SAAC Forum

Hello Folks,

I have a Mustang GT, A factory one, 1965, Trans is a T10 with the cars VIN stamped in it showing its the born with trans.

I need to have it rebuilt here in Europe and thus need to order a rebuild kit from the states. A mistake would cost me dearly

Can anyone assist with which kit I need for the rebuild? I usually buy off ebay USA and ship to a freight forwarder.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,Peter

Scott Drake sells a kit  C5ZZ-7005-R4B, see

http://www.drakeautomotivegroup.com/Store/Product/C5ZZ-7005-R4B.aspx?wid=141

Summit Racing also sell the Scott Drake kit plus others.

How are the tranny gears?  Finding better gears will be tough when compared to finding Top Loader gears.

Best of luck

Cory

  Peter,
      That kit is fine but DO NOT reassemble your transmission without replacing the  "sliders" ( the actual parts that engage the gears when shifting) to the ''modern" design. There are two different versions based on the type of "dogs" ( or "keys") used on your synchro assemblies.  The difference is the amount of "bump" on the dogs . One style is thin and the other is far larger. "Sliders" are made for both styles with modern upgrades to improve shift quality and reduce "popping" out of gear that is so common to the T-10s.
    Randy

Thanks folks,

I knew these were not as easy as a toploader :-( I have toploaders on the shelf and rebuild kits in stock for them.

The trans operates lovely, I mean its one of the nicest shifting cars I have ever had. Unfortunately it pops out of 2nd and 3rd while driving. Just cruising its pops out of third and second.

Cheers. Peter

Photos

T10 https://imgur.com/gallery/7TLuzzi

  The new design sliders will correct that.

If new sliders do not fix it, then look
at the detents in the side cover.
It's possible that they are not
holding the pin. One fix can be to file a deeper grove.

     Peter ,
       The T-10 is actually a more simple design. For example the cluster does not have to be "dropped" to remove the output shaft. The only "major" downfall is the smaller ( than a toploader)) gears. Shifting is far more simple ( action wise) than a toploader. It is a great transmission for a "respectful" driver.Abuse IS better handled by a toploader.
   Randy

Thanks guy
Can I assume its a T10 and not a super T10

Cheers  peter

   Correct "regular" NOT super. The "sliders" are the same though.
      Randy

Thanks Randy and everyone else for the education on the T10.  Do you know where I can get the sliders?

As mentioned above about filing the deeper groove in the pins

This trans shifts like butter, absolutely wonderful. Top ten percent of manuals and I have went through nearly 150 cars in the past few years.

Is it probable that filing those deeper groove would sort this issue?

Gear box is silent, doesn't growl, graunch or do anything nasty.

Cheers. Peter

  Try Ebay for T-10 synchros . Some call them "hooked" or "back cut". I'll see if I can find you a link. A US company called Autogear may have them and they make THE best replacement brass there is. Better than original by my experience. Use a GL4 spec fluid ONLY not GL5 or synthetic.
      Randy

Thank you, Scott drake kit is on the way. Cheers. Peter

Which kit are you going with?

Scott Drake Manual Transmission Master Rebuild Kit C5ZZ-7005-R4B

Let us know how things work out. Thanks

I will but don't be afraid to chase for a reply as I am so busy I don't know which way is up. Hit me with an PM and will be happy to post here with a result if I forget to update on my own. Cheers. peter

   Peter ,
      You are welcome to PM me anytime and I'll walk you through the job.
    Randy

Hmmm

2 bearings are incorrect size and of the 3 blockers, 2 are one style and one another

Thanks Randy, very much appreciated

Maddening.  Ordered new shift forks as the ones in the trans are heavily worn.  Installed them and shift into first and the box locks up.  Old forks, shifts perfect.  New forks 20 thousands thicker than unworn portion of old forks

Nothing is ever easy:-)

Quote from: pmustang on June 19, 2019, 11:47:36 AM
Maddening....  Nothing is ever easy:-)

"Ain't that the truth"  ::)
Ugh. Sorry to hear about the extra difficulties, good luck getting everything right.

Quote from: pmustang on June 03, 2019, 10:20:13 AM
Hmmm

2 bearings are incorrect size and of the 3 blockers, 2 are one style and one another

Thanks Randy, very much appreciated

      Don't thank me , I didn't make the kit .

