SAAC Forum

The Cars => CSX 3000 Series => Topic started by: eltee on May 18, 2019, 07:10:06 AM

Title: Mecum Indy
Post by: eltee on May 18, 2019, 07:10:06 AM
A question for this laconic forumasking for opinions on why 1 apparently well restored 427 sells for $2.2m and another apparently well restored 427 no sales for $1.2m.....? Thoughts? Comments?
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: shelbydoug on May 18, 2019, 08:16:57 AM
Cobra buyers were always fickle. 2.2 seems to be a new high? Auctions always were subject to buying passion

As our friend Ned told me, it's a different clientele and the higher they go, the better the investment is. Million dollar cars are a different animal and now are just part of a portfolio.

Still Ferarri GTO's are 50 million and the owners drive 'em and wreck 'em racing. I guess that's the Richard Branfords of the world. Lots of billionaires out there looking for their jollies.

Kind of like the main character in the Thomas Crown Affair?
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: CSX2259 on May 18, 2019, 08:00:16 PM
A question for this laconic forumasking for opinions on why 1 apparently well restored 427 sells for $2.2m and another apparently well restored 427 no sales for $1.2m.....? Thoughts? Comments?

You would have to pour over the history of each car and then inspect each car in person (or have a knowledgeable inspector) in question for negative or positive attributes, was the car ever converted to S/C specifications, accidents, how original does the car present itself (hoses, clamps, nuts and bolts, etc, etc). After doing your research then you can then start comparing one cars value to another.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: A-Snake on May 18, 2019, 08:39:24 PM
CSX3173 would be the benchmark to use to compare other restored 427 street cars. I seriously doubt another one could be restored to the same detail.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: CSX2259 on May 19, 2019, 12:59:30 PM
They can be restored to the same level, it just takes, patience, time and $$$$.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: Dan Case on May 19, 2019, 01:36:11 PM
They can be restored to the same level, it just takes, patience, time and $$$$.

In the case of CSX3173, at least as it was before Steven passed, not likely unless somebody has another complete carpet set removed from a brand new 427 Cobra in 1966 and carefully stored it. Or a set of new car take off tires and wheels carefully stored since the mid 1960s. It was a miracle that Steven tracked down new car take off soft trim. I thought it was a miracle when I found, on one of my parts hunting trips, the new car take off set of tires and wheels that were very carefully stored all those decades.  The coolant and heater hoses were good ones AC and Shelby installed on new 427 Cobras that Steven tracked down and purchased. How many 427 Cobra owners kept, saved, and carefully stored coolant hoses? Not only did parts hunting mean finding original 427 Cobra parts but some are unique to CSX31xx cars. Or any other of the no so durable parts or materials? Not many most likely. The outer body paint is new but even the license plates were ones the car wore long ago. 

Steven filtered the Cobra parts world hunting anything that car was missing and he pretty much cleaned out quite a few former 427 Cobra owners of left over parts. Most people probably won't hunt just the right piece for any missing piece for ten years or more; Steven did on most of the cars in his collection even the Opel Manta Rallye.
 
Yes you could make another CSX31xx car look similar, I have helped find original and replacement parts for other CSX31xx cars, but with mass quantities of reproduction parts, replacement will work parts including lots of fasteners, and many other replacement materials. New old stock or excellent used 1960s British anything is super rare now. Late summer fall Galaxie R Code engine parts are not stuffed in every old car owner's garage. Parts Shelby American came up with have been obsolete for many decades also.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: Special Ed on May 19, 2019, 02:37:39 PM
Dan Case should have been given lots of credit for all his help on the cobras.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: Dan Case on May 19, 2019, 03:03:11 PM
Dan Case should have been given lots of credit for all his help on the cobras.

It was my pleasure Ed. Steven thanked me and several other people often. What we, several of us, learned researching and working on all four cars got shared with other owners and restorers including cars going all the way to the Pebble Beach big time. Example: I have been helping three other CSX31xx car owners this month with information we learned during the CSX3173 project.

Steven made hunting parts fun. Finding a correct tiny part you could hide in your hand made him just as happy as finding a set of perfect wheels. Steven even made trips to the UK visiting shops and private parties with a history of working with the cars to hunt the small parts almost always missing from the cars.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: A-Snake on May 19, 2019, 07:44:39 PM
I wonder who bought this? ;) https://www.mecum.com/lots/RM0519-382844/hurst-dealer-board/
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: prototypefan on May 19, 2019, 08:45:14 PM
I wonder who bought this? ;) https://www.mecum.com/lots/RM0519-382844/hurst-dealer-board/


Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: silverton_ford on May 20, 2019, 12:37:56 AM
I wonder who bought this? ;) https://www.mecum.com/lots/RM0519-382844/hurst-dealer-board/

Sold for $708!
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: Dmxf on May 20, 2019, 08:02:11 AM
CSX3173 would be the benchmark to use to compare other restored 427 street cars. I seriously doubt another one could be restored to the same detail.

Jim, is "restored" even the right description? That term is tends to be typically used on cars that are redone with mainly newly made components. They almost always have all new inner panels, replacement fiberglass pieces, often new bodies, aftermarket engine detail pieces, etc, etc. While I'm not extensively familiar with every aspect of 3173 when Steven purchased it, I understand it was maybe 90% original and just required essentially some detail items and paint. The categorizations are never pure and simple as there are a spectrum of scenarios, but 3173 seems to be more of a sympathetically massaged survivor. Heck, even renowned 427 survivor 3346 has had some parts replaced and paint work, etc
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: Dmxf on May 20, 2019, 08:18:41 AM
They can be restored to the same level, it just takes, patience, time and $$$$.

