Someone here knows 1967/68 trans-am cars....
Is there a reproduction of the rear disc brake caliper mounting bracket?
Ray Bonthron, would know. He has my boss 302 race car right now. He is the expert in trans am stuff. He was the guy the did a lot of the stuff for mike mulcahy. He is a member of the site. IF you don't find him pete email mail me later . I have his number at the shop.
chris
Thanks CBrown
Are you going to IN SF ?
Yes sir!!! Gona be more 69 shelbys there than SAAC ever thought about. lol Rarest of the rare will be there... Mecum Friday and brown county on Saturday...
chris
Quote from: Coralsnake on May 12, 2019, 10:25:40 AM
Someone here knows 1967/68 trans-am cars....
Is there a reproduction of the rear disc brake caliper mounting bracket?
I know enough to be dangerous. I don't know how exact to original specs it is but I think Cobra Automotive has something. They make the brackets for the big front brakes in 68 too. FYI the 67's had drum brakes . In 68 it became legal to run discs in the back .Probably had to do with the modified bodywork allowed front and back for wider tires. Big T bird brakes in front allowed probably for the same reason Many of the 67's were converted to 68 specs at that time so that they would be competitive in the 68 season.
Thank you Mr Gaines
Agreed - 67 were not originally built with rear disk just drums. Of course allot of stuff was changed as years past and teams did their own things to compete
That bracket would take the front 67 K-H calipers. There is no parking brake with that set up.
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 12, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
That bracket would take the front 67 K-H calipers. There is no parking brake with that set up.
The 68's used the single piston front caliper moved to the rear same with 69. I am guessing that the converted to 68 specs 67 models typically ran the 68 brakes in the rear too instead of reinventing the wheel and for consistency. Not to say that the 67 calipers couldn't be made to run in the rear because they can .
Part of the value of running the 67 4 piston calipers is because they have better clamping power. Using a single piston caliper doesn't distribute the load to the pad backing plate as evenly. The backing plates bend.
You can make an adapter for virtually any combination and depending on what racing season the car was last run in would probably determine exactly what combination you would find on the car. There weren't exactly any Concourse Judges involed with T/A cars.
The standard that I use (if there is such a thing) is what Shelby American delivered it with new. Those are only '67s. There are two 8D '68s but those are '67s that were renumbered.
The Bud Moore cars were different in many respects then the Kar Kraft Boss 302's are. I think that more then any other car, one needs to qualify which of the T/A cars "you" are referring too?
Personally, me, after researching the brakes as well as I could, I went with the '67 "Big Ford/Lincoln" K-H 4 piston calipers with the 12" x 1.25" vented rotors with a '76 Lincoln Versailles rear 9" set up. The only change I went to was to go to 31 spline Strange forged axles.
The Lincoln pumpkin is 2" narrower allowing larger rear tires without modifying the wheel wells. It uses no adapter to break. It uses huge rear mounting bolts and much heftier housings that were ever used in T/A and has a parking brake which actually works sometimes? ;D
Was it raced by the factory team in '67? No, but it could have been run by an independent in '76. It certainly would qualify. It says Ford all over and has 76 casting dates.
"You" need to qualify which "team" you are talking about with the T/A cars.
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 12, 2019, 01:45:27 PM
Part of the value of running the 67 4 piston calipers is because they have better clamping power. Using a single piston caliper doesn't distribute the load to the pad backing plate as evenly. The backing plates bend.
You can make an adapter for virtually any combination and depending on what racing season the car was last run in would probably determine exactly what combination you would find on the car. There weren't exactly any Concourse Judges involed with T/A cars.
The standard that I use (if there is such a thing) is what Shelby American delivered it with new. Those are only '67s. There are two 8D '68s but those are '67s that were renumbered.
The Bud Moore cars were different in many respects then the Kar Kraft Boss 302's are. I think that more then any other car, one needs to qualify which of the T/A cars "you" are referring too?
Personally, me, after researching the brakes as well as I could, I went with the '67 "Big Ford/Lincoln" K-H 4 piston calipers with the 12" x 1.25" vented rotors with a '76 Lincoln Versailles rear 9" set up. The only change I went to was to go to 31 spline Strange forged axles.
