believe what you want but given what I have seen as the typical competitive prepared Monterrey 65 GT350 the "easily converted back " struck me as funny because I think it would take a lot of work regardless of making a reliable street driver or restored to stock. Just me others are welcome to their own opinion.
It's as easy as writing another check. If you've got 450K to dump on a modified street car another 150 to convert it back to a street car shouldn't bother you. Of course then you'd end up with a $600,000 street car. Even Barrett Jackson couldn't sell that one for a profit.
I was googling around for some information and pictures on this car, and came across this site. The page looks to be from 2007/8 when it had just sold & asking price at the time was $249K (seems about right for that time). Lots of pictures and info on the various mods, etc.
https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/carintro.php?reqcardir=SH-350GT-5S075
I am sure this has been asked before but, here goes again.
Did ALL 1965 Shelby Mustangs have the GT 350 Emblem on the rear Panel? If not when did they start putting them on? Asking because I have Photos with them in place and the Car being discussed here does not have it installed. I tried posting both Photos but it says Folder is full.
Not to be disrespectful to those on this site because I hold all to a very high level of knowledge, but even before we saw pictures of that car I figured it would fit the mold of what typically races at these events. That is your typical HOPPED UP street car with fender flares, race tires,warmed up engine, and probably a good driver that runs against senior citizens that don't drive anywhere near their cars potential. That is what I like about old race cars because that's the way we did things 40-50 years ago. Today a well thought out-prepped car would run circles around it no matter if Mr Vogt is driving or any other wheel man is driving. If someone needed to pay 150 thousand dollars to fix its discrepancies they probably should take up kite flying or possibly ice curling something that doesn't require hand tools,thought and effort. This is just one mans opinion that tries to do the work himself, as opposed to just paying people to do everything
Quote from: tesgt350 on May 02, 2018, 11:07:10 AM
I am sure this has been asked before but, here goes again.
Did ALL 1965 Shelby Mustangs have the GT 350 Emblem on the rear Panel? If not when did they start putting them on? Asking because I have Photos with them in place and the Car being discussed here does not have it installed. I tried posting both Photos but it says Folder is full.
Answering your question; No, not all had the tail panel emblem (as I recall it was a supply issue) 5010 did not due to the t-bird lights (prototype) 5019 has "Tred" in place of GT350 (TRED= Tredway I believe) numerous numerous 2 digit cars did not. 5026 and 5032 I think did as did 5S041. But as I recall 5S050ish up to 5S088 a good number of them did not. Rod Creiger's old car 5S089 did.
Stan (NCTRACKRAT) does your car 5S071 have the emblem?
The first batch of R Models beginning with 5R094 I believe did. (I'd have to check photos) Pardee's 5R095 can be easily looked up. 5R102, 5R106 and 5R108 did not.
Again it's hard to determine as many were retrofitted. A good number of the Carter street cars were hand built in batches (before moving to the airport hanger production) without the tail panel emblems. Exactly which ones is anyone's guess. 5S(low one hundred teens and onwards did). That's about all I can say.
Cheers,
~Earl J
still water can run deep....
IMHO this is a most impressive and outstanding 1965 GT-350. I wish the seller good luck.
This example, which has been raced and aptly represented the race-car bonafides of the 65s for many many years brings to light a lot of things which need to be refreshed - lest they be forgotten:
https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/cardetail.php?reqcardir=SH-350GT-5S075;
-I agree 100% w the posting of "SFM5S000". This car could easily and cheaply be reconfigured to street trim. In concurrence, it would not necessarily be 'concours 1965'. But a concours 1965 GT 350 is a car w significant shortcomings and easily embarrassed by its' peers. This has all but been forgotten as 65 GT-350s have largely disappeared from common ownership and street/track usage;
-we have all been meaconed by the very real, although dissociated, auction/private-sale collectors laying down 500 (large) for a '65 to round out their collections. But what are they buying? Dare I say that many of these auction queens are masterfully restored old floozies reborn as new found virgins... (not necessarily a bad thing);
- I herein posit that the halcyon days for the 1965 GT-350s were in 1968-1980~ range when 65s, in various states of sensible modification, took the attack as club racers, autocrossers (remember?), open trackers, SCCA B prod, doorbangers, run-whatcha-brung, etc.
