SAAC Forum

The Cars => 1965 GT350/R-Model => Topic started by: texas swede on February 10, 2018, 06:20:55 PM

Title: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: texas swede on February 10, 2018, 06:20:55 PM
Any of you guys know which material the original crimps were made of, aluminum, copper or
bronze? I believe the reproductions are made of aluminum.
Texas Swede
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: Bob Gaines on February 10, 2018, 06:27:58 PM
Any of you guys know which material the original crimps were made of, aluminum, copper or
bronze? I believe the reproductions are made of aluminum.
Texas Swede
They were aluminum.They are not technically reproductions. It is used on garage door cable today in the same way it was used on garage door cable over 50 years ago.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: TLea on February 10, 2018, 06:42:46 PM
Can get them at Home Depot, Lowes etc
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: texas swede on February 10, 2018, 06:54:39 PM
Thanks guys,
A friend of mine asked as he is fixing up his car and the ones he removed were in copper
but the ones he bought are aluminum.
Texas Swede
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: alexgt350h on February 10, 2018, 06:57:48 PM
Anyone know the approx. length? And dia. of cable?
Brent
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: march66 on February 10, 2018, 08:00:27 PM
This topic is interesting. I've have wondered about this question for some time.  My original cables from 6S299 while dirty and appearing to be aluminum, were actually copper cable crimps. Still have the evidence of my findings.  Bought replacements cable and copper crimps...still haven't installed them. 

Gary C. Bergman
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: GT350Lad on February 10, 2018, 08:22:51 PM
Hi Gary, have you got any pics of the copper cable crimps? Mine are aluminium
Cheers
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: march66 on February 10, 2018, 09:47:02 PM
Yes, I will try to take and send a photo of my evidence.

Gary C. Bergman
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: Bob Gaines on February 10, 2018, 10:37:18 PM
This topic is interesting. I've have wondered about this question for some time.  My original cables from 6S299 while dirty and appearing to be aluminum, were actually copper cable crimps. Still have the evidence of my findings.  Bought replacements cable and copper crimps...still haven't installed them. 

Gary C. Bergman
I will be interested in seeing the evidence that will be compelling enough to suggest copper was also used and not a previous replacement . Even if evidence suggest that copper was a type used at SA it would be more the exception then the rule. The overwhelming majority were of the aluminum variety base on many different knowledgeable individuals observations .
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: J_Speegle on February 11, 2018, 01:20:42 AM
Never seen them made from copper either on an original car. Got a picture?
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: march66 on February 11, 2018, 01:04:44 PM
Greetings....Here are photos of what I saved from the original axle limiting cable of 6S299. 

In one image you see the dirty crimper and what appears aluminum.  In the other photos it shows that it is actually copper.

This discovery (few years ago) was to my surprise as I always assumed they were aluminum.  I bought new cables from Shelby Parts & Restoration, probably in 1999 and never installed them, and they included aluminum crimpers.

My apologies if the photos do not attach.  I'm not confident with my use of tech things. 

Gary C. Bergman
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: march66 on February 11, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Greetings....Here are photos of what I saved from the original axle limiting cable of 6S299. 

In one image you see the dirty crimper and what appears aluminum.  In the other photos it shows that it is actually copper.

This discovery (few years ago) was to my surprise as I always assumed they were aluminum.  I bought new cables from Shelby Parts & Restoration, probably in 1999 and never installed them, and they included aluminum crimpers.

My apologies if the photos do not attach.  I'm not confident with my use of tech things. 

Gary C. Bergman
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: Bob Gaines on February 11, 2018, 01:21:33 PM
Unusual part. I typically see a double crimp done to secure the aluminum ones also. It takes a special tool. Without knowing the surrounding conditions(visual evidence and not word of mouth) it was taken from and what with just the picture of the part in question it is hard to say. Unfortunately it has been taken out of context of it's surrounding that may have provided support to ether conclusion.  It is hard to give the benefit of the doubt given it is out of the ordinary compared to so many different individual observations. I am still skeptical that the pictured piece is original to your car  but who really knows now. Thanks for the interesting pictures.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: J_Speegle on February 11, 2018, 04:59:28 PM
Thanks for providing a VIN 6S299 since that will allow us and you to focus on other cars built around the same time as your at SA. I think we can all agree that they would not have built one car with different crimps and it they used ones like you have there would be dozens or more likely 100+ cars just like yours
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: march66 on February 11, 2018, 06:04:33 PM
Thanks all, just offering a contribution to what I found on 6S299 back in 1999.  Enjoy following along with details about the early cars and the knowledge Bob Gaines and Jeff Speegle provide. 