The Lincoln pumpkin is 2" narrower allowing larger rear tires without modifying the wheel wells. It uses no adapter to break. It uses huge rear mounting bolts and much heftier housings that were ever used in T/A and has a parking brake which actually works sometimes? ;D
Was it raced by the factory team in '67? No, but it could have been run by an independent in '76. It certainly would qualify. It says Ford all over and has 76 casting dates.
"You" need to qualify which "team" you are talking about with the T/A cars.
Just some more thoughts. Race cars were built a typical way back in the day depending on the day/month/year of it's racing introduction. They evolved depending on what worked best that was allowed and legal at the time. Some times they used what the car came with from Ford. A example is the shifter. they didn't try to reinvent the wheel. The Ford shifter was used on the majority of the competition cars from 65 all the way up to 69 when the Hurst shifter started to be used. Just making the example to show one of the contributing factors of why maybe the single piston calipers would have been used like they did instead of using the 67 Mustang 4 piston caliper . It is well documented that it was done with the single piston 68-70 caliper in the 68,69 and 70 TA season . Restorers typically build cars back to their most significant time in history. Figuring out what was the most significant time in a given race cars history can sometimes be a hard decision. If you want to talk about what was done back in the day there is quite a bit of information out there. Race cars that are built to historical race configuration don't necessarily fit neatly into any concours category because there were variations depending on what window in time it was trying to mimic. It is easier with the street cars because they are typically judged in day 1 trim. If you want to talk about about what works best now on a race /track car 50 years plus after the fact including using relatively modern parts and assemblies then that would be a good subject for a different thread for people wanting to modify their car for street or track today.
BTW The #1509 FIA Papers list those optional disc brake kits for the 68 T/A season as S8MR-2025-A. It may help to find the mounting bracket.
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1486836002/homologation_form_number_1509_group_2.pdf
Here is a pic of #1 Titus 1968 car published in the SCG1968
(http://www.ponysite.de/SCG1968_titusreardisc.jpg)
;D
Looks like 67 K-H four piston front Mustang calipers to me?
The adapter is probably just 1/4" steel plate bolted in place of the drum backing plates? Everyone just presumes that it was taken off of an existing production vehicle but it's simpler to use a piece of plate steel in many cases.
The front adapter was a Kar Kraft part machined for the application out of a piece of billet steel.
As a previous request of the OP, I'll refrain from mentioning Concourse correct parts.
Quote from: Coralsnake on May 12, 2019, 10:25:40 AM
Someone here knows 1967/68 trans-am cars....
Is there a reproduction of the rear disc brake caliper mounting bracket?
As far as I know, there is not. I have never heard of it being mentioned.
thanks for the help
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 12, 2019, 07:13:56 PM
;D
Looks like 67 K-H four piston front Mustang calipers to me?
The adapter is probably just 1/4" steel plate bolted in place of the drum backing plates? Everyone just presumes that it was taken off of an existing production vehicle but it's simpler to use a piece of plate steel in many cases.
The front adapter was a Kar Kraft part machined for the application out of a piece of billet steel.
As a previous request of the OP, I'll refrain from mentioning Concourse correct parts.
Doug ,no denying that the 67 Mustang front calipers also worked as I mentioned in my previous post.I believe the single piston was used for the majority of the 68 ,69 and 70 TA cars .
The bracket looks similar to the 65 front disc brake part.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-140519151745.png)
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 14, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 12, 2019, 07:13:56 PM
;D
Looks like 67 K-H four piston front Mustang calipers to me?
The adapter is probably just 1/4" steel plate bolted in place of the drum backing plates? Everyone just presumes that it was taken off of an existing production vehicle but it's simpler to use a piece of plate steel in many cases.
The front adapter was a Kar Kraft part machined for the application out of a piece of billet steel.
As a previous request of the OP, I'll refrain from mentioning Concourse correct parts.
Doug ,no denying that the 67 Mustang front calipers also worked as I mentioned in my previous post.I believe the single piston was used for the majority of the 68 ,69 and 70 TA cars .
You need to qualify what T/A cars you are talking about. There are only two '68 Shelby cars. The ones that were renumbered to show the Tunnel Port, engine code D, and a 68 production.
One of them is in that picture and it clearly shows a '67 4 piston caliper. The other car is called a "backup car" and really is the sister car to the Titus car.