In the case of CSX3173, at least as it was before Steven passed, not likely unless somebody has another complete carpet set removed from a brand new 427 Cobra in 1966 and carefully stored it. Or a set of new car take off tires and wheels carefully stored since the mid 1960s. It was a miracle that Steven tracked down new car take off soft trim. I thought it was a miracle when I found, on one of my parts hunting trips, the new car take off set of tires and wheels that were very carefully stored all those decades.  The coolant and heater hoses were good ones AC and Shelby installed on new 427 Cobras that Steven tracked down and purchased. How many 427 Cobra owners kept, saved, and carefully stored coolant hoses? Not only did parts hunting mean finding original 427 Cobra parts but some are unique to CSX31xx cars. Or any other of the no so durable parts or materials? Not many most likely. The outer body paint is new but even the license plates were ones the car wore long ago. 


Dan, while 3173 is exceptional, it's not perfect. As one example, the footbox thermal blanket is not correct.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: nate on May 20, 2019, 08:23:56 AM
Memorabilia went crazy (especially the Ford/Autolite) and then you had to add the premium and sales tax.

I wonder who bought this? ;) https://www.mecum.com/lots/RM0519-382844/hurst-dealer-board/

Sold for $708!

I believe Freddy ended up with this sign.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: Dan Case on May 20, 2019, 10:52:23 AM
Mike is correct, the CSX3173 project wasn't what almost anybody would call a restoration.  Outer body  refinishing was pretty much mandatory for Steven as prior owners had changed colors.  It was complete enough and good enough condition original parts wise it could be cleaned up, serviced, missing items replaced, and worn items replaced.

Some subjects can only go so far before what people think of as restoration starts.  Clean up the underside well is preservation work. Changing fluids, lubricating the chassis moving parts, new gaskets in carburetors, so on and so forth is maintenance. Total dismantling and starting to strip parts and refinishing them heads down the restoration path that can be hard to stop. How many people have started to fix just one or two items on a car to one day realize they have completely dismantled it and almost every part gets redone or replaced in some way or another….restoration.

The car was not “restored” in the common usage meaning.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: Dmxf on May 20, 2019, 06:48:30 PM
And even limited restoration or parts replacement can have an altering effect on the car, which is why it's better if nothing is touched, if possible. I believe if you look closely at the suspension rod ends on 3173 you will find they are later British replacements (the replacement forgings are different from the assembly line ones). I haven't looked close enough at the car to know whether it still retains the original date coded Girling brake cylinders, but just rebuilding those can even get into revealing details. The shape of the dust boots that cover the end where the push rod comes out changed along Girling production and if aftermarket kits are used they don't have the Girling markings, etc. When it comes down to it there are thousands of subtle areas on Cobras that can reveal what was altered and it becomes very, very difficult for anyone touching the car to keep it exactly as delivered. Even Steven had limits and I know, for example, he didn't worry much about things you couldn't see, like internal engine components. Anyone really looking to bring a car back to true "day one" could have a daunting task of making sure they used the nylon tooth cam gear, Fomoco stamped bearings, and a long list of other things. It all comes down to how far becomes beyond sane.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: shelbymann1970 on May 20, 2019, 08:25:16 PM
Cobra buyers were always fickle. 2.2 seems to be a new high? Auctions always were subject to buying passion

As our friend Ned told me, it's a different clientele and the higher they go, the better the investment is. Million dollar cars are a different animal and now are just part of a portfolio.

Still Ferarri GTO's are 50 million and the owners drive 'em and wreck 'em racing. I guess that's the Richard Branfords of the world. Lots of billionaires out there looking for their jollies.

Kind of like the main character in the Thomas Crown Affair?
2.2 million street car owned by Steve Juliano. 5 owner car. So I sent the pic I took of it sold at Mecum to my friend Paul who is the second owner of an original paint street Cobra. He turned down 1.6 a few years ago while on loan to the Gilmore Museum. So does the Juliano name makes the silver one worth more than my friend's original paint dark green one?
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: shelbydoug on May 20, 2019, 09:44:22 PM
I think everything effects what a potential buyer sees? Was it a Renoir that Crown stole in the story?

I know that auctioneers will tell you that it's possible that the picture frame could effect the results?

Maybe the collector needed a silver one and already had a green one?

The oxygen at different altitudes effects judgement drastically. I wouldn't know. I'm wrestling around here in the dirt with my dandelions.  :)
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: Cobra Ned on May 20, 2019, 10:30:31 PM



[/quote]2.2 million street car owned by Steve Juliano. 5 owner car. So I sent the pic I took of it sold at Mecum to my friend Paul who is the second owner of an original paint street Cobra. He turned down 1.6 a few years ago while on loan to the Gilmore Museum. So does the Juliano name makes the silver one worth more than my friend's original paint dark green one?
[/quote]

Who knows? Maybe with the right promotion, Paul's car might bring similar money today.
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: Special Ed on May 21, 2019, 01:38:30 PM
Shelbyman1970  was pauls green cobra a 428  or a 427  2x4 likes steves silver cobra ?
Title: Re: Mecum Indy
Post by: Hertz74 on May 21, 2019, 02:38:06 PM
I just saw Mecums semi on I-75 an M-59 Pontiac Mi, going north on 75. It had 65 Shelby pictures on the sides.   Someone is getting a car