SAAC Forum

The Cars => Replicas and Tribute => Topic started by: mygt350 on February 12, 2019, 07:42:22 PM

Title: Cam Suggestions
Post by: mygt350 on February 12, 2019, 07:42:22 PM
Am having a 302 stroker (331) built for my sons 65 A-code and am searching for your suggestions as to which cam I should look hard at. Engine is a forged piston 10.5:1 compression, H beam rods, forged crank, AFR 205 heads to be fitted to a C4 3-speed automatic. Rear gears are 3.50:1 posi. Ignition will be MSD with EFI fuel delivery. Most likely Atomic EFI unit.  Want a hydraulic roller cam with lot of lower RPM torque with power thru 5500-6000.
Looking for suggestions as to lift, duration, overlap, LSA. Appreciate your thoughts. One suggestion I have received is a 218/228 .544/.544 112 LSA. Want one that shakes the ground at idle but screams. Remember, its an automatic.
Thanks
Martin
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: shelbydoug on February 12, 2019, 08:08:10 PM
http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=31-334-4&Category_Code=SBFMFTCMM

Compcams 282s. You don't need that much head. The AFR 185 # 1388 is plenty. the 205 is if you are going over 600 lift and to 7500rpm. That's impractical for a street Windsor.

Solid lifter. Similar to a souped up hi-po cam. You can go to 1.7 rockers and get around .550 lift.

Looks like you are contradicting yourself with selected components. 3.50 rear won't do much.

You could go auto OD instead of C4 with maybe 4.33 or so gears. Then the 205 heads start to make sense but this isn't a Tournament of Roses Parade car.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: mygt350 on February 12, 2019, 08:19:56 PM
Isn't the 282S a flat tappet cam?
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: shelbydoug on February 12, 2019, 08:21:56 PM
Isn't the 282S a flat tappet cam?

Sure is. Solid lifter.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: mygt350 on February 12, 2019, 08:37:58 PM
Already have the 205's with roller lifter springs. Also have 1:6 roller rockers and hydraulic roller lifters. Probably got horse bit before cart, but that's why I am searching for a hydraulic roller cam. I do have a better 3rd member that may find its way into the car.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: Jcole65GT on February 12, 2019, 10:55:25 PM
The Comp 35-514 in my 331 with AFR Renegade 165 heads made 434 HP @ 6000 and 452 lb/ft torque @4200. Smooth idle and good fuel mileage. 3.50 gears in 65 Mustang and stick.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: 1967 eight barrel on February 13, 2019, 12:21:25 AM
Just out of curiousity, how old is your son?
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: shelbydoug on February 13, 2019, 07:43:39 AM
Already have the 205's with roller lifter springs. Also have 1:6 roller rockers and hydraulic roller lifters. Probably got horse bit before cart, but that's why I am searching for a hydraulic roller cam. I do have a better 3rd member that may find its way into the car.

It's a great head and it won't hurt you but it does use raised exhaust location. It's raised 1/4". It doesn't sound like much but that engine compartment is very tight for headers. That 1/4" is going to require a good ball peen hammer use on those headers. Don't get the headers pre-coated. Fit them first, then send them out for coating.

The AFR 1388's are the biggest set before they raise the exhausts. From the 195's up, the exhausts are raised.

Mine is a 347. When I looked at flow numbers, corresponding cam profiles and intended use, I went 185's. One of the magazine reviews called them "street/strip heads". Above that, "race heads".

The 1388's flow 297 at .550 lift. That's better then stock  Boss 302 heads.

You will want bigger tubes with the header primaries also. 1-3/4" JBA's or Hooker Super Comps. The Hookers hang down. The JBA's don't. The JBA's are very close to the Pitman arm but fit well other then that. They tuck up high.

On a convertible there is a steel plate bolted across the bottom of the drive shaft tunnel. That is a consideration for header choice. The JBA's will clear. I'm not sure the Hookers will?

Incidentally, that Compcams roller profile,  35-514 is intended for Ford Roller Lifter blocks. Which block are you using?