I would expand more but forum or my computer slowness makes it difficult.

Gary C. Bergman
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: andric on February 12, 2018, 12:11:14 AM
I contacted Bo about my cable that started this thread. My car is 5S256. I will try to attach some pictures of the cable I took off my car almost 40 years ago. The cable is 301/2 inches long and is 1/8 inches in diameter. The ferrule is clearly copper. What is interesting is the ends of the cable are cut at an angle and soldered. Makes it a lot easier to install in the ferrule. You can see at the top of the cable is bent from going through the eye bolt and the bottom of the cable is curved from going around the axle. Also, the washer is smaller than the reproduction cable kit. Rick
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: texas swede on February 12, 2018, 08:14:04 AM
Hi Rick,
You beat me to posting the pictures. Yesterday, I couldn't access the Forum.
A very interesting topic in my opinion.
Texas Swede
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: gt350hr on February 12, 2018, 10:45:20 AM
  6S477 still has it's original cables.  I'll try and get a look at what they are .  Can be inspected at SAAC 43.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: Bob Gaines on February 12, 2018, 11:57:11 AM
The crimp on that locking sleeve is double crimped like I am used to seeing them . The single crimp on the previous posters picture is out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: GT350Lad on February 13, 2018, 10:51:20 PM
Ill have a look when my car comes back from painters and Ill check with Karl who owns 281

Cheers
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: Bob Gaines on February 14, 2018, 12:00:16 AM
I would also be interested in pictures of how a presumed original limiting cable is found in to help confirm genuine SA or not.  How it is looped is just as important the crimped sleeve to determine genuine or not . For instance the picture of the cut wire and crimped sleeve is interesting but that by itself makes it more difficult not knowing the context of how it was found. The single crimp is unusual which makes me skeptical. How it was looped or how it was not looped helps establish what is genuine and what is not. A picture of the limiting cables taken from underneath which includes the top and the bottom of the cable on a car that is at rest tells the tale IMO. I wonder if the copper crimp sleeves were always copper color or if plated some other finish. That might help explain how another variety could be mixed in without standing out. 
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: GT350AUS on February 14, 2018, 09:08:10 AM
Just checked mine 6s705 has aluminium crimps
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: CharlesTurner on February 14, 2018, 10:56:57 AM
I was also thinking if they were copper, they probably had a zinc coating.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: andric on February 14, 2018, 11:08:24 AM
Bob,    In your comment "is found in" my reply would be that you only have my word that I took it off my car. I don't have a picture of the cable when it was on the car. As far as how it was looped you can see in the deformity of the cable that one end of the cable had passed through the eyebolt attached to the body and the other end went around the axle. As far as the copper sleeve, it is clearly coper and doesn't appear to be plated.   I can't claim that the coper sleeve is original because I haven't owned the car from new. Maybe the originals broke and someone replaced the original cables and used copper sleeve. To me that is highly unlikely. I bought my car in March of 1980 and the car would have been 15 years old. The cables condition indicates to me that it would be about 15 years old which could make it original to the car. I just finished restoration of my car after 38 years and I am putting new cables on the car. I intend to use copper ferrules and will keep the old one to show anyone if they question my choice.  Rick
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: Bob Gaines on February 14, 2018, 11:49:58 AM
Bob,    In your comment "is found in" my reply would be that you only have my word that I took it off my car. I don't have a picture of the cable when it was on the car. As far as how it was looped you can see in the deformity of the cable that one end of the cable had passed through the eyebolt attached to the body and the other end went around the axle. As far as the copper sleeve, it is clearly coper and doesn't appear to be plated.   I can't claim that the coper sleeve is original because I haven't owned the car from new. Maybe the originals broke and someone replaced the original cables and used copper sleeve. To me that is highly unlikely. I bought my car in March of 1980 and the car would have been 15 years old. The cables condition indicates to me that it would be about 15 years old which could make it original to the car. I just finished restoration of my car after 38 years and I am putting new cables on the car. I intend to use copper ferrules and will keep the old one to show anyone if they question my choice.  Rick
Many owners are very protective of their car. It is like talking about their wife or kids. Many owners assume by default that everything on their car is factory original. There are times when they are not. Just because a honorable person thinks something is original on their car doesn't make it automatically so. When something out of the ordinary is discussed it helps others accept it better with additional evidence like pictures etc. instead of just relying on a memory and words.  As I explained in a previous post that the wire with the copper crimped sleeve being removed takes it out of context for helping establish how original it is . That is what I meant. I believe you took it off the car . I believe that you believe it is original to your car . I just need something more to help me believe your point of view in regards to its originality.  I just want to establish the truth what ever that might be. That is not something I take lightly . If it is it is . If it isn't it isn't.  From your comment it seems you don't understand my reference to how it is looped. How it was looped is more then going through the eyelet and around the axle tube as you imply. If that is all you think there is then you don't know what you don't know. If the loop was installed wrong it would mean (for example) that the sleeve was most likely a replacement of some kind . Conversely if it was installed correctly it helps establish ( a replacement could also be installed correctly) the possibility that it may be some kind of alternate part used. We will never know in your case because the part is taken out of context. Do what you think is right for you . I am learning new things about these cars all of the time .  It may be just as you say but don't be upset at me for wanting a little more proof before changing my point of view on the subject  .
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: gt350hr on February 14, 2018, 03:13:14 PM
  Bob's point is well taken by "me". SAI was not FoMoCo.  They didn't order ten thousand cable clamps made to a Ford blueprint like Ford HAD to do.  It was " hey we need some more cable clamps".  That "purchase" might or might not be the EXACT same ones as the last "purchase". There certainly WERE "blueprint manufactured " parts , and there may even be a blueprint on the cable design!  We are talking about 13 to 1400 cars that have them . The chances of variations are as real as the variations among the cars in general. "ONE " guy didn't do them all so there are "personal" variations too. Long term ownership of unmolested cars can provide . Commonality to "ranges" of cars  can be looked at to establish if the were in fact all the same or not. I will try to remember to get pictures of my originals tonight on 6S477 . Then I will take on the challenge of posting them , something a ten year old could do in less than a minute and I could take days!
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: J_Speegle on February 14, 2018, 04:31:39 PM
................ Commonality to "ranges" of cars  can be looked at to establish if the were in fact all the same or not. I will try to remember to get pictures of my originals tonight on 6S477 .

