To my eyes, it is about as nice as it gets;
https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/shelby/gt500/2070630.html
Of course I am partial to Nightmist Blue 500's
4-speed & A/C? wow
Whoops, I had to delete the Marti report when I realized the Ford VIN was still showing.
Here it is in redacted format;
#2471 was at Indy SAAC 42.
Surely someone here will know who restored it and what the result was in the concours class.
I helped judge this car (I carried the clipboard ;D) at SAAC 42. This car is superb - Div II Concours Gold. It belongs(ed) to Darren Longhoffer. This was the only 67 to receive Gold at SAAC 42.
I don't know all who worked on it, but I believe Jim Cowles did quite a bit of the work.
Truly, a great car.
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on February 12, 2018, 12:21:52 AM
I helped judge this car (I carried the clipboard ;D) at SAAC 42. This car is superb - Div II Concours Gold. It belongs(ed) to Darren Longhoffer. This was the only 67 to receive Gold at SAAC 42.
I don't know all who worked on it, but I believe Jim Cowles did quite a bit of the work.
Truly, a great car.
I believe Jim Cowles did the body and paint work. R+A Motorsports Jeff Yergovich did all of the finishing touches.
Not to hijack the thread, but I have a newbie question. This is the second time I've seen a forum reference to accidentally showing a Ford VIN number. Can someone explain what the faux pas is here? Is this a legal issue, or simply one of etiquette or something else? Just curious. Thx!
Quote from: Jim Herrud on February 12, 2018, 01:34:44 AM
Not to hijack the thread, but I have a newbie question. This is the second time I've seen a forum reference to accidentally showing a Ford VIN number. Can someone explain what the faux pas is here? Is this a legal issue, or simply one of etiquette or something else? Just curious. Thx!
In the past unscrupulous people have made up a car using vin numbers from another . In the case of 65,66 and 67 Shelby the Ford VIN is hidden under the Shelby vin plate . The Shelby VIN is different then the Ford VIN number. The SACC registry knows which Ford VIN number goes with what Shelby VIN number. If someone attempts to fake a car and the hidden Ford number doesn't match what is on the books it is exposed as a fake. Since the number is hidden on the 65,66,67 year cars it is harder to fake those. If both numbers are known it is easier to fake one. The hidden number sometimes gets exposed by accident which is like the reference you have seen. I hope this helps.
Thx Bob. That clarifies it well.
Thanks guys. It was a fastastic work by many including Shelby Parts, R&A Motorsport, Kuyoth for paint, etc... If it doesnt sell would like to try t-bred but missing the battery and 4 tires. Any leads appreciated.
Quote from: 64cobra on February 13, 2018, 02:54:51 PM
Thanks guys. It was a fastastic work by many including Shelby Parts, R&A Motorsport, Kuyoth for paint, etc... If it doesnt sell would like to try t-bred but missing the battery and 4 tires. Any leads appreciated.
Just to help with clarification - the tires needed would be the small letter version of the Speedway and the battery would be the 65,66,67 style assemblyline battery group 24. It would need the red caps in this specific case but one with yellow caps could be easily changed. The main issue is coming up with a assemblyline group 24 case. I hope this stimulates some offers for DL .
Thanks Bob. I was under the assuption it would take the larger battery with red caps since it had A/C.
Quote from: 64cobra on February 13, 2018, 03:20:59 PM
Thanks Bob. I was under the assuption it would take the larger battery with red caps since it had A/C.
Group 24 is the larger battery. It is the largest size available in 67/68. You may be thinking of group 27 that is a even larger battery but wasn't used in a Shelby until 1969. The Group 24 65-67 assemblyline battery is so rare that even if you found one with yellow caps or even no caps ( the caps only visible difference when installed) that it could solve your needs with little trouble.
Ok. Just to clarify. The 24 was the larger battery and not the smaller 22 that was assembly line on standard mustangs 65-67.
