I'm going to start this thread so that all interested parties can comment, suggest and otherwise share their opinion on the future of the SAAC club, forum, etc. It's important that those who have a vested interest also have a voice (a nice inside voice that treats others with respect even if they might disagree with them).
Unfortunately, too many threads have been hijacked lately with discussions regarding the club and website/forum issues and that detracts from the posters original intent. I'll be the first to say that I'm guilty of this myself. Hopefully this thread will allow everyone to comment on those issues so other threads can stay intact and on subject.
Currently there are three websites related directly to SAAC that I know of:
saac.com
saac.memberlodge.com
saacforum.com
The first two seem to be directly related to the club and this forum as most of you know is owned and managed separately but is linked to from the saac.com site as the "official" SAAC forum. I am not including all of the other websites or forums that focus on Shelbys but are not directly tied to SAAC.
What does/should it mean to be a dues-paying member of SAAC? What roles do each of these websites have in promoting Shelby American automobiles and their history? Why do you want to associate with this club (what do you hope to get out of it)?
Great idea to break this topic out from the other discussions.
Your questions will prompt lots of wishful thinking and great ideas but may not address the current situation.
It might be helpful to know where we stand today from the folks currently in charge.
What are the current priorities?
What is the current balance sheet?
Are there any legal commitments?
Best to know what direction we are currently headed before setting a new course.
If no answers are forthcoming, the only immediate solution would be to spin off the forum and put it in control of folks who are looking to grow the hobby and enthusiasm for the cars.
The registries are of utmost importance and regardless of the future direction of the club, they should be maintained and protected.
All great questions Rod... Problem seems to be that any time real questions and problems are brought up- THEY) The GLOBAL MODERATORS and the other chosen few, Who are they we really don't know? Seem to always interveen and lock all threads because this involves them and their feet are being held to the fire requiring answers. We know this takes time,effort,knowledge and enthusiasm when we get old this wanes in some people faster than others. Passing the torch to others that have tese skills is difficult for most. Its like being a Manager and told to clean out your desk, you had a good run but its time to pack it in and let your replacements guide the ship. I think we are there now and let the people say there peace without always deleting or locking their statements. :-[
Quote from: 427heaven on July 08, 2018, 11:14:33 AM
All great questions Rod... Problem seems to be that any time real questions and problems are brought up- THEY) The GLOBAL MODERATORS and the other chosen few, Who are they we really don't know? Seem to always interveen and lock all threads because this involves them and their feet are being held to the fire requiring answers. We know this takes time,effort,knowledge and enthusiasm when we get old this wanes in some people faster than others. Passing the torch to others that have tese skills is difficult for most. Its like being a Manager and told to clean out your desk, you had a good run but its time to pack it in and let your replacements guide the ship. I think we are there now and let the people say there peace without always deleting or locking their statements. :-[
If that's the case, the SAAC future is a slow death. Kind of like what we are seeing now.
It seems evident there is enough enthusiasm and talent and to pick up the pieces and start anew. How and when that happens, time will tell.
99% of the time, I don't get involved in all the hype like what's been going on in SAAC forum 2.0. And I will comment this one time and that's it.
I am fairly new here and got away from other forums that carry on like I've been noticing here.
But, this forum, IMHO from what I've seen on other Ford, Shelby and Mustang forums opened to the general public, is quickly becoming like other forums I discontinued visiting.
As you all may know the main forum(s) I'm talking about. I won't mention them here.
The old SAAC forum was a work of art and truly instumental in my learning about the first Gen Shelbys. This new forum is fast losing that IMO. It has lost it's roots somehow along the way. Maybe most that have been on here for years still can't get over losing all the information compiled over a decade on the old forum.
That's honestly what I see. And sometimes the members here, when not moderated efficiently, will get carried away with subjects not related at all to the Shelby and can be downright demeaning.
I know, some see the "Lounge" as a way to communicate about anything, but when talking trash about women, the clothes they wear and such, and talking trash to each other, in my opinion, that stuff has a place on other (non-car forums), not here.
All my comments here are the way I see through my eyes and thoughts and the way I see SAAC 2.0.
Thank You.....
No more comments.
My suggestion is to approach the people that are running the club at the Convention in August. That includes the President, the Board of Directors and the Administrator of this SAAC Forum.
They are going to be right there and you need to confront each and every individual involved.
They need to explain the current situation. Why there is no response to issues on this forum by ANY them and they need to express what their commitments are to SAAC now and in the future.
Then if need be, the members of SAAC need to decide what their commitments are and if there needs to be a change to the leadership of this organization.
Keep in mind the one thing that must be kept"iron clad"are the registries.the. club is in an interesting position here regarding the authentification of "real cars" with factory records..That can NEVER be compromised..In a sense the rest is "fluff " absent authentication in my opinion.
This discussion needs to be broken down into 2 parts - SAAC vs Forum
Forum
Complaints seem to center around crash of old site. Oh well stuff happens. Unfortunate but it's gone. It's a free to the world site and SAAC has let someone else use "SAAC" on their forum. 95+% of what was "lost" is contained within the SAAC publications and Registries. 100% of it is held by the original posters who can repost if they feel it's relevant.
Everybody is whining about posting pictures - read the post it's easy and quick
SAAC
What are the current priorities? I don't think this has changed since 1975 - promoting Shelby vehicles 1962-1970.
What is the current balance sheet? Not my concern I don't own stock in Walmart so I don't need to know their finances either.
Are there any legal commitments? Again don't care. I'm not an owner/partner so I have no liability.
Then if need be, the members of SAAC need to decide what their commitments are and if there needs to be a change to the leadership of this organization.
SAAC has been around for 43 years. Until CS sued it and tried to take it's assets (mainly the Registry) there were zero problems running it as a privately held company. After the CS suit was settled many of the board changed. The focus or goals haven't changed. SAAC has 2 websites for DUES PAYING members. They contain everything relevant for your membership. Publications, Events, etc. The forum is free to the world - they are not spending your dues on it.
Look how many car clubs fail due to infighting and whining by the membership. The original COCOA was gone when I bought my car in 1975 - 2 chapters still exist but that's all. SOA burned through all the dues money after a couple monthly issues rather than the promised 12. SAAC rose from the ashes of those clubs with insight on how to flourish over the years by keeping it a tightly held company with the focus on the cars not personal infighting among the membership. The SAAC publication is still one of the best in the world. The current thick publication is a function of the times not some nefarious plot to separate you from your money. To print and mail 4 times per year would increase printing and mailing costs far exceeding what the dues structure would support.
Does SAAC have a paid staff - I sure hope so I wouldn't want to babysit 4,000 people and the retirement portfolio parked in their garage for free.
Bottom line you don't like the forum don't use it and/or start your own - Same with SAAC if the club doesn't fulfill their promise of promoting the cars of CS from 1962-70 move on and form your own club.
To sum it up I'm an old guy, a past president of COCOA, that has been a member since 1975. I've owned many collectible cars of other makes. I no longer own a Shelby built car but have maintained my SAAC membership due to a love of the cars and the friendships I and my wife have built over the years.
SAAC runs in the background just fine. The publication arrives the convention happens the cars go up in value everything they said would happen.
It's hard to believe that anyone doubts that their dues aren't being used appropriately. I just spent a week of vacation joyfully reading through the 2017 annual. What a monumental task that must be to publish and distribute. I'm sure a lot of that is due to Rick Kopec. He and the rest of the contributors don't receive enough credit.
As a relatively new guy, the only flaw I see about the club is that the current management of SAAC doesn't seem to have a plan for passing the reins on to younger folks when the inevitable happens. As much as we would all like to see the club continue on indefinately with the same veterans performing their same duties, we all know life marches on. What if something was to happen to one of the Registrars (God forbid)? Will there be a loss of information and artifacts pertaining to all these wonderful vehicles? As someone already mentioned, the preservation of the registry and all the information associated with it is paramount, I'm sure we all can agree on that.
As for the forum, I can't help but feel that forum 2.0 is just having growing pains. A lot of the veterans who poured their heart and soul into the last forum now don't seem to trust it. It's like everyone is waiting to see if it will still be around tomorrow. That should improve in time. As for the other issues about civility, I like to think that Shelby's are classy vehicles. If this was a forum about Harley's, no one would even question it. Let's keep the level of discourse at least equal to how everyone feels about our special cars.
This forum may be a separate entity and not fiscally or legally tied to SAAC, but everyone's perception, accurate or not, is that they are one and the same.
Our membership dues are insanely low. I have a membership for another make and model and the dues are exactly 5 times more. They have no services (registry), no site and a yearly journal that pales in comparison to SAAC's.
Maybe it is time to consider a modest, or even immodest due increase in order get the accounts up to snuff an most importantly, forge a tighter relationship between this forum and SAAC.
We could buy the software upgrades so desperately needed here and maybe get some IT support.
Last, I have said it before and will say it again, I believe we need to reach out to the Gen II Shelby owners. Those groups are full of young enthusiastic members and gives our membership and the original cars a group to transition the overall legacy to.
The cars are 50 years old. Growing and sustaining the club organically is a monumental task. Why ignore 50,000 cars and their owners?
Calling your business a "club" is a neat trick, not unlike the magician who says watch this hand , while the other hand is busy elsewhere.
SAAC is not a club like the Corvette club, or the MCA, both of which have an elected board, and are subject to independent financial review, and both are in no danger of failing by the way.
it's a business, ran like any other business; for profit. Remember that and you won't get your feathers ruffled. But start acting like its a real car club, with board elections and accountability to members, etc. and then you are on thin ice.
Z
Well said Z..... There are a few that just don't understand the cicumstances, there are a few of us that are very vocal and most don't want to comment on the hard line issues. This is the future of the group so it will be interesting what others feel about how we should continue from this point forward. For starters I would want someone that could and would willingly assist in answering leadership role questions for the group. Radio silence in this instance is not a good thing. An observation here is that as the cars become ever increasing in value, peoples expectations become more focused in all things being a little more professional. If we were dealing in 3500 $ Honda Civics then we could park them in the gravel pit or muddy roads at the conventions,tolerate NO refunds for families that cant make the conventions, No parking organization,quality food vendors, some of these cars are 1,000,000 large and need some thought put into it for over night security etc. Now it was mentioned earlier about 2.0 after 45 years of having a smooth forum outlet why with modern tech did we go backwards with this picture posting format? There is no simple answer to any one problem but at least an occasional answer from the hierarchy of whats going on will calm a few nerves-
Yeah
It would be good if Powers That Be (PTB) could chime in about the present and the future.
We are losing the audience here......
And that's critical.
Quote from: zray on July 08, 2018, 06:13:43 PM
Calling your business a "club" is a neat trick, not unlike the magician who says watch this hand , while the other hand is busy elsewhere.
SAAC is not a club like the Corvette club, or the MCA, both of which have an elected board, and are subject to independent financial review, and both are in no danger of failing by the way.
it's a business, ran like any other business; for profit. Remember that and you won't get your feathers ruffled. But start acting like its a real car club, with board elections and accountability to members, etc. and then you are on thin ice.
Z
Since you state it is a business ran for profit, "who" owns it? I think if the members (of which I am one) knew who and how, then maybe the discontent would be different.
I absolutely 1000% agree on keeping the integrity of the registries and I have to believe there is a great plan to keep them secure and pass them along when their keepers die or retire. At 4000 members the dues are generating at least $200,000 per year. Someone said the forum is NOT part of the SAAC so outside of the convention and yearly publication, what else does the "owner" do? I am not making this statement suggesting that they don't do anything and its very possible those two things take all of the funds and if thats so, just say so.
From what I have seen, the members contribute to all of the content and from what I read earlier, the website forum and registries are all ran by volunteers (Their time is greatly appreciated by all!). I am also not suggesting anyone is getting rich from the club (I mean their business) but it would be nice to understand how it works, what does the owner want their business to do (If it is a business WE are their customer, are they listening?).
Remember, this all started because the owner (too my knowledge) hasn't commented on anything. Guys in my world, just like yours, I am responsible when a customer is upset and I have to deal with it. You know why, because I care! So come on, pull the curtain back and show us some love :)
Quote from: Greg on July 08, 2018, 09:24:16 PM
Quote from: zray on July 08, 2018, 06:13:43 PM
Calling your business a "club" is a neat trick, not unlike the magician who says watch this hand , while the other hand is busy elsewhere.
SAAC is not a club like the Corvette club, or the MCA, both of which have an elected board, and are subject to independent financial review, and both are in no danger of failing by the way.
it's a business, ran like any other business; for profit. Remember that and you won't get your feathers ruffled. But start acting like its a real car club, with board elections and accountability to members, etc. and then you are on thin ice.
Z
Since you state it is a business ran for profit, "who" owns it? I think if the members (of which I am one) knew who and how, then maybe the discontent would be different.
I absolutely 1000% agree on keeping the integrity of the registries and I have to believe there is a great plan to keep them secure and pass them along when their keepers die or retire. At 4000 members the dues are generating at least $200,000 per year. Someone said the forum is NOT part of the SAAC so outside of the convention and yearly publication, what else does the "owner" do? I am not making this statement suggesting that they don't do anything and its very possible those two things take all of the funds and if thats so, just say so.
From what I have seen, the members contribute to all of the content and from what I read earlier, the website forum and registries are all ran by volunteers (Their time is greatly appreciated by all!). I am also not suggesting anyone is getting rich from the club (I mean their business) but it would be nice to understand how it works, what does the owner want their business to do (If it is a business WE are their customer, are they listening?).
Remember, this all started because the owner (too my knowledge) hasn't commented on anything. Guys in my world, just like yours, I am responsible when a customer is upset and I have to deal with it. You know why, because I care! So come on, pull the curtain back and show us some love :)
I was informed by higher ups that the registries are owned individually by the registrars of the particular year independent of SAAC. I am not sure of if any plan is in place for passing the torch. At one time a plan/plans were being formalized. I just hope things have progressed for the sake of all of the work put into each by each of the registrars.
SAAC doesn't seem to have a plan for passing the reins on to younger folks
SAAC has a lot of new faces on the board. All at least 20 years younger than those of us who have been around since 1975. Registrars are always looking for a helping hand for that thankless job.
time to consider a modest, or even immodest due increase in order get the accounts up to snuff an most importantly, forge a tighter relationship between this forum and SAAC.
Now will that SAAC funded forum be limited to members only? Why would SAAC spend your dues to give something free to someone interested in the cars? Annual dues are a cheap fee to learn/access all things Shelby.
I believe we need to reach out to the Gen II Shelby owners.
That would be the Dodge Omni owners - right? TS was formed for the new cars SAAC continues for the 62-70 cars. You do realize that there are over 100,000 Shelby/Ford late model cars produced/modified since the SVT was rebadged as a GT500 Shelby in 2005. There is also no way to have a registry since SA will not share any production/ownership info with anyone.
SAAC is not a club like the Corvette club, or the MCA, both of which have an elected board, and are subject to independent financial review, and both are in no danger of failing by the way.
Shelby has about 1/3 of the possible owners as members. CS built only 13,000 cars in 8 years. Corvette and Mustang draw from millions of owners. Want to make something cost effective spread it over a bigger sales base. They are also probably non-profit corporations like the Vette museum - not to mention funding from the manufacturers. Those are required to have public access to financial data. SAAC is a privately held company and has no such requirements.
No parking organization,quality food vendors, some of these cars are 1,000,000 large and need some thought put into it for over night security etc.
Car value has bitten SAAC in the butt. Since the car are woth so much now people don't put them on the track in the numbers they did in the past. Hell they don't even bring them to the conventions unless it's in their own back yard. Accordingly SAAC has needed it piggyback on the back of other events because there are no longer enough participants to rent a facility for our exclusive use. The other group rents the track and we rent time from them. Tracks have rules that you must use their food vendors and those vendors won't open/staff their stands without a guarantee of x amount of money. Security costs money and even worse exposes the club to liability. If the club says don't worry we hired Joe's guard service to watch your property at the track and your car disappears are you going to sue the track, Joe's or SAAC - I'd wager all 3 since they assured you your car would be safe and you only bought 500,000 insurance on your million dollar car to save a few bucks.
I was informed by higher ups that the registries are owned individually by the registrars of the particular year independent of SAAC.
This makes sense. Probably came about when CS was trying to take ownership of the Registries the work product of the Registrars. They have put a lot of effort into gathering and keeping the information on the cars. I would hope that SAAC covers their expenses and pays them to provide the information to the registry.
My guess is, it is set up as a non profit LLC and dues are contributions to the organization. At least the moderators are allowing a discussion here without shutting things down. Hopefully they don't... So do the moderators from each year car get equal dividends for their input? The organizations business is the promotion of all things SHELBY? We are appreciative of the behind the scenes work that goes on so I don't want it to seem like a bitch session but more of a lets get out from behind the scenes and have a self promoting person that is good at describing up to date things that many are concerned about. If people pay to be a part of something they want to know a few things don't they?
"SAAC is a privately held company and has no such requirements." I personally could care less about their financials but its nice to know who owns it and I assume they are proud of it. Everyone that has made comments only cares about this persons or peoples company, so I don't think the request is to much.
So..."98SVT - was 06GT" who owns it?
This conversation is clarifying which I hope is a step in the right direction. As a newcomer I don't have any historical prospective beyond about a year ago. I've been aware of SAAC for years but really had no idea what the organization does. There are many things that are being done well it seems; publication of the quarterly online magazines and annual print editions, maintaining registries and planning conventions. Unfortunately, the medium we are using to have this discussion, the forum, is where perceptions about SAAC are formed (especially newcomers) and that experience currently leaves a lot to be desired.
Maintaining an interactive technology presence like a forum involves significant challenges unlike print publishing, printed registries and convention planning. Most of the people using this forum also use other technology like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc., and have become accustomed to the ease of use that those platforms have developed after billions of dollars in investment. The more advanced they become the worse this free open source forum looks. Combine that with silence from the Powers That Be and you will have frustrated users.
There are enough other issues that can divide a club; Originals vs. continuations, concours vs. day 2, classic vs. modern day, that we don't need one more wedge issue to split Shelby enthusiasts apart. If SAAC wants to have a forum I believe it needs to execute it well. That probably includes defining what the purpose of the forum is and then stick to just that. Leave everything else up to others who may want to run their own forum, Facebook page or website. Trying to be all things to all people on a antiquated platform that runs on autopilot doesn't seem to be working.
Quote from: Greg on July 08, 2018, 10:21:42 PMSo..."98SVT - was 06GT" who owns it?
An easy CT corp search:
Business Name: SHELBY AMERICAN AUTOMOBILE CLUB, INC.
Citizenship/State Inc: Domestic/CT
Business ID: 0968996 Last Report Filed Year: 2018
Business Address: 37 WAREHOUSE POINT ROAD, WALLINGFORD, CT, 06492
Business Type: Non-Stock
Mailing Address: 9207 ARBOR BRANCH DRIVE #111, DALLAS, TX, 75243 (Note: this is Richard Kottle an Attorney)
Business Status: Active
Date Inc/Registration: May 29, 2009
Annual Report Due Date: 05/29/2019
Principals Details
Name/Title Business Address
CURT VOGT PRESIDENT 37 WAREHOUSE POINT ROAD, WALLINGFORD, CT, 06492
DIRK L. GASTERLAND TREASURER
VIRGINIA BLINN SECRETARY
`
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 08, 2018, 11:48:50 PM
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
Missing 3?
By Gen II I meant SVT Mustang, that data should be available from Ford, GT500 forum, SVT forum etc. Why bother SA? They are a small player.
You seem to have a counter to most everyone's comments, what is your answer? Leave it as is and watch it continue to wither away?
Quote from: 2112 on July 09, 2018, 12:05:51 AM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 08, 2018, 11:48:50 PM
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
Missing 3?
By Gen II I meant SVT Mustang, that data should be available from Ford, GT500 forum, SVT forum etc. Why bother SA? They are a small player.
You seem to have a counter to most everyone's comments, what is your answer? Leave it as is and watch it continue to wither away?
They included the top three in the total count. I figured you meant the new cars - what would SAAC offer those 100,000 owners that they don't get from Team Shelby? They can't tout the race history or championships their cars have won. They can't do articles on restoration or what is concours yet. Shelby decided he wanted to do the Vegas mini convention and took that from SAAC. And most of all they don't fall within the SAAC "mission statement" of backing the 62-70 cars. There is nothing wrong with how it is focused. You get your magazine and annual convention just what they offer for your dues. Will it wither away yes. It will go the way of clubs for the Model T and now Studebaker, Nash, Model A and other orphan cars. As the average Joe who likes getting a magazine and going to an annual convention sells his car to a collector/museum whose only desire is to add to the collection and not support a club it will die. Many collections have multiple CS cars - how many are unaccounted for in the registries 1/3? So figure at least 1/2 the cars are out of the weekend driver pool. More and more of the cars will be taken out of circulation due to owners not wanting to risk them in public. That means fewer cars at conventions which means fewer people coming to see the cars etc etc.
Now how does the club motivate the owners to sign up for track time and come out and beat up their investment? The concours cars are growing each year but you only see them once when the owner/restorer brings it to the convention to get a gold award then it's hidden away until the owner decides he wants his mug on Barrett Jackson.
This discussion so far is fine.
It shows how SAAC exists now. It shows how it has diversified to protect itself as best it can from future attacks and challenges to intellectual properties, i.e., it has strategically positioned itself.
What it needs to do is discuss what members want from it now and in the future.
So far, it is delivering everything most want from it.
It has adapted itself in order to adjust to changing demographics of which it has no control over.
The biggest issue seems to stem from the lack of administration on this forum. Ask yourself, what do you want from this Forum?
That's the question. What do you want from SAAC?
While I am not a regular poster on this Forum I have been a SAAC member for a good number of years and I currently own a Shelby. I grew up admiring these cars and continue to do so today. My perspective may be different than many others but I would like to respectfully share it.
I can only recall participating in 2 SAAC events over the last 20 years or so simply because the travel simply does not work for me. I don't mind my very fair dues going to support these events even though I know that I may not benefit from them (I am assuming that much of the dues go toward putting on the SAAC events but I may be incorrect). Most of what I get out of membership is actually obtained through this Forum. Until recently I was under the impression (my fault) the Forum was financially supported by SAAC but now I know different.
We live in a different age now and I will speculate that many of the members are like me, we draw from this Forum and we look forward to receiving the one publication each year. While we would like to participate in the events, it simply almost never works for us but we do enjoy reading and learning from the exchanges that take place on the Forum. The digital age is here and everyone has long since adjusted to it. With that said, I would love to see the "Club" take a more aggressive approach to this site even if that means the dues have to be adjusted accordingly. This is one of the few forums that I visit on a daily basis and I want to see it be the best that it can be and if it costs a little extra to make that happen, then so be it.
Thanks and happy motoring!
I have a friend who is a Shelby owner and fellow club member who recently purchased an 80's Porsche. I told him he should join the Porsche Club of America PCA as I am also a member of that club. Every time I talk to him he can't get over telling m about the monthly publications he gets (one national and one regional), the scores of local, regional, etc events. There's something for everyone. There are local leaders who split up the work and break activities down into track days, rally, fun casual events, to monthly club meetings hosted at shops in the area that also provide educational opportunities. Porsche sells more cars but also has way more members than car owners so that's not the only reason its so much bigger. If someone is interested in seeing how professionally and different club operates they should check out the PCA, its site and then also its regional sites like the CT Valley Region PCA. I'm sure its a massive undertaking to build the industry relationships, get sponsorships etc to make it work. Regional clubs have guidelines and are held accountable (I don't like McDonalds but sure know I can count on the same look and feel regardless of where I am in the country). The PCA is done so well its hard not to get involved in activities.
It probably sounds harsh but as far as the SAAC club is concerned I don't feel I get much of any value being a member on a "regular basis" but then again I'm a passive member with other mid-life activities taking my time. I maintain my membership because I appreciate that a history of these cars is being maintained (like a donation) and not because I have expectations of getting anything back from being a member. From a club perspective the greatest value to me personally is the car verification and history retention. I get the most out of this forum because I'm looking for restoration information and love the details on these cars in general. Selfishly I would love to see the SAAC club evolve to something like the PCA but that's just one persons perspective and taste.
Just curious as to whether Porche(the car company)supports the Porsche club ,either through cash or in kind disbursement's ....Our situation is a bit different as we are,in a sense,an orphan make....They do make new Shelby ,but they are very different from the early cars( and made at a very different Shelby American)So,Ford has no "horse in this race" (pun intended)whereas Porsche (the company)does and should for marketing purposes...So,does Porsche support the Porsche club?
Quote from: cboss70 on July 09, 2018, 08:20:59 AM
I have a friend who is a Shelby owner and fellow club member who recently purchased an 80's Porsche. I told him he should join the Porsche Club of America PCA as I am also a member of that club. Every time I talk to him he can't get over telling m about the monthly publications he gets (one national and one regional), the scores of local, regional, etc events. There's something for everyone. There are local leaders who split up the work and break activities down into track days, rally, fun casual events, to monthly club meetings hosted at shops in the area that also provide educational opportunities. Porsche sells more cars but also has way more members than car owners so that's not the only reason its so much bigger. If someone is interested in seeing how professionally and different club operates they should check out the PCA, its site and then also its regional sites like the CT Valley Region PCA. I'm sure its a massive undertaking to build the industry relationships, get sponsorships etc to make it work. Regional clubs have guidelines and are held accountable (I don't like McDonalds but sure know I can count on the same look and feel regardless of where I am in the country). The PCA is done so well its hard not to get involved in activities.
It probably sounds harsh but as far as the SAAC club is concerned I don't feel I get much of any value being a member on a "regular basis" but then again I'm a passive member with other mid-life activities taking my time. I maintain my membership because I appreciate that a history of these cars is being maintained (like a donation) and not because I have expectations of getting anything back from being a member. From a club perspective the greatest value to me personally is the car verification and history retention. I get the most out of this forum because I'm looking for restoration information and love the details on these cars in general. Selfishly I would love to see the SAAC club evolve to something like the PCA but that's just one persons perspective and taste.
For me, once I learned that the SAAC is a business and
IT IS NOT a non-profit LLC, that made a lot of things much clearer. I find it hard to believe that the owners of the SAAC have no affiliation to the SAAC Forum but some say they do not. If that is true, then the forum is what it is and it is truly at the guidance of the volunteers (to you that are volunteers, your efforts are appreciated). They should really rethink their bylaws IMHO, there is a reason our wonderful country only allows a President to run 2 terms.
We reached out several years ago with ideas on expansion and inclusion of late models. Promotional ideas to enhance and trigger growth. Essentially no interest was expressed and were told to do what we wanted in our region. We did.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 08, 2018, 09:50:52 PM
I believe we need to reach out to the Gen II Shelby owners.
That would be the Dodge Omni owners - right? TS was formed for the new cars SAAC continues for the 62-70 cars. You do realize that there are over 100,000 Shelby/Ford late model cars produced/modified since the SVT was rebadged as a GT500 Shelby in 2005. There is also no way to have a registry since SA will not share any production/ownership info
Quote from: 2112 on July 09, 2018, 12:05:51 AM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 08, 2018, 11:48:50 PM
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
Missing 3?