+1 If they did run out of something the worker wasn't sent down the street to buy enough for a single car or even likely a dozen of items. This sub patterns can be documented and the discovery of prior owner changes uncovered


Then I will take on the challenge of posting them , something a ten year old could do in less than a minute and I could take days!

Can always send them over by email and I can host and post  :)
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: andric on February 14, 2018, 05:17:54 PM
6S477 would you look at the ends of your cables. Are they cut diagonally or at an angle. And if they were soldered.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: march66 on February 14, 2018, 06:00:47 PM
I submitted the photos of the axle limiting cable with the single crimp copper ferrule and taken from 6S299.
 
After reading the following discussion and studying my saved cable, it appears the cable ends were soldered or melted together. No cable frays exist.

As said before, I had assumed the ferrule was aluminum until one day I notice what looked like a tinge of copper. Using some steel wool, I confirmed it was indeed copper.

While it is possible the ferrule could have had a protective coating covering the copper, it doesn't appear to be the case. Simply tarnished copper and road debris is what appears to me.

I always assumed the cables were original since I removed them in 1999 and knew the car history from the 70's.  Still, I respect what Bob Gaines says about necessary proof. I saved what I thought was important at the time, removed the cables from the context of things. Now, I can only offer what might contribute to solving a puzzle.

It will interesting to learn more from others.