Although, yes, the R ran at Green Valley etc and, yes, Jerry Titus, Donahue etc al were truly outstanding, the vaunted reputation of the 1965 GT-350 as a serious performance car was demonstrated in 'club racing' 1968-1980. These were great days for the 65 GT-350s, probably the most aggressive widespread usage, most wrenched by their (then) enthusiast owner-drivers. Secret: (lightweight) shhhh
A (then) 'set up' 65 GT-350 could indeed stick it to a '68 302 Camaro or B302, but it wasn't easy. THAT is what this instant sale represents (warts and all). It is this where the 1965 GT-350 proved its' worth;
-most of the guys who aggressively raced and established the enduring reputation of the 65 GT-350s have passed and the naive 'market' now wants a 'hanger car' as a collection trophy. But hey? that's where we're at I guess....can't argue w the money!
- BTW, these were all modded 'S' model 65s, as above, (by the mid 70s most R models were junk heaps subject to re-body). '427' is also correct about these period 'racer' cars not at the level of today's Cobra Automotive prepped cars- which are masterful. But the CA level cars are creations of the twenty-first century! There was NEVER anything of the sort when 65s established their enduring reputation.
Dare I say:
Why would anyone want a 3939S fuel pump? functionally worthless
or a stock fan? laughable
or a G2 radiator? first to be vaulted into the dumpster....
289 heads? run for your life
external balance? give up now
These things are all sacrosanct in our 'collector-pseudo concours world' now, and the mere mention is unspeakable, with the inference that this degrades the car. wow.
It is in these areas that a car such as 5S075, can so accurately portray a 1965 GT-350, and the real history of the 1965 GT-350s at their best, but I agree that is not the 'market' today. By gosh there may even be a chance that a car such as this may not have the 'correct' date coded wind-wing!
Back to lurking.
Steve
SFM5S339
"Stan (NCTRACKRAT) does your car 5S071 have the emblem?"
Earl-
No, no emblem. Those w/o are lighter...therefore faster! :)
Regards,
Stan
maybe lighter and faster, but they were put on the rr to aid in traction. the cars with no emblem have posi. phred
True, Papa Scoops! 3.89 DE-Troit Locker!
Quote from: camp upshur on May 02, 2018, 01:59:12 PM
still water can run deep....
IMHO this is a most impressive and outstanding 1965 GT-350. I wish the seller good luck.
This example, which has been raced and aptly represented the race-car bonafides of the 65s for many many years brings to light a lot of things which need to be refreshed - lest they be forgotten:
https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/cardetail.php?reqcardir=SH-350GT-5S075;
-I agree 100% w the posting of "SFM5S000". This car could easily and cheaply be reconfigured to street trim. In concurrence, it would not necessarily be 'concours 1965'. But a concours 1965 GT 350 is a car w significant shortcomings and easily embarrassed by its' peers. This has all but been forgotten as 65 GT-350s have largely disappeared from common ownership and street/track usage;
-we have all been meaconed by the very real, although dissociated, auction/private-sale collectors laying down 500 (large) for a '65 to round out their collections. But what are they buying? Dare I say that many of these auction queens are masterfully restored old floozies reborn as new found virgins... (not necessarily a bad thing);
- I herein posit that the halcyon days for the 1965 GT-350s were in 1968-1980~ range when 65s, in various states of sensible modification, took the attack as club racers, autocrossers (remember?), open trackers, SCCA B prod, doorbangers, run-whatcha-brung, etc.
