There was a posting before the original site crashed on 66 G.T 350's that were delivered without the washers under the upper bolts on the front shocks. Can anyone remember the serial number range, I seem to remember starting around 1725 and going up.
I remember the survey/post. It was linked in part to the washer shortage of the era?
Cheers
Quote from: GT350Lad on September 13, 2018, 05:03:20 PM
I remember the survey/post. It was linked in part to the washer shortage of the era?
Don't know that a shortage is anything other than a possibility that some one thought of during the discussion. As far as I recall no evidence of that was offered, only the "possibility"
As always its tough to determine if the parts we see on cars today (especially since most cars have been restored at some point) are the ones they were delivered with
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 13, 2018, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: GT350Lad on September 13, 2018, 05:03:20 PM
I remember the survey/post. It was linked in part to the washer shortage of the era?
Don't know that a shortage is anything other than a possibility that some one thought of during the discussion. As far as I recall no evidence of that was offered, only the "possibility"
As always its tough to determine if the parts we see on cars today (especially since most cars have been restored at some point) are the ones they were delivered with
To add another possibility besides a shortage or past owner change is a assemblyline "mistake". Regardless the cars were engineered and specked out to have the reinforced upper shock bracket. Although Ford used terminology used in another post I think bee hive sounds silly but that is just me. :D
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 13, 2018, 05:23:56 PM
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 13, 2018, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: GT350Lad on September 13, 2018, 05:03:20 PM
I remember the survey/post. It was linked in part to the washer shortage of the era?
Don't know that a shortage is anything other than a possibility that some one thought of during the discussion. As far as I recall no evidence of that was offered, only the "possibility"
As always its tough to determine if the parts we see on cars today (especially since most cars have been restored at some point) are the ones they were delivered with
To add another possibility besides a shortage or past owner change is a assemblyline "mistake". Regardless the cars were engineered and specked out to have the reinforced upper shock bracket. Although Ford used terminology used in another post I think bee hive sounds silly but that is just me. :D
Agree Bob,let's get back to Shock tower cap ;)
All right shock tower cap. Any serial numbers of cars that don't have the washers welded on?
Quote from: 6s1802 on September 13, 2018, 06:29:37 PM
All right shock tower cap. Any serial numbers of cars that don't have the washers welded on?
Plenty but no way of telling (on the majority of them) if the caps are original or not so the findings/results could be very questionable
Have pictures of approximately 50% of the cars. Not all show that particular detail
I've been keeping a list for almost 25 years on this topic, I'll post the SAI VIN range tonight when I get home from work. The missing washers are very clustered around a fairly tight VIN range from what I have observed.
6S1078 has them and the engine bay doesn't appear to have ever been restored.
Thanks S2ms
Quote from: GT350Lad on September 13, 2018, 05:35:25 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 13, 2018, 05:23:56 PM
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 13, 2018, 05:07:20 PM
Don't know that a shortage is anything other than a possibility that some one thought of during the discussion. As far as I recall no evidence of that was offered, only the "possibility"
As always its tough to determine if the parts we see on cars today (especially since most cars have been restored at some point) are the ones they were delivered with
To add another possibility besides a shortage or past owner change is a assemblyline "mistake". Regardless the cars were engineered and specked out to have the reinforced upper shock bracket. Although Ford used terminology used in another post I think bee hive sounds silly but that is just me. :D
Agree Bob, let’s get back to Shock tower cap ;)
+2
Was thinking about this question at SAAC 43. Their is a beautiful, original paint, original owner, red 66 with a supercharger on it. No washers on it, never was. I'm sure many of you know the car (at least you west coast guys). It was definitely a late number car.
I asked the owner about the lack of washers he said he had no idea why his car was missing them.
OK, FWIW...
I have 47 cars on my list. The earliest is in the late 1400's, the latest in the 2200's. Three of the earliest cars on the list have one shock tower with washers and one without. Thirty four are tightly clustered between 1600-1900.
They include restored and unrestored cars. If there was any question about whether a car was a rebody, had the front clip replaced, etc., it wasn't included.
How many in the late 1700 early 1800 range?
Only got half way through my pictures and had examples peppered from double digit cars through the 1400's most singles (not groupings) with a couple of clusters of 2 or 3 cars within 2 - 15 digit spread
16 examples in the 6S0001 - 6S1499 range so far
I was the owner of 6s1869 and unless Hertz removed them they were missing from the car when i had it back in the 70's.
Quote from: s2ms on September 13, 2018, 11:29:41 PM
OK, FWIW...
