SAAC Forum

The Cars => CSX 3000 Series => Topic started by: PhilS on May 16, 2018, 06:47:47 PM

Title: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: PhilS on May 16, 2018, 06:47:47 PM
Does anyone have pics of or info relating to the exhaust manifold heat riser for carb choke on 427s?
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 16, 2018, 07:09:27 PM
Does anyone have pics of or info relating to the exhaust manifold heat riser for carb choke on 427s?
Duel four?
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: PhilS on May 16, 2018, 07:22:51 PM
Single 4.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Dan Case on May 17, 2018, 10:49:15 AM
I won't claim to be an expert on this subject but CSX32xx and CSX33xx chassis with 4V induction. Not much different than CSX31xx 2-4V induction except on opposite sides of the engine.

I don't recall what it is called it but there was a special heat capturing fitting threaded into an exhaust manifold. (A new old stock fitting was offered on ebay® about three months ago. I have seen two different lengths for sale. I don't know the length of the one used in a 427 Cobra but it can't be real long.) A soft copper tube connected the fitting in the manifold to the choke mechanism on the carburetor. A soft flexible asbestos fiber based woven tube covered (insulated) the copper tube.

The hard to duplicate detail is that the insulation tube that is not a Ford part. The one person that I know that has been successful finding an exact match did so hunting old inventory in old pre-national chain flood parts stores and that was a long time ago.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: gt350hr on May 17, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
  The original tubes are mild steel similar to that used for brake and fuel lines except 1/4" dia tube. Because of the "log" style cast iron manifolds used , the tube would be very close to one for a '65 Thunderbird or Galaxie offering which used the log style manifold. It would not be the same as the production 427 tube which used "header looking" , long manifolds. I am not aware of a reproduction but there may be.
     Randy
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Dan Case on May 17, 2018, 02:58:14 PM
  The original tubes are mild steel similar to that used for brake and fuel lines except 1/4" dia tube. Because of the "log" style cast iron manifolds used , the tube would be very close to one for a '65 Thunderbird or Galaxie offering which used the log style manifold. It would not be the same as the production 427 tube which used "header looking" , long manifolds. I am not aware of a reproduction but there may be.
     Randy

All the intact unrestored 427 Cobra pictures (includes dirty one owner low mile cars) I have show a copper tube, including new CSX31xx engines during installation at Shelby's works. Unrestored cars I have seen in person had a few as 800 original miles to less than 10,000 miles with copper tubes.

Not all 2-4V cars hot air choke pull off systems in the CSX31xx and CSX30xx S/C ranges. In a few cars a special plug provided by Holley sealed the choke inlet and the thermostatic control cover was remarked with a new nominal index by hand. The plug was actual something used briefly by Ford in 427 R Code engines, briefly but long enough to get shown in a TSB.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: PhilS on May 17, 2018, 03:04:06 PM
Thanks for the responses. I have one for a 67 R code Fairlane but it is 1-2 inches too long. I have never seen a correct one so I might just section mine. Once installed it would be hard to detect as long as the nut end is alike.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Dan Case on May 17, 2018, 03:08:35 PM
Thanks for the responses. I have one for a 67 R code Fairlane but it is 1-2 inches too long. I have never seen a correct one so I might just section mine. Once installed it would be hard to detect as long as the nut end is alike.

The insulator cover is visually the tough thing if exact day one appearance is desired. The original tube covers were pretty fragile and would come apart. I have seen unrestored 427 Cobras with just a scrap of original cover hanging off a copper tube.

Send me your e-mail address in a PM (private message) on this forum and I will send a couple of very unrestored car pictures.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Dan Case on May 17, 2018, 03:24:24 PM
Images sent.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: PhilS on May 17, 2018, 03:33:31 PM
Got them. Thank you.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Dan Case on May 17, 2018, 03:38:27 PM
Got them. Thank you.

You are welcome. This is the closest "old" kit I have seen and the tube and cover are probably way too short. The heat pick up fitting looks great.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-56-57-58-THUNDERBIRD-FORD-LINCOLN-MERCURY-AUTOMATIC-CHOKE-CONTROL-HEAT-UNIT/183229376067?hash=item2aa9526643:g:W34AAOSwvD5aEx-K (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-56-57-58-THUNDERBIRD-FORD-LINCOLN-MERCURY-AUTOMATIC-CHOKE-CONTROL-HEAT-UNIT/183229376067?hash=item2aa9526643:g:W34AAOSwvD5aEx-K)
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: PhilS on May 17, 2018, 03:57:11 PM
Yes it does look good and the depth would certainly work.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: gt350hr on May 18, 2018, 10:12:29 AM
   My apologies Dan ,
          I was thinking of the tube for a Galaxie or T Bird not a Cobra. I have corrected my notes.
        Randy
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Dan Case on May 18, 2018, 01:08:27 PM
No problem.

I don't do all that much on research on 427 Cobras so I don't know near as many details on manufacturers, materials, and part numbers as I do for Cobras. I do collect information that I can comb through as required.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: gt350hr on May 18, 2018, 02:02:54 PM
 Dan it is entirely possible that the "universal" over the counter kit was used because of the low volume nature on this engine combination. A 427 Cobra with a single four , cast iron manifolds and rear exit exhaust is pretty rare! Obviously the 428 is more common , but still a small number.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Dan Case on May 18, 2018, 02:59:28 PM
Dan it is entirely possible that the "universal" over the counter kit was used because of the low volume nature on this engine combination. A 427 Cobra with a single four , cast iron manifolds and rear exit exhaust is pretty rare! Obviously the 428 is more common , but still a small number.