Although, yes, the R ran at Green Valley etc and, yes, Jerry Titus, Donahue etc al were truly outstanding, the vaunted reputation of the 1965 GT-350 as a serious performance car was demonstrated in 'club racing' 1968-1980. These were great days for the 65 GT-350s, probably the most aggressive widespread usage, most wrenched by their (then) enthusiast owner-drivers. Secret: (lightweight) shhhh
A (then) 'set up' 65 GT-350 could indeed stick it to a '68 302 Camaro or B302, but it wasn't easy. THAT is what this instant sale represents (warts and all). It is this where the 1965 GT-350 proved its' worth;
-most of the guys who aggressively raced and established the enduring reputation of the 65 GT-350s have passed and the naive 'market' now wants a 'hanger car' as a collection trophy. But hey? that's where we're at I guess....can't argue w the money!
- BTW, these were all modded 'S' model 65s, as above, (by the mid 70s most R models were junk heaps subject to re-body). '427' is also correct about these period 'racer' cars not at the level of today's Cobra Automotive prepped cars- which are masterful. But the CA level cars are creations of the twenty-first century! There was NEVER anything of the sort when 65s established their enduring reputation.
Dare I say:
Why would anyone want a 3939S fuel pump? functionally worthless
or a stock fan? laughable
or a G2 radiator? first to be vaulted into the dumpster....
289 heads? run for your life
external balance? give up now
These things are all sacrosanct in our 'collector-pseudo concours world' now, and the mere mention is unspeakable, with the inference that this degrades the car. wow.
It is in these areas that a car such as 5S075, can so accurately portray a 1965 GT-350, and the real history of the 1965 GT-350s at their best, but I agree that is not the 'market' today. By gosh there may even be a chance that a car such as this may not have the 'correct' date coded wind-wing!
Back to lurking.
Steve
SFM5S339
First off I think I understand your point of view. I did not mean to kick your dog . You might reread my post as I didn't make fun of or degrade the race car configuration like you did of stock configuration. My comments had to do with the sellers comment "easily be converted for street use" It appeared the seller was trying to represent the car as everything to everyone with that comment. As if saying if you don't want a race car you can have a street car. "easily" in this context is a relative term . The same goes for how "street use" in the commonly accepted context is relative too ;) . How those terms could be interpreted by different people seemed funny to me . Apparently not to you. Most reasonable people reading a ad like that would not consider a 65 with GT 1 flairs lowered with a race engine ,maybe racing clutch,race front and rear springs etc. a viable street driver even after hooking up street exhaust to muffle the sound. That is what I envision a respectable car placing 2nd in the Shelby race at Monterey. I may be mistaken but that was my first thought. It is reasonable to conclude it was a very respectable purpose build race ride given the competitive race it took second in. With all that said it is debatable whether most collector car buyers would find it easy to convert it to what most consider "street use" or not. Again the reason for the chuckle . My chuckle does not have anything to do which is better just the contradiction of how the terms can be interpreted. I do not know why anyone with a lick of collector car sense would want to pay 450K in today's market and change a car with documented period race history to "street use" easy or not. But again that is just me . I am fortunate enough to have built ,maintain and currently a care taker for race model GT350's and street model GT350's . That thought would not cross my mind for a significant car. I know what it takes to make one into the other and vice versa. I respect your point view but you could get that point across in a respectful way without all of the stock correct car part sarcasm .
The good news is we can all play in this sand box together... There is very strong beliefs here for both sides of the line- Performance or correct paint daubs etc. Were things get funny is these cars were intended to be run hard and put away wet, as most were. Then came the collectability thing where people are afraid to drive their cars at all, let alone enjoy them as they were intended. I enjoy someone's car in the corner of their shop or museum but not nearly as much as driving them with as much gusto as they did in the 60s but much more today! ;D The greatest arguments seem to be what direction to take a car, if someone bought that car a few years back paid the 250k cut off the quarters put in a mild HP 289 etc they would be very proud of their purchase and the end result for their wallet. Bob you are the man when it comes to info on bringing these cars back as they were built I am so grateful for the assist over the years on my projects. Vintage race Shelby products we differ greatly. To those that can locate one of these very special cars get it and enjoy it any way that puts a smile on your face! ;)
Quote from: 427heaven on May 02, 2018, 09:41:35 PM
The good news is we can all play in this sand box together... There is very strong beliefs here for both sides of the line- Performance or correct paint daubs etc. Were things get funny is these cars were intended to be run hard and put away wet, as most were............