By Gen II I meant SVT Mustang, that data should be available from Ford, GT500 forum, SVT forum etc. Why bother SA? They are a small player.
You seem to have a counter to most everyone's comments, what is your answer? Leave it as is and watch it continue to wither away?
You got 8
Principals Details
Name/Title Business Address
1 CURT VOGT PRESIDENT 37 WAREHOUSE POINT ROAD, WALLINGFORD, CT, 06492
2 DIRK L. GASTERLAND TREASURER
3 VIRGINIA BLINN SECRETARY
`
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
4 JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
5 DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
6 RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
7 HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
8 CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
+ 1 Pedigree the real Shelby American Automobile Club
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 09, 2018, 01:01:28 AM
Quote from: 2112 on July 09, 2018, 12:05:51 AM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 08, 2018, 11:48:50 PM
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
Missing 3?
By Gen II I meant SVT Mustang, that data should be available from Ford, GT500 forum, SVT forum etc. Why bother SA? They are a small player.
You seem to have a counter to most everyone's comments, what is your answer? Leave it as is and watch it continue to wither away?
They included the top three in the total count. I figured you meant the new cars - what would SAAC offer those 100,000 owners that they don't get from Team Shelby? They can't tout the race history or championships their cars have won. They can't do articles on restoration or what is concours yet. Shelby decided he wanted to do the Vegas mini convention and took that from SAAC. And most of all they don't fall within the SAAC "mission statement" of backing the 62-70 cars. There is nothing wrong with how it is focused. You get your magazine and annual convention just what they offer for your dues. Will it wither away yes. It will go the way of clubs for the Model T and now Studebaker, Nash, Model A and other orphan cars. As the average Joe who likes getting a magazine and going to an annual convention sells his car to a collector/museum whose only desire is to add to the collection and not support a club it will die. Many collections have multiple CS cars - how many are unaccounted for in the registries 1/3? So figure at least 1/2 the cars are out of the weekend driver pool. More and more of the cars will be taken out of circulation due to owners not wanting to risk them in public. That means fewer cars at conventions which means fewer people coming to see the cars etc etc.
Now how does the club motivate the owners to sign up for track time and come out and beat up their investment? The concours cars are growing each year but you only see them once when the owner/restorer brings it to the convention to get a gold award then it's hidden away until the owner decides he wants his mug on Barrett Jackson.
QuoteWhile I am not a regular poster on this Forum I have been a SAAC member for a good number of years and I currently own a Shelby. I grew up admiring these cars and continue to do so today. My perspective may be different than many others but I would like to respectfully share it.
I can only recall participating in 2 SAAC events over the last 20 years or so simply because the travel simply does not work for me. I don't mind my very fair dues going to support these events even though I know that I may not benefit from them (I am assuming that much of the dues go toward putting on the SAAC events but I may be incorrect). Most of what I get out of membership is actually obtained through this Forum. Until recently I was under the impression (my fault) the Forum was financially supported by SAAC but now I know different.
We live in a different age now and I will speculate that many of the members are like me, we draw from this Forum and we look forward to receiving the one publication each year. While we would like to participate in the events, it simply almost never works for us but we do enjoy reading and learning from the exchanges that take place on the Forum. The digital age is here and everyone has long since adjusted to it. With that said, I would love to see the "Club" take a more aggressive approach to this site even if that means the dues have to be adjusted accordingly. This is one of the few forums that I visit on a daily basis and I want to see it be the best that it can be and if it costs a little extra to make that happen, then so be it.
Well said. :)
QuoteIt will go the way of clubs for the Model T and now Studebaker, Nash, Model A and other orphan cars.
Actually there are 2 national Model A clubs that are doing quite well even though membership is down from a few years ago new membership is growing as a new generation discovers the pleasure of Model A ownership. :)
TOB
I always knew there problems with counting in Florida. Its been a problem since the 2000 election.
;D
Quote
You got 8
Principals Details
Name/Title Business Address
1 CURT VOGT PRESIDENT 37 WAREHOUSE POINT ROAD, WALLINGFORD, CT, 06492
2 DIRK L. GASTERLAND TREASURER
3 VIRGINIA BLINN SECRETARY
`
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
4 JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
5 DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
6 RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
7 HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
8 CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
In a previous post, Bob Gaines said:
"I was informed by higher ups that the registries are owned individually by the registrars of the particular year independent of SAAC. I am not sure of if any plan is in place for passing the torch. At one time a plan/plans were being formalized. I just hope things have progressed for the sake of all of the work put into each by each of the registrars."
As the Cobra Registrar for the past 40 years, what I can tell you is this: I am aware of nothing that gives any of the Registrars ownership of the respective registries. (Nor would we necessarily want it, as some owners take umbrage at the facts about their cars being made public, thinking it devalues the vehicle. The result is a lawsuit that none of us want.) The legal document I signed gives me "ownership" of the work i put into the registry; i.e. I "own" the footnotes I prepare on the various Cobras. All that means is, the verbiage is copyrighted and can't legally be appropriated by others. Similarly, I "own" the material I have collected over the years that has contributed to organizing the facts as correctly as possible, such that whatever is published can be validated as thoroughly as possible. I have a file cabinet with a folder on every chassis number, with letters, notes, photos, etc. I believe these documents have a distinct value, but to a very narrow audience. That data isn't going anywhere except to the next Registrar or group, whoever that may be. Bob Gaines is correct in his belief that, as yet, no successor plan is in place, but that is not to say it isn't being discussed. None of us plan to do this forever.
My point here is that none of the Registrars who have been working on behalf of SAAC over the years have some kind of monopoly on the respective Registries they have produced. We are not compensated for our efforts (apart from a token $5 payment for each hard copy of the 2008 Registry sold) and don't expect to be; it's not what we agreed upon many years ago when we initially took on the job. SAAC retains the rights to the data to the extent that the club has to give its approval to any use of the data we provide beyond its publication in the official Registry, so we Registrars do not have free reign to produce our own independent work.
I would mention further that SAAC has no plans to publish another Cobra Registry any time soon in the form of a printed book. Given that fact, combined with the realization that the current Registry is now 10 years old, SAAAC has authorized The Cobra Experience in Martinez, CA to publish an online Registry that we hope to roll out later this year. Stay tuned for more information from both SAAC and The Cobra Experience as things progress.
*
Quote from: Coralsnake on July 09, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
I always knew there problems with counting in Florida. Its been a problem since the 2000 election.
;D
Quote
You got 8
Principals Details
Name/Title Business Address
1 CURT VOGT PRESIDENT 37 WAREHOUSE POINT ROAD, WALLINGFORD, CT, 06492
2 DIRK L. GASTERLAND TREASURER
3 VIRGINIA BLINN SECRETARY
`
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
4 JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
5 DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
6 RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
7 HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
8 CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
All in good fun, my friend....this is a heavy post
Having ties to the model A club- Corvette club-Porsche club there is a tremendous amount of strength,pride,professionalism and all done very differently. The A group write letters to each other or phone their buddies up informing them of coming events ;D The PORSCHE group were bldg. cars LONG before our OL SHEL felt like bldg. cars, they are very professional take tremendous pride in their cars and how they go about business, it is split up by choice of different factions like the old speedsters 356s 911s etc. That group is very passionate just like we are of our vintage cars or vintage Vettes or Ferraris. Speaking of Vettes when we gather the old cars group up the new cars huddle together and seemingly these groups understand the owners feelings for these cars and NEVER park cars in the gravel pit roads, mud bog entries to parking areas and such. They have volunteers as well but I feel it is nothing more then simply CARING plain and simple. Porsche and Corvette have strong ties to the Corporations maybe its time to forge some strong alliances with them as well.
Both Ford and Shelby, past and present, demonstrate no real support for the early production cars. SAAC does. Thanks to all SAAC contributors for decades of support.
That's kinda sad for sure- There must be someone out there that has strong business ties That could help out here. I wont mention them by name but there are a few that love these cars more then anyone could know,and have the financial ability and great business sense to carry the legacy of these cars into the future.
Ford made it's deal with the current Shelby-American. That is who Ford is paying to keep Shelby's name in the marketplace.
The "settlement" is also involved in this somehow. How I don't know but it appears that it is basically, "you stay over there and leave us alone and we'll leave you alone."
Ford sees little new car sales coming out of SAAC. SAAC doesn't produce new cars.
There is definitely a split.
This isn't exactly a diplomatic procedure by Ford. Ford and SA are corporations. Things can change overnight with changes in leadership. It all depends on who is in charge of the current programs and who controls funding to what.
I don't think that SAAC is recieving funding from Ford? Why would they? The money was going to Shelby for a personal services contract and to continue producing cars.
Ironically it is SAAC that brought Shelby "back from the dead". The story of the Frankenstein monster comes comes to mind. It definitely was SAAC that shot life back into the 'ole chicken farmer.
Then, as in Esop's fable of the frog and the scorpion, the scorpion struck. That's what scorpions do.
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 09, 2018, 09:09:04 AM
Quote from: 2112 on July 09, 2018, 12:05:51 AM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 08, 2018, 11:48:50 PM
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
Missing 3?
By Gen II I meant SVT Mustang, that data should be available from Ford, GT500 forum, SVT forum etc. Why bother SA? They are a small player.
You seem to have a counter to most everyone's comments, what is your answer? Leave it as is and watch it continue to wither away?
You got 8
Principals Details
Name/Title Business Address
1 CURT VOGT PRESIDENT 37 WAREHOUSE POINT ROAD, WALLINGFORD, CT, 06492
2 DIRK L. GASTERLAND TREASURER
3 VIRGINIA BLINN SECRETARY
`
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
4 JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
5 DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
6 RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
7 HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
8 CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
2 of those names are counted twice. A secretary is a principle?
Quote from: 2112 on July 09, 2018, 11:04:23 AM
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 09, 2018, 09:09:04 AM
Quote from: 2112 on July 09, 2018, 12:05:51 AM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 08, 2018, 11:48:50 PM
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
Missing 3?
By Gen II I meant SVT Mustang, that data should be available from Ford, GT500 forum, SVT forum etc. Why bother SA? They are a small player.
You seem to have a counter to most everyone's comments, what is your answer? Leave it as is and watch it continue to wither away?
You got 8
Principals Details
Name/Title Business Address
1 CURT VOGT PRESIDENT 37 WAREHOUSE POINT ROAD, WALLINGFORD, CT, 06492
2 DIRK L. GASTERLAND TREASURER
3 VIRGINIA BLINN SECRETARY
`
Total Number of Principals : 8
Name:
4 JAMES TALBOTT DIRECTOR
5 DIRK GASTERLAND DIRECTOR
6 RONALD RICHARDS DIRECTOR
7 HOWARD PARDEE DIRECTOR
8 CURT VOGT DIRECTOR
what am I missing? 3 of those names are counted twice.
They change their hats.
Quote from: Cobra Ned on July 09, 2018, 09:50:01 AM
In a previous post, Bob Gaines said:
"I was informed by higher ups that the registries are owned individually by the registrars of the particular year independent of SAAC. I am not sure of if any plan is in place for passing the torch. At one time a plan/plans were being formalized. I just hope things have progressed for the sake of all of the work put into each by each of the registrars."
As the Cobra Registrar for the past 40 years, what I can tell you is this: I am aware of nothing that gives any of the Registrars ownership of the respective registries. (Nor would we necessarily want it, as some owners take umbrage at the facts about their cars being made public, thinking it devalues the vehicle. The result is a lawsuit that none of us want.) The legal document I signed gives me "ownership" of the work i put into the registry; i.e. I "own" the footnotes I prepare on the various Cobras. All that means is, the verbiage is copyrighted and can't legally be appropriated by others. Similarly, I "own" the material I have collected over the years that has contributed to organizing the facts as correctly as possible, such that whatever is published can be validated as thoroughly as possible. I have a file cabinet with a folder on every chassis number, with letters, notes, photos, etc. I believe these documents have a distinct value, but to a very narrow audience. That data isn't going anywhere except to the next Registrar or group, whoever that may be. Bob Gaines is correct in his belief that, as yet, no successor plan is in place, but that is not to say it isn't being discussed. None of us plan to do this forever.
My point here is that none of the Registrars who have been working on behalf of SAAC over the years have some kind of monopoly on the respective Registries they have produced. We are not compensated for our efforts (apart from a token $5 payment for each hard copy of the 2008 Registry sold) and don't expect to be; it's not what we agreed upon many years ago when we initially took on the job. SAAC retains the rights to the data to the extent that the club has to give its approval to any use of the data we provide beyond its publication in the official Registry, so we Registrars do not have free reign to produce our own independent work.
I would mention further that SAAC has no plans to publish another Cobra Registry any time soon in the form of a printed book. Given that fact, combined with the realization that the current Registry is now 10 years old, SAAAC has authorized The Cobra Experience in Martinez, CA to publish an online Registry that we hope to roll out later this year. Stay tuned for more information from both SAAC and The Cobra Experience as things progress.
Thanks Ned. It goes with out saying that we all appreciate what you and the other Registrars do. Hopefully everyone here realizes that none of you get paid to be Registrars, in fact it generally costs you all lot's of money for the privilege. I for one am excited to hear that there will be an electronic version of at least a part of the registry and that hopefully will be updated regularly. It would be hard to believe that anyone would want to see another printing of the entire registry for all models when an electronic version would be so much more efficient. It would be great to see the other sections follow suit too.
"I" actually feel more comfortable with SAAC being a business. Having Curt in the leadership position is comforting with his excellent "business" record . I have been in clubs in the past where "direction" changes with the elected officials and members don't always like the "new direction" and leave. Others may and join. "Most" of the time this "wave" motion damages life expectancy of a club. (IMHO) I personally have no concerns about the future of SAAC, it will be fine.
The single biggest "problem" I see in my 46 years of Shelby specific club membership IS the increase in value. Here in So Cal we used to get 2000 and 3000 series cars to our monthly meetings and YES an occasional GT40. No parking lot security , roped off areas etc. Just a bunch of dedicated owners bringing their cars. Value alone (IMHO) has made that a thing of the past. Now the cars are looked at as "commodities " by many that trade them without any passion for them except the value they represent. Long term ownership is becoming a thing of the past. Using one for daily transportation ( like we used to) is unheard of, again IMHO because of the value.
SAAC and it's dedicated members have developed THE source for all information related to SAI from '62-70. There is nothing better.
Randy
I must be easy to please but I've always been satisfied with SAAC and everyone in it. The digital publication and end of year paper version make it more than worth the membership dues alone. No plans to resign my membership any time soon...unless an 18 wheeler on the interstate makes the decision for me.
Best regards,
Richard E.
+1 Randy
There is a lot of time put in by the ones in charge, putting on the Conventions are not cheap anymore and much time involved getting all the details. It's an endless job and glad we have dedicated people in charge that takes their time to do it.
+1...why are we having this discussion ??
I respectfully suggest those who are unhappy or wringing their hands in anticipation of the organizations future, apply for asylum at Team Shelby, Mid America, MCA , POCA or Corvette club...........
Gary
Quote from: TA22 (Gary Goeringer) on July 09, 2018, 12:14:00 PM
+1...why are we having this discussion ??
I respectfully suggest those who are unhappy or wringing their hands in anticipation of the organizations future, apply for asylum at Team Shelby, Mid America, MCA , POCA or Corvette club...........
Gary. I think it was originally a thread discussing how to make the forums work better,but it's kind of hard to remember now....
If SAAC is a business where do the profits go ? To the gang of 8 listed ?
First of all, I appreciate the intent of this thread and I appreciate all the blood, sweat and tears that the past and present leaders have contributed to SAAC over the years. I know from past experience being involved with a very large national marque car club at the local, regional and national level, having lead that organization and represented it at the international level, it is no small task. As for the PCA, it is a model for all to admire. The masthead of its publication PANORAMA and the national directory of club services is monumental...but its membership is huge and the advertising revenues are considerable. Sponsorship of events is considerable. Their HPDE programs are well run and relatively safe with certified, trained instructors. Worthy of note is that Porsche as a company appreciates the PCA and considers it a "partner" to help preserve its history and create sales. The BMW CCA is a similarly run large organization and has like co-operation from BMW. One would think that Ford and Shelby American would consider SAAC to be a "Keeper of the Flame" with regard to the Shelby history and mystique. Is it because SAAC is a "for profit" that they remain at arms length?
That being said, it is imperative to plan for the future. "Status Quo" just won't hack it in this fast-paced, high tech environment. The SAAC Registrars are the "Keepers of the Flame". Each needs a succession plan in order to keep the information safe for posterity. The Forum, as it currently exists is a mere shadow of its former self and, unless it makes changes to bring back features of the old one, it's going to die a slow death. We're not seeing the Q&A of years past with the influx of information and picture archives. Do we know for a fact if the current forum has back-up measures to ensure that a crash, by whatever means, won't wipe out Forum 2.0? Do we need "Forum 3.0"? I'd be willing to pay dues or subscribe if there was a plan to make it better. Stepping down from my soap box now...
Quote from: Blackcar on July 09, 2018, 12:38:38 PM
If SAAC is a business where do the profits go ? To the gang of 8 listed ?
see post #10
the magician says look at one hand while the other hand is doing all the "secret" stuff.
use your imagination. The hand you get to look at is the convention, the registries, and whatever publication is coming out whenever.
don't ask what the other hand is doing (with the profits) cause it ain't your business how the profits get divided.
Remember, just cause the word "club" is in the title don't mean it's a club like a typical car club.
Z.
+1 zray !!
+ 1
Quote from: 2112 on July 08, 2018, 05:57:06 PM
Last, I have said it before and will say it again, I believe we need to reach out to the Gen II Shelby owners. Those groups are full of young enthusiastic members and gives our membership and the original cars a group to transition the overall legacy to.
The cars are 50 years old. Growing and sustaining the club organically is a monumental task. Why ignore 50,000 cars and their owners?
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 09, 2018, 01:44:50 PM
+ 1
Quote from: 2112 on July 08, 2018, 05:57:06 PM
Sage advice.
Last, I have said it before and will say it again, I believe we need to reach out to the Gen II Shelby owners. Those groups are full of young enthusiastic members and gives our membership and the original cars a group to transition the overall legacy to.
The cars are 50 years old. Growing and sustaining the club organically is a monumental task. Why ignore 50,000 cars and their owners?
Quote from: gt350hr on July 09, 2018, 11:37:22 AM
"....... Using one for daily transportation ( like we used to) is unheard of, again IMHO because of the value......"
Even though for insurance purposes, I had another "daily driver", I did indeed drive a '66 Shelby every day I owned it for 11 years, roughly 4,000 days of driving. Not counting the few times I was doing some scheduled maintenance. And I don't think I'm the only one who was making it a point to be driving as much as possible. Now that I can't push in a clutch anymore on a regular basis, I'm very glad I put in those many hours behind the wheel.
Even a Shelby is replaceable, it's not like they made only 1 of them. What the heck is Hagerty getting paid for anyway ? just so an owner can wax the damn thing and drive it in and out of an enclosed trailer two or three times a year. ? No thanks. I paid them to do the worrying about the the big bucks the car was worth.
If an owner thinks a car is worth so much it can't be driven then he better have a 1 of 1 or else the insurance company is getting a very free ride.
Z
Really does not matter if it is a business, club or both. Welcome to America land of opportunities and free enterprise. Is this a great country or what !
Quote from: Blackcar on July 09, 2018, 12:38:38 PM
If SAAC is a business where do the profits go ? To the gang of 8 listed ?
Quote from: zray on July 09, 2018, 02:04:15 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on July 09, 2018, 11:37:22 AM
"....... Using one for daily transportation ( like we used to) is unheard of, again IMHO because of the value......"
Even though for insurance purposes, I had another "daily driver", I did indeed drive a '66 Shelby every day I owned it for 11 years, roughly 4,000 days of driving. Not counting the few times I was doing some scheduled maintenance. And I don't think I'm the only one who was making it a point to be driving as much as possible. Now that I can't push in a clutch anymore on a regular basis, I'm very glad I put in those many hours behind the wheel.
Even a Shelby is replaceable, it's not like they made only 1 of them. What the heck is Hagerty getting paid for anyway ? just so an owner can wax the damn thing and drive it in and out of an enclosed trailer two or three times a year. ? No thanks. I paid them to do the worrying about the the big bucks the car was worth.
If an owner thinks a car is worth so much it can't be driven then he better have a 1 of 1 or else the insurance company is getting a very free ride.
Z
. Cars run ALOT better when they are not under a car cover in a dark garage IMHO 8)
gospel
Quote from: zray on July 09, 2018, 02:04:15 PM
".
Even though for insurance purposes, I had another "daily driver", I did indeed drive a '66 Shelby every day I owned it for 11 years, roughly 4,000 days of driving. Not counting the few times I was doing some scheduled maintenance. And I don't think I'm the only one who was making it a point to be driving as much as possible. Now that I can't push in a clutch anymore on a regular basis, I'm very glad I put in those many hours behind the wheel.
Even a Shelby is replaceable, it's not like they made only 1 of them. What the heck is Hagerty getting paid for anyway ? just so an owner can wax the damn thing and drive it in and out of an enclosed trailer two or three times a year. ? No thanks. I paid them to do the worrying about the the big bucks the car was worth.
If an owner thinks a car is worth so much it can't be driven then he better have a 1 of 1 or else the insurance company is getting a very free ride.
Z
Quote from: NC TRACKRAT on July 09, 2018, 01:11:35 PM
The Forum, as it currently exists is a mere shadow of its former self and, unless.........
Wurd
Needs more energy
Like before.........
I think a lot of new members are under the impression that the SAAC is a non profit club like others. That it is someones business is okay and I have no issues with it and honestly our/your opinion doesn't matter because its not your company. I doubt all 8 people own it but I did read an article where a fellow by the name of Rick Kopec was a co-founder, so I assume he and a mystery person (Ken?) owns it.
Article from Jalopnik
"The legal wrangling between Carroll Shelby and Shelby American Auto Club (SAAC), the car club that celebrates his vehicles, has ended according to a release from SAAC. The troubles started when Shelby complained that SAAC had not been providing him with required financial statements and had been using his name and likeness in the course of for-profit ventures. SAAC, for its part, claims the club simply paid for itself. Whatever actually happened, some back-room maneuvering by both parties seems to have smoothed things over. Full press release from SAAC after the jump."
"The Shelby American Automobile Club has reached an agreement with Carroll Shelby and his companies to end the legal battles and return to the normal life of having fun and enjoying the people and the cars of our hobby. Today, August 8, 2008, an agreement was signed, putting behind us the turmoil and uncertainty that accompanied this legal conflict. We are now and forever the Shelby American Automobile Club. This is the result of some very hard work by people from both organizations. Rick and Ken, as well as efforts by Dave Mathews, Ron Richards and Dave Winkler at SAAC... and Amy Boylan and Carroll Shelby at CSL and Shelby Autos. ... all worked through the negotiations that settled any and all disagreements and put us all on the same page... where we can all get back to enjoying the cars and the history of Shelby American. Much more detail to follow over the next few weeks, but, now more than ever: ..... don't miss the celebration at SAAC-33... We'll be there...Team Shelby will be there... this is what it's all about. Spread the word......It's over."
So either you buy their (SAAC) product for $50 or $75 or not, its your decision.
I believe the SAAC members and registers are great people and try extremely hard to make owning and maintaining a Shelby very easy. As the website is free to all and ran independently of the SAAC, I now understand the "no expectation" from a lot of the members. You make friends through the forum, local meets and the annual meet if you are able to go.
"Mystery person Ken?" Seriously? That ten year old press release refers to Ken Eber, who Carroll Shelby essentially blackballed way back then. He walked away from the club and hasn't had anything to do with it since.
Quote from: Blackcar on July 09, 2018, 12:38:38 PM
If SAAC is a business where do the profits go ? To the gang of 8 listed ?
Why worry? SAAC is not a multi million dollar enterprise. If you think it is , make Curt an offer.
Quote from: gt350hr on July 09, 2018, 03:41:39 PM
Quote from: Blackcar on July 09, 2018, 12:38:38 PM
If SAAC is a business where do the profits go ? To the gang of 8 listed ?
Why worry? SAAC is not a multi million dollar enterprise. If you think it is , make Curt an offer.
I would be surprised if there was much left over after expenses/taxes.
Quote from: Cobra Ned on July 09, 2018, 03:24:25 PM
"Mystery person Ken?" Seriously? That ten year old press release refers to Ken Eber, who Carroll Shelby essentially blackballed way back then. He walked away from the club and hasn't had anything to do with it since.
Cobra Ned, believe it or not, I didn't know who Ken was but since you thought I should, I interwebbed him and found this. I know this is old news to you but it is actually not to me and probably not to others.
Gardena, CA. December 8, 2007 — Carroll Shelby, CEO of Carroll Shelby Licensing Inc., (CSL) has issued a statement in response to allegations made by the owners of the organization formerly known as the Shelby American Automobile Club.
"I wanted to explain my concerns to the members of the Shelby American Automobile Club directly, but couldn't because SAAC has refused to give me a list of its members, even though the licensee agreement with SAAC requires them to allow me access to their books and records. So I am being forced to share the facts through a news release.
Rick Kopec and Ken Eber, two of the individuals who run the for-profit business called SAAC, have said that they don't know why we didn't renew their annual license. That's not true. We've sent e-mails, made phone calls and mailed letters explaining our concerns for quite some time. Except for the message noted at http://www.shelbylicensing.com./press.htm, they went unanswered. For the past several years, I've repeatedly told them that I was unhappy with their disregard of the reporting requirements of their license agreement and the way they managed the club. And, for the past eight years, their business hasn't kept the terms of its extremely favorable agreement with my licensing company, Carroll Shelby Licensing.
Here are the primary reasons that we did not renew the license for this business:
— For many years, I loaned truckloads of memorabilia to the club and provided 1960s production records for the registry; Kopec and Eber promised that everything would be returned to me whenever I asked. In fact, that's what Kopec admits to on page 11 of the last printed edition of the "Shelby American World Registry," which was published in 1997. But they have refused to do so, and I'm told they have sold many of the items, like cancelled Shelby American checks, over the Internet and the like. This is not what anyone had in mind when I let them borrow my things, or my licensing company granted them a license.
— Under the terms of their licensing agreement with CSL, they were required to provide annual and quarterly sales reports, as well as certified statements of sales and a full audit. Also, if requested, they were to allow us 'free and full access' to their books, records and accounts. They have not done any of these things, even though I've personally asked them many times.
— They've never provided proof of the basic liability insurance required by the license agreement. This could expose me personally and all of my companies to enormous liability.
— They failed for nine years to even ask for, much less receive advance approvals from CSL of the thousands of products and product designs they've been selling under license, even though the license agreement clearly states that this failure is grounds for "immediate" termination.
— They didn't even pay the $1 per year licensing fee for the past nine years.
— CSL not only has the right not to renew SAAC's license (which was made for only one year at a time for a reason), but in light of their continued disregard for the license agreement requirements, my trademarks and other intellectual property rights are at great risk if I allow this to continue.