I have 47 cars on my list. The earliest is in the late 1400's, the latest in the 2200's. Three of the earliest cars on the list have one shock tower with washers and one without. Thirty four are tightly clustered between 1600-1900.
They include restored and unrestored cars. If there was any question about whether a car was a rebody, had the front clip replaced, etc., it wasn't included.
Dave that is consistent with my notes. ( I never took pictures back then) 6S1514 had "one with and one without" , so we changed it in the '70's. I changed at least ten other GT350s that didn't have the washers. Back then I figured it was because the cars had Autolite shocks not Konis and Ford(or SAI) didn't feel they were necessary any longer. I used the same FE rocker stand washer , notched , and mig welded like Ford did.
Randy
I thought they were a T-5 item.
What's a beehive?
Quote from: camp upshur on September 14, 2018, 12:33:37 PM
I thought they were a T-5 item.
What'a a beehive?
Yes - part of the Ford factory chassis strengthing parts package for exported cars.
Quote from: s2ms on September 13, 2018, 11:29:41 PM
,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Thirty four are tightly clustered between 1600-1900.
How many do you have with washers from the same 300 car spread?
Quote from: camp upshur on September 14, 2018, 12:33:37 PM
I thought they were a T-5 item.
What's a beehive?
A term that some Ford employees have used to refer to the upper shock brackets in Ford documents. I suppose it is because of the shape of the 65/66 upper shock brackets that resemble a cartoon bee hive. Kind of silly if you ask me but it was a term that was used.
Quote from: 6s1802 on September 14, 2018, 12:05:04 AM
How many in the late 1700 early 1800 range?
There are 12 cars between 1750 and 1850.
Quote from: gt350hr on September 14, 2018, 11:30:55 AM
Dave that is consistent with my notes. ( I never took pictures back then) 6S1514 had "one with and one without" , so we changed it in the '70's. I changed at least ten other GT350s that didn't have the washers. Back then I figured it was because the cars had Autolite shocks not Konis and Ford(or SAI) didn't feel they were necessary any longer. I used the same FE rocker stand washer , notched , and mig welded like Ford did.
Randy
Thanks Randy, I did not have 6S1514 on my list, I do now!
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 14, 2018, 08:21:49 PM
How many do you have with washers from the same 300 car spread?
Jeff, I have not documented cars with washers, all I can say is definitely more in that grouping do not have them in my observations.
Quote from: s2ms on September 15, 2018, 12:28:21 AM
Quote from: 6s1802 on September 14, 2018, 12:05:04 AM
How many in the late 1700 early 1800 range?
There are 12 cars between 1750 and 1850.
Quote from: gt350hr on September 14, 2018, 11:30:55 AM
Dave that is consistent with my notes. ( I never took pictures back then) 6S1514 had "one with and one without" , so we changed it in the '70's. I changed at least ten other GT350s that didn't have the washers. Back then I figured it was because the cars had Autolite shocks not Konis and Ford(or SAI) didn't feel they were necessary any longer. I used the same FE rocker stand washer , notched , and mig welded like Ford did.
Randy
Thanks Randy, I did not have 6S1514 on my list, I do now!
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 14, 2018, 08:21:49 PM
How many do you have with washers from the same 300 car spread?
Jeff, I have not documented cars with washers, all I can say is definitely more in that grouping do not have them in my observations.
That's a shame that so many are missing the complete Shelby DNA sequence. ;)
Somehow I knew that was coming... ;)
Quote from: s2ms on September 15, 2018, 12:40:02 AM
Somehow I knew that was coming... ;)
I'm doing it also ;) Got to the 2000's today. (12,000 pictures so far)
Will be interesting to see what we both come up with
Quote from: s2ms on September 15, 2018, 12:40:02 AM
Somehow I knew that was coming... ;)
I didn't want to leave you hanging waiting for the other shoe to drop. Only meant in fun :D
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 15, 2018, 12:52:30 AM
I didn't want to leave you hanging waiting for the other shoe to drop. Only meant in fun :D
Thanks, figured the other shoe was close behind! :D
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 15, 2018, 12:47:44 AM
I'm doing it also ;) Got to the 2000's today. (12,000 pictures so far)
Will be interesting to see what we both come up with
Yes, hopefully we can come up with something more detailed on this subject, sent you a PM...
sorry to be posting on such an old thread but I'm sure someone is wanting this information to document on my recent purchase. 6S2227 has washers on LH side and none on RH side (on beehive shock mount). I purchased my car from the same owner since 1972 and he stated he never removed them. My car has been sitting in a garage unmolested since 1988ish. Equipped with vintage old Koni's but they are a HD weird size, they don't look consistent with koni of the day.