If we're talking Bud Moore or someone else, I wouldn't know what they ran.
I suppose it all depends on what was homologated for them?
The '69 Boss 302 Chassis Book(let) is showing the "big Ford" front calipers and pretty sure, 67 Mustang fronts on the rear?
It doesn't really matter to me. I've got no dog in this race but as far as making a comment about "pretty much documented", ok. Where? Is there a secret document book somewhere? ;D
Found in my archive a pic of the other cars rear set-up in CAR LIFE Nov 68 (yellow car, red #1 Titus car is pictured as well in that article).
(http://www.ponysite.de/2_68_rearbrakesetup.jpg)
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 14, 2019, 04:17:32 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 14, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 12, 2019, 07:13:56 PM
;D
Looks like 67 K-H four piston front Mustang calipers to me?
The adapter is probably just 1/4" steel plate bolted in place of the drum backing plates? Everyone just presumes that it was taken off of an existing production vehicle but it's simpler to use a piece of plate steel in many cases.
The front adapter was a Kar Kraft part machined for the application out of a piece of billet steel.
As a previous request of the OP, I'll refrain from mentioning Concourse correct parts.
Doug ,no denying that the 67 Mustang front calipers also worked as I mentioned in my previous post.I believe the single piston was used for the majority of the 68 ,69 and 70 TA cars .
You need to qualify what T/A cars you are talking about. There are only two '68 Shelby cars. The ones that were renumbered to show the Tunnel Port, engine code D, and a 68 production.
One of them is in that picture and it clearly shows a '67 4 piston caliper. The other car is called a "backup car" and really is the sister car to the Titus car.
If we're talking Bud Moore or someone else, I wouldn't know what they ran.
I suppose it all depends on what was homologated for them?
The '69 Boss 302 Chassis Book(let) is showing the "big Ford" front calipers and pretty sure, 67 Mustang fronts on the rear?
It doesn't really matter to me. I've got no dog in this race but as far as making a comment about "pretty much documented", ok. Where? Is there a secret document book somewhere? ;D
]I might be remembering the Boss 302 TA sheet. My 68 TA car #5 was restored with the 4 piston brakes in the rear. This makes me feel better as I thought the 4 piston ones on the car were out of place . http://www.ponysite.de/67_68_notchbacks.htm
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 14, 2019, 06:01:11 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 14, 2019, 04:17:32 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 14, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 12, 2019, 07:13:56 PM
;D
Looks like 67 K-H four piston front Mustang calipers to me?
The adapter is probably just 1/4" steel plate bolted in place of the drum backing plates? Everyone just presumes that it was taken off of an existing production vehicle but it's simpler to use a piece of plate steel in many cases.
The front adapter was a Kar Kraft part machined for the application out of a piece of billet steel.
As a previous request of the OP, I'll refrain from mentioning Concourse correct parts.
Doug ,no denying that the 67 Mustang front calipers also worked as I mentioned in my previous post.I believe the single piston was used for the majority of the 68 ,69 and 70 TA cars .
You need to qualify what T/A cars you are talking about. There are only two '68 Shelby cars. The ones that were renumbered to show the Tunnel Port, engine code D, and a 68 production.
One of them is in that picture and it clearly shows a '67 4 piston caliper. The other car is called a "backup car" and really is the sister car to the Titus car.
If we're talking Bud Moore or someone else, I wouldn't know what they ran.
I suppose it all depends on what was homologated for them?
The '69 Boss 302 Chassis Book(let) is showing the "big Ford" front calipers and pretty sure, 67 Mustang fronts on the rear?
It doesn't really matter to me. I've got no dog in this race but as far as making a comment about "pretty much documented", ok. Where? Is there a secret document book somewhere? ;D
]I might be remembering the Boss 302 TA sheet. My 68 TA car #5 was restored with the 4 piston brakes in the rear. This makes me feel better as I thought the 4 piston ones on the car were out of place . http://www.ponysite.de/67_68_notchbacks.htm
According to spec sheet Trans Ed posted, the rear discs were optional. So why should anything to do with Shelby cars be easy or not full of asterisks? I think I'd rather have the drums. Rear discs are a Royal PITA. On a club racer like these T/A cars you don't have enough time to screw with everything on the car. Least of all, tempermental rear discs?