Kopec and Eber say SAAC has 5,000 members who pay almost a quarter-million dollars in dues each year. Then there are advertising revenues, sponsorships and money made at the SAAC national convention. In return, from what I can tell, members receive just one mediocre publication and a couple of classified advertising newsletters.
And where is the Registry that has been promised year after year? The last one was published 10 years ago. I have received many calls from people who have paid hundreds of dollars for a Registry; they have threatened lawsuits against me and my companies because they have not received their book. The basic information in the Registry about colors, how many cars were built, etc., should be regularly updated and available online for instant access by members.
Kopec and Eber recently offered sponsorship of the club to a kit car maker. I have no issue with the individuals who buy kit cars and love the Shelby brand. But, would GM let Chrysler sponsor the Corvette Club? Would Harley Davidson ignore an attempt by Kawasaki to sponsor the Harley Owners Group?
I tried for years to address changes that should be made, but my requests fell on deaf ears. Some of the correspondence concerning this matter can be found at www.shelbylicensing.com. So my licensing company and I asked Eber and Kopec to return the 1960s records and items they originally promised to give back to me, as well as those they have collected over the years using my name under license. And I told them that they can't use my name or the name of my company anymore, and to dispose of their inventory as required by the license agreement.
Now they want club members to give them hard-earned money to defend their business interests. Eber and Kopec are asking people to help sue me when they won't even tell anyone, much less my licensing company, how much money the club has made over the years collecting member dues and selling 'Shelby' memorabilia and merchandise for a royalty fee of only $1.00. Are they fighting me because they're really afraid for the Registry or do they fear giving us financials, which they've been required to do, but refused?
Shelby enthusiasts, as well as SAAC club members and registrars deserve better. They should have a club that provides good value and benefits everyone who is involved. They deserve a club that leverages technology to share information and runs events that encourage people to enjoy their cars. They deserve to be treated with class and respect. To say that Team Shelby will negatively impact the value of Shelby cars is ridiculous.
I've received probably 250 telephone calls from people asking me to check on whether a particular Cobra or Mustang they wanted to buy is authentic. The next thing I hear from them is that Ken Eber has bought it. Where I come from, when there's that much smoke there's usually some sort of fire!
Also, I've been told many times by members that Ken Eber has said that he doesn't need Carroll Shelby. Well, now he won't have to bother with me and I won't have to bother with him. And, it seems to me that they make enough money that they don't need to go around poor-mouthing to the Club members to finance their legal defense fund against me. Shame on both of them! And, as far as Ken and Rick's associate, Mr. Pardee, the Club members should ask him how much of my personal memorabilia is being stored in his garage that, by all rights, should come back to me. Even though the three of them have slandered me by making public statements that I am 'evil,' I'm still entitled to get my personal belongings back. Who can disagree with that?
The bottom line is my legacy should be left in the hands of my family and real enthusiasts. I want to extend an offer to the local clubs to contact my office and arrange for a license to use the Shelby and Cobra name at the same base cost that we offered SAAC of $1. This will allow them to continue their great work.
It's my right to stop letting someone use my name and the name of my legacy company, Shelby American, when they won't listen to me or keep the terms of the licensing agreement they signed many years ago. Team Shelby won't be run that way. You have my word on it."
Why does it seem like every conversation on this forum ends up being about whether or not the cars are driven? Seriously, it's just a choice, neither one is 'right'.
Personally, this is one of the biggest turn-off's of this forum.
Quote from: caspian65 on July 09, 2018, 04:06:25 PM
Personally, this is one of the biggest turn-off's of this forum.
oh there are others ::)
I also found this from the owner Mr. Kopec explaining his vision to Hemmings for his business and it appears to be as he envisioned it. In reading this I don't think anyone should have any issues with the SAAC IMO......
"If you've ever been a member of one, you could either have found a bunch of fun-loving, like-minded, inclusive individuals who made owning your particular brand of vehicle even more enjoyable, or you could have suffered through endless meetings full of political movers and shakers whose only interest was toppling the current leadership.
Rick Kopec and his business partner Ken Eber wanted to be sure they had plenty of the first examples, and none of the second.
Roll back to 1972. "At the time, there were two significant Shelby clubs in the United States: the Shelby Owners Association (SOA), based in Long Island, and the Cobra Club, based in Michigan," says Kopec. "You've got to remember," he reminds us, "these Shelby cars were just used cars at the time. They were at their lowest ebb in terms of value."
In 1974, Kopec was a member of the SOA and was one of a small group who had some ideas about changing how the club was run, beginning with its conventions. "I remember that Carroll Shelby was going to speak for the first time at the convention in Wichita, Kansas. There was this young guy-a club member-who wanted to see Shelby speak, but he wasn't interested in having dinner," which was an additional charge. "The people who ran the club kept him out of the banquet hall-forcibly-because he was interested in seeing Shelby, but would've been happy getting a hamburger down the street," says Kopec. "I didn't think that was right, and I thought we should change the rules."
Kopec went with an agenda and a platform that he would use to get more involved in the club. He was scheduled to present his proposals at the club's annual board meeting, but he got a surprise when he arrived. "They held the meeting two hours early," he remembers. "A lot of car clubs expend a lot of energy fighting off special interest groups and power plays. It depletes the treasury. I didn't want to be involved in any organization if I had to always be looking over my shoulder trying to figure out who was going to make a play for the office," he says.
Ken Eber and two other enthusiasts agreed with Kopec, and they set off to run their club like a business. And the Shelby American Auto Club (SAAC) was born. The leader of The Cobra Club, coincidentally, was at the end of his interest level of running the club, so the SAAC managed to take over its list of members and its treasury. "They had about 600 members in the club at the time, and we committed to honor those memberships until they expired. They had about 700 bucks in the treasury," Rick notes. "We went to 2,500 members in the first year." Today, the club's membership routinely runs closer to 5,000 in the U.S. alone.
In the intervening years, two of the original founders dropped out, so control of the entire club fell to Kopec and Ken Eber. "Without trying to create a dictatorship-which in a sense, it is-we decided to run this club like we would any other corporation. It just works," he says. Kopec's responsibilities include organizing the club's annual conventions, as well as editing its twice-a-year glossy magazine and the monthly club newsletter. Eber, who holds a master's degree in business administration, handles the contracts, bookkeeping, taxes and legal responsibilities. "In 30 years, we've never gone to the mat on anything," Rick says. "It's pretty amazing that we both see things from the same perspective."
I have no bone to pick w SAAC and (except for the Registries) the creeping of time, technology, gentrification/ value of cars have pretty much minimized SAAC operationally.
The catastrophic loss of the forum really highlighted the value of the forum as an online technical/historical/automotive library of considerable energy. Even more granular, there was a small but extremely knowledgeable group who contributed so so much freely of quality information which benefited many owners, restorers, buyers, sellers and fans. I believe the center of gravity had slowly shifted to the forum for our hobby.
Who was to know that it was essentially unattended, not backed up, and not even really SAAC?
If this forum cannot somehow be resuscitated our doom may be quicker than we think (it doesn't look like SAAC will be of any help).
-What left me aghast was that after this forum opened, there were postings which insulted long term members who really contributed so much usable research for many years. This chilled many who had done so much for all of us and really didn't owe anybody anything here.
-Pictures. What more can be said? Without the ability to readily post, exchange and enjoy pictures.......
The 'ownership', culture and usability now are not what the former forum was (or presumed to be). Who would have thunk that we were so rudderless and of such quality?
Some good reading here from SAAC's side if you have the time:
http://www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?3447-SAAC-vs-Carroll-Shelby
Quote
2 of those names are counted twice. A secretary is a principle?
If I rermember correctly a corporate secretary is a principle just like treasurer is.
TOB
The discussions in the Noble Forums lay out the reality of the situation. They should be required reading. And the person who suggested that Rick Kopec "is making a living selling Registries" needs his head examined.
Saac Facebook site states nonprofit organization,
Just like any 501c. Monies back in after expenses, if it was not I doubt
Saac would exsist at all.
Agreed Ned + 1
Quote from: Cobra Ned on July 09, 2018, 05:22:22 PM
The discussions in the Noble Forums lay out the reality of the situation. They should be required reading. And the person who suggested that Rick Kopec "is making a living selling Registries" needs his head examined.
Quote from: Greg on July 09, 2018, 04:20:29 PM
I also found this from the owner Mr. Kopec explaining his vision to Hemmings for his business and it appears to be as he envisioned it. In reading this I don't think anyone should have any issues with the SAAC IMO......
"......The leader of The Cobra Club, coincidentally, was at the end of his interest level of running the club, so the SAAC managed to take over its list of members
that is what my South American friends used to call a "..a coup, in which the former banana republic president conveniently and prudently 'retires' to another country, never to return...."
Z
Another thought from the peanut gallery.
SAAC
As far as SAAC goes, I hope it is still around long after I am worm bait. For the cost of dues ($50 I think) or $4 and change each month, the annual alone is a good return on the cost. Throw in a yearly convention and it is a great deal. Heck, some spend $4 and change each day for their favorite cup of coffee and in a few hours it is flowing down the sewer system. Sooner, if you are my age! The annuals, however, are a resource one can refer to whenever the need arises. Everywhere I drive my cars, be it out for breakfast, car shows, or cruises I find young folks very interested in the cars. The problem is the cars are out of their price range. When you can buy a new mustang for about one third the price, with more horsepower, better handling, and virtually trouble free, it is no wonder they gravitate to new cars. Other than us old gearheads, who else wants to tinker around with these beasts. Maybe in the future the value will decrease and they again will be more affordable. My concern is the movement to have us become drones being carted around in non-descript self-driving electric cars. Now that is a blow to our hobby. I, for one, have no complaints about SAAC.
Forum
As you can see from my number of posts, I do not post much. I do like to read most of the threads pertaining to what is correct for each year of Shelby.
I have gained a boatload of information for free, and have made contacts that have responded to my questions willingly. When I restored my '67 back in the late 1980's, I did not have this resource at my disposal. Much of the information came from cars I saw at local shows, or in magazines. As we know, these are not the most accurate places to obtain information. Therefore, things I did then, I am correcting little by little now. Also, the forum has been a great place to acquire correctly made reproduction parts that are not readily available from the vendors. Is this version of the forum perfect, not hardly, but still a great resource.
Best,
Greek
Quote from: caspian65 on July 09, 2018, 04:06:25 PM
Personally, this is one of the biggest turn-off's of this forum.
that's all it takes to turn you off ? you need to get out more often.
I call it a relaxing diversion from todays modern world.
Z.
Quote from: zray on July 09, 2018, 06:21:45 PM
that's all it takes to turn you off ? you need to get out more often.
I call it a relaxing diversion from todays modern world.
Really? More of the same... 'My way is better than yours.'
Quote from: Cobra Ned on July 09, 2018, 05:22:22 PM
And the person who suggested that Rick Kopec "is making a living selling Registries" needs his head examined.
His house is modest, as is his demeanor and family. Money wise, rumor has it he buried his ill gotten gains along the inside of "The Hook", just down the road from his home. Further rumors are that Howard kept mumbling in his sleep about "was it five or six paces, then turn right"...........
As for the rest, some clearly have a chip on their shoulder, many others do not, I'll leave it to all who read the posts in this thread to decide for themselves which is which and leave it at that.
Quote from: Bill on July 09, 2018, 07:31:31 PM
Quote from: Cobra Ned on July 09, 2018, 05:22:22 PM
And the person who suggested that Rick Kopec "is making a living selling Registries" needs his head examined.
His house is modest, as is his demeanor and family. Money wise, rumor has it he buried his ill gotten gains along the inside of "The Hook", just down the road from his home. Further rumors are that Howard kept mumbling in his sleep about "was it five or six paces, then turn right"...........
As for the rest, some clearly have a chip on their shoulder, many others do not, I'll leave it to all who read the posts in this thread to decide for themselves which is which and leave it at that.
As this is a privately held business, it doesn't matter if the man lives better than Bill Gates or Warren Buffet. The SAAC is not a democracy, I personnely do not know Mr. Kopec so I cannot comment about the man. As someone said, this is America and no one should begrudge a person on grabbing an opportunity to make money at something they love.
Wow I din't know Eber was still involved with SAAC. Rick I have known for years back in the SOA "club". Rick was a great guy but maybe he is getting grumpy like me as he gets older. Eber is a slimebag. Nuff said about him.
I have been in a Corvette club back in the 70s.. Ego's and personality's killed it in 3 or 4 years.. They had 2 drag days every year. What a blast !! Show an shiners killed it.
Was in the Cobra club out of Mich. SOA then the SAAC till the early 80's. Just got tired of clubs.. SAAC had some awesome conventions !!! Now I just don't have drive I had back then. Think that's whats happening with the older guys . Sold my 66 GT350 conv back in 2015 that we had since 1974. Then got one of the CSX4000 cars.. Lots of fun but the attention span isn't there anymore. Started lookin for something else this week. Strangely nothing has my interest. Wife thinks I am crazy. She may have a point. I also don't see "kids" in this market or any market now. They just play on phones and tablets.
After the Shelby stuff I stayed out of cars till the 86 Buick GN's came out. Got into them heavy.. Another fun car. Now they made roughly 25,000 cars. Now those cars "following" are dying off.
Quote from: Grumpy on July 09, 2018, 10:02:14 PM
Wow I din't know Eber was still involved with SAAC. "
He's not, and hasn't been since at least 2008.
Quote from: 557 on July 09, 2018, 08:32:26 AM
Just curious as to whether Porche(the car company)supports the Porsche club ,either through cash or in kind disbursement's ...
Yes - Ford has a Mustang Club laison who controls a fund to send cash and or door prize goodies (all the way up to crate engines and cars) where he chooses. On of SAACs early directors had Fords ear and later when he left the board he was able to get $60,000 a year from Ford funneled to a group in the midwest.
Quote from: Coralsnake on July 09, 2018, 09:47:47 AMI always knew there problems with counting in Florida. Its been a problem since the 2000 election.Quote
Counting to 8 is the problem with the CT corporations web site nothing more.
Quote from: Blackcar on July 09, 2018, 12:38:38 PMIf SAAC is a business where do the profits go ? To the gang of 8 listed ?
Who cares? Who gets the profit when I put a new set of GoodYears on the car?
Quote from: Dsten on July 09, 2018, 05:32:32 PMSaac Facebook site states nonprofit organization,
Just like any 501c. Monies back in after expenses,
Not quite right. Most 501c3 corps at the end of the year after the have met their stated expenses distribute the excess funds as a bonus to the board for their services in addition to their salaries. I'm NOT saying this is how SAAC is handled but many years ago that was the SCCA model and Catalina Island Company still uses it to distribute profits to the Wrigley family who owns 95% of the Island. BTW ever check the returns of the Shelby Kiddie Fund?
As far as Eber goes. He's been gone never to return. Several know the gory details.
Quote from: Grumpy on July 09, 2018, 10:02:14 PM
"......I also don't see "kids" in this market or any market now. They just play on phones and tablets........"
there is some truth to this. I did everything I could to get my kids, both daughters, to have a lasting interest in vintage cars, especially Fords and Ford based vintage iron. Even taught them to drive in my GT350, took them to school in it many times, so they could one-up their peers, etc.
As Grumpy says, having the latest iphone is more "fun" for many kids, including mine. And I'm using the term "kid" loosely. Mine are in their late 20's and early 30's.
Nevertheless, I think it helps keep some new generational interest alive by exposing the under 20 crowd to these cars whenever possible.. There's no substitute for actual eyeballs on the real deal. Movie and TV placement, and special events like car shows and parades are all good for exposure of course, but random sightings of vintage cars, even at a gas station, is a very special thing.
If you see a kid enjoying the sight of your car, pull over and let them get an even closer look. Who knows, you might talking to a future Shelby owner.
Z
and then you have the demographics thing working against "us" too, at least as far as monetary values go, i.e. , there just aren't enough people coming into the market to replace the aging and dying (gasp) baby boomers
The Conventions are great
The annual is great
But....
The only place a whole bunch of us ever got together was the Forum...
The old Forum....
We need that back....
Like An ice cream cone on a hot day when ur 8
Like a cold beer on a hot day right now.....
Which feels like a million years after that Ice cream
It's all about either side's perspective. When Mom questioned
me, she always said "no matter how flat you make a pancake, there's always two sides."
Max
Quote from: Alan on July 09, 2018, 11:28:20 PM
It's all about either side's perspective. When Mom questioned
me, she always said "no matter how flat you make a pancake, there's always two sides."
Max
I like the "no matter how flat you make a pancake, there's always two sides." analogy.
My analogy is "His, Hers and the truth".
Regardless this has been interestering reading.
Quote from: cboss70 on July 09, 2018, 08:20:59 AM
I have a friend who is a Shelby owner and fellow club member who recently purchased an 80's Porsche. I told him he should join the Porsche Club of America PCA as I am also a member of that club. Every time I talk to him he can't get over telling m about the monthly publications he gets (one national and one regional), the scores of local, regional, etc events. There's something for everyone. There are local leaders who split up the work and break activities down into track days, rally, fun casual events, to monthly club meetings hosted at shops in the area that also provide educational opportunities. Porsche sells more cars but also has way more members than car owners so that's not the only reason its so much bigger. If someone is interested in seeing how professionally and different club operates they should check out the PCA, its site and then also its regional sites like the CT Valley Region PCA. I'm sure its a massive undertaking to build the industry relationships, get sponsorships etc to make it work. Regional clubs have guidelines and are held accountable (I don't like McDonalds but sure know I can count on the same look and feel regardless of where I am in the country). The PCA is done so well its hard not to get involved in activities.
It probably sounds harsh but as far as the SAAC club is concerned I don't feel I get much of any value being a member on a "regular basis" but then again I'm a passive member with other mid-life activities taking my time. I maintain my membership because I appreciate that a history of these cars is being maintained (like a donation) and not because I have expectations of getting anything back from being a member. From a club perspective the greatest value to me personally is the car verification and history retention. I get the most out of this forum because I'm looking for restoration information and love the details on these cars in general. Selfishly I would love to see the SAAC club evolve to something like the PCA but that's just one persons perspective and taste.
The PCA puts out a very nice magazine every month but I would cringe if SAAC started to turn into something like PCA. My first impression of PCA (perhaps I am wrong and if so please correct me) was pretty negative as I read where you had to own a Porsche to be a member. The only requirement I saw for SAAC was, ownership not essential, enthusiasm is. The cost to buy a Porsche can start at 3K where entry into the vehicles that SAAC promotes start at maybe 40K (68 or 69 GT350 needing everything).
My personal experience of PCA is in all honesty very limited however what I did see was exactly what my other Porsche friend owners told me it was. Mostly a lifestyle club with a bunch of newer cars. Nothing wrong with that at all if that is what you are into, its just not what I would like to be a part of.
Quote from: Bigfoot on July 09, 2018, 11:09:56 PM
The Conventions are great
The annual is great
But....
The only place a whole bunch of us ever got together was the Forum...
The old Forum....
We need that back....
Like An ice cream cone on a hot day when ur 8
Well said Bigfoot. For us abroad recieving the annual is great but where I have enjoyed my time the most is on the forum. On the old forum we had bunches of threads with great detail and jovial banter that we all enjoyed. We can get that back, just give each other a bit of space and agree to disagree occasionally.
Cheers guys
Quote from: Bill on July 09, 2018, 07:31:31 PM
Quote from: Cobra Ned on July 09, 2018, 05:22:22 PM
And the person who suggested that Rick Kopec "is making a living selling Registries" needs his head examined.
His house is modest, as is his demeanor and family. Money wise, rumor has it he buried his ill gotten gains along the inside of "The Hook", just down the road from his home. Further rumors are that Howard kept mumbling in his sleep about "was it five or six paces, then turn right"...........
As for the rest, some clearly have a chip on their shoulder, many others do not, I'll leave it to all who read the posts in this thread to decide for themselves which is which and leave it at that.
Kopec is not an eccentric billionaire that does this all for free. Where exactly do you think his income comes from? I heard he has potential as an underwear model? He's a little shy about applying for that. He doesn't like interviews. I think that information came from Parde?
SAAC IS a corporation with the term Club in it's title. It hasn't been a club since the beginning. The only thing that has really changed since 1975 is the reality of what a livable income is now. SAAC pays a salary. That's a modest salary. So modest he is stuck with just Hawaiian shirts for his wardrobe.
The reality is, this is so much more then a full time job and the reality is there is quite a large list of members that have made quite a bit as a result of the success of SAAC and frankly I would put Shelby at the top of that.
Let's be frank, there ARE people here that are in the restoration business, parts business and reselling business that without SAAC would just be shop teachers or gas station attendants.
It is SAAC that convinced Ford that Shelby was someone that they wanted back on their team rather then over there at Chrysler. Regardless of how you feel now about Eber, it WAS Kopec and Eber all of those years.
What went down with them and Shelby is partially resentment on Shelby's part but if they had not started SAAC Shelby would have become an unknown on his big game farm in Africa.
Kopec really is Dr.Frankestein on this, creating a monster that is SO successful that even Shelby didn't like the fact that HE could no longer financially control the market place and his "friends" were just bitchin' about the cost that Cobras were bringing that they no longer could afford.
Sour grapes. Pure and simple.
The SAAC Registry NEVER was any of Shelby's "Intellectual Property". Ever. He NEVER had anything to do with that. He DID have influence at Ford in encouraging Ford to offer SAAC access to "paper" records that were about to be destroyed.
As far as complaining about the Forum, there is something going on here on this Forum. People who were big participants in the past are just gone now. They all have their own reasons. The Administrator can not get that back.
The Administrator CAN fix the picture posting issue. Ask Ron why he won't when you see him at the convention.
THE question remains, WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM SAAC?
When you see a thread like this one http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=2355.0 you have to wonder where the issue with the forum is.
Guy asks a question, posts a few pictures to get his point across, receives several responses, problem solved.
So where's the problem?
Maybe some are just overthinking this ;)
Chris
QuoteAs far as complaining about the Forum, there is something going on here on this Forum. People who were big participants in the past are just gone now. They all have their own reasons. The Administrator can not get that back.
I would just bet they still visit the forum and if and when the afore mentioned problems are corrected and everyone quits bitchin they will be back. At least I hope so. I have gained so much knowledge from this forum as well as the Concours Mustang forum over the years that I was able to restore #2060 to Gold level at SAAC 42. Without those folks I would never have been able to accomplish that. Many thanks to those that contributed their time and knowledge to the old forum and please help make the new forum as good as the old one. Also Mr. Administrator, please address these mentioned issues so everyone can settle down and get back to the business of restoring and enjoying our Shelbys again. If it involves $$$ please start a thread and I fell certain most of us would contribute to such a good cause. Just my two cents worth... :)
TOB
If you want to see forum participation decrease even more, start charging people. The forum is not the issue, its the lack of adult supervision.
I made a suggestion on the original forum about policing regional club posts on a world wide forum. Now you are seeing the results of no moderation.
I also complained on 2.0 about people making things personal. Its not funny when people start sending threatening letters to your home or business...the response I got was " lighten up"
Welcome all...you are reaping what you have sown. If you dont weed your garden, the weeds will take over.
Its nearly identical to the SAAC concours in my opinion, people make suggestions and nothing ever comes of it. A lot of experienced, good people who are promoting the cars are left behind, for others selfish reasons. Take a few more good restorers out of the mix and you will have a total collapse.
Its unfortunate because the club does not properly support concours, but they need concours and people want concours.
SAAC has survived this long, they dont need to listen to your suggestions or criticism.
^^^^^ You are very accurate in most statements and I whole heartedly agree except the last statement... They don't need to listen, BUT..... It would be in everyones interest if they did. I got a LIGHTEN UP message but I stuck around- Most left never to return. After talking to a few they said they are done the CLUB is broken. Looking and listening I somewhat agree at least fractured maybe it could be mended? :-\
When you see a thread like this one http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=2355.0 you have to wonder where the issue with the forum is.
Guy asks a question, posts a few pictures to get his point across, receives several responses, problem solved.
So where's the problem?
Good example Chris. The OP posted 2 pictures. They don't fit the screen. It's difficult to deal with looking on a cell phone.
I've posted a few pictures
Here's what I have to do to post a picture.
Go to Gallery
Go to my gallery
Add single. I've tried bulk upload and it doesn't work
Choose file
Add picture
Type in a subject. don't know why I have to do this but it's the only way it works
Go to picture
Copy the BB code and add it in the body of the post.
This is unbearable.
If I post something to ebay or craigslist it's one button without any typing. It asks where it is and I click on it on my phone or desktop. 3 seconds versus 30 to 45. The CL and ebay pages also generally fit the size issue as well
Its not any fun.
I have a 66 I'm just starting on. I'd like to share progress pics. paint markings, primer colors etc. If it remain this difficult I'm not doing it. If I did 100 pictures that would take an hour vs 5 min on CL. I don't have time to build galleries, do links etc. I just want to drop the photos in.
If people go to a car show and want to instantly post pictures it's a pain.
We want people to restore their info , pictures threads from the original forum.
I think the time consuming aspect is driving people away.
It works just not very well.
I don't know how to fix the problem, but with this many people complaining it's not a non-issue.
Answers or the original question
I'm good with what SAAC does with events, registries, etc.
In regards to the forum I used the old for restoration resource, where to go for suppliers etc.
It needs to be easier to use.
dz
Quote from: 427heaven on July 10, 2018, 09:48:24 AM
^^^^^ You are very accurate in most statements and I whole heartedly agree except the last statement... They don't need to listen, BUT..... It would be in everyones interest if they did. I got a LIGHTEN UP message but I stuck around- Most left never to return. After talking to a few they said they are done the CLUB is broken. Looking and listening I somewhat agree at least fractured maybe it could be mended? :-\
I think the lines get blurred.....
Originally I was under the assumption (albeit wrong) that the SAAC was the owner and keeper of the forum and it is not. So the issues that the 2.0 forum has can't be controlled by the owner of the SAAC nor you or I.
I know some say that the forum is fine and it needs an oversight, others say its broken and people are leaving. Regarding oversight, I agree but where it gets sticky is censorship. If a person is being disrespectful then there should be a 3 strikes and your off the forum rule but in all honesty, they could just create a new account so the best course of action is for no one to engage with idiots, thereby it wouldn't need oversight. I actually laugh at the "no stripes vs. stripes" and the "drive them and not trailer" comments as I know people are just passionate for what they like and they poke at each other. To each his own and its your car. Can the forum be made better and easier to use, I think everyone would say YES so maybe "computer works" is looking into this and has a long term plan but remember the SAAC has nothing to do with this.
I went to Carlisle this spring and I was surprised to only see a few 60's Shelbys there but wow, the "new blood" Shelbys were everywhere. Remember when you were 16 to 25 and a 1965 or 67 Shelby was the going thing not a 55 ford or even a 32. It was and you were, "new blood". So from my take I see this, there is a changing of the guard that is and has to happen. The new blood does respect the old iron but they want modern technology and the old iron is 3-4 times more $ than what their new car costs and the bank wont loan them the money so they don't even consider it an option.
