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Off Topic Area => The Lounge => Topic started by: deathsled on June 14, 2022, 10:19:40 AM

Title: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: deathsled on June 14, 2022, 10:19:40 AM
An interesting review of the two engines.
https://youtu.be/VkJqw4Zx8M0
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: Royce Peterson on June 14, 2022, 11:10:43 AM
Interesting that Ford had a camshaft that had more lift and less duration. Also interesting to me - the Z28 was far more common even though the 302 version was only produced 1967 - 69. I can't recall ever seeing a 1970 (not a real model year at Chevy) or 71 Z28.
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: deathsled on June 14, 2022, 11:26:01 AM
I only saw 1970 Z/28 knock off cars myself. But growing up in Toronto, the US got all the hotter cars. Fact of life.
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: sd427 on June 14, 2022, 07:21:32 PM
The 2nd generation Z28 Camaros starting in 1970 had the 350cc LT-1 motor.
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: deathsled on June 14, 2022, 10:02:04 PM
The 2nd generation Z28 Camaros starting in 1970 had the 350cc LT-1 motor.
Yes quite true. The Trans am Camaros had to be destroked to 5.0 to be allowed to compete however.
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: crossboss on June 14, 2022, 11:42:45 PM
The street versions of the Boss 302 and DZ302, were quite comparable in performance. Some points were better on the Boss, while the Z/28 had theirs also. Very closely matched. The T/A cars were just the opposite. The Boss had the horsepower advantage, while the Z had better weight bias. What made the difference, race to race: the drivers. Sometimes Parnelli had the advantage, sometimes Donohue. The rest is history...
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: deathsled on June 14, 2022, 11:52:46 PM
The street versions of the Boss 302 and DZ302, were quite comparable in performance. Some points were better on the Boss, while the Z/28 had theirs also. Very closely matched. The T/A cars were just the opposite. The Boss had the horsepower advantage, while the Z had better weight bias. What made the difference, race to race: the drivers. Sometimes Parnelli had the advantage, sometimes Donohue. The rest is history...
In 1969 I also believe that the Firestone wheels kept blowing out on the Boss 302 hampering Ford's Manufacturer's win.  (Among the other factors you mentioned.)
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: crossboss on June 15, 2022, 12:43:42 AM
The street versions of the Boss 302 and DZ302, were quite comparable in performance. Some points were better on the Boss, while the Z/28 had theirs also. Very closely matched. The T/A cars were just the opposite. The Boss had the horsepower advantage, while the Z had better weight bias. What made the difference, race to race: the drivers. Sometimes Parnelli had the advantage, sometimes Donohue. The rest is history...
In 1969 I also believe that the Firestone wheels kept blowing out on the Boss 302 hampering Ford's Manufacturer's win.  (Among the other factors you mentioned.)


It was among many things. The Firestone tires, American Racing wheels were known to crack. The biggest factor in the '69 T/A race was the St Jovite crash. It almost destroyed all the Boss cars in one fell swoop. They never recovered from it.
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: TA Coupe on June 15, 2022, 03:40:58 AM
Scott, the second I saw the topic for this discussion I knew you would hop on it .
Another big reason Ford lost in 69 was because Penske had wheels with the lug nuts attached to the wheels and the 200s wheels Ford started out using had to have every lug started by hand which was not easy to do. Fords pit stops cost them about 1min per stop because of those wheels, hard to make up for ☹️

        Roy
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: FL SAAC on June 15, 2022, 08:35:05 AM
Scott, the second I saw the topic for this discussion I knew you would hop on it .
Another big reason Ford lost in 69 was because Penske had wheels with the lug nuts attached to the wheels and the 200s wheels Ford started out using had to have every lug started by hand which was not easy to do. Fords pit stops cost them about 1min per stop because of those wheels, hard to make up for ☹️

        Roy

+ 1
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: FL SAAC on June 15, 2022, 08:37:15 AM
Have driven both cars and owned a 69 Z, the BOSS had more torque and power. 