Hello Randy, Obviously I meant thank you for the offer of help :-)

I may have been better off buying a Munci rebuild kit for how many parts have been wrong in this one.

     OK  thanks. It is disappointing that vendors can't get things right.  The problem is compounded when you are located outside of the USA. Good luck with finishing it!
       Randy

Hello

Getting distraught now.....:-)

Hope someone can help

I was going to speak directly to Randy but maybe others can learn from my woes

So to start. 65 GT Fastback, 289/T10

Car drove impeccably and shifted perfect. Maybe in the top 5% of all of them in comparison. I sell these cars so drive alot of them

BUT, was popping out of gear while driving, Not during accel or decel. Just while driving

So it was suggested either the detents on the back of the cover were worn or a rebuild was needed

I ordered a rebuild kit.

Trans was opened and the detents were perfect. Solid and held excellent when moved

Internals of the trans looked near new. No discernable difference between old syncro rings and new. Not a mark on them.

So new syncros installed, New needle bearings installed on layshaft. (couldn't use bearings as they were wrong size)

NOTE: shift forks heavily worn!!!

So bought new shift forks, They are considerably wider than old forks (in the non worn area) When installed the gearbox would stick and not come out of gear. 3rd gear I believe. This was on the bench not in the car

This part will get me in trouble. Reinstalled old shift forks, installed box in the car.

If you are very deliberate shifting and after 2nd you let the gear stick self-center you can get into third and forth. But if you drive like any normal person and don't give a 2 second wait after second it either sticks in second or sticks in third and jambs up. If it sticks in second you get a BOOM and it pops out and you can shift again, If you shift at any fast rate the gear knob wont go into third

Feel free to abuse me for not having the guy sort the shift forks

Any other suggestions? Do you think its the shift forks? Something internal in the trans? or the older slightly worn action of the shifter?

Any suggestions most appreciated. Reminder, This box shifted perfectly (aside from popping out of gear) before my guys touched it.

Thanks, Peter Cavallo

Hey Peter,

Have you tried contacting David Kee? Here's his website:

https://www.4speedtoploaders.com/

A buddy of mine just turned me onto him and said that he's rebuilt 4 toploaders and an aluminum T-10 for him. David is masterful from what I've heard, and he makes all his own parts for the entire transmission. He might be worth a call to help with troubleshooting or ordering parts. I'm going to use him for a T-10 that is popping out of 2nd gear when not accelerating.

Hope this helps! ☺️

That's a damn good idea.  Thank you

To be honest I order my Toploader rebuild kits from him and never thought T10S would be his bag

Regards.  PETER

  Peter,
    All that is needed to stop the popping out of gear is use of the 'hooked" sliders.  This latest issue sounds like the shifter is not adjusted correctly. Is there anything that could be limiting the shift / gear engagement?
   Randy

Hello Folks

I asked david Kee and his words were basically he doesnt have anything to do with them as parts are hard to find and even after rebuild they tend to pop out of gear

So an update. I had another guy look at it and his feeling was that the shifter mechanism was worn out. It was fairly loose, levers rattled around a bit.

So today I swapped the shifter base for a very good used unit
Nice and tight

Immediately the shifting action felt awesome. Took the car for a ride and probably went five miles without an issue. Full acelleration1-2-3-4 shifting, fast, slow. Excellent

Then slowed down and shifted into second and would not go in, then went in and wouldn't come out.  It finally came out and performed perfect again

I then had a coworker drive the car.  Maybe five 1-2-3-4 shiftsnin it did the same thing, either wouldn't go in 2nd gear or stuck in 2nd gear. Then Bang, comes out of 2nd and shifts fine again

Thanks Randy for your comments

It's no longer popping out of gear as it was previously

I am wondering if you are right and maybe the rods are hanging up on something

The shifterwas set up with a 1/4 rod and in neutral

   When you have to shift slowly and deliberately , it is usually the shifter on a T-10 . There aren't any rails or detents in the shifting mechanism.  There is only a small interlock pin in the cover and is not the source of your problem.
      Randy

Peter,

Your problem is probably different than the problem I had but I had similar symptoms.  Mine started out where I could net get it out of reverse.  I found that by shifting a certain way I could fairly repeatably get it out of reverse. After a while things got worse and I was having a hard time getting out of 3rd an 4th back into 2nd and 1st.  So at this point I decided I needed to dig in and see what the issue was.  After much exploring and trouble shooting I determined that I was missing the two washers that compress the rubber grommets used in mounting the shifter to the shift mechanism.  I had replaced the rubber grommets about a year ago and did not realize there was suppose to be washers.  When those grommets wore out very prematurely I could tell the hex head of the shoulder bolt was doing a number on the rubber.  I bought a hardware kit complete with washers and got new grommets and my shifter has never felt better.