Quote from: 64cobra on February 13, 2018, 03:36:48 PM
Ok. Just to clarify. The 24 was the larger battery and not the smaller 22 that was assembly line on standard mustangs 65-67.
22 is the smaller battery that was used on smallblock standard Mustangs 65-67 depending on options. The 22 was not used on any 390/428 equipped Mustang/Shelby from the factory.
Good info. The 22 was used on most 66 shelbys with yellow caps as well as 67 gt350's?
Quote from: 64cobra on February 13, 2018, 03:56:29 PM
Good info. The 22 was used on most 66 shelbys with yellow caps as well as 67 gt350's?
22 is the base battery 66 . Air conditioning cars automatically were upgraded to the 24 . I think only 4 of those . ;) the 22 was the base battery on 67 GT350 . Upgrades to the larger 24 depended on options. For 67 GT500 options would determine if 24 yellow cap or red cap.
Just to throw this out there. Since these batteries and tires are so hard to come by will there ever be another t-bred or premier 67?
Quote from: 64cobra on February 13, 2018, 04:04:40 PM
Just to throw this out there. Since these batteries and tires are so hard to come by will there ever be another t-bred or premier 67?
You can say that about any other 65-70 Shelby too.
True. Only cars that seem to do it "borrow" parts. Which doesnt seem right.
I.E. Craig Jacksons 65 shelby 🙄
Rules need changed. When you cant 'buy' the part somethings wrong. As a recent judge having original tires and wheels from another owner "borrowed" to a car pisses me off. If the owner of the car being judged does not own the parts to his/her car its wrong.
Quote from: 64cobra on February 13, 2018, 04:46:24 PM
Rules need changed. When you cant 'buy' the part somethings wrong. As a recent judge having original tires and wheels from another owner "borrowed" to a car pisses me off. If the owner of the car being judged does not own the parts to his/her car its wrong.
Just throwing this out there.
If we restrict loaning, borrowing or renting parts, what would keep someone from buying the part(s) with an agreement to resell them once finished with them? To chase it further down the rabbit hole can we restrict the owner from removing any parts after they show the car.
We do all realize that there are no rules that require you don't even have to own the car you show. In theory (or in real life) you could rent or borrow a car to show it and get an award with it.
Lets be honest there would be no way of policing a rule that you can't borrow parts
True. Its a flawed system so every "award" needs further investigation. I can get a D1 premier award but without the parts I own. I.E. Craig Jacksons car with not his owned tires or other parts.
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 13, 2018, 05:09:52 PM
Quote from: 64cobra on February 13, 2018, 04:46:24 PM
Rules need changed. When you cant 'buy' the part somethings wrong. As a recent judge having original tires and wheels from another owner "borrowed" to a car pisses me off. If the owner of the car being judged does not own the parts to his/her car its wrong.
Just throwing this out there.
If we restrict loaning, borrowing or renting parts, what would keep someone from buying the part(s) with an agreement to resell them once finished with them? To chase it further down the rabbit hole can we restrict the owner from removing any parts after they show the car.
We do all realize that there are no rules that require you don't even have to own the car you show. In theory (or in real life) you could rent or borrow a car to show it and get an award with it.
Lets be honest there would be no way of policing a rule that you can't borrow parts
I can see both sides of this argument. On the one side you have a car that is truely the definition of "T Bred" and the owner has searched high and low for all the unobtainium parts. Then he or she should have a vehicle that is recognized for their efforts and its originality. If a person "borrows" those parts then returns them to only win a medal/class then he or she is only lying to themselves. When they go to sale the car and get top money, they have to explain where the parts went or what they did or falsely tell the potential buyer it is correct as it won.
Agree. Why as SAAC judges are we overlooking borrowed parts. Its just not fair to everyone else who has played by the rules and spent $$$$ to obtain honestly the parts they need.
Quote from: 64cobra on February 13, 2018, 04:46:24 PM
Rules need changed. When you cant 'buy' the part somethings wrong. As a recent judge having original tires and wheels from another owner "borrowed" to a car pisses me off. If the owner of the car being judged does not own the parts to his/her car its wrong.