Gary C. Bergman
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: Bob Gaines on February 15, 2018, 04:11:54 PM
I received some pictures from Randy G. aka gt350hr to post . In the pictures it shows the crimped sleeve on the cable. Randy says it is turning green (which indicates copper). Randy says these have never been off of the housing. The one time he removed the housing , he did so by removing the upper eye bolts from the body he says.  The loop is not in the factory configuration of a figure eight but in a single loop (with the washer always in the middle) . The limiting cables are supposed to be installed in a figure eight at SA. I was hoping to see them in a figure eight to make it more apparent that the copper crimped sleeve was still in a factory configuration. The fact that they are not done that way may be do to when he took them off by unbolting the eyebolt and then when putting the eyebolt back on it twisted in a way allowing the cable to be in a single loop . When I ask Randy about it is says,"I am 100% positive I DID take them out of the figure 8 condition to eliminate  potential binding because of the drag race rear leaves I installed." That explains that.   That is 3 now that had the copper crimped sleeves and it has become more apparent that the copper style is a probable alternate fastener.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: gt350hr on February 15, 2018, 05:50:07 PM
  Thanks for posting the pictures Bob. As I told you I am positive the cables were in the figure 8 configuration and I made "sure" they weren't when I bolted them back in. The figure 8 "may " have been used to better align the cables through the washer used to keep them from interfering with other parts in the neighborhood. Also of note in the pictures are the white frame rails ( original paint too) instead of the salmon color on the underside The area around the gas tank is also white. We can certainly look it over ( or under) at SAAC 43 if you like. Those are the original Konis too. This is one of the odd cars that got a '65 round back axle housing ( like 476 has too.) Wheel cylinders and brake lines have been replaced. Yes those are "shock extensions" as they were "topping out" due to the drag race leaf springs I use. The extensions put them back in their "comfort range". The aluminum bracket ( in the photo of the left side ) is the mount for the SW 240A fuel pump.
   RG
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: GT350Lad on February 16, 2018, 07:17:42 AM
Thanks for posting them Bob and for sharing Randy. Very interesting.
Cheers
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: gt350hr on February 16, 2018, 04:53:29 PM
   I learn too! As much as I "know"  , I never thought the figure 8 was intentional. Now that I do it makes perfect sense! I  will correct it before SAAC 43. Without this thread I would not have known . There is a reason this site is the #1 information source for our cars. Member and expert member interaction .
    RG
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: NC TRACKRAT on February 18, 2018, 12:56:25 PM
Took a look at the Bill of Materials for the R-cars and a "1/4-20 washer 354610-S40" is called out for the axle-limiting cables.  A check with AMK's catalog of Ford part numbers gives the specs as .250" id, .563" OD, .078" thick steel with S40 being Zinc.  In reality, this is not a traditional 1/4-20 washer but a thick version of a 3/16 washer which is nominally .050 thick.  AMK does not list stock on the Ford p/n.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: texas swede on February 19, 2018, 10:45:20 AM
Hi Randy,
I saw your car has the shaved off Traction Master bolts like my car 5S275 has.
Was a Service Bulletin in 1966 fixing a complaint that that the bolt head hit the frame
when car was loaded in the trunk and or back seat (66).
Texas Swede
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: gt350hr on February 19, 2018, 12:58:34 PM
   Right Bo!
      For a '65 where there was no back seat , the bolts never contacted the frame.  Obviously for '66 that changed. Carryovers were made with the "same old bolts" and customers began to complain . By the time 6S477 was built the "thin" bolts were used to solve the issue. None of the three carryover cars I've owned had the "TSB" bolts.
    Randy
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: madeulook on February 26, 2018, 04:32:35 PM
I would like to know what the brand name of the crimpers are that are use to compress the ferrule.

Thanks,


John
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: Bob Gaines on February 26, 2018, 04:45:44 PM
I would like to know what the brand name of the crimpers are that are use to compress the ferrule.

Thanks,


John
The one I used was handed down from another restorer who retired. It has no legible mfg markings. It is in the possession of a restorer friend that uses it more frequently then I.  I would think checking with the garage door people for what they use and comparing the crimps would be one course of action. FYI I am sure it will be a expensive tool given the size and quality of the one I use .That is if used only for single time or couple time use.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: NC TRACKRAT on February 26, 2018, 07:57:52 PM
Reasonable price, excellent crimps: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-18-in-Swaging-Tool-43834/205887557?keyword=cable+ferrule+crimper&semanticToken=20040+++%3E++++st%3A%7Bcable+ferrule+crimper%7D%3Ast++cn%3A%7B0%3A0%7D++crimp+tool+%7Bproduct%7Dcable+%7BproductName_nostem%7D+ferrule+%7BproductName_nostem%7D+
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: Bob Gaines on February 26, 2018, 08:06:10 PM
Reasonable price, excellent crimps: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-18-in-Swaging-Tool-43834/205887557?keyword=cable+ferrule+crimper&semanticToken=20040+++%3E++++st%3A%7Bcable+ferrule+crimper%7D%3Ast++cn%3A%7B0%3A0%7D++crimp+tool+%7Bproduct%7Dcable+%7BproductName_nostem%7D+ferrule+%7BproductName_nostem%7D+
That would be a great alternative if it crimps it the same way. It just might.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: madeulook on February 27, 2018, 10:34:13 AM
NC TrackRat,

That's the ticket - I pull my axle to de-grease and detail and that required cutting Jim's cables. - Never put them back on, but I'm stopping by Home Depot tonight!