I've seen this before on GT-350's - one with & one without. I looked at a red 1966 GT-350 from Orlando mustang for possible purchase a few years ago and it was just like mine.
I can provide pics of my beehives if someone needs for documentation? I'm new to the forum so if I've violated forum protocol by posting to such old thread let me know. Im new to SAAC and enjoying reading all posting on 1966 \65 GT-350's.
You really can't go by anything other than original owners. A lot can happen in 7 years . If you put Konis on any Mustang you need to make changes to keep the upper mounts from getting ruined . Virtually every GT350 Ive worked on in the last 40 years that came in with Konis or Ford shocks and didn't use the longer bolts to account for the welded washer had stripped out holes and needed to be replaced .
6S550 Has the washers, and had them when I bought it in 1967, Ron
6S281 has the washers and the original correct long bolts. i'm positive they are original to the car, I remember them from 1972 when it was purchased from the original owner.
There are some GT350's that got short changed by mistake from the factory and did not get the reinforced upper shock brackets. There are many more that got their upper brackets replaced since new with non reinforced ones to replace stripped out threads . It is hard to say for sure at this late date which are which. The only certainty is what we know was supposed to be engineered to be on the cars. In concours the cars are expected to have the reinforced brackets unless some reasonable proof is provided that they came with the mistake from the factory.
It's been about 5 years since I have been on the forum..could not figure out why I had to register again and I remember when this topic came up so for history sake 6s1902 has been in the family since 68 and it did not have the washers and came with the ford adjustable blue shocks that we have on a shelf restored. As Bob stated, we put the washers on and konis on as that is whats expected ..it was a tough sell to get my father to do it but hey we got an extra pair without the washers and the original correct shocks for the next owner..by the way we are preparing to sell her. Her rotisery restoration is done and she is a beauty literally a nut and bolt restoration.
A number of years ago, someone noticed the striking similarity between the washers used to reinforce the shock towers and the washers used on the FE rocker arm shafts... It was a great save.
Quote from: Jbarela on March 14, 2019, 11:17:17 PM
It's been about 5 years since I have been on the forum..could not figure out why I had to register again and I remember when this topic came up so for history sake 6s1902 has been in the family since 68 and it did not have the washers and came with the ford adjustable blue shocks that we have on a shelf restored. As Bob stated, we put the washers on and konis on as that is whats expected ..it was a tough sell to get my father to do it but hey we got an extra pair without the washers and the original correct shocks for the next owner..by the way we are preparing to sell her. Her rotisery restoration is done and she is a beauty literally a nut and bolt restoration.
How about some photos? 8)
Quote from: Jbarela on March 14, 2019, 11:17:17 PM
It's been about 5 years since I have been on the forum..could not figure out why I had to register again and I remember when this topic came up so for history sake 6s1902 has been in the family since 68 and it did not have the washers and came with the ford adjustable blue shocks that we have on a shelf restored. As Bob stated, we put the washers on and konis on as that is whats expected ..it was a tough sell to get my father to do it but hey we got an extra pair without the washers and the original correct shocks for the next owner..by the way we are preparing to sell her. Her rotisery restoration is done and she is a beauty literally a nut and bolt restoration.
Maybe you misinterpreted some information because Koni shocks are only expected on cars around or below SA VIN 900 . On your car SA VIN 1902 Ford adjustable shocks painted the lighter Ford engine blue (very late production would be black) is what would be expected.
I thought I would mention that putting Konis shocks on any year Shelby is probably the most common modification. With that said many cars had the koni shocks installed without regard to the longer wider head bolt needed that was typically used on factory Koni equipped cars. Without the use of the proper bolts can and has resulted in pulled out or stripped threads in the upper shock bracket. The easiest fix for a stripped out upper shock bracket with the washers is to replace it with a common regular Mustang version without washers. I am not saying this is what happened in every case since we have substantiated evidence that some cars were given the upper brackets without the reinforcement by mistake at the factory (for whatever reason). This repair replacement scenario because of Koni's is certainly a viable explanation for many cars that now don't have the factory engineered reinforced brackets.