Respectfully not sure if we all agree even on this point. The cars were built to make someone money. They didn't care what the new owner did with their new street car. The sales and dollars meant that others could go play, get funding, pay the bills so they could do what they wanted. I think the statement cars are designed to be used is more factual but after all these years who care. Its history and each story and car is different and there is room for all until they take our toys away
Hello Jeff hope all is well- What I meant by driven as intended was, these were race cars of their time sold to be driven on the streets and all performance cars have that singular purpose in mind, drive it fast. Other wise we could be discussing how are 6 bangers with slush box transmissions are getting great economy with the gas prices these days. I think everyone's first thought with these cars is its performance capability otherwise they may be looking for vintage pintos or vega-s. Hope to see you in Nor Cal
Quote from: 427heaven on May 02, 2018, 09:41:35 PM
The good news is we can all play in this sand box together... There is very strong beliefs here for both sides of the line- Performance or correct paint daubs etc. Were things get funny is these cars were intended to be run hard and put away wet, as most were. Then came the collectability thing where people are afraid to drive their cars at all, let alone enjoy them as they were intended. I enjoy someone's car in the corner of their shop or museum but not nearly as much as driving them with as much gusto as they did in the 60s but much more today! ;D The greatest arguments seem to be what direction to take a car, if someone bought that car a few years back paid the 250k cut off the quarters put in a mild HP 289 etc they would be very proud of their purchase and the end result for their wallet. Bob you are the man when it comes to info on bringing these cars back as they were built I am so grateful for the assist over the years on my projects. Vintage race Shelby products we differ greatly. To those that can locate one of these very special cars get it and enjoy it any way that puts a smile on your face! ;)
Respectfully I don't see were you are getting any of that from my posts? I wasn't talking about paint daubs or direction to take a car let alone the one being discussed. I have expressed a number of times now that what I thought was funny, strange etc. was the terminology of "easily be converted for street use" and how the terms are relative to different perceptions of the situation. I am talking about THIS CAR IN PARTIVCULAR. My post was not meant or intended to be negative commentary on vintage race or performance personalize cars in general. Maybe you would want to PM me explaining what you mean about "Vintage race Shelby products we differ greatly" because I am a student of those as well as stock configuration and I don't recall being at odds with you on vintage race Shelby products in any of the many questions that I was happy to help answer for you in the past on your car.
FFS, this is going round in circles , Bob you must be the most thin skinned bloke i have seen. 427 went out of his way to get his opinion across and not upset your delicate demeanour . Mate, get over your self, you are a small fish in a big pond. Since the rebirth of Forum 2.0 you would have to be the most antagonistic one here.JMHO.
Popcorn
After reading this thread I have one burning question;
Why do you guys hate paragraphs?
I mean, for the love of God. ::)
5S073 cool story
Quote from: Shelby73 on May 04, 2018, 10:28:19 PM
Maybe it's because we didn't learn anything in school we were to busy studying cars. I've never made a penny typing on this laptop but I've got 12 Shelby's and a real Cobra plus 35 other cars from studying cars. If you want perfect sentences and paragraphs you may want to hang around a site for English teachers.
BFD, is that an excuse? Would you want to listen to someone mumbling or speaking clearly?
BTW, Who said anything about perfection?
I took my post down since it was painful for 2112 to read, we are now getting graded on our writing.
Quote from: Shelby73 on May 05, 2018, 08:33:50 AM
I took my post down since it was painful for 2112 to read, we are now getting graded on our writing.
Never said a word about grading anything. It is one issue, run-on paragraphs. Message board equivalent of mumbling.
Get over it 2112 I don't know where you live but next time you come through N.C stop in and I'll show you some cars and we'll have a drink, remember we are all friends just be nice.
Bob Gaines> no offense intended. You are very generous to field so many questions which help many board participants.
Here, just enjoying a spirited discussion, so much of which was lost with what happened.
Still can't believe it.