Here's the problem with cam recommendations. The performance results now are highly predictable. How the owner feels about it is unpredictable. What is mild to one, is radical to someone else.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: Brent on February 13, 2019, 06:54:33 PM
Why not spend a bit more and have a cam custom ground? Especially since you already have the valvetrain, you can have a cam ground based on the lift limit of your springs and the rest of the specs built for your planned use.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: madeulook on February 13, 2019, 09:20:59 PM
I have most recently moved to the 4 pattern Comp Cams Nascar camshaft rated for 7200 rpm. It's hydraulic. In addition, I changed to a 351 firing order.

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CC&Category_Code=4PHRSBF

Get the new micro polish option.

I theory the cam duration evens out the air charge to each cylinder. Long runners vs. shorter runners.

Steel distributor gear.

Probably the most important part of the build is the cam.

Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: 1967 eight barrel on April 08, 2019, 01:53:44 AM
No one has a cam cut around the max compression of the springs, but the cam requirements. The springs are chosen to work with the cam.  You're not going to be turning 7200 rpm on the street and you're going to lose all your bottom end with cam designed for that rpm range.
                                                                     -Keith
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: Brent on April 08, 2019, 01:57:38 AM
No one has a cam cut around the max compression of the springs, but the cam requirements. The springs are chosen to work with the cam.  You're not going to be turning 7200 rpm on the street and you're going to lose all your bottom end with cam designed for that rpm range.
                                                                     -Keith

You can if you already have the springs and don't want to change them, within reason. Not saying this is the best solution but I've done it in the past and it's worked well. Additionally, this is the exact case the OP is in.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: 1967 eight barrel on April 08, 2019, 02:30:24 AM
Half-ass never ends well.  You can't just pick a cam. I've built enough engines to know. The manufacturer specifies a spring rate and height for a reason. I also had to order custom pushrods on several builds.  So a length checker is also required.  At the end of day the OP is being given misinformation that could wind up destroying the engine. He won't know if he has adequate valve to piston clearances either.
Obviously he's not working on a Shelby. So he might want to try the Vintage Mustang Forum. Most of us won't cut up a Shelby for things like fuel injection.
                                                                               -Keith
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: Brent on April 08, 2019, 02:39:21 AM
I never suggested the OP should randomly choose a cam that doesn't match his springs. I don't consider having a custom ground cam made that is optimized to your usage, but doesn't exceed your springs' specs, as half-assing it. Anytime you assemble an engine you obviously should check pushrod length and PtoV clearance; these are easy to check and the required tools cheap to acquire. 
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: shelbydoug on April 08, 2019, 07:59:14 AM
You match the springs to the cam. Not the opposite.

I'd expect that on a street driven car with an C4 automatic the cam selection is going to be milder just for the necessity of living with an automatic.

That probably means selecting one that will idle at around 800 rpm and give 15 inches of vacuum.
Right there, that is somewhat of a mismatch with those heads.

It would be a very good idea to run that by a cam grinder and consider a custom cut hydraulic roller. I don't see anything off the shelf that matches the outline.

There are pluses and minuses to those heads. A plus is that you don't need a lot of lift and if you wind up with something around .550 you are about as good as you will get.


Have you thought about using the c-4 overdrive transmission from the mid 70's like in the Granada? That would give you a 4 speed automatic and can help you out with gearing and thus cam selection?
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: gt350hr on April 08, 2019, 11:36:02 AM
  Ford Racing E303 or Crane 2020. Great for a 331 auto. AFR 205s are TOO big in this case , I have to agree with Doug. But since you already have them , a short duration , fast action,  hydraulic roller  will get back the lower end performance. Advance it 4 degrees too ( or at least check to see that it is 4*s advanced when installed). No real need for a custom cam in a street application.
   Randy
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: mygt350 on April 08, 2019, 01:54:12 PM
I went with the AFR 185 heads and the Comp Cams XE274HR. Checked with Comp Cams who said the XE274HR has 4 degrees advance built in so no need to do anything at crank sprocket. All forged rotating assembly with H-beam rods. Originally was a 347 but I decided to go with the 331  instead. Pistons have valve reliefs and should give me close to 10.4:1 compression.
Martin
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: FL SAAC TONY on April 08, 2019, 02:27:19 PM
+ 1

You match the springs to the cam. Not the opposite.