For those that have 60's Shelby's if they have lost interest in showing the car then they should give serious consideration to selling it, not for dirt cheap but for a reasonable market price so a new owner can get it out and show it like it once was. The car will out live you that is for sure and wouldn't you want to pick where it goes, I know I do. The new blood needs to see these cars with their kids and they need to sit behind the wheel. I open my door and say have a seat and let them take as many pictures as they want. Its not about the value, its about having a special piece of history and sharing it for a little while.
Regarding the future of the SAAC, read the original intent quoted by Mr. Kopec himself regarding his business and ask yourself, is he doing what he said....I think you will say yes.
Well said davez.
These posting issues should be fixable and I do hope that it is being addressed.
Setting those issues aside, the Forum will be what those who participate make it. We need to ignore the unnecessary comments and move on. I am hoping to see the culture that once existed here come back full force. Let's all be patient and where we can contribute continue to do so.
As far as the "Club" management is concerned. At least we have all benefit from its' existence in spite of what has been said. I for one have never been an investor in these cars. I bought my first car in 1967 because I liked what I saw. The fact that the value has gone up is a two edged sword. I would have probably owned 20 cars had the value not increased like it has. Thankful for what I do have and most likely I will never sell, but pass on to my sons. At least that is the plan for now.
The old forum had a wealth of knowledge and restoration information. We had copied many of those posts and kept them in a binder.
The old forum, like this new forum will be what you want it to be. When it went down and then back up, we decided to restore what we could. About 85% of our brief excistance. Mostly our events.
We are a very active group. Many of our members with restored cars and even low mileage late model cars, keep them hidden.
I admire their fortitude.
We personally made the choice to drive our early and late models when possible. Because one day we wont be able to.
Again many want to see this organization disappear.
Dont let this happen, contribute what you can contribute. But most importantly have fun and keep the spirit alive.
Long live SAAC ! The true home of the REAL ONES !
Tony
Quote from: Greg on July 10, 2018, 10:39:29 AM
Originally I was under the assumption (albeit wrong) that the SAAC was the owner and keeper of the forum and it is not. So the issues that the 2.0 forum has can't be controlled by the owner of the SAAC nor you or I.
I know some say that the forum is fine and it needs an oversight, others say its broken and people are leaving. Regarding oversight, I agree but where it gets sticky is censorship. If a person is being disrespectful then there should be a 3 strikes and your off the forum rule but in all honesty, they could just create a new account so the best course of action is for no one to engage with idiots, thereby it wouldn't need oversight. I actually laugh at the "no stripes vs. stripes" and the "drive them and not trailer" comments as I know people are just passionate for what they like and they poke at each other. To each his own and its your car. Can the forum be made better and easier to use, I think everyone would say YES so maybe "computer works" is looking into this and has a long term plan but remember the SAAC has nothing to do with this.
I went to Carlisle this spring and I was surprised to only see a few 60's Shelbys there but wow, the "new blood" Shelbys were everywhere. Remember when you were 16 to 25 and a 1965 or 67 Shelby was the going thing not a 55 ford or even a 32. It was and you were, "new blood". So from my take I see this, there is a changing of the guard that is and has to happen. The new blood does respect the old iron but they want modern technology and the old iron is 3-4 times more $ than what their new car costs and the bank wont loan them the money so they don't even consider it an option.
For those that have 60's Shelby's if they have lost interest in showing the car then they should give serious consideration to selling it, not for dirt cheap but for a reasonable market price so a new owner can get it out and show it like it once was. The car will out live you that is for sure and wouldn't you want to pick where it goes, I know I do. The new blood needs to see these cars with their kids and they need to sit behind the wheel. I open my door and say have a seat and let them take as many pictures as they want. Its not about the value, its about having a special piece of history and sharing it for a little while.
Regarding the future of the SAAC, read the original intent quoted by Mr. Kopec himself regarding his business and ask yourself, is he doing what he said....I think you will say yes.
Let's take a look at the evolution of our "hobby" first and then how that impacts the forum. 43 years ago there was no internet and 60% of the "now known" cars weren't "known". Buying a Shelby wasn't difficult or "that" expensive to do. IIRC the first convention CS attended was SOA Wichita as I have mentioned in other threads. CS couldn't understand why such a dedicated group existed for "his " cars. They were just "his old cars" and never meant to be something people "fussed about". His attendance sparked up new enthusiasm for participants and for CS who saw this as a potential money maker. SAAC was formed with solid organization and tremendous participation forming more of a "Shelby network" in the pre internet days. There was interaction on a 50 state level. Life was good and "Shelbyitis" became a recognizable "disease" so to speak.Car prices stayed "affordable' until the '80s when the "electronic revolution" gave us cell phones , Internet, PCs , etc and the world started getting smaller. When the stock market crashed , investors looked to "classic cars" as an investment commodity and car values skyrocketed. True to form there was a crash and values dropped leaving many "flippers" buried in their purchases. At the same time this "awareness" and the internet sent lots of people out looking for "undiscovered cars" or those with ''issues" that were previously "not worth fixing". My guess is now over 70% of total SAI production is "known", slowing down the "treasure hunting" aspect of our hobby . SAAC has evolved at the same time. The turmoil with CS was ridiculous ( IMHO) and caused by greed. SAAC was forced to change from a "fun group of extremely dedicated car enthusiasts" , to an entity targeted by "for hire" legal people. Yet with all of this going on SAAC survives . This is a result of SOLID leadership ( again IMHO) and a strong dedicated membership. People with short term patience will always come and go regardless of what club it is.
The crash of the SAAC forum was not the only forum crash during that time. Several others had issues just as serious and they too continue to survive. Many criticize Ron ( or this forum) as to what he "should be doing" . Starting, running, maintaining ,etc. a forum is FAR beyond my skill set as I am barely able to type correctly on this keyboard. "I" choose to express the passion I have for SAI vehicles ( from 62-70) on this forum. Thankfully others do to. SAAC has never been "perfect" and I hope it never will be so that it will continue to evolve and prosper but it can't be done by those who run when challenged. Purists and enthusiasts when combined have formidable strength and can keep the opportunists at bay.
That was about 10 cents worth of "my opinion"
Thanks for the time,
Randy Gillis
Agreed Mr Gillis
+1 Randy
I just wish this topic would be dropped because I do not have the time to keep up with all the posts!! SAAC is a business. If you do not like it go start your own Shelby club!!!
Randy really hit it on the head when he said it all comes down to the increased value of these cars. In many ways it really did ruin the hobby. But interestingly, I recently noticed a sharp decline in collector car prices across the board (although not necessarily Shelbys). Buick Grand Nationals, little T-Birds, C1 Vettes and MG TC's all down. I imagine that has got to do with the change in age demographics. I can't help but hope that at this rate maybe someday I might just be able to afford an original Cobra. Who knows? I'm not sure how places like Legendary Motorworks will fair in the future unless they start investing heavily in Toyota Supras. :-[
The only reason that I care who sits on the SAAC board is so I can thank them for what they do and provide. Much like a private country club membership, as long as I feel the dues are appropriate to the value of what the club provides to me and other members, I sustain my membership and enjoy the benefits.
The war is over. Only those in the room of negotiations know the full story and nasty hassles that they had to go through.
There is nothing to be gained by by bring back the ill feelings. It was a bad divorce and many long term friendships were destroyed. But SAAC carries on. And so does SA and Team Shelby. For me, I finally had to "let it go" (music in background) and get back to enjoying the people and the cars.
So many volunteers work through tedious materials for hundreds of hours that provide us with an amazing value. If some are paid, I really do not care.
See you at the convention for some more SAAC fun!
Quote from: Don Johnston on July 10, 2018, 02:28:18 PM
The only reason that I care who sits on the SAAC board is so I can thank them for what they do and provide. Much like a private country club membership, as long as I feel the dues are appropriate to the value of what the club provides to me and other members, I sustain my membership and enjoy the benefits.
The war is over. Only those in the room of negotiations know the full story and nasty hassles that they had to go through.
There is nothing to be gained by by bring back the ill feelings. It was a bad divorce and many long term friendships were destroyed. But SAAC carries on. And so does SA and Team Shelby. For me, I finally had to "let it go" (music in background) and get back to enjoying the people and the cars.
So many volunteers work through tedious materials for hundreds of hours that provide us with an amazing value. If some are paid, I really do not care.
Amen Don; its over . that was then and this is now!
See you at the convention for some more SAAC fun!
I've read every post and every linked article over the past couple of days and it seems that my original premise was overly broad because of my ignorance. I knew of "the lawsuit" but didn't really know what it was about. I knew there were registrars but didn't really know what their relationship is with SAAC (still unclear on some of that). I assumed SAAC was a club fitting my understanding of what a car club was since they refer to "joining" and "membership" on the saac.com website. I did not know that it is either a for profit/non-profit corporation (depending on how it's listed on the CT corporate search site or on Facebook) with 5 directors (two of whom are officers) and a secretary and I really don't care if the directors or anyone else managing the day-to-day activities of SAAC is compensated or if they have a large bank account or Mason jars buried in the ground. I chose to send my $50 for an annual membership (or subscription or whatever...) and I'm happy to get the printed magazine a sticker and an ID card. If that's all I got I would still be happy.
I'm unable to attend the convention this year, but if some of my $50 went toward that event I hope everyone has a great time and I hope to participate in future conventions.
My primary concern is this forum. Like it or not this is how many people connect with SAAC and for some it may be the only connection they have with SAAC. It is "advertised" as the official SAAC forum where members and guests can connect with each other, ask questions and get impeccable advice on their 62-70 Shelby. It had become a valuable resource of all things related to these cars until it blew up last year. A tremendous amount of effort was expended to create forum 2.0 in an attempt to recreate version 1.0 but without a data backup of the original site it won't happen quickly, if it happens at all.
I'm trying to wrap my head around why SAAC doesn't seem to be putting any resources or effort into the forum (aside from the expense and time invested in moving to a new server and initially setting up the latest version of Simple Machines software). Maybe there is a plan that we don't know about. Maybe there aren't enough financial or human resources to do any more than what's been done. Maybe it's just not a priority or the corporation doesn't care what happens here. I don't know because to date none of them have addressed this issue.
It seems to me that this forum would be an ideal recruiting tool to move someone from merely interested to a dues-paying SAAC member IF it worked well. I don't see why that wouldn't make sense to the SAAC directors, but then again what do I know?
And for those who think this forum is working like a finely tuned machine - think again. Posting photos is doable but it is clunky and a pain in the arse. I personally believe this is an easily remedied problem since other Simple Machine forums work as designed (and this one did at first also). I stand by my offer to help if asked and I am NOT trying to throw Ron or anyone else under the bus.
+ 1 Agreed Don
Quote from: Don Johnston on July 10, 2018, 02:28:18 PM
The only reason that I care who sits on the SAAC board is so I can thank them for what they do and provide. Much like a private country club membership, as long as I feel the dues are appropriate to the value of what the club provides to me and other members, I sustain my membership and enjoy the benefits.
The war is over. Only those in the room of negotiations know the full story and nasty hassles that they had to go through.
There is nothing to be gained by by bring back the ill feelings. It was a bad divorce and many long term friendships were destroyed. But SAAC carries on. And so does SA and Team Shelby. For me, I finally had to "let it go" (music in background) and get back to enjoying the people and the cars.
So many volunteers work through tedious materials for hundreds of hours that provide us with an amazing value. If some are paid, I really do not care.
See you at the convention for some more SAAC fun!
Can we get down to basics here? For the sake of simplicity, can we just "table" the discussions about SAAC and concentrate on this forum? 1) I believe most of us agree that posting pics is a pain and, if simplified, would increase participation. Therefore: What will it take to get it fixed? 2) Also, most of us are SAAC members. We've asked ad nauseum to get the ability to add a "SAAC Member" logo to our avatar. What's it going to take to get this added?
Please tell us what's it going to take. This is 2018. Don't tell us it can't be done. Tell us how it CAN be done. Can we just hire a teen-ager?
Agree Don, let's get down to basics and enjoy, we all share a common interest here :)
+1
Has attendance at SAAC conventions been going up or down is recent years, or what is the current trend ?
QuoteIt seems to me that this forum would be an ideal recruiting tool to move someone from merely interested to a dues-paying SAAC member IF it worked well. I don't see why that wouldn't make sense to the SAAC directors, but then again what do I know?
That is exactly what made me become a dues paying member so I could attempt to pay back for all the help I received from the dedicated members here (You all know who you are). :)
TOB
For those frustrated with the Forum set up, remember many of us think that going digital means using your fingers. Some of us rather tune a carb instead of using electrical toys to tune current systems. So getting info for free is really nice and, therefore, I restrict my complaints.
My mentor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEoWaP4skv8
8)
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 10, 2018, 10:58:57 AM
The old forum had a wealth of knowledge and restoration information. We had copied many of those posts and kept them in a binder.
The old forum, like this new forum will be what you want it to be. When it went down and then back up, we decided to restore what we could. About 85% of our brief excistance. Mostly our events.
We are a very active group. Many of our members with restored cars and even low mileage late model cars, keep them hidden.
I admire their fortitude.
We personally made the choice to drive our early and late models when possible. Because one day we wont be able to.
Again many want to see this organization disappear.
Dont let this happen, contribute what you can contribute. But most importantly have fun and keep the spirit alive.
Long live SAAC ! The true home of the REAL ONES !
Tony
WHAT? Forget being on the same page, we are not even in the same universe.
All the comments I've read are how to keep SAAC going and make it better, I must have missed something?
+11111 I don't see anyone wanting the SAAC to disappear. When no one cares and moves on (by not commenting and asking questions) is when there is something really to worry about. I see most people trying to make it better.
Yes.
What was meant in what you accentuated in red, is that other organizations would love to see a collapse.
Quote from: Rodster-500 on July 10, 2018, 09:33:34 PM
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 10, 2018, 10:58:57 AM
The old forum had a wealth of knowledge and restoration information. We had copied many of those posts and kept them in a binder.
The old forum, like this new forum will be what you want it to be. When it went down and then back up, we decided to restore what we could. About 85% of our brief excistance. Mostly our events.
We are a very active group. Many of our members with restored cars and even low mileage late model cars, keep them hidden.
I admire their fortitude.
We personally made the choice to drive our early and late models when possible. Because one day we wont be able to.
Again many want to see this organization disappear.
Dont let this happen, contribute what you can contribute. But most importantly have fun and keep the spirit alive.
Long live SAAC ! The true home of the REAL ONES !
Tony
WHAT? Forget being on the same page, we are not even in the same universe.
All the comments I've read are how to keep SAAC going and make it better, I must have missed something?
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 10, 2018, 09:47:34 PM
Yes.
What was meant in what you accentuated in red, is that other organizations would love to see a collapse.
Quote from: Rodster-500 on July 10, 2018, 09:33:34 PM
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 10, 2018, 10:58:57 AM
The old forum had a wealth of knowledge and restoration information. We had copied many of those posts and kept them in a binder.
The old forum, like this new forum will be what you want it to be. When it went down and then back up, we decided to restore what we could. About 85% of our brief excistance. Mostly our events.
We are a very active group. Many of our members with restored cars and even low mileage late model cars, keep them hidden.
I admire their fortitude.
We personally made the choice to drive our early and late models when possible. Because one day we wont be able to.
Again many want to see this organization disappear.
Dont let this happen, contribute what you can contribute. But most importantly have fun and keep the spirit alive.
Long live SAAC ! The true home of the REAL ONES !
Tony
WHAT? Forget being on the same page, we are not even in the same universe.
All the comments I've read are how to keep SAAC going and make it better, I must have missed something?
Tony, what I see is although people disagree, most would defend and band together if necessary. Besides, we have the greatest cars in the world ;D
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 10, 2018, 09:47:34 PM
Yes.
What was meant in what you accentuated in red, is that other organizations would love to see a collapse.
Quote from: Rodster-500 on July 10, 2018, 09:33:34 PM
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 10, 2018, 10:58:57 AM
The old forum had a wealth of knowledge and restoration information. We had copied many of those posts and kept them in a binder.
The old forum, like this new forum will be what you want it to be. When it went down and then back up, we decided to restore what we could. About 85% of our brief excistance. Mostly our events.
We are a very active group. Many of our members with restored cars and even low mileage late model cars, keep them hidden.
I admire their fortitude.
We personally made the choice to drive our early and late models when possible. Because one day we wont be able to.
Again many want to see this organization disappear.
Dont let this happen, contribute what you can contribute. But most importantly have fun and keep the spirit alive.
Long live SAAC ! The true home of the REAL ONES !
Tony
WHAT? Forget being on the same page, we are not even in the same universe.
All the comments I've read are how to keep SAAC going and make it better, I must have missed something?
Oh, OK. I wasn't aware of that.
Even more reason to improve the forum and make this club/business the best it can be!
Greg
I agree with you I am SAAC 110% and have been a dues paying member. Back in the day when the hostile take over was attempted, we supported SAAC with its legal funding.
We do not have to agree on many things, but the one thing we should agree is keeping SAAC together.
Quote from: Greg on July 10, 2018, 09:50:01 PM
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 10, 2018, 09:47:34 PM
Yes.
What was meant in what you accentuated in red, is that other organizations would love to see a collapse.
Quote from: Rodster-500 on July 10, 2018, 09:33:34 PM
Quote from: FL SAAC TONY on July 10, 2018, 10:58:57 AM
The old forum had a wealth of knowledge and restoration information. We had copied many of those posts and kept them in a binder.
The old forum, like this new forum will be what you want it to be. When it went down and then back up, we decided to restore what we could. About 85% of our brief excistance. Mostly our events.
We are a very active group. Many of our members with restored cars and even low mileage late model cars, keep them hidden.
I admire their fortitude.
We personally made the choice to drive our early and late models when possible. Because one day we wont be able to.
Again many want to see this organization disappear.
Dont let this happen, contribute what you can contribute. But most importantly have fun and keep the spirit alive.
Long live SAAC ! The true home of the REAL ONES !
Tony
WHAT? Forget being on the same page, we are not even in the same universe.
All the comments I've read are how to keep SAAC going and make it better, I must have missed something?
Tony, what I see is although people disagree most would defend and band together if necessary. Besides, we have the great cars in the world ;D
Quote from: GT350Lad on July 10, 2018, 04:16:26 PM
Agree Don, let's get down to basics and enjoy, we all share a common interest here :)
That's only possible when there truly is a common interest. Too many self serving agendas to all "just get along"
Quote from: TLea on July 10, 2018, 10:00:28 PM
Quote from: GT350Lad on July 10, 2018, 04:16:26 PM
Agree Don, let's get down to basics and enjoy, we all share a common interest here :)
That's only possible when there truly is a common interest. Too many self serving agendas to all "just get along"
True dat!
:o
Get away from the computer,
Get out and drive.
Repeat until calm.
8)
1. SAAC is what it is and thank God for that. It has always been a bit mysterious in its ways, but the bottom line is that it is good for the sake of the cars and preservation of history.
2. SAAC Forum is what it is and will always have the problems that a public forum will have. It is an invaluable resource for sharing current information and sorting out the past history of the Shelby American cars. We all have different agendas and not all will always be pleased. That is life!
3. The value of the cars is out of our control. Enjoy them for what they are now as eventually the world will more than likely frown upon CO2 producing machinery.
Let's stop over analyzing and enjoy driving, improving upon or just staring at these beautiful machines!
Jon
Quote from: 1175 on July 10, 2018, 11:49:05 PM
eventually the world will more than likely frown upon CO2 producing machinery.
Jon
Eventually? I take it you aren't living in a blue state?
Quote from: Don Johnston on July 10, 2018, 11:46:20 PM
Get away from the computer,
Get out and drive.
Repeat until calm.
8)
True Don
Quote from: Don Johnston on July 10, 2018, 11:46:20 PM
Get away from the computer,
Get out and drive.
Repeat until calm.
8)
I'm driving mine to my cousins funeral on Friday, he said that's what he wanted, so I'm granting a dying mans last wish. And I'll drive fast because that's the only one he liked it
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on July 11, 2018, 01:03:25 PM
Quote from: Don Johnston on July 10, 2018, 11:46:20 PM
Get away from the computer,
Get out and drive.
Repeat until calm.
8)
I'm driving mine to my cousins funeral on Friday, he said that's what he wanted, so I'm granting a dying mans last wish. And I'll drive fast because that's the only one he liked it
Giving him a ride in the car? Heck I guess we could give a modern interpretation of an Irish funeral to this? :o (Sorry for your loss)
He has MS and I was up there for a visit a few weeks ago and told him we were going to take him for a ride, he said he didn't have good bladder control and I told him not to worry he wouldn't be the first person to wet their pants in the car. It was a good visit. Every time I talked to him he always asked about the Shelby. Might even stop work today and take it for a ride. Life's too short to not take a ride when you have the chance
Good on you Steve, nicely done
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on July 11, 2018, 02:50:58 PM
He has MS and I was up there for a visit a few weeks ago and told him we were going to take him for a ride, he said he didn't have good bladder control and I told him not to worry he wouldn't be the first person to wet their pants in the car. It was a good visit. Every time I talked to him he always asked about the Shelby. Might even stop work today and take it for a ride. Life's too short to not take a ride when you have the chance
Some things just make life worth living. ;)
All this talk about the future of SAAC gives me a lot to ponder, yes the club has grown and the cars have exponentially had increases in value. I've seen restorations that cost more than I made in my last years of full time work, I've seen the "auction fever" take over common sense in some cases and cause less and less cars to be driven as they are now "too valuable" . But let's remember back to the beginning, those days when everything was a new discovery and when everyone got together it was all about the love of the cars. Those who took the reins in the beginning and collected the information and most importantly shared it all. It's almost 50 years since the "classic " Shelby rolled off the line. Supposed that it ended there, then maybe we would relegated to the likes of Motion Chevrolets or Yenko Camaro's, great cars, legendary performance, but not enough to go around and they didn't have something like SAAC to keep it going. So I salute all of those who went before, welcome those who are just coming on board, and I look forward to future is at this time, completlety unknown, but full of promise and hope. So I suggest that it you have a car, drive it, show it, collect it, but please for the sake of all things Shelby share it.
Worked up an appetite and a sweat, going to lather on some PitStop deodorant and make a mess of Shelby's best Chili
Good luck to all
+ 1 Steve
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on July 11, 2018, 06:03:32 PM
All this talk about the future of SAAC gives me a lot to ponder, yes the club has grown and the cars have exponentially had increases in value. I've seen restorations that cost more than I made in my last years of full time work, I've seen the "auction fever" take over common sense in some cases and cause less and less cars to be driven as they are now "too valuable" . But let's remember back to the beginning, those days when everything was a new discovery and when everyone got together it was all about the love of the cars. Those who took the reins in the beginning and collected the information and most importantly shared it all. It's almost 50 years since the "classic " Shelby rolled off the line. Supposed that it ended there, then maybe we would relegated to the likes of Motion Chevrolets or Yenko Camaro's, great cars, legendary performance, but not enough to go around and they didn't have something like SAAC to keep it going. So I salute all of those who went before, welcome those who are just coming on board, and I look forward to future is at this time, completlety unknown, but full of promise and hope. So I suggest that it you have a car, drive it, show it, collect it, but please for the sake of all things Shelby share it.
Worked up an appetite and a sweat, going to lather on some PitStop deodorant and make a mess of Shelby's best Chili
Good luck to all
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on July 11, 2018, 01:03:25 PM
Quote from: Don Johnston on July 10, 2018, 11:46:20 PM
Get away from the computer,
Get out and drive.
Repeat until calm.
8)
I'm driving mine to my cousins funeral on Friday, he said that's what he wanted, so I'm granting a dying mans last wish. And I'll drive fast because that's the only one he liked it
Much awesomeness in this post.
Truth.
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on July 11, 2018, 06:03:32 PM
All this talk about the future of SAAC gives me a lot to ponder, yes the club has grown and the cars have exponentially had increases in value. I've seen restorations that cost more than I made in my last years of full time work, I've seen the "auction fever" take over common sense in some cases and cause less and less cars to be driven as they are now "too valuable" . But let's remember back to the beginning, those days when everything was a new discovery and when everyone got together it was all about the love of the cars. Those who took the reins in the beginning and collected the information and most importantly shared it all. It's almost 50 years since the "classic " Shelby rolled off the line. Supposed that it ended there, then maybe we would relegated to the likes of Motion Chevrolets or Yenko Camaro's, great cars, legendary performance, but not enough to go around and they didn't have something like SAAC to keep it going. So I salute all of those who went before, welcome those who are just coming on board, and I look forward to future is at this time, completlety unknown, but full of promise and hope. So I suggest that it you have a car, drive it, show it, collect it, but please for the sake of all things Shelby share it.
Worked up an appetite and a sweat, going to lather on some PitStop deodorant and make a mess of Shelby's best Chili
Good luck to all
Well said Steve, your a peoples man. You summed it up nicely. 8)
The future still looks bright! :)
TOB
The future of SAAC
After reading the posts on "The Future of SAAC" I feel compelled to express a variety of my thoughts.
I am a Shelby/Cobra enthusiast and I care about the legacy and future of SAAC and the cars. Other than being a SAAC member, I have no affiliation with SAAC.
For me personally, the most important issue is keep SAAC and the hobby alive. Do we want to have a legacy, do we want to SAAC to continue, do we care about attracting future generations to the hobby?
My personal views are:
First, it is not important to me whether SAAC is a business or a club. If someone makes a profit, fine. A service is being provided and I choose to pay for that service. The forum provides a considerable amount of information which I find beneficial and allows me to receive news, which I would not otherwise know, regarding what is happening in the world of Shelby's and Cobras. Is there another venue that provides this much information? If it is a business, principals should not use SAAC for personal gain other than compensation.
Second, I understand that to some of us the "cars" are a hobby and to others the "cars" are a business. Fine, we can co-exist. In my "perfect world" we all are car enthusiasts with a particular affection for Shelby's and Cobras. Everyone should work together as group to promote the hobby and appreciate other hobbyist's enthusiasm for the cars. We should welcome and encourage new enthusiasts and be tolerant of their inexperience with the cars. No one, experienced or inexperienced, should be embarrassed. There will always be differences of opinion. What is important is how we respond to those differences of opinion.
I also understand the increasing value of the cars has influenced people's views.
Third, there should one document clarifying SAAC, not the bits and pieces, and assumptions we see on the forum. Mystery feeds skepticism and creates rumors.
As I understand the history of SAAC, it was started by Rick Kopec. It is also my understanding Rick is still active with SAAC. If he is still the "CEO" he along with other principals should post a clarification of SAAC so members have a clear understanding of how it functions.
For example:
1. SAAC structure. How are they connected, SAAC, SAAC Forum, SAAC member lodge and other affiliations?
2. Who are the SAAC Principals/directors?
3. Is it a Club or business?
4. Who is responsible for publications?
5. Registrars, who are they, contact information (permanent post on the forum), are they compensated?
6. Is a succession plan in place for all of the above? A Will is written before the event not after the event.
7. Who pays for the Forum?
8. Are moderators volunteers?
9. Affiliation with Shelby American?
If there is a clear understanding of the SAAC structure it will make the club stronger and members would be more willing to help and provide input.