Quote from: camp upshur on May 07, 2018, 03:10:16 AM
Bob Gaines> no offense intended. You are very generous to field so many questions which help many board participants.
Here, just enjoying a spirited discussion, so much of which was lost with what happened.
Still can't believe it.
Great to hear. Thanks for the complement. Definitely a spirited discussion. ;D
Just noticed another car for sale on Hemming's that fits this topic:
https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/shelby/gt350/2111727.html
Location: Marshall, Virginia, 20115
VIN #: SFM5S471
Transmission: Manual
Condition: Excellent
Exterior: Sapphire Blue/white stripes
Interior: black
Seller's Description:
1965 Shelby GT350 Vintage B/P Race Car
This Shelby GT350 was shipped to Archway Motors in Baltimore, Maryland, from Shelby American in Los Angeles on August 3, 1965 – via rail. From the car's first sale within weeks of shipment it has gone through eleven documented owners ending with the seller when he purchased it in November, 2003.
The sixth owner, Walt Hane, converted it to a B/Production vintage spec'd race car in the late 1980's. Walt, incidentally, won the SCCA's B/P National Championship at Riverside in 1996, besting, among others, Mark Donahue. While not one of the original 36 "R Models" produced by Shelby and specifically built for road racing, this car, with Mr. Hane's knowledge and expertise, built 5S471 with those cars in mind. His philosophy was closely aligned with the spirit and intent of those 36 "R Models" and he fashioned this car as such. The car weighs 2,740 lbs with ½ tank of fuel and no driver.
The history and documentary pedigree of this GT350 is recorded at the Shelby American Automobile Club (SAAC) located in Connecticut. The seller raced the car from 2004 thought 2013 and averaged four events a year. After 2009, it was mostly in retirement due to the seller's purchase of a 1966 GT350 vintage racer on which he then focused his attention.
Over the years of ownership the car was always highly maintained and in a state of race readiness. The engine was routinely refreshed every 40-45 hours. After retiring from racing after 50+ years, the seller finally got around to putting in a new engine. Again, to B/P specifications, it was built by automotive machinist/engine builder, Wally Hicks (himself a former National Champion SCCA driver), with technical assistance from Tysons Auto Machine in Sterling, VA. Everything in this engine is essentially new except for the Ford block (M-6010) that the seller purchased in 2008. The crank shaft was not worn, thus, not changed. Upon completion of the engine work, the GT350 was put on an "undoctored" engine dynamometer and produced exactly the seller's expected results. Those results are shown in the photographs attached. Other than the 30 minutes or so on the dyno, the engine has, perhaps, another 30 minutes post installation with short runs on seller's private road.
Several areas of the car have been cosmetically re-sprayed by an expert painter to correct minor body issues. The paint used was the same PPG Industries' Ford, Sapphire Blue Poly, Code #13075. Those areas were re-clearcoated. Due to the age of the original Sapphire Blue, there is a noticeable shade difference in two areas – left rear pillar and top of right front fender. Seller is advised that time will cause an appropriate change to match.
It is believed that #89 is welcomed by all vintage racing sanctioning bodies and would be a welcome entry to most, if not all, events.
Some of the organizations are: SVRA, VRG, HSR, VSCCA, VDCA, VSCDA, SOVREN, HMSA ... and more.
Events that would likely accept entry:
• Rolex Motorsport Reunion @ Laguna Seca
• International Challenge Vintage Races – Road America
• Jefferson 500 – Summit Point
• PVGP – Pittsburgh Int'l Race Course
• U.S. Vintage G.P. – Watkins Glen
• Lime Rock Festival – Lime Rock Park
The foregoing notwithstanding, the buyer could enjoy the car at any number of high performance driving events.
Note: Refer to specific spec sheets in the photo album for more detail.
Price: $289,000
Nice looking car and interesting history.
Owned,Driven, and Enjoyed as the cars were intended... :) As the Performance cars of the 60s ownership ages, its easier to leave these cars in shops and garages to gather dust, just reminiscing of how it was back in the day. Sad really until we here and see owners enjoying the driving- ownership experience.