SAAC Forum

The Cars => 1966 Shelby GT350/GT350H => Topic started by: cswilson17 on September 12, 2018, 11:30:39 AM

Title: Verify Authenticity
Post by: cswilson17 on September 12, 2018, 11:30:39 AM
I am throwing this out to all the 66 Shelby experts.  I am trying to determine the authenticity of the 1966 Shelby GT350 that my wife and I inherited.  Her father was the original buyer and owner of the vehicle until his death 8 years ago.  It is not in the best of shape, but we were just able to locate the Ford VIN number along with the Shelby number.   I do not have the means or ability to restore it, but many people do.  In order to attempt to sell the vehicle I would like to authenticate what we have.  Up until now no one knew this car even existed anymore because it has not been driven since the 1970's.  Finding anything on it has been close to impossible.  If anyone knows who I need to contact please let me know. 

C. Wilson
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Cobrask8 on September 12, 2018, 11:39:49 AM
First thing of course is to contact the proper registrar with your SFM number. Only they have the "secret" ford VIN to verify the car.

http://www.saac.com/registry_updates.html?tab=1#TabbedPanels1


Many here can help you once the car is authenticared
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: silverton_ford on September 12, 2018, 11:41:10 AM
You need to get in touch with Howard Pardee.   He is the 1965 and 1966 Registar.  He has all of the information on these cars.  He is a nice guy and will help you with the information you need.

Howard Pardee: saachp@snet.net

Just for information.   Please do not share the Ford VIN in a public forum.  You can share the Shelby VIN because that is a known number that is in the registry.  Keeping the Ford VIN secure helps prevent the bad guys from trying to clone a car.   I just wanted to let you know that before you get too far.

Good luck with your car!   It sounds very exciting to have this one.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on September 12, 2018, 12:04:47 PM
is this the car I saw located in Maryland a few years back, unrestored but appeared to be all original, I believe I saw it in southern Maryland area (Annapolis)
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: gt350cs on September 12, 2018, 12:13:53 PM
Yes, Howard is your guy. He can assist with all you need including how to best move forward with sale to insure a fair market price.

It is unfortunate that you cannot keep it in the family. Keep in mind that it does not have to be concours in order to be enjoyed and appreciated by others.

Good luck,

Dennis
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: cswilson17 on September 12, 2018, 01:05:57 PM
Thanks for the information.  I'll post an update on the findings here soon!  This car is located in Texas. 
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: J_Speegle on September 12, 2018, 01:53:35 PM
Since the VIN match is a small but very important part of the puzzle you might want to enlist the help of a good inspector of the car so that a full report can be produced. If the car is put up for sale this can speed up the process, keep the potential buyer from having to find and pay for an inspection and if there is name recognition everything can go quicker and easier if the car checks out. At minimum it should provide an independent disinterested third party opinion and finding of facts on the current condition.

As always - for 65-66 - the journey begins with Howard


Good luck with your choices and moving forward 


 
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: zray on September 12, 2018, 09:26:09 PM
You cant just depend  on matching Ford and Shelby VIN's to guarantee anything. There are some cars out there  that were duplicated in decades past by unscrupulous shops" that had the knowledge of both VIN's. NO ONE knows how many of these fakes are in circulation today. No one.

Not saying that's the case here. But it should be pointed out that an PERSONAL inspection by a recognized Shelby authority is the best way to proceed if a cars history in unknown.

Z
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: J_Speegle on September 12, 2018, 10:01:50 PM
....Not saying that's the case here. But it should be pointed out that an PERSONAL inspection by a recognized Shelby authority is the best way to proceed if a cars history in unknown.

Might even have benefits on cars where the history is pretty well established. Have had some cars that I believe the current owners didn't realize was not likely the real car.  Some that had been owned by the same owner for decades - never a pretty situation.  Good inspections can also document a starting point for the new owner's ownership and point in time.