Fourth, I have no affiliation with the Mid America Shelby Meet. I have been advised Mid America is not a SAAC sanctioned event and there is contention between the two. These differences should be mended and Mid America and SAAC should work together. Many members and judges who attend SAAC sanctioned events also attend Mid America. Again, we should focus on promoting the hobby not individual agendas. If the hobby disappears will the differences matter? We should think long term not short term.
Please forgive any grammatical errors.
Quote from: ramrace on July 15, 2018, 12:06:57 AM
8. Are moderators volunteers?
Yes, unpaid, uncompensated, strictly on a volunteer basis. 8)
Quote from: ramrace on July 15, 2018, 12:06:57 AM
As I understand the history of SAAC, it was started by Rick Kopec. It is also my understanding Rick is still active with SAAC. If he is still the "CEO" he along with other principals should post a clarification of SAAC so members have a clear understanding of how it functions.
For example:
1. SAAC structure. How are they connected, SAAC, SAAC Forum, SAAC member lodge and other affiliations?
2. Who are the SAAC Principals/directors?
3. Is it a Club or business?
4. Who is responsible for publications?
5. Registrars, who are they, contact information (permanent post on the forum), are they compensated?
6. Is a succession plan in place for all of the above? A Will is written before the event not after the event.
7. Who pays for the Forum?
8. Are moderators volunteers?
9. Affiliation with Shelby American?
If there is a clear understanding of the SAAC structure it will make the club stronger and members would be more willing to help and provide input.
The lack of knowledge about what you belong to is what feeds the skepticism. From the statements that I read from Mr. Kopec, the reason he started the SAAC was because he was frustrated with the lack of communication within the original club. By not responding he is actually doing the same thing, is he aware of how people feel?
I have read pages #1-#10 and see the same basic posts over and over. It's like going in circles.
Here's the way I see a remedy (or a huge BLOWOUT) is what shelbydoug replied on page #1:
shelbydoug-reply #5-Quote: My suggestion is to approach the people that are running the club at the Convention in August. That includes the President, the Board of Directors and the Administrator of this SAAC Forum.
ramrace, well said...
Bill, much appreciated..
My biggest disappointment is how some members of the forum try to pick at others to the point of confrontation (verbal) over differences of opinion. We all know that opinions are like a$$holes and doorknobs, everyone has them. There are often more than one way to achieve the same results and neither necessarily the right or wrong way. How about we all try to be civil and stop the attacks and nit picking. OK?
my 2 cents
TOB
Quote from: TOBKOB on July 15, 2018, 09:09:07 AM
ramrace, well said...
Bill, much appreciated..
My biggest disappointment is how some members of the forum try to pick at others to the point of confrontation (verbal) over differences of opinion. We all know that opinions are like a$$holes and doorknobs, everyone has them. There are often more than one way to achieve the same results and neither necessarily the right or wrong way. How about we all try to be civil and stop the attacks and nit picking. OK?
my 2 cents. You're right with a couple of caveats:1.Assembly line correct is not a matter of opinion(it is or it isn't ,although there were a frustrating number of mid year changes)2.Production figures are not a matter of opinion(You can't make any more 62-70 Shelby American/Automotive vehicles NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE)my two cents....
TOB
Quote from: 69mach351w on July 15, 2018, 09:06:40 AM
I have read pages #1-#10 and see the same basic posts over and over. It's like going in circles.
Here's the way I see a remedy (or a huge BLOWOUT) is what shelbydoug replied on page #1:
shelbydoug-reply #5-Quote: My suggestion is to approach the people that are running the club at the Convention in August. That includes the President, the Board of Directors and the Administrator of this SAAC Forum.
IMO, I think at this point it is IMPERATIVE to MAKE these people state their positions publicly. Kopec AT LEAST should explain his lack of attachment to the SAACFORUM to the membership. Ron should explain his lack of concern or seeming interest with maintaining the correct operation of this forum.
I think that they should both be cornered until the satisfactorily answering these issues. Satisfactorily to the membership body of SAAC itself, not necessarily to me or any single individual.
I suspect that if both are at 43, they will be prepared to answer these questions?
I think SAAC is at a make or break point right now, and this is going to be the only way that membership will get an answer as to the future of the organization and exactly what this forum is a function of, i.e., SAAC, Ron Richards, or nothing at all.
Many here are under the distinct impression that it IS a SAAC function. Administrative response is now non-existent and in the past inconsistent with what is know publicly.
In all fairness to the membership though, they SHOULD point out where this is all going or if it is all over? Stick it with a fork, it's done?
From what I see, the main issue seems to be the SAAC Forum. There is little if no change in the 43 year old function of SAAC. It's still doing what it has always done. It has adhered to it's original statement of purpose. 43 Conventions is not sidestepping the issues.
I personally can't criticize that.
IF SAAC is dead, at least there should be an official notification so that the proper preparation for a wake and funeral services can be initiated? Maybe a bronze plaque and scattering of the ashes at a secret location?
Quote from: ramrace on July 15, 2018, 12:06:57 AM
The future of SAAC .......First, it is not important to me whether SAAC is a business or a club. If someone makes a profit, fine. A service is being provided and I choose to pay for that service.
Then why all the questions/suggestions.
Bottom line if someone thinks they can run SAAC better - make an offer to buy it. Rick & 3 others started it. Ken Eber, Royal Kreiger and Austin Craig. Don't know why Royal left. Austin left after SAAC got sued by a car dealer who had a car damaged at an event held by a region who said it was a SAAC event but did not advise the club of the event or get an insurance rider. Ken left as part of the recent CS settlement.Rick is the sole remaining baby sitter but from looking at the online corporate structure it appears he has passed the reins onto a new and it may be insensitive but younger group. BTW there has always been a board of directors that held meetings at the convention.
Sounds like SAAC 43 went very well according to the accounts in other threads. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to make it however, no one has mentioned any feedback or discussion regarding the issues raised in this thread. Were they addressed at the convention? If so, what was the response?
I do not recall a question and answer segment during the banquet Saturday night. Unless someone asked questions ono on one in private. The program seemed well structured, but ran a little long. Surprisingly, there were no questions for the four former Shelby American employees. Maybe because it was eleven o'clock.
Greek
Quote from: greekz on August 11, 2018, 01:28:10 PM
I do not recall a question and answer segment during the banquet Saturday night. Unless someone asked questions ono on one in private. The program seemed well structured, but ran a little long. Surprisingly, there were no questions for the four former Shelby American employees. Maybe because it was eleven o'clock.
Greek
Ran a little long is a understatement . The 45 minute advertisement for how great Team Shelby is was a little excessive IMO. They are a like minded needed group ,yes. Glad they were there,yes . Brother and sisters in arms sure . I did start to get the feeling I was being prepped for something with those series of testimonials . The slide show given by the heavy accent British/Scottish? guy with the super thick accent talking about bringing Team Shelby to the British isles seemed to go on forever with irrelevant facts it seemed to me. That did me in. I was wore out and left at 10:30 during the speech about the Lonestar.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 11, 2018, 02:43:20 PM
Quote from: greekz on August 11, 2018, 01:28:10 PM
I do not recall a question and answer segment during the banquet Saturday night. Unless someone asked questions ono on one in private. The program seemed well structured, but ran a little long. Surprisingly, there were no questions for the four former Shelby American employees. Maybe because it was eleven o'clock.
Greek
Ran a little long is a understatement . The 45 minute advertisement for how great Team Shelby is was a little excessive IMO. They are a like minded needed group ,yes. Glad they were there,yes . Brother and sisters in arms sure . I did start to get the feeling I was being prepped for something with those series of testimonials . The slide show given by the heavy accent British/Scottish? guy with the super thick accent talking about bringing Team Shelby to the British isles seemed to go on forever with irrelevant facts it seemed to me. That did me in. I was wore out and left at 10:30 during the speech about the Lonestar.
I was taking the high road. I could have done without the lengthy British Isles presentation as well, or cut down to about 5 minutes.
Quote from: greekz on August 11, 2018, 04:44:48 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 11, 2018, 02:43:20 PM
Quote from: greekz on August 11, 2018, 01:28:10 PM
I do not recall a question and answer segment during the banquet Saturday night. Unless someone asked questions ono on one in private. The program seemed well structured, but ran a little long. Surprisingly, there were no questions for the four former Shelby American employees. Maybe because it was eleven o'clock.
Greek
Ran a little long is a understatement . The 45 minute advertisement for how great Team Shelby is was a little excessive IMO. They are a like minded needed group ,yes. Glad they were there,yes . Brother and sisters in arms sure . I did start to get the feeling I was being prepped for something with those series of testimonials . The slide show given by the heavy accent British/Scottish? guy with the super thick accent talking about bringing Team Shelby to the British isles seemed to go on forever with irrelevant facts it seemed to me. That did me in. I was wore out and left at 10:30 during the speech about the Lonestar.
I was taking the high road. I could have done without the lengthy British Isles presentation as well, or cut down to about 5 minutes.
I hope nothing I said was out of line. It wasn't meant to insult anyone just to convey observations and contex. Given that you took the high road means I took the low road?
Aside from listening to Jim Owens, a true gentleman, the banquet at SAAC 43 was a complete wast of time. Well not totally, the food was spot on. I'm tired of the Shelby American come buy our new cars sales pitch whenever they are involved in a event. As paying members we could be looked at as stockholders in SAAC. How about letting us know how the club as a whole is doing, financials, membership, things that anyone who is paying for membership to a organization would expect. I hear these things from my local region on a regular bases but not from the national. It would have been nice to hear from whoever is on the board of directors, as to the current status of the club.
When I ran my region I did my best to keep everyone informed.
Quote from: 6s1802 on August 11, 2018, 05:29:07 PM
.................... As paying members we could be looked at as stockholders in SAAC. How about letting us know how the club as a whole is doing, financials, membership, things that anyone who is paying for membership to a organization would expect. I hear these things from my local region on a regular bases but not from the national. It would have been nice to hear from whoever is on the board of directors, as to the current status of the club.
Remember this is neither a traditional car "club", like your regional, many national or local clubs, nor a publically held business/company with shareholders.
We are SAAC members like some of us are members of Costco or Sam's Club but unlike those businesses the records are not published or made available since they are privately owned from my understanding. Nor is it a requirement since it is not.
Quote from: 6s1802 on August 11, 2018, 05:29:07 PM
Aside from listening to Jim Owens, a true gentleman, the banquet at SAAC 43 was a complete wast of time. Well not totally, the food was spot on. I'm tired of the Shelby American come buy our new cars sales pitch whenever they are involved in a event. As paying members we could be looked at as stockholders in SAAC. How about letting us know how the club as a whole is doing, financials, membership, things that anyone who is paying for membership to a organization would expect. I hear these things from my local region on a regular bases but not from the national. It would have been nice to hear from whoever is on the board of directors, as to the current status of the club.
When I ran my region I did my best to keep everyone informed.
Judging by the presentation and the reaction of the crowd I have to assume that no one had any questions about anything including this Forum. That was the time and the place to ask. If you held your tongue then everything was ok with you?
Lol, I knew that would happen. Seems nobody had the balls to confront the hierarchy ::)
Quote from: 427heaven on July 08, 2018, 08:09:51 PM
Well said Z..... There are a few that just don't understand the cicumstances, there are a few of us that are very vocal and most don't want to comment on the hard line issues. This is the future of the group so it will be interesting what others feel about how we should continue from this point forward. For starters I would want someone that could and would willingly assist in answering leadership role questions for the group. Radio silence in this instance is not a good thing. An observation here is that as the cars become ever increasing in value, peoples expectations become more focused in all things being a little more professional. If we were dealing in 3500 $ Honda Civics then we could park them in the gravel pit or muddy roads at the conventions,tolerate NO refunds for families that cant make the conventions, No parking organization,quality food vendors, some of these cars are 1,000,000 large and need some thought put into it for over night security etc. Now it was mentioned earlier about 2.0 after 45 years of having a smooth forum outlet why with modern tech did we go backwards with this picture posting format? There is no simple answer to any one problem but at least an occasional answer from the hierarchy of whats going on will calm a few nerves-
"Traditional" car club or not it would be nice to hear from the board of directors once in a while as to the status of the club. When SAAC first started Eber would give a treasury report, weather it was accurate or not, at least it was there.
Quote from: 6s1802 on August 11, 2018, 07:16:20 PM
"Traditional" car club or not it would be nice to hear from the board of directors once in a while as to the status of the club.
Wurd
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 11, 2018, 05:15:48 PM
Quote from: greekz on August 11, 2018, 04:44:48 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 11, 2018, 02:43:20 PM
Quote from: greekz on August 11, 2018, 01:28:10 PM
I do not recall a question and answer segment during the banquet Saturday night. Unless someone asked questions ono on one in private. The program seemed well structured, but ran a little long. Surprisingly, there were no questions for the four former Shelby American employees. Maybe because it was eleven o'clock.
Greek
Ran a little long is a understatement . The 45 minute advertisement for how great Team Shelby is was a little excessive IMO. They are a like minded needed group ,yes. Glad they were there,yes . Brother and sisters in arms sure . I did start to get the feeling I was being prepped for something with those series of testimonials . The slide show given by the heavy accent British/Scottish? guy with the super thick accent talking about bringing Team Shelby to the British isles seemed to go on forever with irrelevant facts it seemed to me. That did me in. I was wore out and left at 10:30 during the speech about the Lonestar.
I was taking the high road. I could have done without the lengthy British Isles presentation as well, or cut down to about 5 minutes.
I hope nothing I said was out of line. It wasn't meant to insult anyone just to convey observations and contex. Given that you took the high road means I took the low road?
Not at all, Bob. I think you took the correct road. Your observations are right on. By taking the high road I took the easy road. Sometimes I really do not like to speak my mind, because it might be taken the wrong way.
The speaker presentations used to start before dinner was over. This one was long due to lengthy Ford and SAI dog and pony shows. Part of those were fun, but I did get bored with the Ford sales meeting pep talk and the SA pitches that went beyond what they were producing. The worst was the clueless Team Shelby presentation (I am a member as well). Best SAAC rebuttal ever to someone who has no sense or knowledge of Shelby history, the person, the SAAC founding principles, the factories, the people). The fact that the current and past SAAC board and membership did not walk out showed a lot more class than the presenter. I do not know how much Ford and TS had invested into this event but I think they forgot the title of the Convention.
I did my Q & A personally afterwards to the very accommodating individual panel members. 8)
So did anyone there glean anything from the Powers That Be?
Quote from: Bigfoot on July 08, 2018, 08:56:41 PM
Yeah
It would be good if Powers That Be (PTB) could chime in about the present and the future.
We are losing the audience here......
And that's critical.
That is 100 % true ......
All of us old school SAAC folks knew going into this thing it was going to be a team shelby show. If this is the trend of future conventions I don't know if I will be attending any more.
There is no way that Kopec or anyone else doesn't know the feelings of the membership. It should have been addressed at the Convention either voluntarily by him or by approaching him about.
That is the situation with Ron and the running of this forum as well. Do you think it was coincidental that all of a sudden, two weeks out, the picture issue was resolved? He didn't want to have to deal with that in personal confrontations at the convention.
If the membership didn't deal directly with these issues at the Convention when everyone was there, then you missed your opportunity. Silence just gave them all a vote of confidence to whatever they choose to do. That's just the bottom line here.
What's the opinion of you all in comparing Tulsa with the SAAC convention?
Max
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 12, 2018, 11:38:11 AM
There is no way that Kopec or anyone else doesn't know the feelings of the membership. It should have been addressed at the Convention either voluntarily by him or by approaching him about.
That is the situation with Ron and the running of this forum as well. Do you think it was coincidental that all of a sudden, two weeks out, the picture issue was resolved? He didn't want to have to deal with that in personal confrontations at the convention.
If the membership didn't deal directly with these issues at the Convention when everyone was there, then you missed your opportunity. Silence just gave them all a vote of confidence to whatever they choose to do. That's just the bottom line here.
this pretty much sums it up/ have had those conversations / ideas / not any more
I don't mean to beat the same drum but guys & gals you have to remember, this is a business of which you do not own. Once I personally found that out, coupled with the fact that the ownership doesn't ever say anything to the subscribers/customers it changed my expectation. Every person that pays their money must understand that you can have an opinion but only the person that owns the business opinions matter. In other words, as long as you pay they will continue. I'm not advocating mass exodus or forming another company, I'm simply saying that this is no different than your cable company, satellite provider, car wash, restaurant, etc.... you either keep paying because it meets your expectation or you don't.
I do believe more people would benefit if the SAAC was a true non profit club with an elected board because I think people get tired and new blood does bring fresh ideas. I belong to the Fairlane Club of America and it seems to be a truly fair and balanced club. The board seems to listen and the members get along. The club puts out 6 paper magazines a year and has a national meet.
I think the SAAC laid a good foundation, my question is.... where is the company going?
So much drama... :o
Quote from: Alan on August 12, 2018, 11:51:33 AM
What's the opinion of you all in comparing Tulsa with the SAAC convention?
Max
BIG regional show - run/owned by a few. Annual event same place same time easy to do year after year. Also at one point Ford was dumping 60 grand a year into the show - with no accounting. Most of that money found it's way into the pockets of a couple people. Don't think that didn't cause problems when the rank and file volunteers found out.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on August 12, 2018, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: Alan on August 12, 2018, 11:51:33 AM
What's the opinion of you all in comparing Tulsa with the SAAC convention?
Max
BIG regional show - run/owned by a few. Annual event same place same time easy to do year after year. Also at one point Ford was dumping 60 grand a year into the show - with no accounting. Most of that money found it's way into the pockets of a couple people. Don't think that didn't cause problems when the rank and file volunteers found out.
Wow. That's really a shame - I had no idea!
I've never been, but Mid-America is CERTAINLY still on my bucket list.
Thanks for sharing!
Quote from: Greg on August 12, 2018, 12:54:55 PM
I do believe more people would benefit if the SAAC was a true non profit club with an elected board because I think people get tired and new blood does bring fresh ideas.
.... where is the company going?
Yes
Who knows them best and can act upon this?
When people don't show up in mass on the left coast for the big Daddy of events, it appears that we are gaining speed down this slippery slope. What most feel here is its like family but if we are on this journey and Grand pappy is driving and he is not answering questions, we don't know how he's feeling, where we are going etc, NO? Like what was mentioned earlier that people are not taking that vacation like years before at these events.With no enthusiasm,no professional business back ground no updates the peanut gallery looks for other venues. :-[ Time will tell-
Quote from: 427heaven on August 12, 2018, 09:33:31 PM
When people don't show up in mass on the left coast for the big Daddy of events, it appears that we are gaining speed down this slippery slope. What most feel here is its like family but if we are on this journey and Grand pappy is driving and he is not answering questions, we don't know how he's feeling, where we are going etc, NO? Like what was mentioned earlier that people are not taking that vacation like years before at these events.With no enthusiasm,no professional business back ground no updates the peanut gallery looks for other venues. :-[ Time will tell-
Consider it a phasing out.
Every drop in the strength/popularity of SAAC can be tied to a lawsuit. This convention was hurt by one as I understand it. Please correct me if I'm wrong
There seems to be a lot of misconceptions about the history of SAAC, the leadership, its goals and the forum.
Much of whats been stated doesnt match what I have experienced.
Quote from: gt350hr on August 13, 2018, 11:29:24 AM
Every drop in the strength/popularity of SAAC can be tied to a lawsuit. This convention was hurt by one as I understand it. Please correct me if I'm wrong
Interesting. I would be interested in hearing more.
Lawsuits stifle a lot of innovation and drive the cost of living up unnaturally.
Several well know "regular attendees" were conspicuously absent. Though I went , "rules" changes kept me from taking my car . I was in charge of the drag event and didn't want to let people down. Session time was shortened without my prior knowledge . Soldiered on and participants still had lots of fun!
Randy
Quote from: Coralsnake on August 13, 2018, 12:11:45 PM
There seems to be a lot of misconceptions about the history of SAAC, the leadership, its goals and the forum.
Much of whats been stated doesnt match what I have experienced.
Unfortunately Pete we live in a world of "fake news".
Grampa use to say "don't believe anything you read and only half of what you hear"
Went back to a 1986 SAAC/Hot Rod publication and reviewing that I have the deepest respect for the leading group maintaining their enthusiasm over 32 (respectively 43 years since 1975), especially the better known registry owners. I had the pleasure to be in touch with some of them over decades and I hope they only pass the torch whenever it is necessary to the same sort of people.
Actually I don't think members should discuss the future of the SAAC. I have trust in this group of dedicated people who have spent the better half of their lifetime sharing knowledge and enthusiasm. As somebody else said somewhere - we members can follow or not and decide on the membership each year. I was a club editor for 25 years and am still moderating our club forum, which I founded, so I know what the investment timewise is. Lost our forum at one time as well, just the IT guy could save it in an enormous effort with many nightshifts.
Membership and user figures are the best indicator to them what works and what not and if they have to improve.
(http://www.ponysite.de/SAAC_1986.jpg)
Like at a rally I think it makes little sense to discuss the route amongst participants.
(http://www.ponysite.de/SAAC_2018.jpg)
Just my 5 cents from across the pond.
The amount of people and actual individuals who did not show up speaks volumes.
Quote from: Bigfoot on August 13, 2018, 04:44:33 PM
The amount of people and actual individuals who did not show up speaks volumes.
So what was the reason these folks did not show up? Are they just loosing interest with a national convention, not happy with the current 'administration', or is there some other reason that would stop them from attending?
Lets get to the point. I am assuming most of the members are in their 50' to 60's which is where I am at. I have 2 sons that are still into fast cars , but they are restomod's . We being the club members are fighting an uphill battle as our fathers did with the cars that they grew up with. This is all a FAD , that will soon die out. I am not saying that this is what I am looking forward too, but there is a new wave of Millennial that are coming up that don't care about these cars? I will still be a strong supporter of the SAAC Forum, as I love the cars of that ERA. But just my honest opinion. Thanks for reading this Steve
Quote from: Steve Z on August 13, 2018, 08:31:03 PM
Lets get to the point. I am assuming most of the members are in their 50' to 60's which is where I am at. I have 2 sons that are still into fast cars , but they are restomod's . We being the club members are fighting an uphill battle as our fathers did with the cars that they grew up with. This is all a FAD , that will soon die out. I am not saying that this is what I am looking forward too, but there is a new wave of Millennial that are coming up that don't care about these cars? I will still be a strong supporter of the SAAC Forum, as I love the cars of that ERA. But just my honest opinion. Thanks for reading this Steve
Steve, I don't think its because they (the millennial's) don't care for the cars. Its more that they can't afford them, banks will not loan $ against them so they buy what they can get a loan for. Don't get me wrong the amenities of a new car also helps. Our cars have become and will still be investments and fewer and fewer will get driven in my opinion. Greg
Quote from: Greg on August 13, 2018, 10:45:50 PM
Quote from: Steve Z on August 13, 2018, 08:31:03 PM
Lets get to the point. I am assuming most of the members are in their 50' to 60's which is where I am at. I have 2 sons that are still into fast cars , but they are restomod's . We being the club members are fighting an uphill battle as our fathers did with the cars that they grew up with. This is all a FAD , that will soon die out. I am not saying that this is what I am looking forward too, but there is a new wave of Millennial that are coming up that don't care about these cars? I will still be a strong supporter of the SAAC Forum, as I love the cars of that ERA. But just my honest opinion. Thanks for reading this Steve
Steve, I don't think its because they (the millennial's) don't care for the cars. Its more that they can't afford them, banks will not loan $ against them so they buy what they can get a loan for. Don't get me wrong the amenities of a new car also helps. Our cars have become and will still be investments and fewer and fewer will get driven in my opinion. Greg
No different now. Wanted 289 Cobra, couldn't get a $4000 loan for a used car. But for the new 1968 GT500KR convertible, no problem. Still have the KR, more than likely would have killed myself in the Cobra.
John
Quote from: Bigfoot on August 13, 2018, 04:44:33 PM
The amount of people and actual individuals who did not show up speaks volumes.
Was it because of dissatisfaction with the club or was it merely due to the distant needed to travel to this convention?
QSS
Quote from: QuickSilverShelby on August 14, 2018, 01:19:18 AM
Quote from: Bigfoot on August 13, 2018, 04:44:33 PM
The amount of people and actual individuals who did not show up speaks volumes.
Was it because of dissatisfaction with the club or was it merely due to the distant needed to travel to this convention?
QSS
This convention wasn't any further away from members than any others. Allot don't bring cars so it's just either a plane trip to one airport or another. Some members never get an opportunity to have one close by.
What ever the answer we can be sure there is no one answer for everyone that didn't choose to attend this year or any other
Quote from: J_Speegle on August 14, 2018, 04:06:51 AM
Quote from: QuickSilverShelby on August 14, 2018, 01:19:18 AM
Quote from: Bigfoot on August 13, 2018, 04:44:33 PM
The amount of people and actual individuals who did not show up speaks volumes.
Was it because of dissatisfaction with the club or was it merely due to the distant needed to travel to this convention?
QSS
This convention wasn't any further away from members than any others. Allot don't bring cars so it's just either a plane trip to one airport or another. Some members never get an opportunity to have one close by.
What ever the answer we can be sure there is no one answer for everyone that didn't choose to attend this year or any other
I can't speak officially for SAAC but lets just say that "I have heard rumors" that California was NEVER a preferred location for a SAAC Convention after the first few proved unproductive.
There was always something else going on such as the Mini-Nats and for WHATEVER reason, locals preferred that to SAAC. A wine and cheese tasting festival, an air sniffing festival in the mountains to see if you could smell the wild cannabis, releasing the butterflies so they could be free, you name it?
A California convention location, all of it, was just a appeasement to a small group of local members who always demanded representation and threatened seperation. They have always promised to deliver membership to the convention and of course, never have. A smallish turn out there is not shocking, it's expected. There seems to be this east coast/west coast animosity that shows it's nasty head around California convention time?
The powers that be just yielded to the pressure rather then risk a split into two separate clubs but the reality is that there really are two not to mention the Oklahoma group.
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 14, 2018, 07:49:30 AM
I can't speak officially for SAAC but lets just say that "I have heard rumors" that California was NEVER a preferred location for a SAAC Convention after the first few proved unproductive.
There was always something else going on such as the Mini-Nats and for WHATEVER reason, locals preferred that to SAAC. A wine and cheese tasting festival, an air sniffing festival in the mountains to see if you could smell the wild cannabis, releasing the butterflies so they could be free, you name it?
A California convention location, all of it, was just a appeasement to a small group of local members who always demanded representation and threatened seperation. They have always promised to deliver membership to the convention and of course, never have. A smallish turn out there is not shocking, it's expected. There seems to be this east coast/west coast animosity that shows it's nasty head around California convention time?
The powers that be just yielded to the pressure rather then risk a split into two separate clubs but the reality is that there really are two not to mention the Oklahoma group.
I did not know all of that. I guess I'm naive to the inner workings and politics of the national club.
Living up here in the great white north guarantees that I will never have a national convention anywhere near me in my lifetime. That's the reality of being apart of this club.