I'd expect that on a street driven car with an C4 automatic the cam selection is going to be milder just for the necessity of living with an automatic.

That probably means selecting one that will idle at around 800 rpm and give 15 inches of vacuum.
Right there, that is somewhat of a mismatch with those heads.

It would be a very good idea to run that by a cam grinder and consider a custom cut hydraulic roller. I don't see anything off the shelf that matches the outline.

There are pluses and minuses to those heads. A plus is that you don't need a lot of lift and if you wind up with something around .550 you are about as good as you will get.


Have you thought about using the c-4 overdrive transmission from the mid 70's like in the Granada? That would give you a 4 speed automatic and can help you out with gearing and thus cam selection?
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: 1967 eight barrel on April 09, 2019, 05:11:09 PM
You may not want 4 degrees advanced. You only run the advance when the cam is retarded 4 degrees, which many manufacturers used to incorporate in their design. You should have it degreed if you don't have the tools and knowledge to do it yourself.
My custom grind was ground with no retard. Skipping these kind of things is why people wind up tearing down engines a half dozen times.
I also bought the billet roller timing chain keyed for different timing.
Don't do it half-assed. You're not going to be happy in the end.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: gt350hr on April 10, 2019, 10:45:25 AM
  Running a cam in the advanced position is common when the cylinder head is bigger than what is needed or the cam is a little too long on duration. Early intake valve opening lowers the torque curve a bit and improves bottom end performance. It is a rare occasion when it doesn't help. "Ideal" cam timing ( one that is "most powerful" without advance or retard) takes allot of testing to achieve. In my 50+ years of racing and performance engine building , "I" have only seen it a couple of times. If a cam runs better retarded , it is too short on duration and later opening at faster piston velocity helps fill the cylinder better with the lesser timing.

       Randy
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: 1967 eight barrel on April 10, 2019, 06:10:39 PM
Randy, you and I both know many cams are ground with a 4 degree retard. This is why I never trust a cam out of the box. Someone like you taught me how to degree and to check specs. I used an excellent grinder who does them in-house. However, Chinese manufactured junk doesn't help the issue.
                                                                                     -Keith
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: shelbydoug on April 10, 2019, 07:11:44 PM
Most of the cam grinders I've seen state the timing events of their cams. I don't see any with retarded timing built into the cam. Compcams for instance, lists every Ford cam with a built in 4 degree advance.

Ford installed some production cams in the early '70s with retarding built into some of the cams. It depends on the application. One that I can think of is the '72 351c CJ.

Some cam manufacturers are making "vintage muscle cams" and IF someone made a '72 351c CJ cam, I would want to see the specs on the cam first.

I would think that a cam purchaser is an educated consumer and as such considers the timing events on the camshaft he is buying? You just don't walk into a gun shop and say "give me a gun" do you?
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: 1967 eight barrel on April 10, 2019, 08:00:35 PM
Sadly, some do. They know nothing about the events listed in the cam sheet. They look at lift and duration.  Little else. Despite this, you should ALWAYS check the cam against the sheet.
                                                              -Keith
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: pbf777 on April 10, 2019, 08:06:46 PM

 You just don't walk into a gun shop and say "give me a gun" do you?