When you say" the parts can't be bought" that is from your perspective. Others may be able to source the rare parts whether they have been collecting for decades or happen to be in the right spot at the right time . I can tell that you are frustrated because you are trying to find the parts now and can't. What about the people that have been searching for years? As soon as you say a part is impossible to find etc. it seems like it shows up in someone's car or being sold on ebay etc. The parts are out there some where. We have heard for quite a few years arguments about different parts that were too hard to find and that a deduction in concours should not be there because of it. In some situations it was a matter of the person not being networked enough in the community to understand that a part could be had if you know the right person. Other times it just a matter of time on the clock checking with various unlikely or out of the way sources before the part was found. My point is I think it is too early to be changing the rules in this regard because if you did it would prematurely penalize the hard work someone else who has gone to the trouble of sourcing a hard to find part when you give others who couldn't a pass by changing the rules. Maybe the time will come before too long but it is not now IMO. The borrowing parts issue is touchy because how do you know if the parts were borrowed or not. I don't like it anymore then it appears you do. If someone does not have loose lips how are you going to know. If you come up with a viable answer I would be interested in hearing it because the issue is something we have dealt with for decades.
I think the rules change should show that if a car has borrowed parts; then the award should be noted as having borrowed part.
Sort of an asterisk like Roger Maris' home runs coming in more games than Ruth. Can't think of a newer ball player that has does the same.......don't watch professional sports anymore......not the same as in the olden days. Yeah, I'm a grouch.
Max
Quote from: Alan on February 13, 2018, 05:31:24 PM
I think the rules change should show that if a car has borrowed parts; then the award should be noted as having borrowed part.
Sort of an asterisk like Roger Maris' home runs coming in more games than Ruth. Can't think of a newer ball player that has does the same.......don't watch professional sports anymore......not the same as in the olden days. Yeah, I'm a grouch.
Max
So how do you know or prove parts are borrowed?????That is the big problem other wise it would have been addressed years ago. This is not a new problem. Just new people getting into the field finding out about it.
You probably can't but I bet there's a good chance that it isn't a total secret; ie, you mentioned networking and such does seem like it could be a way to attain/borrow parts. Last I checked, networking involves a minimum of two people. Of course, good buddies wouldn't squeal.
Max
When i see 5 tires being wheeled in on a show field by not the owner its "borrowed". After the car is in place.
Quote from: 64cobra on February 13, 2018, 05:25:42 PM
Agree. Why as SAAC judges are we overlooking borrowed parts. ...............
Firstly it's likely because there are no rules about ownership
Also we don't know what might be borrowed, can't be expected (going to take allot of time and effort) to ask the owner to provide a list of every part on the car and where it might come from, bad blood between owners or builders might lead some to make up stories about other cars/parts, .... its a deep pool we would be diving into where no one involved will likely be happy and no telling how many would choose just not to buy, build or participate.
I guess I'm not upset as some of you are. Have heard and seen a fair number of those that now question the practice participate at some point in the past. Guess each of us can have a change of mind.
As a judge I'm looking at the car as presented that day that moment. What ever the car was before (be it a burnt wreck or the most perfect rust free beauty) IMHO makes no difference at that moment. Don't care if the owner is a 9-5 worker at a plant or a multi-millionaire its about the car and what it is when we judge it.
Others will surely see things differently
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 13, 2018, 05:34:44 PM
So how do you know or prove parts are borrowed?????............
Maybe ::) we can require that the car's VIN be etched (judges will ignore the non-factory markings) in each part so that we know that the parts were installed when the car was judged. Not serious but sure some are considering something as concrete
Funny. Maybe its time we get rid of d1 and just have one class. Seems everyone lately in D1 has borrowed parts from past D1 cars.
Quote from: Alan on February 13, 2018, 05:37:41 PM
You probably can't but I bet there's a good chance that it isn't a total secret; ie, you mentioned networking and such does seem like it could be a way to attain/borrow parts. Last I checked, networking involves a minimum of two people. Of course, good buddies wouldn't squeal.