Thanks,

John
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: SFM5S000 on February 27, 2018, 11:28:07 AM
Reasonable price, excellent crimps: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-18-in-Swaging-Tool-43834/205887557?keyword=cable+ferrule+crimper&semanticToken=20040+++%3E++++st%3A%7Bcable+ferrule+crimper%7D%3Ast++cn%3A%7B0%3A0%7D++crimp+tool+%7Bproduct%7Dcable+%7BproductName_nostem%7D+ferrule+%7BproductName_nostem%7D+

Hiya Stan,

That crimper works really well. I used it on my car. See pic (same pic from a different reply).

Cheers,
~Earl J

Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: NC TRACKRAT on February 27, 2018, 02:15:43 PM
Lookin' great, Earl!  I like your rear sway bar set-up...adjustable and adjustable drop-links, too. Only thing about the crimping tool, you gotta eat your Wheaties, definitely not for wusses!
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: Bob Gaines on February 27, 2018, 05:36:41 PM
Lookin' great, Earl!  I like your rear sway bar set-up...adjustable and adjustable drop-links, too. Only thing about the crimping tool, you gotta eat your Wheaties, definitely not for wusses!
Mine has long handles so more leverage but that makes it difficult to maneuver while crimping and takes 4 hands in my case. The shorter handles make it more difficult to squeeze but that may be offset by easier access. I might just have to pick up a set to compare.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: NC TRACKRAT on February 27, 2018, 09:25:39 PM
Even with the short handles of the Home Depot tool, it's a challenge.  Working through the wheel well, the handles have to be fully open in order to receive the ferrule in the proper slot of the tool but the spread of the handles is just about the width of the wheel well opening.  You have to be sure the jaws are in the right position and that the cable ends don't move as you close the handles.  Then the minimal mechanical advantage requires super-human effort to close the tool....But, it works!
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: mygt350 on February 27, 2018, 10:12:17 PM
How long is the cable supposed to be?
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: 6s1640 on February 28, 2018, 01:18:12 AM
How long is the cable supposed to be?

The one in the image below measures 31.25 inches.

Cory
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: march66 on February 28, 2018, 09:29:32 AM
These last photos shows a single crimp and what looks like a copper ferrule.  Another interesting find and contrary to what is generally found. 

Gary C. Bergman
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: gt350hr on February 28, 2018, 11:18:53 AM
  Try making a set of tubular "extensions" for the handles for more mechanical advantage.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: NC TRACKRAT on February 28, 2018, 11:35:42 AM
  Try making a set of tubular "extensions" for the handles for more mechanical advantage.
That would really help except for the fact that the handles have to open up so wide to receive the ferrule that the ends of the tool handles are inside the wheel well...making no room for handle extensions.  After closing the handles about 1/3 of the way (requiring considerable force), I guess you could then carefully slip on some extensions.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: SFM5S000 on February 28, 2018, 01:36:24 PM
Stan,
It's not really necessary to have extensions to the crimper. I personally have used the one sold at Home Depot. It has a cam in the pivot that changes the geometry and crushing ability for the user to exert "normal" strength. I used a paper clip to hold the cable in position and let the ferrel rest on top of the clip, then crimped the ferrel. Piece of cake...
Then I returned the crimper back to HomeDepot as I didn't want to own the tool. (Don't tell Home Depot that).

Cheers,
~Earl J

Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: dockbay on May 15, 2018, 03:10:10 AM
Hi Everyone,
Can someone tell me the correct cable diameter?  I see someone mention 1/8" cable. Is that correct?
Cheers,
John
5S276

BTW,, Bo, my bolts traction bar bolts are not shaved even though your car is only one away from mine... I still have what I believe to be the the original NAT bolts.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: NC TRACKRAT on May 15, 2018, 07:12:40 AM
Yep, plain 1/8-inch diameter cable, no clear sheath.
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: dockbay on May 15, 2018, 12:49:26 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Original Axle Limiting Cables
Post by: GT350Lad on May 15, 2018, 04:47:04 PM
Yeah thanks I am missing one also

Cheers