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 14, 2019, 07:33:25 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 14, 2019, 06:01:11 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 14, 2019, 04:17:32 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 14, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 12, 2019, 07:13:56 PM
;D
Looks like 67 K-H four piston front Mustang calipers to me?
The adapter is probably just 1/4" steel plate bolted in place of the drum backing plates? Everyone just presumes that it was taken off of an existing production vehicle but it's simpler to use a piece of plate steel in many cases.
The front adapter was a Kar Kraft part machined for the application out of a piece of billet steel.
As a previous request of the OP, I'll refrain from mentioning Concourse correct parts.
Doug ,no denying that the 67 Mustang front calipers also worked as I mentioned in my previous post.I believe the single piston was used for the majority of the 68 ,69 and 70 TA cars .
You need to qualify what T/A cars you are talking about. There are only two '68 Shelby cars. The ones that were renumbered to show the Tunnel Port, engine code D, and a 68 production.
One of them is in that picture and it clearly shows a '67 4 piston caliper. The other car is called a "backup car" and really is the sister car to the Titus car.
If we're talking Bud Moore or someone else, I wouldn't know what they ran.
I suppose it all depends on what was homologated for them?
The '69 Boss 302 Chassis Book(let) is showing the "big Ford" front calipers and pretty sure, 67 Mustang fronts on the rear?
It doesn't really matter to me. I've got no dog in this race but as far as making a comment about "pretty much documented", ok. Where? Is there a secret document book somewhere? ;D
]I might be remembering the Boss 302 TA sheet. My 68 TA car #5 was restored with the 4 piston brakes in the rear. This makes me feel better as I thought the 4 piston ones on the car were out of place . http://www.ponysite.de/67_68_notchbacks.htm
According to spec sheet Trans Ed posted, the rear discs were optional. So why should anything to do with Shelby cars be easy or not full of asterisks? I think I'd rather have the drums. Rear discs are a Royal PITA. On a club racer like these T/A cars you don't have enough time to screw with everything on the car. Least of all, tempermental rear discs?
Doug,
Would you care to expound on why you term a rear disc setup as "tempermental"?
Thank you,
Erik
the 4 piston front calipers on race cars were Lincoln/ with thunderbird rotors . Fia papes say a lot of things were legal but that is not the case / they show 10 inch wide wheels / among other things .
Quote from: Mr.Guts on May 14, 2019, 08:28:07 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 14, 2019, 07:33:25 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 14, 2019, 06:01:11 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 14, 2019, 04:17:32 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 14, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 12, 2019, 07:13:56 PM
;D
Looks like 67 K-H four piston front Mustang calipers to me?
The adapter is probably just 1/4" steel plate bolted in place of the drum backing plates? Everyone just presumes that it was taken off of an existing production vehicle but it's simpler to use a piece of plate steel in many cases.
The front adapter was a Kar Kraft part machined for the application out of a piece of billet steel.
As a previous request of the OP, I'll refrain from mentioning Concourse correct parts.
Doug ,no denying that the 67 Mustang front calipers also worked as I mentioned in my previous post.I believe the single piston was used for the majority of the 68 ,69 and 70 TA cars .
You need to qualify what T/A cars you are talking about. There are only two '68 Shelby cars. The ones that were renumbered to show the Tunnel Port, engine code D, and a 68 production.
One of them is in that picture and it clearly shows a '67 4 piston caliper. The other car is called a "backup car" and really is the sister car to the Titus car.
If we're talking Bud Moore or someone else, I wouldn't know what they ran.
I suppose it all depends on what was homologated for them?
The '69 Boss 302 Chassis Book(let) is showing the "big Ford" front calipers and pretty sure, 67 Mustang fronts on the rear?
It doesn't really matter to me. I've got no dog in this race but as far as making a comment about "pretty much documented", ok. Where? Is there a secret document book somewhere? ;D
]I might be remembering the Boss 302 TA sheet. My 68 TA car #5 was restored with the 4 piston brakes in the rear. This makes me feel better as I thought the 4 piston ones on the car were out of place . http://www.ponysite.de/67_68_notchbacks.htm
According to spec sheet Trans Ed posted, the rear discs were optional. So why should anything to do with Shelby cars be easy or not full of asterisks? I think I'd rather have the drums. Rear discs are a Royal PITA. On a club racer like these T/A cars you don't have enough time to screw with everything on the car. Least of all, tempermental rear discs?