     I think today this would fall under poor etiquette, and a less than recommended practice; and if you did, I would assume one is pointed at you!     :o

     Scott.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: 1967 eight barrel on April 10, 2019, 08:09:06 PM
So the word "gun" is offensive now? Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.  If gun bothers you I'd suggest you ask your significant other to return your testicles from said place of safe keeping.
                                                                             -Keith
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: FL SAAC TONY on April 10, 2019, 08:14:01 PM
So the word "gun" is offensive now? Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.  If gun bothers you I'd suggest you ask your significant other to return your testicles from said place of safe keeping.
                                                                             -Keith


lmao that's funny, carry on with the topic at hand
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: mygt350 on April 10, 2019, 08:22:05 PM
Keith
Almost fell out of my chair. Hysterically funny. I do appreciate all the information about cam selection. Please, everyone, check the Politics at the door. Its about the cars. But, when I do walk into a gun store, I tell the clerk I need a gun and I add it to the collection. Sorry, not politically correct.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: FL SAAC TONY on April 10, 2019, 08:26:06 PM
Please, everyone, check the Politics at the door. Its about the cars. But, when I do walk into a gun store, I tell the clerk I need a gun and I add it to the collection. Sorry, not politically correct.

+ 1
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: 1967 eight barrel on April 10, 2019, 08:49:52 PM
Well, not to get too off thread. I served almost eight years as an infantry officer, two actions Grenada and Panama and eight years active as a CHP, retired with tweleve and a half years post 18 surgeries that was necessitated by a drunk illegal with two prior drunk driving convictions.
I know legal gun ownership with 400,000,000 firearms in hands like mine aren't the problem. I own weapons from about 1700-current. I got put through the ringer for a Federal license to own an original FBI Thompson Sub Machine Gun. They harm no one. I love to target shoot, but I don't even hunt.  I am a historian.
It's pathetic when people are so weak-minded that they blame a tool for the criminal actions of humans. Humans will always find a tool to do their bidding if that is their intent. Classifying a murder as hate crime is ridiculous. People don't kill you because they like you and it doesn't change the crime. It's still murder.
This country makes me sick and it spits right in my face for paying my debt of gratitude for having opportunities like no other nation has.
I saw socialism first hand, and these liberal idiots and longing for it. I did what I did for nothing.

                                                                     -Keith
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: shelbydoug on April 11, 2019, 07:26:15 AM
Well, not to get too off thread. I served almost eight years as an infantry officer, two actions Grenada and Panama and eight years active as a CHP, retired with tweleve and a half years post 18 surgeries that was necessitated by a drunk illegal with two prior drunk driving convictions.
I know legal gun ownership with 400,000,000 firearms in hands like mine aren't the problem. I own weapons from about 1700-current. I got put through the ringer for a Federal license to own an original FBI Thompson Sub Machine Gun. They harm no one. I love to target shoot, but I don't even hunt.  I am a historian.
It's pathetic when people are so weak-minded that they blame a tool for the criminal actions of humans. Humans will always find a tool to do their bidding if that is their intent. Classifying a murder as hate crime is ridiculous. People don't kill you because they like you and it doesn't change the crime. It's still murder.
This country makes me sick and it spits right in my face for paying my debt of gratitude for having opportunities like no other nation has.
I saw socialism first hand, and these liberal idiots and longing for it. I did what I did for nothing.

                                                                     -Keith

Well I agree with you that guns are not the problem. Just like a high performance car, responsible use of them is expected.

I understand how being catagorized is offensive. I get catgorized all the time, then rated within that catagory. I don't care for that etither.

My point was, I was reaching out to you since I know you are an enthusiast of both firearms and high performance cars, that even though there is no requirement for knowledge of the use of the product required, it would be an awfully good idea to have more than just a little.

Just like firearms, there are basic camshafts and then there are highly specialized ones and probably everything in between.

Just like firearms, there are circles with camshafts where one can learn much from others highly experienced with them. From that comes understanding and from that comes respect.

The technology involved in both comes to be appreciated and it helps one understand both the tools limitations and the personal human limitations.

Ignorance creates the fear. Knowledge creates the respect.