But a nice set of 4 + gears would really awake either car and surprise anything on the street or track
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: crossboss on June 15, 2022, 11:51:50 AM
Roy,
Absolutely correct. Penske/Donohue were a force to be reckoned with. Remember, the book "The Unfair Advantage"? It was true...
Anyways, Chevy won '69, and Ford won 1970. Both excellent cars, and teams. We will never see it again...at least we can 'relive it' @ the vintage races!
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 15, 2022, 01:27:24 PM
I was working at the local Chevy dealer (HS auto shop work experience) when their 1st 1967 Z28 rolled off the trailer. The UAW guys couldn't figure out how to install the Hurst shifter so I was tasked with fixing it. The trans/rearend guy I was working with told me to take it for a "good" test drive. Since school was just getting out that is where I took it to do some burnouts. When I got back the tuneup guy stuck it on the chassis dyno they had and he guestimated it was making 430+ hp at the crank.
That was the same engine design Chevy used for the whole series. After 67 Ford was playing catchup. The TP heads might have worked if Ford had let Shelby build the engines but the UAW guys didn't have the necessary tools/skills/parts to do it right. The cloned big block Chevy heads on the 302 did work but too many other problems beset the teams.
Penske perfected his wheel changing on pitstops when he changed the Javelins to 4 lug wheels - 20% less time tightening lugnuts - can anyone say "Unfair Advantage"?
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: Side-Oilers on June 15, 2022, 01:35:55 PM
My good friend Tom McIntyre (long-time CSX3000 owner) also owns/restored/vintage races the '68 T/A champion Camaro of Penske/Donahue. 

A lot of you have probably seen it run. Bitchin car.

Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 15, 2022, 02:19:36 PM
My good friend Tom McIntyre (long-time CSX3000 owner) also owns/restored/vintage races the '68 T/A champion Camaro of Penske/Donahue. 

A lot of you have probably seen it run. Bitchin car.


Another gem Tom found/restored before the old TA cars caught on and became kazillion dollar assets.
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: crossboss on June 15, 2022, 02:54:06 PM
My good friend Tom McIntyre (long-time CSX3000 owner) also owns/restored/vintage races the '68 T/A champion Camaro of Penske/Donahue. 

A lot of you have probably seen it run. Bitchin car.



Van,
Yes seen Tom with his Camaro (and Cobra) at Willow many, many times. Years ago, I also have been to his old business/shop near the DWP in Burbank.
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: Side-Oilers on June 15, 2022, 03:05:18 PM
Tom is one of the best people I've ever met.  We've been friends since 1980.

His Lake St location is still being used for the business.   
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: crossboss on June 15, 2022, 03:40:47 PM
Tom is one of the best people I've ever met.  We've been friends since 1980.

His Lake St location is still being used for the business.   



Van,
Yes, that was it. I remember he made a lot of the 69-70 Shelby stuff.
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: TA Coupe on June 15, 2022, 04:21:37 PM
Roy,
Absolutely correct. Penske/Donohue were a force to be reckoned with. Remember, the book "The Unfair Advantage"? It was true...
Anyways, Chevy won '69, and Ford won 1970. Both excellent cars, and teams. We will never see it again...at least we can 'relive it' @ the vintage races!

Very true, I've been to dozens of vintage races. I also lucked out in finding 2 brand new original copies of The Unfair Advantage in a huge book store in Oakland back in the mid eighties and sold one to Ken Epsman because I knew he was looking for one.

       Roy
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: TA Coupe on June 15, 2022, 04:29:29 PM
I was working at the local Chevy dealer (HS auto shop work experience) when their 1st 1967 Z28 rolled off the trailer. The UAW guys couldn't figure out how to install the Hurst shifter so I was tasked with fixing it. The trans/rearend guy I was working with told me to take it for a "good" test drive. Since school was just getting out that is where I took it to do some burnouts. When I got back the tuneup guy stuck it on the chassis dyno they had and he guestimated it was making 430+ hp at the crank.
That was the same engine design Chevy used for the whole series. After 67 Ford was playing catchup. The TP heads might have worked if Ford had let Shelby build the engines but the UAW guys didn't have the necessary tools/skills/parts to do it right. The cloned big block Chevy heads on the 302 did work but too many other problems beset the teams.
Penske perfected his wheel changing on pitstops when he changed the Javelins to 4 lug wheels - 20% less time tightening lugnuts - can anyone say "Unfair Advantage"?

Don't you mean 330 hp? This is from a write up about Tom's car on the Historic Trans AM website:

This first-generation Camaro Z-28 looks surprisingly stock except for the small front and rear spoilers. However, they had excellent underpinnings from the factory and could be turned into extremely competitive racing cars.

With huge intake and exhaust valves, the 302 V8 had potential for lots of power, and with the most careful assembly and blueprinting, as much as 440 bhp could be produced.

I know Tom pretty good also. We had our picture in an issue of Autoweek back in March of 1988

       Roy


Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: deathsled on June 15, 2022, 09:57:00 PM
As much as I despised Camaros due to high school rivalry and insults I endured with my little 69 Mustang coupe, I have evolved to grudgingly accept and agree that the first generation Camaros were great looking with great engines.
Title: Re: 1969 Boss 302 versus Chevy DZ302
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 15, 2022, 10:28:05 PM
Don't you mean 330 hp?

Yes - said 290 (if I remember) on the air cleaner - it was 55 years ago.