At the same time I've run across buyers that didn't want to know - to each their own  ::) 
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: cswilson17 on September 13, 2018, 02:09:30 PM
I will get an inspection done, but we know the history of the car.  My wife's father bought the car new on January 21, 1967.  We have the original bill of sale from the dealership with her father's signature and the amount paid.  There is no doubt what the vehicle is and where it has been.   I understand inspections will have to be made due to fakes out there, but this has been a one owner vehicle until his passing.  The only thing in question is the engine.  By the looks of it it looks like the original, but it did have a front end collision back in the early 1970's.  It was repaired, but am currently unable to find the number on the block to determine if the original engine was removed.  The remainder of the vehicle is original, albeit not in great shape, but original. 
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: silverton_ford on September 13, 2018, 02:18:23 PM
Can you share pictures?
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: gt350cs on September 13, 2018, 02:26:26 PM
Yes, it would be great to see some pictures.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: cswilson17 on September 13, 2018, 02:36:32 PM
These are the only ones have on me right now.  I have others on some other devices. 
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: cswilson17 on September 13, 2018, 02:43:56 PM
Here it is back in its hay day.  Father in law driving.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: silverton_ford on September 13, 2018, 02:53:17 PM
.... but am currently unable to find the number on the block to determine if the original engine was removed.

Thank you for some of the photos.  I am excited to see more.

About the VIN on the block.  The Hipo motors have the Ford VIN hand stamped in the side of the block just above where the oil pan mounts.  You might need a wire brush and some degreaser to find it.  If it doesn't have the Ford VIN, then most likely it is a replaced block.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Shelby_r_b on September 13, 2018, 02:57:17 PM
.... but am currently unable to find the number on the block to determine if the original engine was removed.

Thank you for some of the photos.  I am excited to see more.

About the VIN on the block.  The Hipo motors have the Ford VIN hand stamped in the side of the block just above where the oil pan mounts.  You might need a wire brush and some degreaser to find it.  If it doesn't have the Ford VIN, then most likely it is a replaced block.

This and the VIN will be just below the #1 spark plug (front passenger side to the block)
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: gt350cs on September 13, 2018, 03:28:43 PM
Very nice pictures. Thank you for sharing.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: 2112 on September 13, 2018, 03:37:58 PM
Here it is back in its hay day.  Father in law driving.

Autocrossing to boot! Very Cool.   8)
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: griffin289trips on September 14, 2018, 03:05:46 PM
Is that a 66 real-wood steering wheel?  Needs some help.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: cswilson17 on September 14, 2018, 04:03:04 PM
Yes, interior is not in great shape.  The outside has some rust, too.  It needs a full restoration. 
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: pmustang on September 14, 2018, 05:30:28 PM
Thanks for sharing your story and photos

Best of luck realizing max funds from the sale

Cheers  Peter
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: alexgt350h on September 14, 2018, 08:17:10 PM
Love Hertz cars, Thanks for the story and pictures.

Like Little Red - they are still out there!

Brent A
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: s2ms on September 15, 2018, 12:37:11 AM
Here it is back in its hay day.  Father in law driving.

Awesome pic, thanks for sharing? Black?
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: 8T03S1425 on September 15, 2018, 11:29:38 AM
(http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3028.0;attach=8934)

Is this an original 4-speed car?

Steve
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: stephen_becker on September 15, 2018, 12:49:01 PM
C. Wilson - Check your PM's in your profile
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Shelbyneeds on September 28, 2018, 09:20:23 PM
Wow! Sounds like you unfortunately, inherited a great find. I would be interested in this if and when you decide to sell. I am looking to restore and keep an early GT350 as a father son project. Please keep me in mind when you're ready. I have no problem in you getting an appraisal and determining an asking price from that.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: pchmotoho on September 30, 2018, 05:59:17 PM
Is it a Hertz car? It appears black in the picture, is that correct?
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: silverton_ford on December 23, 2018, 11:21:07 PM
This looks like the car made it on ebay.   6S2357.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273622292921?ul_noapp=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/273622292921?ul_noapp=true)
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: GT350Lad on December 24, 2018, 03:11:40 AM
Few odd stickers and markings and no sign of Shelby VIN plate, interesting car and a lot of work but worth doing, nice black on black, is it a 4 speed car?
Merry Xmas
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: J_Speegle on December 24, 2018, 03:54:49 AM
Few odd stickers and markings and no sign of Shelby VIN plate, interesting car and a lot of work but worth doing, nice black on black, is it a 4 speed car?
Merry Xmas