Pittsburgh next year will be a long haul for me as was Indy and Mid Ohio. Sonoma was super easy to get to for me, 2 1/2 hour flight and bam, there I was in heaven, amid hundreds of my favorite cars.
I don't actually know if Sonoma was bigger or smaller than Indy or Mid Ohio and I don't really care. I do know I had a great time, visited an incredible garage and bought an incredible dining table from them (Denbeste Motor Sports), saw an amazing museum(Cobra Experience)and had an absolutely great Saturday at Sonoma/Sears Point.
I realize that many of you have gone to 30 and 40 of these national conventions and it may not be "like the good old days" but I'm loving it.
I hope our club can stick together and resolve the internal issues and become stronger than ever. The major issue I see is that this club is a for profit club. I'm ok with that but I sure hope we can get it together. It's hard to read some of these posts and maintain my youthful enthusiasm. After all I'm still in my 40's and somewhat of a young pup compared to you all ;D
QSS
Every "entity" survives by support. I fit loses support it collapses. I have seen several forums go away because "go to" people leave. This forum has THE greatest network of experts in the field of "Shelbydom". IF that network falls apart because the experts flee , this forum will be doomed. ( IMHO). "To me" ownership is not a big deal , someone has to run it and if there is "something to lose" they usually put forth the effort to keep it going. Sure SAAC is not the same as it used to be but little is as time marches on.
Randy
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 14, 2018, 07:49:30 AM
Quote from: J_Speegle on August 14, 2018, 04:06:51 AM
Quote from: QuickSilverShelby on August 14, 2018, 01:19:18 AM
Quote from: Bigfoot on August 13, 2018, 04:44:33 PM
The amount of people and actual individuals who did not show up speaks volumes.
Was it because of dissatisfaction with the club or was it merely due to the distant needed to travel to this convention?
QSS
This convention wasn't any further away from members than any others. Allot don't bring cars so it's just either a plane trip to one airport or another. Some members never get an opportunity to have one close by.
What ever the answer we can be sure there is no one answer for everyone that didn't choose to attend this year or any other
I can't speak officially for SAAC but lets just say that "I have heard rumors" that California was NEVER a preferred location for a SAAC Convention after the first few proved unproductive.
I attended the Fontana, CA show with Kiwi and my son and I could not believe how few people were there......
Lack of participation
Why.....
Quote from: QuickSilverShelby on August 14, 2018, 01:19:18 AM
Quote from: Bigfoot on August 13, 2018, 04:44:33 PM
The amount of people and actual individuals who did not show up speaks volumes.
Was it because of dissatisfaction with the club or was it merely due to the distant needed to travel to this convention?
QSS
Not distance
Quote from: gt350hr on August 14, 2018, 11:03:49 AM
Every "entity" survives by support. I fit loses support it collapses. I have seen several forums go away because "go to" people leave. This forum has THE greatest network of experts in the field of "Shelbydom". IF that network falls apart because the experts flee , this forum will be doomed. ( IMHO). "To me" ownership is not a big deal , someone has to run it and if there is "something to lose" they usually put forth the effort to keep it going. Sure SAAC is not the same as it used to be but little is as time marches on.
Randy
A question that I have is the SAAC the club and who we pay membership THE SAME as the SAAC Forum? Meaning the same people? As I see it the forum is were we have all the "experts" as I see it, but I may be wrong.
Doug
Quote from: Doug C on August 14, 2018, 01:53:11 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on August 14, 2018, 11:03:49 AM
Every "entity" survives by support. I fit loses support it collapses. I have seen several forums go away because "go to" people leave. This forum has THE greatest network of experts in the field of "Shelbydom". IF that network falls apart because the experts flee , this forum will be doomed. ( IMHO). "To me" ownership is not a big deal , someone has to run it and if there is "something to lose" they usually put forth the effort to keep it going. Sure SAAC is not the same as it used to be but little is as time marches on.
Randy
A question that I have is the SAAC the club and who we pay membership THE SAME as the SAAC Forum? Meaning the same people? As I see it the forum is were we have all the "experts" as I see it, but I may be wrong.
Doug
From what I understand no, the SAAC is company owned by an individual or individuals (not sure on who). The Forum is owned and ran by a member of the SAAC from what I understand (My hat is off to them because they offer their time and their money I assume, to keep the site running). Regardless, the people that participate on the site are awesome as well as the registers. I'm sure the owner/owners of the SAAC are great too but I don't know them.
If you go back through the earlier posts on this thread most of these questions have been asked and answered. Just not by anyone who is on the board or has any official capacity. ~Kevin
Lack of attendance in the California conventions? Maybe the neighborhood has changed......Build the wall!
Quote from: roddster on August 14, 2018, 10:10:08 PM
Lack of attendance in the California conventions? Maybe the neighborhood has changed......Build the wall!
It has been the case for several decades that the attendance at the CA and for that matter western conventions (Utah, Oregon ) have had much lower attendance compared to the ones back east.
I'm sure if you stuck pins in a map the majority of members would be living in the north eastern 1/4 of the country - east of Ohio and north of New Jersey. The wide open spaces of the west are less dense population wise. Fly in participation is more likely for those east of the Rockies. Western ownership is probably concentrated in So and Mid CA where cars can be drug out and driven any day it strikes you. There are several track days a year so driving 400 miles from SoCal to SF to use Sears isn't much incentive.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on August 14, 2018, 11:18:56 PM
I'm sure if you stuck pins in a map the majority of members would be living in ..................
Would be interesting to see what a real membership map would look like currently.
Really interesting would be a comparison of that with Shelby ownership since its not only members that attend the conventions and individual number of owners has been dropping over the years.
I would like to know what the "numbers" of registered cars where in Sonoma, Indy and Mid Ohio. Maybe I was all star struck at each of the last three conventions but it sure felt like the numbers of cars attending were very similar between each venue. I might be way off.
I also remember everyone screamin and yellin about cars being parked on grass and dirt in Mid Ohio. At Sears Point and Indy we had sweet, sweet asphalt as far as the eye can see on which to park all those beautiful cars but attendance was lower at Sears Point.
Indy was cool due to the history of the race track but if felt like the convention was overwhelmed by the magnitude of the venue. Mid Ohio and Sears Point felt way more intimate.
Denbeste Motors and The Cobra Experience were amazing excursions at SAAC 43. The museum and history at Indy for SAAC 42 was unbelievable. Driving through the country and the winding roads to the track at Mid Ohio at SAAC was like heading to the Field of Dreams.
Of course the cars at each convention were incredible and the people I met were just fantastic.
My point is that there is always going to be great things, good things and some mediocre things about each convention. If the crowds at Sonoma were a little smaller than the last couple conventions I guess it is what it is. At lease the cars weren't parked in the dirt and grass.
I'm trying to be "cup half full guy".
QSS
I find this subject interesting. I've been a member of SAAC for 10 years and also a member of the Bay Area Tiger club for over 30 years and I see some similarities of issues that both clubs have and had.
For the poor attendance on the west coast part of that you can contribute being so close date wise to one of worlds largest car spectacles, the Monterey Historics and Pebble Beach. A lot of people schedule their vacation around that event and I think the SAAC convention was just a little too early in August, maybe if it was closer to the Monterey event people could have attended both.
I've attended 2 conventions on the west coast, every time I come away enjoying the cars, static or racing but as for learning something or trying to figure out what is what and who is who I am lost. Part of that is my failure not attending any of the outside events like the dinners and the tours, but at the track there is no promotion. No signage explaining where judging is taking place or explain the differences between years of the cars. That was one of similarities I find with car clubs, all the veterans know their way around the events and know the people. New members are then left out trying to figure out what the heck is going on and its gotta be worse with a national club. With these conventions it might be good time to ask people attending if they are new SAAC members, did they bring a car and where they came from. Maybe if they had a welcoming tent/location it might help or maybe they did and I didn't see it.
Another thing that I thought was weird was the promotional material, just a small booth selling a few items. I was hoping that there was items for sale with different years Only selling 1968 items I get because that was year the convention was celebrating, but nothing for the other years/cars. Bummer.
Somebody did say "did you check the SAAC website" which I did and everything is sold out. Almost looks like a going out business sale.While I was on the SAAC site I decided to check out any info about this years convention and the convention page just stated the event is completed. That is it? Maybe they will post pictures or winners of this past event.
These are just my observations and like getting my annuals and I've purchased all the registeries to help support the club and I'm looking for SAAC to staying around for many more years.
Terry
Would say that there was not allot of extra room for many additional cars and support vehicles at the most recent locations unless you wanted to park up on the hill in the gravel and walk down. It really isn't a large venue for this sort of event compared to some others. Beaver Run might be similar in size until you include the large grassy area outside of the main area Was asked by a fair number of people with rigs and cars who didn't show up till Saturday and by then most of the spaces are area had been called for except for some area at the far north end at the end of the grandstands between about 30-40 pieces of personal transportation and the driving school fence. Peoples choice show area was staked out on Thursday and by the show they were crammed in there fairly tight. Sure there were some fire marshal (access) rules being ignored there somewhere. ::)
As far as the running of the club is concerned I'll say this. I think I'm getting more than my money's worth with the quarterly Shelby American online, the annual print edition, the service of the Registrars, and the publicity and prestige that SAAC brings to our cars. Plus the opportunity to attend a convention each year if I choose. I'm a happy member.
If someone has suggestions for how to improve things, then by all means send them to SAAC HQ. I'm not against change for the better.
About the conventions. I believe there was a survey sometime in the last year or two that polled our members for input. The results were tabulated and made available. I know at one time there were some specific numbers given about where our members live and convention attendance in various parts of the country. As I recall, that information was quite detailed, and included some discussion of the finances involved in putting on these events. But I don't know if that was part of the poll results or presented at some other time. (BTW, I always wondered why we couldn't have a convention here in Texas. After reviewing that data I understood.) Maybe someone can find that survey info and post it here.
If someone has ideas on how to improve the conventions, please send them to SAAC HQ. I have no illusions about every idea being accepted. Many won't be practical for financial or other reasons. But if a hundred suggestions are submitted and three are implemented, that would still be worthwhile.
For what it's worth, I don't think the people in control of SAAC read this forum – or at least not very often. If you have a question or suggestion for them I suggest you email them directly. All their email addresses are on the SAAC.com site. But don't expect an immediate response from them during the month before or after a convention. They're pretty busy around that time.
And just so you'll know, I have no affiliation with SAAC management. I'm just a member like most of the others here on the forum. And like many of you, I sometimes feel compelled to share my thoughts with the group.
My 2 cents.
Steve
Quote from: SFM6S087 on August 15, 2018, 05:16:09 AM
As far as the running of the club is concerned I'll say this. I think I'm getting more than my money's worth with the quarterly Shelby American online, the annual print edition, the service of the Registrars, and the publicity and prestige that SAAC brings to our cars. Plus the opportunity to attend a convention each year if I choose. I'm a happy member.
If someone has suggestions for how to improve things, then by all means send them to SAAC HQ. I'm not against change for the better.
About the conventions. I believe there was a survey sometime in the last year or two that polled our members for input. The results were tabulated and made available. I know at one time there were some specific numbers given about where our members live and convention attendance in various parts of the country. As I recall, that information was quite detailed, and included some discussion of the finances involved in putting on these events. But I don't know if that was part of the poll results or presented at some other time. (BTW, I always wondered why we couldn't have a convention here in Texas. After reviewing that data I understood.) Maybe someone can find that survey info and post it here.
If someone has ideas on how to improve the conventions, please send them to SAAC HQ. I have no illusions about every idea being accepted. Many won't be practical for financial or other reasons. But if a hundred suggestions are submitted and three are implemented, that would still be worthwhile.
For what it's worth, I don't think the people in control of SAAC read this forum – or at least not very often. If you have a question or suggestion for them I suggest you email them directly. All their email addresses are on the SAAC.com site. But don't expect an immediate response from them during the month before or after a convention. They're pretty busy around that time.
And just so you'll know, I have no affiliation with SAAC management. I'm just a member like most of the others here on the forum. And like many of you, I sometimes feel compelled to share my thoughts with the group.
My 2 cents.
Steve
+ 1
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on August 14, 2018, 11:18:56 PM
I'm sure if you stuck pins in a map the majority of members would be living in the north eastern 1/4 of the country - east of Ohio and north of New Jersey. The wide open spaces of the west are less dense population wise. Fly in participation is more likely for those east of the Rockies. Western ownership is probably concentrated in So and Mid CA where cars can be drug out and driven any day it strikes you. There are several track days a year so driving 400 miles from SoCal to SF to use Sears isn't much incentive.
Really? So lets balance the power of 30 or 40 hard core western enthusiasts vs. hundreds if not thousands that drive on the east coast up to about 9 hours to get to the track?
It just boils down to out and out appeasement to the west. There is no other way to explain it.
Should I post pictures of the Dearborn conventions again? That was a 14 hour tow for me.
So in LA, you don't want to get out of your pool? Common'. This is all just BS.
Quote from: Terry Curry on August 15, 2018, 02:54:59 AM
I find this subject interesting.
Another thing that I thought was weird was the promotional material, just a small booth selling a few items. I was hoping that there was items for sale with different years Only selling 1968 items I get because that was year the convention was celebrating, but nothing for the other years/cars. Bummer.
Somebody did say "did you check the SAAC website" which I did and everything is sold out. Almost looks like a going out business sale.While I was on the SAAC site I decided to check out any info about this years convention and the convention page just stated the event is completed. That is it? Maybe they will post pictures or winners of this past event.
These are just my observations and like getting my annuals and I've purchased all the registeries to help support the club and I'm looking for SAAC to staying around for many more years.
Terry
Thnx for coming into the Forum Terry
This is exactly why the Forum needs to be perfect....
Because a great deal of Q/A and enthusiasm and energy used to be here.
The grape is dying on the vine.....
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 14, 2018, 10:22:19 PM
Quote from: roddster on August 14, 2018, 10:10:08 PM
Lack of attendance in the California conventions? Maybe the neighborhood has changed......Build the wall!
It has been the case for several decades that the attendance at the CA and for that matter western conventions (Utah, Oregon ) have had much lower attendance compared to the ones back east.
Eggzactly
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 15, 2018, 07:26:01 AM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on August 14, 2018, 11:18:56 PM
I'm sure if you stuck pins in a map the majority of members would be living in the north eastern 1/4 of the country - east of Ohio and north of New Jersey. The wide open spaces of the west are less dense population wise. Fly in participation is more likely for those east of the Rockies. Western ownership is probably concentrated in So and Mid CA where cars can be drug out and driven any day it strikes you. There are several track days a year so driving 400 miles from SoCal to SF to use Sears isn't much incentive.
Really? So lets balance the power of 30 or 40 hard core western enthusiasts vs. hundreds if not thousands that drive on the east coast up to about 9 hours to get to the track?
It just boils down to out and out appeasement to the west. There is no other way to explain it.
Should I post pictures of the Dearborn conventions again? That was a 14 hour tow for me.
So in LA, you don't want to get out of your pool? Common'. This is all just BS.
I think if you go back in time one of the original goals was to let people run their cars on all the famous and/or big tracks all over the country. The west had a unique place as that is where all the creation/manufacturing/testing of CS cars started. I'm sure there are far more than 30-40 SAAC members in the west - but the national convention may not be a big draw because there is so much other stuff to do with your car. Most people are no longer willing to make the long drive/tow. 14 hours I consider a non event. 43 would have been a 9 hour drive for us from the LA area. We drove the the Mid-Ohio and Dearborn conventions but flew to CT. It compounds the problem since more people don't bring their cars there is less to see so some people may decide to stay home which means less cars less people so then next time it rolls around people remember less cars/people so they decide to stay home. The conventions for us has become a time to visit old friends we have met/known since SAAC 1. It has become not really about the cars for us (especially since so many are now the same because 100% original is desired - we've lost the WOW look at that day 2 mod). We went to Indy last year - no car as we pulled our travel trailer but Indy was on the bucket list - did have fun with the parade laps. How long before there will no longer be a need to rent a track? Fewer and fewer people are not willing to risk a major portion of their retirement fund on the track and who cares about seeing a bunch of late model Mustangs making muffled laps? I'm certain the board will pull the plug on the west when it no longer makes sense to hold a convention here. Their ultimate decision has to be about bringing a convention to each of their membership centers that has a cost effective venue.
DEFEND what you want.
SAAC has always been a coalition. It has varied some over the years but for the most part has been consistent enough to make the formula effective. The formula for determining convention locations hasn't changed and is unlikely to in the near future. Other factors have entered into the decision though that weren't necessarily there before.
The Dearborn conventions are unarguably the largest. The first two didn't have tracks. Ford's Utica test track was "volunteered". One time because Shelby was getting us Dodge's and the powers that be at Ford "wouldn't allow that.
Track availability and AFFORDABILITY for the last 30 years no doubt are our Nemesis?
Yes. Values have changed usages of the cars and will continue to do so.
If you are happy with what is, that's great. I would think that it isn't going to get better or change and probably it isn't even possible to make it any better? The question is, is what IS deteriorating or is it just our perspective or even EXPECTATIONS changed? Does it "depend on what the definition of is, is?" ;)
I said 30 to 40 HARD CORE enthusiasts. Ones that will be there hell or high water. Sure there are others that show up occasionally. Just like dandelion seeds blowing in the wind. So that depends on which direction the wind carries them or whether the fires burn them up or maybe the whale sightings are up? That's fine. Butterflies are free, but the cause of west coast conventions was and is just a demanding of equal time.
There is NO question that the Mini Nats are more important. That is probably the largest factor in the uncertain turn outs to west coast SAAC Conventions.
As far as making suggestions of great ideas, fine, do you volunteer your time and efforts to accomplish that? The staff is a little short handed you know?
There are a lot of interesting perspectives gleaned from this topic.
I think the common theme is that everyone supports the SAAC and some have a greater concern because they don't want to see the membership dwindle away and then it becomes a "Remember SAAC #10 or 2 or 40 those were the good ole days" conversation.
The value of the cars has and will effect the SAAC just like any other antique. As pretty much all restored cars are essentially the same (not criticizing) the "WOW" factor of a day 2 car is gone. That is why unrestored cars are so hot because they are different and you see what you bought, whiskey dents and all.
The demographics, not necessarily the people have changed. At SAAC 1-20 I'm sure everyone was bright eyed and had a great time and were essentially new Shelby owners in their 20's and 30's. Now a lot of those first attenders have owned a Shelby for 30-40 years and although loved, the honeymoon is over and your in a long term relationship :). At 70-80 years old I doubt many are going to drive 8-14hours to an event in their car or even interested in towing it like they did when they were 30.
I say all this to say that the SAAC will evolve because it has too either willingly or not and in the end it will be okay. I do believe everyone should drive their car and enjoy it while letting your mind flood with memories of your youth. The grim reaper comes soon enough to us all and the cars will far outlast you and I and many of them will end up in the hands of flippers and will be traded like baseball cards on the auction playground.
So what do you do, drive it and hurt the value by $50K, yes who cares, the good LORD has loaned it to you for a little while anyway and I promise you aren't going to care in the end.
In the wake of SAAC 43 this discussion has shifted to convention related issues, which is certainly a part of what SAAC does, but not the only thing. SAAC is instrumental (indispensable?) in maintaining the integrity of the original 62-70 Shelby automobiles through the registries and registrars as well as facilitating conversation among the members - primarily through this forum. I want that to continue. To do that SAAC needs to be financially viable.
If you go to the SAAC Memberlodge About page (http://saac.memberlodge.com/page-258803), which was written in 2009 you'll read this:
"The Shelby American Automobile Club was founded in 1975. It presently has approximately 4,000 members in the U.S. and another 500 around the rest of the world.When it comes to Cobras and Shelby Mustangs, if we don't know it, it's probably not worth knowing, While SAAC has continually evolved over the past 34 years, its basic reason for existence has not changed since that very first day. The club is dedicated to the preservation, care, history and enjoyment of the World Championship Cars built or inspired by Shelby American."
If you are a member and go to the Members Directory you'll see that the current membership is about half what it was 9 years ago (assuming the directory web function is correct). Registered users on this forum is only about half of that. That's not a lot of financial support for a national club that's been around since 1975. When you consider the cost of publishing the annuals, there can't be much left.
We all have a vested interest in keeping SAAC viable and I hope we can work with the "powers that be" to make that happen. It sure would be nice if one or more of them would chime in...
Quote from: SFM6S087 on August 15, 2018, 05:16:09 AM
As far as the running of the club is concerned I'll say this. I think I'm getting more than my money's worth with the quarterly Shelby American online, the annual print edition, the service of the Registrars, and the publicity and prestige that SAAC brings to our cars. Plus the opportunity to attend a convention each year if I choose. I'm a happy member.
If someone has suggestions for how to improve things, then by all means send them to SAAC HQ. I'm not against change for the better.
About the conventions. I believe there was a survey sometime in the last year or two that polled our members for input. The results were tabulated and made available. I know at one time there were some specific numbers given about where our members live and convention attendance in various parts of the country. As I recall, that information was quite detailed, and included some discussion of the finances involved in putting on these events. But I don't know if that was part of the poll results or presented at some other time. (BTW, I always wondered why we couldn't have a convention here in Texas. After reviewing that data I understood.) Maybe someone can find that survey info and post it here.
If someone has ideas on how to improve the conventions, please send them to SAAC HQ. I have no illusions about every idea being accepted. Many won't be practical for financial or other reasons. But if a hundred suggestions are submitted and three are implemented, that would still be worthwhile.
For what it's worth, I don't think the people in control of SAAC read this forum – or at least not very often. If you have a question or suggestion for them I suggest you email them directly. All their email addresses are on the SAAC.com site. But don't expect an immediate response from them during the month before or after a convention. They're pretty busy around that time.
And just so you'll know, I have no affiliation with SAAC management. I'm just a member like most of the others here on the forum. And like many of you, I sometimes feel compelled to share my thoughts with the group.
My 2 cents.
Steve
I completely agree. I think all this talk can be contributed to the society we live in now. A lot of people in this country are un happy with everything, nothing is fare! Well then go start your own club and quit bitching!!!!!!!!!
+1 kjspeed and chad !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regarding one point made earlier.....
I can promise you that when I bring my car,...no mufflers.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on August 15, 2018, 11:59:06 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 15, 2018, 07:26:01 AM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on August 14, 2018, 11:18:56 PM
I'm sure if you stuck pins in a map the majority of members would be living in the north eastern 1/4 of the country - east of Ohio and north of New Jersey. The wide open spaces of the west are less dense population wise. Fly in participation is more likely for those east of the Rockies. Western ownership is probably concentrated in So and Mid CA where cars can be drug out and driven any day it strikes you. There are several track days a year so driving 400 miles from SoCal to SF to use Sears isn't much incentive.
Really? So lets balance the power of 30 or 40 hard core western enthusiasts vs. hundreds if not thousands that drive on the east coast up to about 9 hours to get to the track?
It just boils down to out and out appeasement to the west. There is no other way to explain it.
Should I post pictures of the Dearborn conventions again? That was a 14 hour tow for me.
So in LA, you don't want to get out of your pool? Common'. This is all just BS.
I think if you go back in time one of the original goals was to let people run their cars on all the famous and/or big tracks all over the country. The west had a unique place as that is where all the creation/manufacturing/testing of CS cars started. I'm sure there are far more than 30-40 SAAC members in the west - but the national convention may not be a big draw because there is so much other stuff to do with your car. Most people are no longer willing to make the long drive/tow. 14 hours I consider a non event. 43 would have been a 9 hour drive for us from the LA area. We drove the the Mid-Ohio and Dearborn conventions but flew to CT. It compounds the problem since more people don't bring their cars there is less to see so some people may decide to stay home which means less cars less people so then next time it rolls around people remember less cars/people so they decide to stay home. The conventions for us has become a time to visit old friends we have met/known since SAAC 1. It has become not really about the cars for us (especially since so many are now the same because 100% original is desired - we've lost the WOW look at that day 2 mod). We went to Indy last year - no car as we pulled our travel trailer but Indy was on the bucket list - did have fun with the parade laps. How long before there will no longer be a need to rent a track? Fewer and fewer people are not willing to risk a major portion of their retirement fund on the track and who cares about seeing a bunch of late model Mustangs making muffled laps? I'm certain the board will pull the plug on the west when it no longer makes sense to hold a convention here. Their ultimate decision has to be about bringing a convention to each of their membership centers that has a cost effective venue.
I thought about how and why we are in the predicament we are in and couldn't find the right way to say it. SVT and I seem to have the same beliefs on this matter. How it began and why there was an excitement is in his statement above. Day 2 mods, racing cars, great friends, new locations, NO boring sales pitches from people that understand very little about having a passion for special vintage performance cars. If we wanted a new car we would just head on down to a local dealer and pick something up- pretty boring and we don't need conventions to discuss REGULAR CARS that's what we don't need from them. When you hire MGRS that are good bean counters they are just that, GOOD BEAN COUNTERS and should not be allowed to mix with the vintage crowd. Now for SO CAL that is where it all began, for good reason things happen there first because of population, weather, free flowing ideas etc, It was that way in the beginning and continues to be that way now. There are MORE performance cars and people that love COBRAS, SHELBYS, TIGERS, PANTERAS, BOSS' you name it then anywhere else in the world. When things seem broken and no one fixes them they find other things to do. Just one guys observation about these cars and people from the 1970s :-\
Times have changed and yes everyone is older , 10 years ago the forum did not exist. this was a change for the better . allows more info to be shared and compared , multiple discussions that lead to more accurate reporting of the history have come from it . But in the beginning the conversation was we don't need it . The club was / Is better for this change .
The unfortunate loss of all the info from those 10 years is disappointing.
MANY of the current club member have invested Time and effort and funds to support the "Club" . It is the behind the scene investment by The registrars and their families for the last 40 years should have some bearing on what happens going forward . Out of respect for them !
The Powers that be have enthusiasm about a 1/4 inch deep now .
They have Put together A Great assembly of people ( members) who have vast tracks of enthusiasm for the brand and the club.
The lawsuit soured many .... but it also brought out many longtime members .
If we had a nickel for every time the "Go start your own club" conversation had come up .
Dividing the club members would be a loss on both sides and not productive for either side .
I'm really not a fan of the last one out turn off the lights version of the clubs exit plan.
The Titanic captain was not to be swayed either . full steam ahead we wont need those reports .
The whole "Go start your own club" mentality is quite frankly part of the problem. That is the reaction of a child, "I'll take my ball and go home if you don't like it and you can find a new ball" and is disrespectful to all that try and make the SAAC even better. No one that I have spoken to or read comments from suggested or is planning on leaving the SAAC to form another group. The biggest grip I have heard is that the membership wants to hear from the leadership because it rallies enthusiasm.
ASK NOT WHAT YOUR CLUB CAN DO FOR YOU , ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR CLUB. Volunteering your talents toward making it better instead of typing on the computer may actually produce the results you are looking for. Many voices outnumber a few. Give your opinions to the owner , not the minions.