Max
I am sure it would be more close to the vest especially if it was grounds for disqualification which it isn't now. That wouldn't stop it . You just would have less people talking about the details or which parts. 64 cobra said " When i see 5 tires being wheeled in on a show field by not the owner its "borrowed". After the car is in place. " . That is certainly suspicious but it could easily be explained (not that I believe it in the example instance :) ) as not wanting to drive on the 50 year + old tires to the spot. The owner may have hired people to help or friends . Many owners do not do their own work (not judging them). The point is hard to prove and easy to start a big problem if you make accusations you can't prove.
Agree Bob. Just tough to get to that level anymore. Why im selling my 2 "almost" cars and giving it up. Just too many people who dont play by the rules. I cant honestly show a D1 car without owning the parts. Love to get there but if I dont own my car and parts its just fake.
Quote from: 64cobra on February 13, 2018, 06:25:19 PM
Agree Bob. Just tough to get to that level anymore. Why im selling my 2 "almost" cars and giving it up. Just too many people who dont play by the rules. I cant honestly show a D1 car without owning the parts. Love to get there but if I dont own my car and parts its just fake.
You sell yourself sort or at least your cars. Both your cars are spectacular and heads and shoulders over the vast majority that is out there. I believe you are being to tough on yourself .Your expectations are pretty high.
This car was a treat to work on. not only was the body laser straight and dry rust free so were all the original suspension parts which were cleaned up and re-installed. In 45 years this was the best car Ive ever seen to be restored. All the parts were original and no body work was needed Its a treat when you dont have to do any body work on a car . Last car I had like that was in 1977
Darren: You're just going to have to start looking for 67's with original spare tires for sale and snag for your car! ;) ;) ;) You just have to remember to re-sell the cars instead of keeping them :D ;D
We can 3D scan/print a 24F battery if anyone would let their original be scanned.
Quote from: caspian65 on February 13, 2018, 10:35:59 PM
Darren: You're just going to have to start looking for 67's with original spare tires for sale and snag for your car! ;) ;) ;) You just have to remember to re-sell the cars instead of keeping them :D ;D
We can 3D scan/print a 24F battery if anyone would let their original be scanned.
I was going to send one to a company to be copied but recently heard some disturbing behavior about the company which has made me rethink sending it . Too bad.
I have a good friend here that has access to scanning and printing equipment, but know that there is much hesitation to shipping an original battery.
Quote from: 2112 on February 11, 2018, 05:01:58 PM
Whoops, I had to delete the Marti report when I realized the Ford VIN was still showing.
Here it is in redacted format;
Thanks. So anyone now can have the Ford serial number of any 67 Shelby. I didn't know that as you can order a Marti report for any car-don't have to own it.
With money comes privilege ;)... The Jacksons of the world can buy what ever they want where the average Joe cant. So to get to the point in the racing world they have safety seals,etched bolts and pieces, and break away bolts if tampered with we know. Possibly a chemical process can be used like looking under a black light would show up as being tampered with. You could put an invisible Dot on the cars parts running for these awards only to be seen by a certain process this way it wouldn't piss of the owner by marking up his show car. There are only so many cars in the world running for these awards so we could see who was mixing and matching parts. Craig Jacksons could be green,,,,, ;) While Joe Schmoes car could be red and OOOOH DAMN would you look at that the red wheels don't belong to the green car OOOPS ;)
they dont want to buy the parts but want the award to be shon at the auction ???
There are and will always be people that try to work around the system and be dishonest (to them its probably not). People have different morals as well and in the end, you are the one that has to look at yourself in the mirror and decide what kind of person you are going to be. Are you going to be one with integrity in knowing that you are honest and do everything you can to treat people right and do the right thing, or be a person that doesn't have integrity and only out to deceive people for self gain. Personnelly, I would much rather enjoy my car knowing that I put it together to the best of my ability and finances allowed and win nothing, than to win every top award knowing in the back of my mind, I was dishonest in obtaining the award.