SAI sourced all kinds of parts locally on their own from day one with CSX2000 in Dean Moon's shop. The 'stuff' sourced locally is the hardest to find now especially items that were custom ordered or sourced from small manufacturing companies that didn't survive past the 1970s.

The whole engine "thing" was a string of "rare" combinations.  CSX32xx and CSX33xx cars did not get as many SAI changes or additions to engines as received from Ford as CSX31xx cars did. That doesn’t mean parts for the 4V fitted engines are easy to find.

Most CSX32xx and CSX3301, received 1966 428 PI engines for manual transmissions to which SAI added some 427 Cobra only goodies.  Rare doesn’t describe some parts for those engines as manual transmission hot rod police cars must not have been real common.   

I have not heard of a CSX32xx car getting any but during the CSX31xx time frame SAI did offer a under chassis header system. CSX3141 was fitted with a set and an automatic transmission so the headers were probably just barely squeezed in.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: gt350hr on May 18, 2018, 05:13:07 PM
    Dan , I totally agree. Cobra builds were exactly "uniform". Being a local I also know what you mean about parts substitution of non critical components on them.
     Randy
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: CSX 4133 on May 19, 2018, 11:31:40 AM

Found this product which closely resembles the insulated sleeving found on the heat riser.


https://www.electriduct.com/Vectran-Braided-Sleeving.html
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 19, 2018, 10:55:44 PM
A choke tube, probably with the cover, is shown in the May '65 listing of the things SA had on the shelf. The part number is C30E-9820-A, which I can't find in the Ford MPC's. I suspect it's an engineering number. Unfortunately it wasn't always clear whether a given part listed was used on a small block or big block Cobra or GT350. The part number is a clue, but for example a small block affiliated item may have been used on a 427 Cobra.

The cover on the choke tube on my engine is supposed to be an old NOS Fomoco part (wasn't in a package) and I'm pretty sure it's exactly what came on the cars by comparison to detailed period photos and survivor images. I've been under the belief that the visual difference between some "genuine" Ford covers you may find and what was used in '65 is due to a change in material, as the '65 items were made with asbestos.
You may be using your example for other things besides the choke but just in case you weren't I wanted to remind that the 65 and 66 GT350 as well as the 65/66 Hipo Mustang did not have a choke tube.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: shelbydoug on May 20, 2018, 07:52:03 AM
A choke tube, probably with the cover, is shown in the May '65 listing of the things SA had on the shelf. The part number is C30E-9820-A, which I can't find in the Ford MPC's. I suspect it's an engineering number. Unfortunately it wasn't always clear whether a given part listed was used on a small block or big block Cobra or GT350. The part number is a clue, but for example a small block affiliated item may have been used on a 427 Cobra.

The cover on the choke tube on my engine is supposed to be an old NOS Fomoco part (wasn't in a package) and I'm pretty sure it's exactly what came on the cars by comparison to detailed period photos and survivor images. I've been under the belief that the visual difference between some "genuine" Ford covers you may find and what was used in '65 is due to a change in material, as the '65 items were made with asbestos.
You may be using your example for other things besides the choke but just in case you weren't I wanted to remind that the 65 and 66 GT350 as well as the 65/66 Hipo Mustang did not have a choke tube.

The fact is that it isn't needed functionally.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Dan Case on May 20, 2018, 10:00:46 AM
For historical accuracy, beware of using the 1965 and 1966 (published in 1965 and 1966) Shelby American service parts books for Cobra and 427 Cobra repairs or restorations. The books are not 'here is what we "as built" the cars with' set of references. The books are service part books. Many of  the parts listed are just things that will do the job. Many of the parts for early Cobras are not listed at all.

They also do not include a lot of the small parts SA sourced or made on their own locally without going through Ford or AC Cars.

Also, beware that for Cobras for sure the AC Cars chassis manuals also includes service parts that were different that what was used in production. I have even found an omission, i.e. a part used in new Cobras not shown in the drawing in the manual or parts list.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: PhilS on May 20, 2018, 04:32:11 PM
When I decided to un S/C my car I began looking for parts including exhaust manifolds. I found some but the owners would not sell. I finally bought a pair of repros from Legendary in Canada. They look good but don't have a drilled port for the choke stove. The 66 and 67 Ford part for 427s is at least an inch too long maybe more. I don't know where SA got these manifolds to begin with. I've been told they may be an industrial piece but if they were cast without the choke port then it seems SA would have to drill them and find a source for the choke stove. I suppose they could have modified an existing piece but seems like a lot of extra time on such a small piece. The pics I have and have been shared with me look very similar to the Ford part although I can only see the nut end and not the portion that drops into the manifold. The Ford parts are available as repros and I will probably just modify one but thought it would be nice to find the right one. Thanks for all the comments and help.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: PhilS on May 20, 2018, 05:36:50 PM
Good information, thanks Mike.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: Dan Case on May 20, 2018, 07:33:17 PM
The images I have seen of unmolested used 427 Cobra cast iron exhaust manifolds show a AC Cars part number cast into them. AC Cars supplied the cast iron two branch exhaust manifolds for HP289 engines in Cobras.
Title: Re: Choke heat riser for 427
Post by: PhilS on May 24, 2018, 04:53:39 PM
Dan Case,
Does this suggest the entire exhaust system was supplied by AC?