Quote from: gt350hr on August 16, 2018, 02:37:44 PM
ASK NOT WHAT YOUR CLUB CAN DO FOR YOU , ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR CLUB. Volunteering your talents toward making it better instead of typing on the computer may actually produce the results you are looking for. Many voices outnumber a few. Give your opinions to the owner , not the minions.
++1....
Randy, I think people would if there was a way to do it and they knew who to ask? Do you know how, who and what the SAAC leadership needs in terms of help at the moment? As the SAAC is someones business and not a club so to speak, I don't think the owner wants Joe Blow hitting them up without asking. JMO
If a club isn't growing, it's dying.
You need an infusion of new blood to keep things healthy. Let's be frank, not a lot of young enthusiasts will be able to buy a 50 year old 6 figure pony car. But a lot of them are entering the fray with second ownership of the '07-'18 models. I suggest reaching out to this group is the easiest way to grow the club as a whole and improve the odds that the originals will be cared for by enthusiasts.
Probably help attendance too.
Quote from: gt350hr on August 16, 2018, 02:37:44 PM
ASK NOT WHAT YOUR CLUB CAN DO FOR YOU , ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR CLUB. Volunteering your talents toward making it better instead of typing on the computer may actually produce the results you are looking for. Many voices outnumber a few. Give your opinions to the owner , not the minions.
+1 see what you can do to help SAAC get better
x 10- Someone has to acknowledge there is a problem before help can be forthcoming. :-[
Quote from: Chad on August 16, 2018, 11:05:40 AM
Quote from: SFM6S087 on August 15, 2018, 05:16:09 AM
As far as the running of the club is concerned I'll say this. I think I'm getting more than my money's worth with the quarterly Shelby American online, the annual print edition, the service of the Registrars, and the publicity and prestige that SAAC brings to our cars. Plus the opportunity to attend a convention each year if I choose. I'm a happy member.
If someone has suggestions for how to improve things, then by all means send them to SAAC HQ. I'm not against change for the better.
About the conventions. I believe there was a survey sometime in the last year or two that polled our members for input. The results were tabulated and made available. I know at one time there were some specific numbers given about where our members live and convention attendance in various parts of the country. As I recall, that information was quite detailed, and included some discussion of the finances involved in putting on these events. But I don't know if that was part of the poll results or presented at some other time. (BTW, I always wondered why we couldn't have a convention here in Texas. After reviewing that data I understood.) Maybe someone can find that survey info and post it here.
If someone has ideas on how to improve the conventions, please send them to SAAC HQ. I have no illusions about every idea being accepted. Many won't be practical for financial or other reasons. But if a hundred suggestions are submitted and three are implemented, that would still be worthwhile.
For what it's worth, I don't think the people in control of SAAC read this forum – or at least not very often. If you have a question or suggestion for them I suggest you email them directly. All their email addresses are on the SAAC.com site. But don't expect an immediate response from them during the month before or after a convention. They're pretty busy around that time.
And just so you'll know, I have no affiliation with SAAC management. I'm just a member like most of the others here on the forum. And like many of you, I sometimes feel compelled to share my thoughts with the group.
My 2 cents.
Steve
I completely agree. I think all this talk can be contributed to the society we live in now. A lot of people in this country are un happy with everything, nothing is fare! Well then go start your own club and quit bitching!!!!!!!!!
Right on Chad...not that the bitchers are gonna change... :o
If you don't like the direction(or lack of) the club is heading then leave.
Quote from: 2112 on August 16, 2018, 04:31:03 PM
If a club isn't growing, it's dying. You need an infusion of new blood to keep things healthy......... '07-'18 models. I suggest reaching out to this group ..
There is a finite number of cars - today many people own 2 or more cars. Some collections have 10-30 cars. When a guy owns 20 cars he only buys one membership. In fact some of the big assorted collections may not even have memberships in marque specific clubs for the cars they own. - this is why membership numbers are down. I'd wager 90%+ of owners of early cars do belong to SAAC.
Sure - ask the new owners to join. What does SAAC offer those 100,000+ owners? A great magazine on the development of their cars? Nope. A recap of the drivers and race history of their cars? Nope. Tech tips on how to make their car concours correct just the way it rolled off the assembly line (last week)? Nope. A group of dedicated registrars keeping track of 10 times as many cars as CS built in the 60s? Nope. Even CS isn't sharing their registry because then you'd realize your new Shelby never has a chance of being rare and collectible for at least the next 50 years. Sure some owners of early cars also own new ones but that is a very few cars out of the pool of new cars. Also which car do you target? Ford/SVT built GT350 & GT500? Shelby manufactured Shelbys? Current Mustangs that are modified post title by CS? Then do you do the ones done in Vegas or those done by licensed installers in other parts of the country? Are you going to include "Cobra" Mustangs? CS had as much to do with those as he did with the 2005 GT500.
Team Shelby exists to cater to owners of new cars with SAAC type benefits. If you own a new car are you going to the club created to support your new car or one that focuses on one that is 50 years old and shares nothing in common except a name?
LOL!
You seem have forgotten all these cars are of one make; Ford. The highest performing Fords. Yeah, if you are lucky, you will attract 3-4% of that 100,000 pool of modern performance Ford owners because you are correct, most of them don't care about 50 y/o cars.
You're absolutely right, you have very little to offer them...except heritage. The real point is what they have to offer to you. Namely youthful eagerness to get involved & learn about the history and the cars.
That is more likely to keep them on the road rather than being investment tools.
In closing; Get off my lawn!
Quote from: Chris Thauberger on August 16, 2018, 07:03:13 PM
Quote from: Chad on August 16, 2018, 11:05:40 AM
Quote from: SFM6S087 on August 15, 2018, 05:16:09 AM
As far as the running of the club is concerned I'll say this. I think I'm getting more than my money's worth with the quarterly Shelby American online, the annual print edition, the service of the Registrars, and the publicity and prestige that SAAC brings to our cars. Plus the opportunity to attend a convention each year if I choose. I'm a happy member.
If someone has suggestions for how to improve things, then by all means send them to SAAC HQ. I'm not against change for the better.
About the conventions. I believe there was a survey sometime in the last year or two that polled our members for input. The results were tabulated and made available. I know at one time there were some specific numbers given about where our members live and convention attendance in various parts of the country. As I recall, that information was quite detailed, and included some discussion of the finances involved in putting on these events. But I don't know if that was part of the poll results or presented at some other time. (BTW, I always wondered why we couldn't have a convention here in Texas. After reviewing that data I understood.) Maybe someone can find that survey info and post it here.
If someone has ideas on how to improve the conventions, please send them to SAAC HQ. I have no illusions about every idea being accepted. Many won't be practical for financial or other reasons. But if a hundred suggestions are submitted and three are implemented, that would still be worthwhile.
For what it's worth, I don't think the people in control of SAAC read this forum – or at least not very often. If you have a question or suggestion for them I suggest you email them directly. All their email addresses are on the SAAC.com site. But don't expect an immediate response from them during the month before or after a convention. They're pretty busy around that time.
And just so you'll know, I have no affiliation with SAAC management. I'm just a member like most of the others here on the forum. And like many of you, I sometimes feel compelled to share my thoughts with the group.
My 2 cents.
Steve
I completely agree. I think all this talk can be contributed to the society we live in now. A lot of people in this country are un happy with everything, nothing is fare! Well then go start your own club and quit bitching!!!!!!!!!
Right on Chad...not that the bitchers are gonna change... :o
If you don't like the direction(or lack of) the club is heading then leave.
Chris- Heres the real problem... Most of the fan base has left the bldg., after the nonsense that took place on 1.0 and the crash of the forum most left never to return. Many continue to leave for various reasons with seemingly so many on the fence we don't need to push any more over because many will leave with just a gentle breeze. I am one of those that enjoy all Marques and the passion and effort that goes into these cars. When I show up at a Corvette or Porsche gathering we all have our opinions of what we like, and enjoy the commeraderie with each other and all that the event has to offer. NO ONE says if you dont like the venue leave... Only here does this keep raising its ugly head. Those of us left are the backbone of the group lets not run any more people off!
+1 to that.
I would note that there is a difference between someone participating for free on this forum and an actual dues paying member of SAAC. ;)
One is supporting SAAC the other is not.
So can we draw a conclusion similar to people that donate tens of thousands of dollars to their place of worship to those that don't give regular tithings... Those that cant or don't should be cast out and not allowed to participate? :-[
Quote from: 427heaven on August 17, 2018, 11:42:38 AM
So can we draw a conclusion similar to people that donate tens of thousands of dollars to their place of worship to those that don't give regular tithings... Those that cant or don't should be cast out and not allowed to participate? :-[
I guess I'm not understanding your references as worshiping GOD vs. SAAC membership are manna and peanuts. GOD loves all and whosoever will can come, man and some in the SAAC, Porsche, Chevy and your neighbors and family do not ;).
Some get a warm fuzzy feeling making donations...others don't. Some have a need for membership badges to feel like they belong, others not so much. Just an analogy... Could have used the donkey one instead, trying to help the fans up the ladder not trying to kick the ladder out from under anyone.
Pull the religion card please.
Instant public withdrawal..... The analogy was the making a donation for a cause... ( CARD) nothing to do with religion- Apologies up front for any mis interpretations of my analogy. All are welcome if you donate or not might be beneficial for the group. Now back to the discussion of the groups how to make things better, do we not have anyone deemed the spokesperson for SAAC?
Now all we need is the political card thrown... SAAC issues are all Trumps fault and a conspiracy with the Russians ... ha, ha....
NOT!
Quote from: 427heaven on August 17, 2018, 10:43:59 AM
Chris- Heres the real problem... Most of the fan base has left the bldg., after the nonsense that took place on 1.0 and the crash of the forum most left never to return. Many continue to leave for various reasons with seemingly so many on the fence we don't need to push any more over because many will leave with just a gentle breeze. I am one of those that enjoy all Marques and the passion and effort that goes into these cars. When I show up at a Corvette or Porsche gathering we all have our opinions of what we like, and enjoy the commeraderie with each other and all that the event has to offer. NO ONE says if you dont like the venue leave... Only here does this keep raising its ugly head. Those of us left are the backbone of the group lets not run any more people off!
Great summary.
+3
Quote from: 427heaven on August 17, 2018, 02:28:49 PM
Instant public withdrawal..... The analogy was the making a donation for a cause... ( CARD) nothing to do with religion- Apologies up front for any mis interpretations of my analogy. All are welcome if you donate or not might be beneficial for the group. Now back to the discussion of the groups how to make things better, do we not have anyone deemed the spokesperson for SAAC?
Apparently not but if they are looking for someone, based on their interest in the matter, Chris would be a shoe in.
Quote from: Chris Thauberger on August 16, 2018, 07:03:13 PM
Right on Chad...not that the bitchers are gonna change... :o
If you don't like the direction(or lack of) the club is heading then leave.
Dedicated to the care, preservation, history and enjoyment of the world championship cars from Shelby American, and the cars they have inspired from 1962 to today, Ownership is not required for membership - just enthusiasm.I see a lot more enthusiasts here than 'bitchers'.
I am wondering....how many participants in this thread have read the most recent 'The Shelby American" Spring 2018 magazine?? If you haven't, why ??? Are you a dues paying member of SAAC or just a SAAC Forum participant ?? Up to this point, no one has quoted or referenced this thoughtful article.
The first article in 'The Mail SAAC' is germane to this thread's topic. Pages 1-5 of the magazine. The Op Ed piece is entitled 'Food for Thought'. Although it does not answer many of the questions asked here, it does indicate at least Rick is aware of the need for a plan for the organizations future. Although Rick is not any longer the official spokesman of the club, his bully pulpit is the magazine. I believe this article was written to provide food for thought to the leadership of the club as well as the membership.
I sincerely hope each participant in this discussion will take the time to read this now....not wait until the magazine comes out next year in printed form...........time is not on our side.
Quote from: TA22 (Gary Goeringer) on August 17, 2018, 04:08:12 PM
I am wondering....how many participants in this thread have read the most recent 'The Shelby American" Spring 2018 magazine?? If you haven't, why ??? Are you a dues paying member of SAAC or just a SAAC Forum participant ?? Up to this point, no one has quoted or referenced this thoughtful article.
The first article in 'The Mail SAAC' is germane to this thread's topic. Pages 1-5 of the magazine. The Op Ed piece is entitled 'Food for Thought'. Although it does not answer many of the questions asked here, it does indicate at least Rick is aware of the need for a plan for the organizations future. Although Rick is not any longer the official spokesman of the club, his bully pulpit is the magazine. I believe this article was written to provide food for thought to the leadership of the club as well as the membership.
I sincerely hope each participant in this discussion will take the time to read this now....not wait until the magazine comes out next year in printed form...........time is not on our side.
Mr. G. + 1
+1
It is my understanding we will be getting some official word from the leadership shortly. Stay tuned.
Quote from: TA22 (Gary Goeringer) on August 17, 2018, 04:08:12 PM
Although Rick is not any longer the official spokesman of the club, his bully pulpit is the magazine.
Sounds like a resignation to me? So now there is no spokesman? Interesting but it does explain a lot of the lack of reaction from "Club Headquarters", wherever that is now? ;)
shelbydoug.......not sure how you translated that out of context statement as a resignation....but Rick has been acting only as Editor of The Shelby American for many years...why are you 'crying wolf' as to no 'official spokesperson' now? Nothing has changed---seems you like to 'stir the pot'.
Wouldn't be the first time, Gary. I was thinking about inviting him onto the flight deck so he can tell me how to fly the 737-800 based on someone else's experience.
As for leadership: The absence thereof creates chaos.
It would be nice to have a game plan and who has what AOR. ( Area of responsibility) The tragic loss of information here due to it not being backed up has left many wanting.
-Keith
Silence says different things to different people. We as aimless sheep,minions,peanut gallery or any other designations we have been given are just looking for a little S O P ( standard operating procedure)we like to know which direction the ships headed and whos steering. Looking around and seeing more SHELBY related vehicles at our local cars and caffeine then a major show speaks volumes. The cars are still there just people don't want to bring them out, maybe a Q-A session asking what we would like to see?
Keith, I understand and have recently reviewed many of his previous posts (on many topics).
I also understand the lack of information (and leadership) creates chaos. And I regret the system and the information it contained is gone. But this Forum is not the center of the universe (although it seems it may be for some). All this hand wringing and 'whoa is me' is not going to change it.
The Forum is an adjunct to SAAC. It is not SAAC. It never will be. The core of this organization are the cars and the history that surrounds them. Not the Forum. Period.
If we could refocus our collective angst to that core (buy and read all three Registrys, for example), a significant portion of the topics discussed on the forum would disappear.
Quote from: TA22 (Gary Goeringer) on August 18, 2018, 09:39:58 AM
shelbydoug.......not sure how you translated that out of context statement as a resignation....but Rick has been acting only as Editor of The Shelby American for many years...why are you 'crying wolf' as to no 'official spokesperson' now? Nothing has changed---seems you like to 'stir the pot'.
Stirring the pot gets results. Sitting around and sulking gets nothing. Kopec's absence here is very apparent. That's not my doing.
In fairness, it isn't just him, it's other "officials" as well. This place has become a ghost town. Personal discussions about "I don't care" fit into your statement.
You made it. I didn't. If I misinterpreted what you meant, then me bad, but it fits into what others close to the club are saying privately as well.
We also have a Board of Directors in abstencia as well.
IF I wanted to be negative and destructive, I'd make a statement like "everyone got what they wanted and left", but I'm not saying that, just that the echo here is disturbing.
shelbydoug......your influence is over estimated.
Kopec has nothing to be ashamed of, nor should he have to participate in this thread.
Your conclusions are reserved only for you.
The Forum is not SAAC.
Quote from: TA22 (Gary Goeringer) on August 18, 2018, 11:10:26 AM
shelbydoug......your influence is over estimated.
Kopec has nothing to be ashamed of, nor should he have to participate in this thread.
Your conclusions are reserved only for you.
The Forum is not SAAC.
I have no influence. Never did. Who said he should be ashamed? I didn't. Don't put words in my mouth. If you want to pick it, pick it with someone else, not me. I not interested.
He is definitely the creator of SAAC. I think of him kindly, and as a Dr. Frankenstein of sorts.
He created something that can at times be a sort of a monster, out of his control and with a mind of its own. More then any ONE person, he brought Shelby back from the dead. Power of the pen.
Of course my opinions are mine and that IS what they are, my opinions. You have yours. Good for you. ;)
Quote from: TA22 (Gary Goeringer) on August 18, 2018, 11:10:26 AM
shelbydoug......your influence is over estimated.
Kopec has nothing to be ashamed of, nor should he have to participate in this thread.
Your conclusions are reserved only for you.
The Forum is not SAAC.
Maybe leadership can tell us what the forum is?
Anxiously awaiting some official word.
If the forum is not SAAC, maybe it should be as it plays an important role in the club.
Just curious, if the Forum is not SAAC why is it called the SAAC Forum?
The Forum is an adjunct to SAAC. It is not SAAC. It is a tool--in the broad history of SAAC, a recently devised tool. The core of SAAC are the cars and the history that surrounds them.
shelbydoug......sorry if you got you feelings hurt and thought I was picking on you. Seems to me you will carry on with your opinions and comments regardless.
Quote from: TA22 (Gary Goeringer) on August 17, 2018, 04:08:12 PM
I am wondering....how many participants in this thread have read the most recent 'The Shelby American" Spring 2018 magazine?? If you haven't, why ??? Are you a dues paying member of SAAC or just a SAAC Forum participant ?? Up to this point, no one has quoted or referenced this thoughtful article.
The first article in 'The Mail SAAC' is germane to this thread's topic. Pages 1-5 of the magazine. The Op Ed piece is entitled 'Food for Thought'. Although it does not answer many of the questions asked here, it does indicate at least Rick is aware of the need for a plan for the organizations future. Although Rick is not any longer the official spokesman of the club, his bully pulpit is the magazine. I believe this article was written to provide food for thought to the leadership of the club as well as the membership.
I sincerely hope each participant in this discussion will take the time to read this now....not wait until the magazine comes out next year in printed form...........time is not on our side.
Maybe the cover photo says more than the editorial? Welcome to the "club."
Quote from: TA22 (Gary Goeringer) on August 18, 2018, 11:46:52 AM
shelbydoug......sorry if you got you feelings hurt and thought I was picking on you. Seems to me you will carry on with your opinions and comments regardless.
Me? Opinionated? Opinions of fact from being a fly on the wall? Hum? ;)
shelbydoug....I am sure this statement will ring true for you. "A fact is a statement that can be proven true or false. An opinion is an expression of a person's feelings that cannot be proven. Opinions can be based on facts or emotions and sometimes they are meant to deliberately mislead others. Therefore, it is important to be aware of the author's purpose and choice of language."
for reference: https://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/lrc/studyskills/factsandopinions.pdf
Okay Doug......Your turn ::)
Quote from: 69mach351w on August 18, 2018, 12:35:37 PM
Okay Doug......Your turn ::)
Sorry...I fell asleep! What did I miss? :o
A LOT!! You better catch up :o
Oh dam! I hate when that happens! Just one little nap and the entire world passes by without even a note! Gee-se! ::)
Thanks to all for posting thoughts and opinions. We chose to let this thread run it's course to see how the discussion evolved.
It did not go unnoticed.. it did not go unread.
...and it is quite in sync with current discussions at SAAC HQ.
I will address many of the questions brought up here in another thread.. to provide some answers and pursue many of the suggestions here.
..really pleased to see a strong level of support and a desire to make the club sustain and improve.
We've taken notes and have a full list of things to answer and discuss...
Ron
SAAC HQ
Great news!
Let's hope the discussions here and at HQ are the catalyst to get the club improving, growing and moving forward.
...and the Prophet said "boom! and the Phoenix shall rise from the flames!" So like, what da' ya hear? I see a change of address. Where exactly is club headquarters these days? Inquiring minds want to know? 8)
.....he said in a whisper so the petals won't fall off of the flower! ;)
Doug- The flower is beginning to bloom,dont stomp on it! :) THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING... WE ALL WANT POSITIVE RESULTS!!!
Quote from: computerworks on August 18, 2018, 02:31:54 PM
Thanks to all for posting thoughts and opinions. We chose to let this thread run it's course to see how the discussion evolved.
It did not go unnoticed.. it did not go unread.
...and it is quite in sync with current discussions at SAAC HQ.
I will address many of the questions brought up here in another thread.. to provide some answers and pursue many of the suggestions here.
..really pleased to see a strong level of support and a desire to make the club sustain and improve.
We've taken notes and have a full list of things to answer and discuss...
Ron
SAAC HQ
Ron, thank you for responding! As you have read, most of the people are in support of the SAAC and want to be part of the movement. I am excited to hear that there will a statement about the direction.
Thanks Ron. There is lots of dedication and support for a great SAAC future. Feeling positive about things :D
Quote from: 427heaven on August 18, 2018, 04:03:05 PM
Doug- The flower is beginning to bloom,dont stomp on it! :) THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING... WE ALL WANT POSITIVE RESULTS!!!
Flower power! That was the title to the song that Dick Shawn sang for his audition in "The Producers".
YEA BABY! ooo....shush, quiet... :o
Thanks Ron, that is encouraging news!
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 18, 2018, 03:02:20 PM
Where exactly is club headquarters these days? Inquiring minds want to know? 8)
SAAC HQ is no longer in just one location since about 2009.
The Board of Directors consists of the following:
The Membership Office (Jay Talbott) is in Lexington, KY. Curt Vogt, Howard Pardee and Rick Kopec (Director Emeritus) are located in CT. Ron Richards is in New York, Dirk Gasterland is in Wisconsin, and Jim Dolan is in Naples, Fl.
Our Registrars are located in CA, CT, FL, NV and NJ
Because SAAC administration has grown beyond just two or three people, SAAC HQ is a virtual office located in many places, manned by hard working volunteers who have put SAAC ahead of their personal and business lives. Because of these hard working people, SAAC is continuing to operate in an ever-changing world. We are addressing the challenges mentioned in some of these threads, and will be communicating our direction soon, as Ron has indicated.
Regards,
Jay
Thank you Ron and Jay and all volunteers!
Jon
Many thanks for the initial responses. I look forward to hearing what is in store for SAAC!!
Ruben
Thank's Jay, we are looking forward to hearing from you.
QuoteBecause SAAC administration has grown beyond just two or three people, SAAC HQ is a virtual office located in many places, manned by hard working volunteers who have put SAAC ahead of their personal and business lives. Because of these hard working people, SAAC is continuing to operate in an ever-changing world. We are addressing the challenges mentioned in some of these threads, and will be communicating our direction soon, as Ron has indicated.
Regards,
Thanks to one and all :)
TOB
Quote from: 427heaven on August 16, 2018, 06:29:42 PM
x 10- Someone has to acknowledge there is a problem before help can be forthcoming. :-[
Wurd
Quote from: JayTalbott on August 18, 2018, 08:27:37 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 18, 2018, 03:02:20 PM
Where exactly is club headquarters these days? Inquiring minds want to know? 8)
SAAC HQ is no longer in just one location since about 2009.
The Board of Directors consists of the following:
The Membership Office (Jay Talbott) is in Lexington, KY. Curt Vogt, Howard Pardee and Rick Kopec (Director Emeritus) are located in CT. Ron Richards is in New York, Dirk Gasterland is in Wisconsin, and Jim Dolan is in Naples, Fl.
Our Registrars are located in CA, CT, FL, NV and NJ
Because SAAC administration has grown beyond just two or three people, SAAC HQ is a virtual office located in many places, manned by hard working volunteers who have put SAAC ahead of their personal and business lives. Because of these hard working people, SAAC is continuing to operate in an ever-changing world. We are addressing the challenges mentioned in some of these threads, and will be communicating our direction soon, as Ron has indicated.
Regards,
Jay
So does this mean that there is a virtual leader as well?
Thanks Jay and Ron,
Location of board members is not a big deal. We have the conferencing technology, Skype for example, to allow board meetings to be held at anytime.
Since there is a The Board Room section on the forum, I would suggest the agenda for the board meetings be placed there and allow members to post ideas and suggestions to be included in the agenda.
After the meeting, minutes and feedback could be posted.
We have the tools, let's use them and get moving forward.
Quote from: Rodster-500 on August 19, 2018, 12:47:08 PM
Thanks Jay and Ron,
Location of board members is not a big deal. We have the conferencing technology, Skype for example, to allow board meetings to be held at anytime.
Since there is a The Board Room section on the forum, I would suggest the agenda for the board meetings be placed there and allow members to post ideas and suggestions to be included in the agenda.
As you can probably imagine, the last three months worth of board meetings have dealt almost exclusively with convention details. I believe that all those countless hours paid off in the form of a great convention. Yes, the convention was not perfect (no one ever is), so after the convention, the next board meeting dissected the convention, discussing the shortcomings, and making suggestions for next year's convention.
The next conference call will start the discussion about many of the items touched on here.
A word to the wise: The board certainly recognizes the importance of the SAAC forum to members and non-members alike. However, the board members do not read each post, nor do we have the time or desire to answer every question raised, especially rude comments from non-members who are trying to stir up trouble. If you SAAC members have a concern, let us know. We take suggestions from members very seriously.
For you non-members, join SAAC and show your support for these cars and the rest of the great people associated with this club.
Regards,
Jay
Quote from: JayTalbott on August 19, 2018, 10:56:23 PM
Quote from: Rodster-500 on August 19, 2018, 12:47:08 PM
Thanks Jay and Ron,
Location of board members is not a big deal. We have the conferencing technology, Skype for example, to allow board meetings to be held at anytime.
Since there is a The Board Room section on the forum, I would suggest the agenda for the board meetings be placed there and allow members to post ideas and suggestions to be included in the agenda.
As you can probably imagine, the last three months worth of board meetings have dealt almost exclusively with convention details. I believe that all those countless hours paid off in the form of a great convention. Yes, the convention was not perfect (no one ever is), so after the convention, the next board meeting dissected the convention, discussing the shortcomings, and making suggestions for next year's convention.
The next conference call will start the discussion about many of the items touched on here.
A word to the wise: The board certainly recognizes the importance of the SAAC forum to members and non-members alike. However, the board members do not read each post, nor do we have the time or desire to answer every question raised, especially rude comments from non-members who are trying to stir up trouble. If you SAAC members have a concern, let us know. We take suggestions from members very seriously.
For you non-members, join SAAC and show your support for these cars and the rest of the great people associated with this club.
Regards,
Jay
+ 1
Well said, Jay. And thank you to you and all the board members and volunteers who put the long hours to make SAAC-43 another fantastic convention.
Quote from: JayTalbott on August 19, 2018, 10:56:23 PM
Quote from: Rodster-500 on August 19, 2018, 12:47:08 PM
Thanks Jay and Ron,
Location of board members is not a big deal. We have the conferencing technology, Skype for example, to allow board meetings to be held at anytime.
Since there is a The Board Room section on the forum, I would suggest the agenda for the board meetings be placed there and allow members to post ideas and suggestions to be included in the agenda.