From the pictures it appears to be a 4 speed car (pedals and shifter) currently
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: GT350Lad on December 24, 2018, 06:22:59 AM
True Jeff. Big project, makes mine look small. Just gotta show my wife this one to make her believe  that things can always be worse
Cheers
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Greg on December 24, 2018, 07:54:40 AM
At least that's not a crazy number and it will make someone a great project.  I wonder if it has the original drivetrain?
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Bigfoot on December 24, 2018, 09:44:46 AM
neat piece.
Hard to put a value on this one without knowing what it would cost to restore. Which of course would require an inspection.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: NC TRACKRAT on December 24, 2018, 10:50:34 AM
Agree.  It all depends on what's there and what's not and whether you're doing your own work or farming it out.  For the sake of discussion, reading the eBay listing, say it sold for the asking price of $80K and the buyer had the listing shop do a top-notch restoration for the quoted $125K...would the car bring $205K in today's market?
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Grumpy on December 24, 2018, 12:52:28 PM
Agree.  It all depends on what's there and what's not and whether you're doing your own work or farming it out.  For the sake of discussion, reading the eBay listing, say it sold for the asking price of $80K and the buyer had the listing shop do a top-notch restoration for the quoted $125K...would the car bring $205K in today's market?

Yes the $125k + Parts. That in itself could be very expensive.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Greg on December 24, 2018, 01:54:23 PM
Agree.  It all depends on what's there and what's not and whether you're doing your own work or farming it out.  For the sake of discussion, reading the eBay listing, say it sold for the asking price of $80K and the buyer had the listing shop do a top-notch restoration for the quoted $125K...would the car bring $205K in today's market?

$205K isn't unreasonable IMO but it would depend on the restoration quality and originality.  The 66's are moving up since the 65's moved up.     
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: GT350Lad on December 24, 2018, 02:33:05 PM
Agree.  It all depends on what's there and what's not and whether you're doing your own work or farming it out.  For the sake of discussion, reading the eBay listing, say it sold for the asking price of $80K and the buyer had the listing shop do a top-notch restoration for the quoted $125K...would the car bring $205K in today's market?

$205K isn't unreasonable IMO but it would depend on the restoration quality and originality.  The 66's are moving up since the 65's moved up.   

Agree if it’s a 4 speed in original black done properly I can see that money being possible. Would have to depend if original drivetrain being present
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Sfm6sxxx on December 24, 2018, 02:52:43 PM
Hopefully, they kept the original drivers side apron with the VIN stamping.  Possibly hit hard in front given replacement aprons, rad support, and fenders.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: 1970cougar on December 24, 2018, 03:18:33 PM
How much is it worth with out the orig motor
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: J_Speegle on December 24, 2018, 09:42:53 PM
How much is it worth with out the orig motor

Another question asked here and on other sites almost monthly. Really no hard and fast answer IMHO to that since (like a color change or trans change) it depends allot on the possible buyer. For some buyers they would not be interested in the car to keep (we're not discussing flippers here) at any price while others would deduct some and others it would not make a difference. The later might be planning on just building a fun car and plan on not keeping the car stock so in a stroker with aluminum heads we go.

Since its an active and current auction I've got no comment on value at this time :)
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: GT350Lad on December 25, 2018, 12:34:19 AM
Registry says black with no lemans stripe (I just bought a registry last month) but doesn’t specify a transmission
Desirable combo
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Coralsnake on December 25, 2018, 08:31:31 AM
I would offer this, the old formula (value = purchase cost + restoration costs) does not apply. If that were the case, very few Shelbys would ever be restored at this point, because restoration costs are high.

As Jeff mentioned, engine originality is not important to all buyers, so therefore, I think its probably better to add a premium if that case exists.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Greg on December 25, 2018, 09:21:53 AM
How much is it worth with out the orig motor

I believe its in the 30-35% discount range. A performance car that has lasted over 50 years with its original VIN stamped engine is a rare gem.  Also, the statement that very few would be restored if it were just a cost formula does apply.  You have to love the car and willing to invest in it.  I also don't believe this one would take $125K to restore if you could do some of the work yourself.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Bigblock on December 25, 2018, 12:50:39 PM
How much is it worth with out the orig motor

I believe its in the 30-35% discount range.