Corey

Thanks Gents

The shifter mechanism has now been changed and the shifting action is lovely. Nice and tight and direct. When the box is playing ball it shifts as nice as any other. Its just now and then that it sticks in 2nd and won't come out until BANG and it pops out and returns to shifting nicely.

Also. just had an email from the guy who drove it after me and he said it tried going into reverse a few times when shifting into first

Does anyone have some TNT?

Cheers. Peter

Hi, I agree completely with Corey. I had no washers on my shifter handle to shifting mechanism and it felt so indirect and barely went into gear. The rubber grommets where shot, initially I replaced just them but no real change. I could see the handle pivoting and moving on the mechanism. 2 lock washers later and she shifts like a dream.
I am glad you sorted out one issue. But all t10 owners with original handles need lack washers

Cheers

Quote from: GT350Lad on July 09, 2019, 04:22:45 PM
Hi, I agree completely with Corey. I had no washers on my shifter handle to shifting mechanism and it felt so indirect and barely went into gear. The rubber grommets where shot, initially I replaced just them but no real change. I could see the handle pivoting and moving on the mechanism. 2 lock washers later and she shifts like a dream.
I am glad you sorted out one issue. But all t10 owners with original handles need lack washers

Cheers

The washers should be thick flat washers (NOT Lock Washers!)   with same ID as the OD  of the locking special hex bolt.  if the shifter bolts bottom out the shifter will flop around - add washers until it gets tight without the bolts bottoming out

Yes the flat washer serves two important purposes. First it distributes the load on the grommet more evenly than the smaller hex head of the bolt. Secondly sense the bolt bottoms out on the shoulder not the grommet the washer compresses the rubber grommet far more than without it making the grommet far stiffer. This is why it is also the important to have the correct fairly thick washer.

Thanks Jim, I'll fix that up to flat washers, at least I had the idea right  ;)

Just to clarify, even at my age I don't have a floppy shifter :-)

Quote from: pmustang on July 10, 2019, 01:44:54 AM
Just to clarify, even at my age I don't have a floppy shifter :-)

Haha there is tablets for that! If only there was simple blue tablet to fix a T-10!

There IS a 'simple blue tablet' to fix a T-10 (shifter)!

(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/52-070719181950.jpeg)

that is one sexy bit of kit

I haven't worked on it today but am thinking either the synchro is getting stuck to the gear or there is a mechanical interference on the 2nd gear rod

   look at the linkage carefully.  IF you still suspect the synchro , pull the side cover and try to move the slider by hand in and out of second.
      Randy

Quote from: SFM66H on July 10, 2019, 07:12:14 AM
There IS a 'simple blue tablet' to fix a T-10 (shifter)!

(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/52-070719181950.jpeg)

That is one good looking blue pill!

Thanks - it could be yours! I'm taking it to the convention tomorrow...

Kieth
920-819-1609

Update

Got the car on a lift, got it stuck in gear

Lifted the car and looked underneath.  Everything clear, nothing touching the levers or rods.  So not a interference issue

Removed the rods off the shifter, shifter easily moved so not the shifter,  levers on trans won't move

Gotta be inside the trans

Sometimes it's jammed solid others it's like the lever moves but definitely rubbing inside

Trans is with the guy who built it now for diagnosis

thanks for sticking with me on this

Thanks for the update. I'm sure I'm not the only one lurking on this thread hoping to learn something.

Steve

Thanks, not been back to work yet

The guy who built the trans doesn't seem to excited to dig into it again.  I am sure it will need to go to someone else but giving him a shot

Will reveal the outcome when I know

Okay, Went to work today and the trans guy had the trans apart. I took a new (from the Scott drake kit) syncro and put it against the gear cone and gave it a twist with some pressure. Locked on it tight!