I got over my ignorance of firearms at around 2 and am still working at getting over my ignorance of camshafts although I haven't needed an M15 or Laws rockets in over 40 years, I still need camshafts on occasion? I don't need my K-bar for camping anymore either. All former tools now considered obsolete (by me) and you know what? I don't miss them either?  ;)

Just my personal perspective and my way of reaching out.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: gt350hr on April 11, 2019, 11:18:38 AM
   Back to topic please.
       The first retarded ( as ground) cam I came across was the Boss 302 factory cam .After I found that one , I degreed every cam I've run. "Most" are off from the numbers on the cam card. Just aligning the dots could be leaving allot on the table.  Besides my own testing , I spent a few years ( 40+ years ago) working for a major camshaft manufacturer which taught me allot and opened my eyes on the whole industry. Things like who actually made what and exact same parts with different part numbers from different cam companies that all came from one separate supplier. Yes evolution has raised the bar but many things are still the same.
     The proper camshaft and it's timing can make or break the performance of an engine Do your homework before you buy .
   Randy
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: shelbydoug on April 11, 2019, 12:48:29 PM
   Back to topic please.
       The first retarded ( as ground) cam I came across was the Boss 302 factory cam .After I found that one , I degreed every cam I've run. "Most" are off from the numbers on the cam card. Just aligning the dots could be leaving allot on the table.  Besides my own testing , I spent a few years ( 40+ years ago) working for a major camshaft manufacturer which taught me allot and opened my eyes on the whole industry. Things like who actually made what and exact same parts with different part numbers from different cam companies that all came from one separate supplier. Yes evolution has raised the bar but many things are still the same.
     The proper camshaft and it's timing can make or break the performance of an engine Do your homework before you buy .
   Randy

How much was it off?
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: gt350hr on April 12, 2019, 11:36:50 AM
 A "factory" produced Boss 302 cam has 4*s retard ground into it. I checked a '69 and more than one '70 in trying to see if it was a "fluke" or not. In later years I saw the blueprint with the timing event call outs that show a 4* retard. Ford did this on other engines as well for emissions purposes.
   Randy
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: Cobrask8 on April 12, 2019, 11:52:32 AM
Back to the original post, I have a similar motor in my FFR. 3.55's with a 5-speed. Without a doubt, the motor will be a high-RPM motor, and the suggestions for more gear and an AOD are right. I used a Howards Cam, and the HP figures at the crank close in on 440. Also tough to get a carb just right. I ended up with FI. On the track and limnited street, once the came "comes in", it's definitely "Hang ON" time!

Ask lots of questions, compare cams. I eventually made up a spreadsheet comparing the different cams, so i could compare the specs, and produced HP when I could verify. (I can e-mail if you want it)

I started with a seasoned 68 302 block, SCAT 331kit and 10.0 CR. Torker II open plenum. Went with a Quality Link-bar roller lifter conversion, sayed with 1.6 rockers to be safe. Make sure it is put together right! Also, a nice hot spark really helps.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: shelbydoug on April 12, 2019, 01:56:17 PM
A "factory" produced Boss 302 cam has 4*s retard ground into it. I checked a '69 and more than one '70 in trying to see if it was a "fluke" or not. In later years I saw the blueprint with the timing event call outs that show a 4* retard. Ford did this on other engines as well for emissions purposes.
   Randy

I knew this about the Clevelands but not the Boss 302. I'm not surprised though. So far on aftermarket cams I've used Crower, Ford Motorsport, Crane and CompCams. They were all right on.

I've had a couple of issues with quality on aftermarket, but not timing issues.

You need to check every component piece by piece. Everyone is a novice at first, but that doesn't last long. Experience counts a lot and you can't worry about making mistakes. You learn more from mistakes then not making any. Frankly, once you screw up, you will never do that again and certainly will never forget it either.

The problem with selecting cams is that although the results are now all highly predictable, how the new owner feels about them is not. One person will consider one cam radical and another as ok.
Title: Re: Cam Suggestions
Post by: s2ms on April 12, 2019, 10:45:34 PM
When I had the 347 built for my 66 in 2000 the engine builder asked if I wanted to make the cam selection.  I said "sure", then realized I didn't really know squat about cam details. I had copy of Mr. Gasket Desktop Dyno software on my computer I used more like a video game so had a chance to put it to good use. Must have run 100 or so cam simulations based as close as possible on the other engines specs the builder gave. I decided on a Lunati grind which worked out really well. The actual dyno numbers were almost spot on with the simulation so was pretty happy with the results.