Isn't the engine question the first thing people ask when they are looking at a classic car for sale? Or if not present also ask if it has a 4 speed.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Greg on December 25, 2018, 01:18:47 PM
How much is it worth with out the orig motor

I believe its in the 30-35% discount range.

Isn't the engine question the first thing people ask when they are looking at a classic car for sale? Or if not present also ask if it has a 4 speed.

+1
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Coralsnake on December 25, 2018, 01:40:17 PM
Really, in the case of a Shelby do you think that's the "first" question?  I see an awful lot of Shelbys sell without their original drivetrain components.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Greg on December 25, 2018, 02:04:21 PM
Really, in the case of a Shelby do you think that's the "first" question?  I see an awful lot of Shelbys sell without their original drivetrain components.

I think it depends on the asking price to a degree. 

If you are asking top dollar and have the paper work that verifies authintiecity that it is a real Shelby, then I believe that would naturally be the first question.  If it's a true Shelby and the price is low, then I suspect a buyer would be more interested in condition.   
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: CharlesTurner on December 25, 2018, 02:33:15 PM
I'd think a replacement radiator support and driver side apron would be a detriment to the value also.  A collision requiring replacement of those components would normally be a hard hit.  Might be other structural issues/twisting.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Bigfoot on December 25, 2018, 04:02:58 PM
How much is it worth with out the orig motor

I believe its in the 30-35% discount range.

Without trying to “fine tune” anyone else’s estimate I would say Ballpark 25%.
As an example
If a nicely restored 67-350 or KR with NOM (non original motor) was 120k,..I don’t see the same car with original VIN stamped motor,..apples to apples condition being $40,000 more. Maybe like $20,000 - $25000 more.
Just my 2c
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Greg on December 25, 2018, 06:44:55 PM
The lister responded that the car had its Vin stamped engine as well as the original transmission and rear end.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Sfm6sxxx on December 25, 2018, 07:38:49 PM
Interesting.  My friend was told the engine was a 68 302 shortblock that had the original heads & intake.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Greg on December 25, 2018, 07:44:33 PM
Interesting.  My friend was told the engine was a 68 302 shortblock that had the original heads & intake.

Then if anyone is interested, they better view in person or get a guarantee before you purchase.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: TLea on December 25, 2018, 07:52:13 PM
My experience is the current trend is auto transmissions are larger detractor of value than original motor
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: CharlesTurner on December 26, 2018, 11:19:35 AM
Interesting.  My friend was told the engine was a 68 302 shortblock that had the original heads & intake.

The motor that appears to be in the car is a C8 casting.  If the original block was included, would think there would be pictures.

Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: silverton_ford on December 26, 2018, 01:10:35 PM
More pictures here.  This was listed in the auction.  https://www.flickr.com/gp/52767089@N05/448mbB (https://www.flickr.com/gp/52767089@N05/448mbB)
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: GT350Lad on December 26, 2018, 03:01:04 PM
Thanks Brian, lots of pics, confirms the grafted cowl that Jim alluded to in the other thread, gee it looks rough in areas. Some rear end photos and T10 (if present) would be good
Still think you gotta restore the old girl
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Greg on December 26, 2018, 03:16:31 PM
I received this from the person selling the car.

"Tonight my wife updated the eBay listing with the following:

1) Vehicle photos - she added 7 more photos that include photos of it when her dad had it which is how it originally looked, a GT350 Owner's Manual, a Ford High Performance Equipment Manual, a 1966 GT350 Pre-Delivery Service Sheet, the Original Purchase Agreement and a Ford Owner's Manual.

2) Added a list of the parts on the shelves as seen in the photo.

3) Added a link to Flickr where she uploaded 350 photos of the vehicle and the items on the parts' list.

Last of all, the daughter personally told me that she believes she remembers the Shelby plate. She stated she has boxes of all her dad's stuff unopened, and they have not gone through them to date. I emphasized that the plate was critical to the sale of the vehicle, and she needed to look for it ASAP.