As you can probably imagine, the last three months worth of board meetings have dealt almost exclusively with convention details. I believe that all those countless hours paid off in the form of a great convention. Yes, the convention was not perfect (no one ever is), so after the convention, the next board meeting dissected the convention, discussing the shortcomings, and making suggestions for next year's convention.
The next conference call will start the discussion about many of the items touched on here.
A word to the wise: The board certainly recognizes the importance of the SAAC forum to members and non-members alike. However, the board members do not read each post, nor do we have the time or desire to answer every question raised, especially rude comments from non-members who are trying to stir up trouble. If you SAAC members have a concern, let us know. We take suggestions from members very seriously.
For you non-members, join SAAC and show your support for these cars and the rest of the great people associated with this club.
Regards,
Jay
You got that right!
QSS
Thanks jay! Few people realize how much time you "put in" making conventions come together. The "pilgrimage" ( for me an 8 hour drive one way) was CERTAINLY worth it . Seeing my friends of over 40 years was great. I wouldn't have missed it.
Why can non-members post here at all? Why should they have any say at all here?
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 20, 2018, 04:56:24 PM
Why can non-members post here at all? Why should they have any say at all here?
Probably because its a public forum . I do think that you should have to be a SAAC member to post parts for sale or wanted ads
Quote from: acman63 on August 20, 2018, 05:07:45 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 20, 2018, 04:56:24 PM
Why can non-members post here at all? Why should they have any say at all here?
I do think that you should have to be a SAAC member to post parts for sale or wanted ads
+1Or pay a fee if not.
I think SAAC membership deters the trolls some what.
One more compelling reason to be able to display our SAAC member badge...Lends some degree of credibility to the seller or buyer. Still waiting for someone to tell me why, in a world of staggering technological advances, this is impossible to achieve.
Quote from: NC TRACKRAT on August 20, 2018, 05:16:56 PM
Still waiting for someone to tell me why, in a world of staggering technological advances, this is impossible to achieve.
Well, wait no more. :-)
It's on the list of additions, but there have been too many compelling things ahead of it.... it will be here soon.
+1 Don't mind if they monitor the discussions but posting should be reserved for SAAC members IMHO.
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 20, 2018, 04:56:24 PM
Why can non-members post here at all? Why should they have any say at all here?
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 20, 2018, 05:15:58 PM
I think SAAC membership deters the trolls some what.
Quote from: kjspeed on August 20, 2018, 08:08:08 PM
+1 Don't mind if they monitor the discussions but posting should be reserved for SAAC members IMHO.
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 20, 2018, 04:56:24 PM
Why can non-members post here at all? Why should they have any say at all here?
Quote from: acman63 on August 20, 2018, 05:07:45 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 20, 2018, 04:56:24 PM
Why can non-members post here at all? Why should they have any say at all here?
Probably because its a public forum . I do think that you should have to be a SAAC member to post parts for sale or wanted ads
+1000
At the same time, is the purpose here to only serve and help members or is the site here to help those that are looking to buy vehicles, parts, fix or restore their cars?
The former can be seen and can support the feeling/opinion of some in the hobby out there, that members are nose up in the air, elitist. The latter suggests that SAAC or more correctly this site is not as focused only getting some more membership $$$'s and more interested in helping owners and the hobby without strings, confirming your membership number first.
Not taking one side in the discussion or the other, just stating how a non-member might view the situation. In most cases openness fosters membership though limits or extras for membership if limited (like access viewing or posting) to things like the wanted/for sale sections makes sense and can be seen as a carrot.
Just a thought – sure there is somewhere in the middle that would serve multiple purposes and points.
Allot of this is just marking a box or two while some of it would require revoking site membership. And that's not going to sound or play very well - especially with the drop in participation here since the restart
I guess what ever path would be chosen the Facebook page would be altered to keep access consistent
It's always been the intention to have the social portion of the club to be fully open to members and non-members alike... so many enthusiasts can visit, learn and benefit from an open forum.
The behavior of our circle is (and has been) exceptional...and non-member participation rarely gets out of line.
There is a current thought process to add extra features and benefits to SAAC members on the Forum.. and I am open to suggestions.
..extras that would not diminish the non-member experience, but would enhance it for the members.
Ron
SAAC HQ
Quote from: computerworks on August 20, 2018, 08:49:00 PM
It's always been the intention to have the social portion of the club to be fully open to members and non-members alike... so many enthusiasts can visit, learn and benefit from an open forum.
Ron
SAAC HQ
Who's intention? Yours? I thought you said that you were listening?
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 20, 2018, 08:55:27 PM
Who's intention? Yours? I thought you said that you were listening?
That was pretty clear.. your point?
Quote from: computerworks on August 20, 2018, 08:49:00 PM
There is a current thought process to add extra features and benefits to SAAC members on the Forum.. and I am open to suggestions.
..extras that would not diminish the non-member experience, but would enhance it for the members.
Ron
SAAC HQ
+++1 8)
Quote from: computerworks on August 20, 2018, 08:49:00 PM
It's always been the intention to have the social portion of the club to be fully open to members and non-members alike... so many enthusiasts can visit, learn and benefit from an open forum.
The behavior of our circle is (and has been) exceptional...and non-member participation rarely gets out of line.
There is a current thought process to add extra features and benefits to SAAC members on the Forum.. and I am open to suggestions.
..extras that would not diminish the non-member experience, but would enhance it for the members.
Ron
SAAC HQ
Jeff- you have always been a neutral voice of reason here and is appreciated more then you know. Referencing our childhood organizations... The kid with more merit badges within the group doesn't make him or her more passionate about the group that they are a part of. So it is with adult organizations or clubs, don't send the kid or (adult away) because they don't have the same status
as others, because he might one day be in charge of the whole thing. Remember ALL are welcome Mantra... It is in the business statement but they don't really believe it if you have DIFFERENCES with in the group. This is what we are teetering on and might trip things up if not taken care of properly.
Quote from: computerworks on August 20, 2018, 09:10:36 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 20, 2018, 08:55:27 PM
Who's intention? Yours? I thought you said that you were listening?
That was pretty clear.. your point?
It's not clear at all. It sounds like your listening is to go on doing what you want to and just pat the members on the head and tell us, "that's nice Dougie, just go sit down over there and be quiet"?
That's what I got out of that.
If it was me, I'd take a poll, right here, right now, on what the members want to do with letting non members post? To me, that's very clear.
It sounds clear like it is you who just decided all by your self to just give away the store?
Apparently you haven't been listening here?
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 21, 2018, 06:29:47 AM
If it was me, I'd take a poll...
Why, thanks. That's a good suggestion.
Well, here's a suggestion for the Forum: While membership in SAAC isn't a requirement, give those who visit the Forum and receive benefit from it an opportunity to become members of the Forum w/o a requirement to join SAAC. This is done on a couple of forums that I visit and with good results. For instance, RENNLIST is a giant forum for Porsche enthusiasts. Membership in the Porsche Club of America is not a requirement but, if you're so inclined, you can join RENNLIST as a member just to help support the site. Discount for multiple year membership is also an option.
Track rat- You are correct about most clubs. It is a place where people share their common passion and ideas of the things they love dearly. Porsche,Vette,Model A,Mopars,etc. No mention of money exchanging hands on any of these forums UNLESS a donation is given willingly to promote their cause. This is a microcosm of the car world, just a spec of sand when comparing it to other genres of car organizations. As people seem to be going away daily, we as a group need to be cognizant of why this is and fix it. If it keeps up there will be no one to argue about having a so called membership to sell a hipo exhaust manifold,they will find other venues to sell items. It is not the money that seems to be the issue here it is the message behind it that turns people off. We as old timers are the bulk of this group remember when we would meet at the races,car shows, drive up the coast with friends and all this was not money driven. I think that many wish they could rekindle those times.To segregate factions of this hobby will certainly be the end of the group. Lots to think about.
FWIW I have been a SAAC member off-and-on since the early '80s. Off more than on I'm sure.
In fact, my membership just ran out. I never received one of those SAAC Member "badges" on the old forum (which was fine).
I don't own a Shelby and don't plan to. My family has always been a Ford/Mercury family and I am fascinated by the design, engineering and racing history of Shelby American/Shelby Automotive and it's interconnections with the Mercury Cougars.
I came here to learn and share.
I've met some outstanding people on the forum and through that contact have been able to contribute my services, advice and/or images from my personal collection to several different efforts at restoring, promoting and educating people about the cars we all love.
I have gotten invaluable advice and learned more since joining these SAAC forum(s) than all my years in the club before that.
I don't plan on maintaining a full-time membership, so if that becomes required to contribute here then, well I guess I couldn't be member.
Not saying that is any great loss, just wanted to make the point of what would be gained (?) or lost by the changes being discussed. There is lots of stuff going on behind the scenes that isn't apparent to those that maybe aren't as into making connections and sharing.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-210818094708.jpeg)
Quote from: propayne on August 21, 2018, 09:53:38 AM
FWIW I have been a SAAC member off-and-on since the early '80s. Off more than on I'm sure.
In fact, my membership just ran out. I never received one of those SAAC Member "badges" on the old forum (which was fine).
I don't own a Shelby and don't plan to. My family has always been a Ford/Mercury family and I am fascinated by the design, engineering and racing history of Shelby American/Shelby Automotive and it's interconnections with the Mercury Cougars.
I came here to learn and share.
I've met some outstanding people on the forum and through that contact have been able to contribute my services, advice and/or images from my personal collection to several different efforts at restoring, promoting and educating people about the cars we all love.
I have gotten invaluable advice and learned more since joining these SAAC forum(s) than all my years in the club before that.
I don't plan on maintaining a full-time membership, so if that becomes required to contribute here then, well I guess I couldn't be member.
Not saying that is any great loss, just wanted to make the point of what would be gained (?) or lost by the changes being discussed. There is lots of stuff going on behind the scenes that isn't apparent to those that maybe aren't as into making connections and sharing.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-210818094708.jpeg)
+1
Let me clarify my suggestion about contributing money for annual "membership" in support of the Forum. This would not be a requirement for participation. Yes, there could be some benefits not available to "users" but the give and take of information would be available to all.
Quote from: propayne on August 21, 2018, 09:53:38 AM
FWIW I have been a SAAC member off-and-on since the early '80s. Off more than on I'm sure.
In fact, my membership just ran out. I never received one of those SAAC Member "badges" on the old forum (which was fine).
I don't own a Shelby and don't plan to. My family has always been a Ford/Mercury family and I am fascinated by the design, engineering and racing history of Shelby American/Shelby Automotive and it's interconnections with the Mercury Cougars.
I came here to learn and share.
I've met some outstanding people on the forum and through that contact have been able to contribute my services, advice and/or images from my personal collection to several different efforts at restoring, promoting and educating people about the cars we all love.
I have gotten invaluable advice and learned more since joining these SAAC forum(s) than all my years in the club before that.
I don't plan on maintaining a full-time membership, so if that becomes required to contribute here then, well I guess I couldn't be member.
Not saying that is any great loss, just wanted to make the point of what would be gained (?) or lost by the changes being discussed. There is lots of stuff going on behind the scenes that isn't apparent to those that maybe aren't as into making connections and sharing.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-210818094708.jpeg)
+1 I'm in the same situation.
regards
jim p
Quote from: propayne on August 21, 2018, 09:53:38 AM
FWIW I have been a SAAC member off-and-on since the early '80s. Off more than on I'm sure.
In fact, my membership just ran out. I never received one of those SAAC Member "badges" on the old forum (which was fine).
I don't own a Shelby and don't plan to. My family has always been a Ford/Mercury family and I am fascinated by the design, engineering and racing history of Shelby American/Shelby Automotive and it's interconnections with the Mercury Cougars.
I came here to learn and share.
I've met some outstanding people on the forum and through that contact have been able to contribute my services, advice and/or images from my personal collection to several different efforts at restoring, promoting and educating people about the cars we all love.
I have gotten invaluable advice and learned more since joining these SAAC forum(s) than all my years in the club before that.
I don't plan on maintaining a full-time membership, so if that becomes required to contribute here then, well I guess I couldn't be member.
Not saying that is any great loss, just wanted to make the point of what would be gained (?) or lost by the changes being discussed. There is lots of stuff going on behind the scenes that isn't apparent to those that maybe aren't as into making connections and sharing.
- Phillip
Phillip,
I don't know if you are aware of it, but SAAC offers an Affiliate membership. The Affiliate membership differs from Classical membership in that Affiliate members do not receive anything in the mail. Classic members get a membership card, decal and the 360 page Shelby American Annual magazine every year. Affiliate members get access to the magazine online, and enjoy all of the other benefits of being members, including being able to take advantage of Ford's X Plan. Affiliate membership is $25 per year, regardless of where you live. Classic membership is $50 per year for US residents, and $75 in Canada and elsewhere.
We would love to see you rejoin us, either at the Classic or Affiliate level. If you have any questions, please email me membership@saac.com.
Regards,
Jay
That is a heck of a DEAL! For the price of a dinner you can get access to all the information less the hard copies. Perhaps this will gain more interest.
Quote from: gt350cs on August 21, 2018, 01:31:23 PM
That is a heck of a DEAL! For the price of a dinner you can get access to all the information less the hard copies. Perhaps this will gain more interest.
Yeah, Check out what it costs to be a member on say, the Ford GT forum (Great forum BTW).
The rates here are insanely low in today's day and age.
Quote from: gt350cs on August 21, 2018, 01:31:23 PM
That is a heck of a DEAL! For the price of a dinner you can get access to all the information less the hard copies. Perhaps this will gain more interest.
Where do you eat for only $25, McDonald's? Not that there's anything wrong with McDonald's. :D
+1 With no financial support SAAC will eventually go away. Then there won't be a forum to not post on. Not an "official" one anyway. If anyone's not sure if it's worth it, then take a minute to read this (http://saac.memberlodge.com/page-283339). The SAAC discount on my Heacock policy more than covers my full annual membership, so for me it's a no-brainer. On the flip side, the members need to hold the organization accountable and ensure there is value in being a member.
Quote from: gt350cs on August 21, 2018, 01:31:23 PM
That is a heck of a DEAL! For the price of a dinner you can get access to all the information less the hard copies. Perhaps this will gain more interest.
Great way to put it Jay, many may not know but we can register and go to these conventions and roam around and do whatever we please, no worries. But Jay and the bunch have things to do that take most ALL of their time and don't have that privilege. He was stuck at registration the entire time with some help but mainly with his wife. So he misses everything that goes on. Likewise for all the rest of the BOD.
So my hats off to all u guys and gals that do a great job making these happen all these years.
Craig
Applebee's 2 for $20 all day long.......
Quote from: JayTalbott on August 21, 2018, 01:17:54 PM
Quote from: propayne on August 21, 2018, 09:53:38 AM
FWIW I have been a SAAC member off-and-on since the early '80s. Off more than on I'm sure.
In fact, my membership just ran out. I never received one of those SAAC Member "badges" on the old forum (which was fine).
I don't own a Shelby and don't plan to. My family has always been a Ford/Mercury family and I am fascinated by the design, engineering and racing history of Shelby American/Shelby Automotive and it's interconnections with the Mercury Cougars.
I came here to learn and share.
I've met some outstanding people on the forum and through that contact have been able to contribute my services, advice and/or images from my personal collection to several different efforts at restoring, promoting and educating people about the cars we all love.
I have gotten invaluable advice and learned more since joining these SAAC forum(s) than all my years in the club before that.
I don't plan on maintaining a full-time membership, so if that becomes required to contribute here then, well I guess I couldn't be member.
Not saying that is any great loss, just wanted to make the point of what would be gained (?) or lost by the changes being discussed. There is lots of stuff going on behind the scenes that isn't apparent to those that maybe aren't as into making connections and sharing.
- Phillip
Phillip,
I don't know if you are aware of it, but SAAC offers an Affiliate membership. The Affiliate membership differs from Classical membership in that Affiliate members do not receive anything in the mail. Classic members get a membership card, decal and the 360 page Shelby American Annual magazine every year. Affiliate members get access to the magazine online, and enjoy all of the other benefits of being members, including being able to take advantage of Ford's X Plan. Affiliate membership is $25 per year, regardless of where you live. Classic membership is $50 per year for US residents, and $75 in Canada and elsewhere.
We would love to see you rejoin us, either at the Classic or Affiliate level. If you have any questions, please email me membership@saac.com.
Regards,
Jay
Thanks for the reply Jay - actually I was not aware of the different levels of membership. I think that is a great idea.
I will definitely join up again - I just meant that I haven't maintained a consistent membership and I'm sure it will lapse from time to time.
- Phillip
Are we now considering a "vote" on not just being members to participate here on the forum in addition to the club membership but a toll also for the site??
After being involved in online forums for 3 decades there is so much that could be posted related to failures and successes over the years but that is too much (at the moment to type) to post here. Please consider that people in general today expect the internet and information to be free and open to everyone - like it or not.
We have recently been reminded in a number of discussions here on this site that forums like this one, for many are the "old way" - If so this may limit or cap the number of possible participants in the near future and possibly continue to whittle away at our numbers here over time. Currently it appears that there is a three – to maybe five to one ratio currently for those just watching to those that are members and that is before you introduce a charge for access if that were to take place. Would be interesting – other here should have access to the data– to see how many members actually post on a regular basis. Currently it appears that there may be a little more than twenty or maybe a little more?
Many have voiced their concerns about the limited number of people and participants that have returned after the crash. If your business had a fire and it burnt your building to the ground, how many of us would rebuild the business, stage a new grand reopening and tack on a membership fee to gain access to the business?
A few have offered comparisons of other clubs and their sites. Would suggest that no two memberships, backgrounds and limitations are the same. MCA is another example of what members only forum can look like and they have allot more representation, participation and involvement from the 48 more model years than we do here. AIs out membership (forum or "club") more like MCA or like the BMW club?
In closing it would be interesting (have noticed it is missing from the list at the top of the page) there is no "Donate" option like many of the sites that use similar software. And in turn wonder how many, considering the comments made, would use it if available. Most of our brethren forums (CJ registry, Boss 302....) pay their overhead with those finds while having an open, no membership requirement. Of course charging would mean moneys would be flowing into the site and the tax ramification that would bring with it since the site is not part of the "business".
Sorry for being verbose but figured some other things should be considered and/or at least mentioned as this conversation evolves. Our choices , if we're giving them, have ramifications and the internet heals and forgives slowly.
Best wishes to all as the path forward evolves.
I am going to be direct. This is going to be short and sweet before I do my walk around the aircraft and prepare for departure. I have been involved in two forums as of late having to do with Mustang/Shelby. The Concours forum and the SAAC. The Concours Mustang Forum generally has people willing to step up and give guidance on a regular basis. The SAAC can be like pulling teeth. Perhaps in large, because they pay others to do their work.
I don't unless it's beyond my skill set.
There's a reason this forum is on the verge of non-existence. I see quite a few exchanges here when it comes to disagreement on issues, many aren't friendly either. I was finally getting ready to join the SAAC now that my vehicle is finished, and this hasn't been a great introduction to operations. I am not going to drive my Shelby 1000 miles for a meet. I am in the DFW area and have yet to see anything in the area that is club related.
It's not the money, it's the fact there are few ventures where practical participation for us is available.
Just my two cents. I guess something else to ponder on my way to Chicago this evening.
-Keith
Great points, JP. A donation to SAAC Forum site would be a nice option. I have been a SAAC member since 1984, I believe, and reaped enormous value from the information gained and friendships made over the years. I have been nutty enough to attend a couple dozen conventions even though the closest ones are at least 2400 miles away,most are 3500 to 5000 miles away. This year we had fifteen people from our local club attend with five cars. A number were first timers and signed up with SAAC even though they did not own a Shelby vehicle. Everyone had a great time and there were no complaints. It is about the enthusiasm and knowledge.
One of the challenges here is a pet peeve of mine that I see in many clubs, local and national. It is the person who refuses to be a part of any organized hobby group and pay dues. They have their list of negative reasons. But they are quick to go a club for free information about their vehicle, whether it is a maintenance problem, history or to sell it. If it were not for the volunteers and dues paying membership, their access to information would be extremely limited. 8)
Are the forum numbers down because non owners or some that signed up to post a question or for sale item no longer need/want the connection they made and may have not been using anyway? SAAC does have a "value added" website. The official club site has member only access and downloadable content that isn't available to non members. Yes you may never see a SAAC convention in Texas - too hot and too close distance and date wise to Mid America meet. Of course if Green Valley raceway still exists I'm voting to have SAAC 50 there.
^^^^^ Don- I wanted to ask looking at the mileage you travel to events 2400 3500 5000. It is 2776 miles from L.A. to NEW YORK do you take the long detour on your visits or are you talking about there and back mileage?
Hawaii is about 2400 miles from the West Coast. Double that to get back to events on the East Coast. Some local club members ship and keep cars on the western region locales so they can get to various events. You may have noticed a few rides with Hawaii license plates. If they have to go east, they drive, not trailer. Time, cost, hassles? it is about the event and the people. Like I said, we are (macadamia) nuts! 8)
Quote from: Don Johnston on August 21, 2018, 10:39:02 PM
Hawaii is about 2400 miles from the West Coast. Double that to get back to events on the East Coast. Some local club members ship and keep cars on the western region locales so they can get to various events. You may have noticed a few rides with Hawaii license plates. If they have to go east, they drive, not trailer. Time, cost, hassles? it is about the event and the people. Like I said, we are (macadamia) nuts! 8)
We always enjoy seeing the Hawaiian contingent and the cases of macadamia nuts. You guys had many safe miles until this year but I was glad to see the Cobra back on 4 wheels with only a little bodywork and paint needed.
Quote from: jguyer on August 21, 2018, 02:11:00 PM
Quote from: gt350cs on August 21, 2018, 01:31:23 PM
That is a heck of a DEAL! For the price of a dinner you can get access to all the information less the hard copies. Perhaps this will gain more interest.
Where do you eat for only $25, McDonald's? Not that there's anything wrong with McDonald's. :D
where do you live to have to pay $25 for McD's? Alaska ;D
My wife and I regularly eat at restaurants for less than $25
Probably Commiefornia, Connecticut or New York. You get to pay for the 15.00 minimum wage, Unhealthy eating tax and 11% sales tax to pay for everyone else but those we owe, Veterans. Connecticult Mc Donalds was about 50% more expensive than it is here in the DFW area. Of course, I can't get a lobster roll here.. :D
Where do you eat for only $25, McDonald's? Not that there's anything wrong with McDonald's. :D
[/quote]where do you live to have to pay $25 for McD's? Alaska ;D
My wife and I regularly eat at restaurants for less than $25
[/quote]
Well I live in California and the less than $25 meals are around still. The help by the way is being quickly replaced with machines thanks to the increases in minimum wage, just as we predicted. Lower minimum wage and bring back the jobs for our students and seniors!
Quote from: gt350cs on August 22, 2018, 09:50:05 AM
Well I live in California and the less than $25 meals are around still. The help by the way is being quickly replaced with machines thanks to the increases in minimum wage, just as we predicted. Lower minimum wage and bring back the jobs for our students and seniors!
Being a Californian I have some skin in this game- Why would you lower the minimum wage when their take home pay wont take them home? Students and seniors that need supplemental income to match their schedules cant put gas in their tanks and put food on the table let alone pay rent . Pay your 7.50 Happy Meal and know you got to help someone's life on that day. ;)
Quote from: 427heaven on August 22, 2018, 10:11:21 AM
Quote from: gt350cs on August 22, 2018, 09:50:05 AM
Well I live in California and the less than $25 meals are around still. The help by the way is being quickly replaced with machines thanks to the increases in minimum wage, just as we predicted. Lower minimum wage and bring back the jobs for our students and seniors!
Being a Californian I have some skin in this game- Why would you lower the minimum wage when their take home pay wont take them home? Students and seniors that need supplemental income to match their schedules cant put gas in their tanks and put food on the table let alone pay rent . Pay your 7.50 Happy Meal and know you got to help someone's life on that day. ;)
I resemble the remark about senior citizens! Here in California I have become a minority and I want to be subsidized like the people that USED to be called the minority STILL ARE! LOL You are 100% correct that S/S is NOT enough even with zero debt! Utilities , property taxes , food , gas etc eat up that check. Supplemental income is REQUIRED ( or a large nest egg).
Randy
Quote from: Don Johnston on August 21, 2018, 06:08:54 PM
Great points, JP. A donation to SAAC Forum site would be a nice option. [...]
One of the challenges here is a pet peeve of mine that I see in many clubs, local and national. It is the person who refuses to be a part of any organized hobby group and pay dues. They have their list of negative reasons. But they are quick to go a club for free information about their vehicle, whether it is a maintenance problem, history or to sell it. If it were not for the volunteers and dues paying membership, their access to information would be extremely limited. 8)
Seems to me that this could be easily implemented by creating a third "membership" level to SAAC - one just for those who wanted to voluntarily donate to the cause without expecting anything in return (assuming the forum stays free for all). But that option would only appeal to those who wanted to donate less than $25 since that is what an Affiliate membership costs. I'm not sure how many people would take advantage of that. My guess - not very many.
I guess it all boils down to whether people who decline to support the organization have a right to expect that the organization serve their needs for free.
Well, here in is the issue. Many who contribute information here often don't own cars, but were part of SA or Ford. I take pictures for those reassembling their vehicle to assist. So many here in this forum contribute to the community one way or another.
-Keith
In the spirit of support of SAAC:
1) As a reminder, SAAC is a for profit corporation. Any donations, just like any other income will be taxed...just like any other income. They will see maybe 50% of any donation...maybe. Why are we 'assuming' they need money ??
2) Volunteerism has been a cornerstone of the local and national SAAC events......the grassroots will support the club. Bring out a car and let a 10 year old sit in it while the engine is running.
3) Provide the opportunity to learn about the history and mystique and details of SA.............hate to keep repeating....but everyone on this Forum should have all the Registrys.
4)Passion has been replaced by Portfolio...........this organization, no matter how much of a Forum survives....will eventually shrink to fit based upon the passion of the ownership and the availability of the cars.
Off to Monterey............
I guess I'm just dense or uninformed. Just how does this site exist without money? If money is required (and I'm sure it is), where does it come from if not from SAAC? Why can't benevolent individuals contribute to this forum for its longevity and, hopefully, improvement, w/o going through SAAC?
Quote from: TA22 (Gary Goeringer) on August 22, 2018, 11:20:03 AM
In the spirit of support of SAAC:
1) As a reminder, SAAC is a for profit corporation. Any donations, just like any other income will be taxed...just like any other income. They will see maybe 50% of any donation...maybe. Why are we 'assuming' they need money ??
Gary,
This is completely INCORRECT. SAAC is a Not-For-Profit organization, a 501(c)3 organized as such under Connecticut law.
Regards,
Jay
Quote from: JayTalbott on August 22, 2018, 01:22:02 PM
Gary,
This is completely INCORRECT. SAAC is a Not-For-Profit organization, a 501(c)3 organized as such under Connecticut law.
Regards,
Jay
As with any charity, you can see their information and 990 tax forms on https://www.guidestar.org/profile/27-0294359
Jay and all Forum members.....I apologize for the misinformation