I am NO trans rebuilder so can't say that is definitely not how it should go but it sure locked on there tight.

So the trans guy lapped the syncros onto the gear cone with some lapping paste as suggested by an "expert" on you tube with a video about this very issue.

Trans will go back in tomorrow and hopefully the issue will be sorted. 

Cheers. Peter

Maybe not the answer you want to hear but I have thrown in the towel

I spoke to many folks, I tried several ideas (last being the lapping of the syncros onto the gear cones) changed the shifter mechanism, new clutch, still CRAP

I mean garbage. Stuck in 2nd, stuck in 3rd, then can't get a gear. nightmare

God knows the hours and money lost at this point so pulled another T10 from another car (and a toploader went into that car) so the car gets a known good T10

I don't know if it was the new syncros, the builder....just at a total loss

I have followed along with this topic thread.
Very interesting problem.
Biggest problem I ever had with any T-10, was popping out of gear.
Seemed, if I recall correctly, popped out more so when letting off the gas.

To your issue;
Seems you have patiently taken all avenues of approach, bummer that it still is acting up.

My thoughts are quite basic about it.

You mentioned that you did take it back to the business / person that rebuilt it, correct ?
were the thrusts tolerances blue printed to spec ?
were any gears replaced?
Herein may be the problem?
Respectfully submitted,
John

 I'm sorry you aren't over here in the states as I know I can fix it. Sticking in gear has nothing to do with the brass. It should always pull back into neutral even if the brass was stuck onto the gear you were in. Putting it in neutral would free up all of the brass as the gears remain in motion but the output shaft isn't connected.
     Randy

Hello John

Before touching it the gearbox was sweet,  both myself and the cars buyer drove it strongly and we both commented on how well it drove and shifted. 

The issue came when I drove t later a longer distance.  running at a set speed while in gear it would pop out.

Only parts replaced in the rebuild (gearbox looked near new inside) were the main layshaft needle bearings and the synchros

This guy rebuilds my Toploaders and each has been tip top. 

After the first jamming in gear incindent the gear box locked up, then it was taken apart again, synchros lapped, then it was even worse.  My business partner who is an engineer said he was amazed at the inner surfaces of the synchros,  pretty sharp edges

NOTE the gearbox guy is not a gearbox expert and doesn't proport to be but is a Ford Engineer who builds race cars

Thanks for your comments

You mentioned that you did take it back to the business / person that rebuilt it, correct ?
were the thrusts tolerances blue printed to spec ?
were any gears replaced?
Herein may be the problem?
Respectfully submitted,
John
[/quote]

Quote from: gt350hr on July 18, 2019, 11:08:54 AM
I'm sorry you aren't over here in the states as I know I can fix it. Sticking in gear has nothing to do with the brass. It should always pull back into neutral even if the brass was stuck onto the gear you were in. Putting it in neutral would free up all of the brass as the gears remain in motion but the output shaft isn't connected.
     Randy

Hello Randy, I am sure you could do it while sleeping...:-)

For me t was a financial (although my solution was quite expensive) and mental decision.  I researched, asked here, there and everywhere.  Labour to take the thing out twice...you know the score

I would love to know why this happened but at this point I have to walk away

Thanks for your assist on this

Mostly the box would stick in 2nd,  athe gear lever could be moved around and third and forth attempted but it would be stuck in second and then it would go bang, come out of gear  and third and forth would be selectable

P mustang,
If a gear set had been replaced, perhaps the gear angle and cut was miscalculated by the manufacturer.
But beings no gears were replaced, that discounts that possible theory.

So little was replaced I can only think....actually I can't think of what is wrong :-)

We had a strange issue with gears a while back, I had a car with a factory 9 inch rear. The existing ratio in the car was all wrong for the engines power. I purchased a complete 9 inch gear set from a guy here that was unused, in the original packaging and with all the gubbins to install. It was from Currie, The package had their return address and it was brand new. Sat on his shelf for quite some time, Unmarked, as new

I had a drag race garage install it and he called me and said it was machined wrong, he could not get it to leave a proper pattern. He is extremely well known for what he does so I have to trust his statement. Brand new gear supplied by a major rear end company and defective out of the box.

As mentioned, no gears swapped in this trans.