Bob- I was always under the impression these shock tower mounts w\washers were installed at SA but after reading your post it looks like ford did it in San Jose for cars being sent to SA for their GT-350 conversion. Is this correct? Been a long week, I might be interpreting your message incorrectly. On a side note - is there any vintage video or YouTube video available to watch which displays the cars being built at SA in 1965 or 66? I've seen pictures but video would be cool to watch too. thank you for your time, Fred
Quote from: rraceme on March 15, 2019, 02:06:34 PM
Bob- I was always under the impression these shock tower mounts w\washers were installed at SA but after reading your post it looks like ford did it in San Jose for cars being sent to SA for their GT-350 conversion. Is this correct?
Like the export brace and firewall support bracket, the front shock mount (beehive) modification was part of the Export Mustang modifications and parts typically installed on export Mustangs and what was part of the Shelby build process in 66
I'm not aware of any films taken during the 66 production year at Shelby. There are a few videos I've seen but they were assembled from photos and adding a little background music
Just wasn't important to document back in the day and cost money and lots of time.
Different time - different focus and priorities ;)
In general businesses didn't car or want to share how things were done for many reasons
J_Speegle - Thanks for the response. yes I'm familiar with the mustang T5 program and previously thought only the export brace was the only suspension upgrade for mustangs being exported. Thanks for sharing that bird cage fact nugget. So was the evenly spaced holes for the export brace part of the T5 program or was that a unique to GT-350's? Were all 65 - 66 GT-350's equipped with the evenly spaced brace? Incredible information found on this forum- Fred
Quote from: rraceme on March 15, 2019, 07:06:02 PM
J_Speegle - Thanks for the response. yes I'm familiar with the mustang T5 program and previously thought only the export brace was the only suspension upgrade for mustangs being exported.
You had the export brace, firewall bracket, shock front upper mounts and for approx mid 66 production on the adjustable shocks
Quote from: rraceme on March 15, 2019, 07:06:02 PMThanks for sharing that bird cage fact nugget. So was the evenly spaced holes for the export brace part of the T5 program or was that a unique to GT-350's?
Share with both. Made it cheaper and easier for Shelby to use something that was already being made and supplied for some Mustangs
Quote from: rraceme on March 15, 2019, 07:06:02 PMWere all 65 - 66 GT-350's equipped with the evenly spaced brace?
Yes that was the design at the time from production export and Shelbys
2nd owner of 6S290 since 1967. Konis but no washers either side.
Thank you for that correction bob..my memory on this subject has faltered. Sorry for that.
Just so I understand this correctly. The export brace, firewall brace, washer modified bird cage, over sized head bolts for koni's and adjustable Koni shocks were install at San Jose prior to SA? I loaded a couple pics of a shock and bird cage off my 2227 car. The koni shock dated 7\66. (if you can see it). My shocks were installed after SA conversion? yes? dealer or individual installed? Someone wrote previously on this thread Konis were a very popular upgrade. Is this the correct koni shock installed on GT-350's? thank you, Fred
koni
Quote from: rraceme on March 17, 2019, 09:28:53 AM
Just so I understand this correctly. The export brace, firewall brace, washer modified bird cage, over sized head bolts for koni's and adjustable Koni shocks were install at San Jose prior to SA? I loaded a couple pics of a shock and bird cage off my 2227 car. The koni shock dated 7\66. (if you can see it). My shocks were installed after SA conversion? yes? dealer or individual installed? Someone wrote previously on this thread Konis were a very popular upgrade. Is this the correct koni shock installed on GT-350's? thank you, Fred
Logistically a 7/66 dated Koni shock would not be for a 66 GT350 installation at SA. Made at Koni in July of 66 and then shipped overseas to the United States before being stocked at Ford ,then being re box in a Ford box before being distributed to dealer requesting the shocks . The shocks were not automatically sent to Shelby stocking dealers . It was up to dealers to order stock according to Shelby dealer parts managers I have talked to. A lot of time would have passed relatively speaking before a 7/66 shock made it to a dealer. The Koni's were eliminated for cost cutting reasons much earlier in production . For instance they were eliminated around approximately SA VIN # 900 or so. I am not around my registry at the moment to give a good guesstimate on what month in early 66 that might be. A 7/66 dated Koni shock could have possibly been added by a dealer or previous owner after 66 production had ceased. However with all that said a 7/66 dated shock would be exactly the same as what was installed at SA during 66 production just with a later date code. It is a great period replacement. I believe the Koni shocks were installed at SA . It was the Ford adjustable shocks that were installed at Ford. One of the SA memos talked about getting Ford to delete the Mustang shocks because since the cars were tightened down on the transport that the shocks were not necessary when being delivered to SA . Prior to that apparently SA had to remove the Ford shocks prior to installing the Koni's.