Again, I still strongly recommend that any interested party take a personal look at this vehicle.

Please let me know if you have any questions or need more information."
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: J_Speegle on December 26, 2018, 05:16:22 PM
More pictures here.  This was listed in the auction.  https://www.flickr.com/gp/52767089@N05/448mbB (https://www.flickr.com/gp/52767089@N05/448mbB)

As ALWAYS have the car looked at before you buy or bid.

Don't be "that guy"
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: 6s1640 on December 27, 2018, 02:15:23 PM
I find it odd that the export brace doubler is absent or removed.   If it was removed, who ever removed was very careful to not score the cowl area from cutting the welds.  I find this questionable.   Also, why would this piece be removed, unless it was not there to begin with.   I see this as a red flag.

The FORD VIN is consistent with my tracking of SAI GT350 and FORD VIN's.  It is very small number of units off another GT350 I have tracked that is very very close.

Cory
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: Sfm6sxxx on December 27, 2018, 02:22:39 PM
I find it odd that the export brace doubler is absent or removed.   If it was removed, who ever removed was very careful to not score the cowl area from cutting the welds.  I find this questionable.   Also, why would this piece be removed, unless it was not there to begin with.   I see this as a red flag.

The FORD VIN is consistent with my tracking of SAI GT350 and FORD VIN's.  It is very small number of units off another GT350 I have tracked that is very very close.

Cory

I assume you are speaking of the black car on Ebay that had "substantial metal repair" (likely from the tires up to the highest point of the roof).  It is just a few numbers off from.
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: CharlesTurner on December 27, 2018, 02:23:36 PM
I find it odd that the export brace doubler is absent or removed.   If it was removed, who ever removed was very careful to not score the cowl area from cutting the welds.  I find this questionable.   Also, why would this piece be removed, unless it was not there to begin with.   I see this as a red flag.


The top cowl section is not original to the car.  As noted previously, that piece has a NJ assembly plant 'PAINT OK' stamp.  Seems just a coincidence that a black one was found.  It doesn't appear to even be attached.

Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: s2ms on December 27, 2018, 04:10:55 PM
Interesting seat belts with the leather pad attached to the latch...
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: 6s1640 on December 27, 2018, 06:40:10 PM
I find it odd that the export brace doubler is absent or removed.   If it was removed, who ever removed was very careful to not score the cowl area from cutting the welds.  I find this questionable.   Also, why would this piece be removed, unless it was not there to begin with.   I see this as a red flag.


The top cowl section is not original to the car.  As noted previously, that piece has a NJ assembly plant 'PAINT OK' stamp.  Seems just a coincidence that a black one was found.  It doesn't appear to even be attached.

Hi Charles,

I checked, but missed.  Now that makes sense.

Thanks

Cory

Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: silverton_ford on December 27, 2018, 11:19:02 PM
I find it odd that the export brace doubler is absent or removed.   If it was removed, who ever removed was very careful to not score the cowl area from cutting the welds.  I find this questionable.   Also, why would this piece be removed, unless it was not there to begin with.   I see this as a red flag.

The FORD VIN is consistent with my tracking of SAI GT350 and FORD VIN's.  It is very small number of units off another GT350 I have tracked that is very very close.

Cory

The cowl appears to be just resting (not welded in place) on the car and from a New Jersey car.  That was talked about in another thread. 
Title: Re: Verify Authenticity
Post by: J_Speegle on December 27, 2018, 11:52:17 PM
I find it odd that the export brace doubler is absent or removed.   If it was removed, who ever removed was very careful to not score the cowl area from cutting the welds.  I find this questionable.   Also, why would this piece be removed, unless it was not there to begin with.   I see this as a red flag.

Not sure what your referring to. The cowl top shown in the pictures is from another car so removing it would not have left any damage from the process and the replacement (or the poor effort of that process - shown in the picture file provided earlier in the thread not the ad) would be the reason for removing it originally from the body IMHO So if the pictures are all from the current car it seems to me logical and fit what we're seeing at least on that detail.

As mentioned in a duplicate thread the signs visible in the pictures suggest where the top of the cowl (the donor car) came from as Brian mentions above.