It has got to be something crazy simple as the box shifted perfectly before the synchros and needles were replaced

Only posting this to show when it rains it pours

So upon giving up on the T10 in the car it was decided to pull a T10 from a car we had in stock,

So the whole T10, shifter, Rods and shifter handle were transferred.

Drove the car today, pops out of 2nd and 3rd.

It is like a nightmare car.

I will be staying away from T10s in the future.

Cheers. Peter

Quote from: pmustang on July 18, 2019, 05:25:02 PM

Brand new gear supplied by a major rear end company and defective out of the box.

     That wouldn't be a first, I assure you!        :o


     Don't be turned off on B.W. T10's as they were a good transmission in their time.  And, here in the peanut gallery we all await your solution to your endeavor, as none of our knuckles are getting bruised in the process (where that popcorn icon thingy?). 

     As long as your having fun R & R ing transmissions, and you should be getting proficient at the task (always look at the bright side!) , and since you have the advantage of spares (what luck!), my I suggest taking the side shift side cover assembly from the second unit (that "pops" out of gear) and install on the first that gets stuck in 2nd gear, and test the function. Perhaps at least in this test one could rule out the shift mechanism anyway.     

     Unfortunately, the solution to the issue will require hands-on observation, and this makes it impossible for the solution to come from a forum, but perhaps some thought may be provided which may spark the investigation and solution, perhaps?       ???

     Scott.

     

     

In the end the customer was extremely appreciative of my complete transparency from the get go with the issues. When he test drove the car it performed flawlessly and it was only after that it popped out of gear. To be fair the test drive was lots of up and down shifting without a continued run at one speed so when I drove it later it showed its issue. I went after an issue he was unaware of and he appreciated that I did. The issues that followed, god knows the cause but in the end he wants the car regardless of the dropping out of gear and I gave him the original and the replacement trans so he has something to sell to recoup any further costs

My main issue is that I still am clueless as to the issue with the first gearbox sticking.

The huge annoyance is 1) not being able to sort the issue
2) Not knowing what the issue is.

Cheers for sticking with me folks, I am sure I will have more "fun" in the future

Cheers. Peter

I think I now know why my GT350 has a 5 speed an its original T10 is on the shelf :-)

Okay, at long last. The end of the T10 saga

I got a visit from the customer today, he brought back the T10 we installed in his car to get him motoring (yes that one popped out of gear as well)

So he had brought it original VIN stamped T10 (car is a GT) to a specialist for rebuilding. So he rebuilt it again and installed it in the car.....still popped out of gear!!!

So he ordered......Hooked sliders, installed them and all sorted. Perfect. Will not pop out of gear.

So the prize goes to gt350hr for his suggestion. I had told the customer about this thread and the suggestion but it took some time to actually happen.

Not a cheap rebuild but the car is magic as per the customer

Just wanted to post a final time here to show it was sorted

Thanks, Peter

Glad you and your customer have sorted out the issue. It's terrific that the experts (here) had the knowledge. Have been following the thread.

Great to see a win on this!

    Peter,
      VERY glad you solved the problem. The T-10 is a very nice "driving" transmission for everything BUT all out drag racing. It's 1950's design ( no surprise) wasn't ready for tires that didn't spin when the clutch was "dumped". I actually prefer it in a road race application with a "respectful" driver. Another great ending.
   Randy

Cheers all,  thanks Randy, wanted you to see your solution was correct :-)

Further to this post. I am now in the US and would like to buy hooked sliders as per Randy's suggestion for the "other" T10 I have

Can anyone tell me if this is a super T10 or
T10 so I order the right ones

Thank you.  Peter

  That is a "regular but the sliders are all the same except for the "keys" or dogs . Small bump , stamped steel, ( same as Muncie) or big bump solid cast ( usually early). The central groove has to match the width of the bump on the dogs. Do an internet search for Anaheim Gear for a good deal on sliders . Pat or Eric are great guys to deal with. I buy all of my trans parts there. Walking distance from my house
   Randy

Thank you Randy

Sounds like I need at least the cover off my trans to determine what I need?

Thanks once again for your sage advice

Once I am back in the U.K. I will contact your recommendation

Peter

      Peter the type of "dogs" can be determined with the removal of the cover fir sure. The stamped ( small bump) dogs have visibly rounded edges , where the "wide bump" version has sharper edges because they are "cast".