Doug,
Would you care to expound on why you term a rear disc setup as "tempermental"?
Thank you,
Erik
I get uneven pad wear, pads often squeak and in my case because I use a parking brake, the parking brakes don't like to hold. Of course if you have an automatic transmission you don't really need a parking brake. ;D
The main value seems to be on a car that continuously needs to brake hard from something like 150mph down to 20 or so in a long distance race like Lemans. In a 20 minute race there isn't a lot of advantage.
The drums are initially easier to set up parking brake wise. The big drums CAN be a PITA to get the original drag right. You wouldn't want to need to do that in a pit stop.
Having said that, certain disc bake calipers are much easier to drop in new pads under pit stop conditions then others. For one, the "big Lincoln" front calipers are almost like race calipers in that respect and they are just a larger version of the original K-H Mustang front calipers.
These brakes were really ultra-high-tech for the time but isn't that what these T/A cars are? If you want current high-tech, buy a new car. What's ironic though, except for some of the electronic gizmos and thing-a-ma-jigs, the cars are nearly the same? Far-out-man! Right? Hippie Heaven. Peace! ;)
Bob ,
The predominant rear caliper was the '67 four piston through '69. For 1970 Bud tried some single piston stuff . What throws people off is the Boss 302 chassis book showed single piston stuff and the part numbers listed ( sale of leftover parts) were for that set up. The single piston stuff was not race worthy back then. There were some aluminum K/H "slider" ( as they were called back then) calipers made especially for Bud. '68 and 69 used Lincoln fronts and Mustang ( 4 piston ) rears.
In '69 Shelby Racing Co switched to Hurst shifters but Bud stayed with Ford shifters until '70.
Respectfully,
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on May 15, 2019, 10:36:50 AM
Bob ,
The predominant rear caliper was the '67 four piston through '69. For 1970 Bud tried some single piston stuff . What throws people off is the Boss 302 chassis book showed single piston stuff and the part numbers listed ( sale of leftover parts) were for that set up. The single piston stuff was not race worthy back then. There were some aluminum K/H "slider" ( as they were called back then) calipers made especially for Bud. '68 and 69 used Lincoln fronts and Mustang ( 4 piston ) rears.
In '69 Shelby Racing Co switched to Hurst shifters but Bud stayed with Ford shifters until '70.
Respectfully,
Randy
I stand corrected. Thanks.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 15, 2019, 01:56:59 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on May 15, 2019, 10:36:50 AM
Bob ,
The predominant rear caliper was the '67 four piston through '69. For 1970 Bud tried some single piston stuff . What throws people off is the Boss 302 chassis book showed single piston stuff and the part numbers listed ( sale of leftover parts) were for that set up. The single piston stuff was not race worthy back then. There were some aluminum K/H "slider" ( as they were called back then) calipers made especially for Bud. '68 and 69 used Lincoln fronts and Mustang ( 4 piston ) rears.
In '69 Shelby Racing Co switched to Hurst shifters but Bud stayed with Ford shifters until '70.
Respectfully,
Randy
I stand corrected. Thanks.
There's like 3 cars that are 68s and 69s. You guys make it sound like there are dozens?
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 15, 2019, 01:56:59 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on May 15, 2019, 10:36:50 AM
Bob ,
The predominant rear caliper was the '67 four piston through '69. For 1970 Bud tried some single piston stuff . What throws people off is the Boss 302 chassis book showed single piston stuff and the part numbers listed ( sale of leftover parts) were for that set up. The single piston stuff was not race worthy back then. There were some aluminum K/H "slider" ( as they were called back then) calipers made especially for Bud. '68 and 69 used Lincoln fronts and Mustang ( 4 piston ) rears.
In '69 Shelby Racing Co switched to Hurst shifters but Bud stayed with Ford shifters until '70.
Respectfully,
Randy
I stand corrected. Thanks.
I was at Bud Moores shop maybe 25 years ago and they had crates full of NOS 69 shifters. I bought what I needed at the time. I didnt know at the time that they had a heat treat issue with the detent springs in these. thats why they got loose and sloppy early on. Bud probably put a new one in for each race