In the end, there will be the ones that love the cars for what they are and enjoy them and the others only see $. You CAN tell the difference.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on February 14, 2018, 05:11:15 AM
Thanks. So anyone now can have the Ford serial number of any 67 Shelby. I didn't know that as you can order a Marti report for any car-don't have to own it.
Yeah, and it is still on the Hemmings ad. I just didn't want to be a facilitator of malfeasance at some point in the future.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on February 14, 2018, 05:11:15 AM
Quote from: 2112 on February 11, 2018, 05:01:58 PM
Whoops, I had to delete the Marti report when I realized the Ford VIN was still showing.
Here it is in redacted format;
Thanks. So anyone now can have the Ford serial number of any 67 Shelby. I didn't know that as you can order a Marti report for any car-don't have to own it.
No Gary that is a wrong assumption. You have to have both numbers to get a Marti report for a 65-67 Shelby. You don't have to own it but you do have to have both numbers. Kevin is not dumb. He is aware of the possible reasons people try and get them.
Quote from: 427heaven on February 14, 2018, 07:31:43 AM
With money comes privilege ;)... The Jacksons of the world can buy what ever they want where the average Joe cant. So to get to the point in the racing world they have safety seals,etched bolts and pieces, and break away bolts if tampered with we know. Possibly a chemical process can be used like looking under a black light would show up as being tampered with. You could put an invisible Dot on the cars parts running for these awards only to be seen by a certain process this way it wouldn't piss of the owner by marking up his show car. There are only so many cars in the world running for these awards so we could see who was mixing and matching parts. Craig Jacksons could be green,,,,, ;) While Joe Schmoes car could be red and OOOOH DAMN would you look at that the red wheels don't belong to the green car OOOPS ;)
There may have been time constraints with the '65 Jackson car that had borrowed parts. I know John was under a very narrow timeline to complete it. As I understand, the judging sheets from MCA/SAAC will be used to improve the car and show it again this year.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 14, 2018, 10:36:30 AM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on February 14, 2018, 05:11:15 AM
Quote from: 2112 on February 11, 2018, 05:01:58 PM
Whoops, I had to delete the Marti report when I realized the Ford VIN was still showing.
Here it is in redacted format;
Thanks. So anyone now can have the Ford serial number of any 67 Shelby. I didn't know that as you can order a Marti report for any car-don't have to own it.
No Gary that is a wrong assumption. You have to have both numbers to get a Marti report for a 65-67 Shelby. You don't have to own it but you do have to have both numbers. Kevin is not dumb. He is aware of the possible reasons people try and get them.
Thanks for the clarification Bob.
Just for clarification, I know for a fact Craig owns the tires on the 65. I was at John's a couple weeks ago. Sometimes it takes owners and restores awhile to come to an agreement on price for certain things like tires, exhaust and battery's. Most people know that if they sell these type parts they will never find another to replace them. So why let a fantastic car, with a near perfect tbred resto sit at home because it is missing one or two parts? It's a great benefit to the hobby when cars like that show up for everyone to study and learn from.
Dont know if i have seen this 67 but 4-spd a/c great color sounds like this car has everything going for it. I know where a set of NOS small letter tires are if u are serious about buying a set & i used to have 65 66 67 original batteries here in the past but SOMEONE we all know got them from me.
Quote from: Special Ed on February 15, 2018, 12:45:22 PM
Dont know if i have seen this 67 but 4-spd a/c great color sounds like this car has everything going for it. I know where a set of NOS small letter tires are if u are serious about buying a set & i used to have 65 66 67 original batteries here in the past but SOMEONE we all know got them from me.
::) ;D
PM has been sent on Tires.... Randy
So that you may bookend your purchase;
https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/shelby/gt350/2070628.html?refer=news
Mr. Cowles has some sweet vehicles coming out of his facility. :)