Hello all.
I recently located and purchased a 1967 GT350 which was modified into a B/FX straight front axle drag racer sometime around late 1968 or early 1969. I'm currently looking for any history that I can find on the car.
Supposedly the car was parked in 69 or 70 and has been sitting since. The original color is White and the car had blue stripes. The car shows traces of a cheap silver repaint at some point and was stripped of most of its Shelby parts. After that someone painted the car flat black with a paint brush. I've been slowly wiping the painted layers away with lacquer thinner to reveal the original white paint with blue stripes and acquiring a few OEM replacement parts for the body.
The modifications to the car were extreme as you can see in the pictures. The original engine, front apron, clip and doors are gone and replaced with a square tube frame and fiberglass components, thus leaving the car with no visible VIN to help identify itself...Unfortunately the previous owner was a hoarder of sorts and had passed away by the time I found the car so the history is non-existent at this point. I've located many of the body sheet metal stamp dates which are all seem to fall in mid Feb/67.
If there is anyone from the Chicago area who has any information or remembers seeing a straight axle Shelby racing at the old US030 dragway, please get ahold of me or post here.
I'll attach a couple pictures of the car to this post.
Suggest you start by contacting the SAAC '67 Registrar Dave Mathews:
dmathews"at" prodigy.net
Great find, thanks for posting some images!!
Do you know the name(s) of any previous owners?
I've been in contact with Dave M. and also with Randy Delisio. They have both been extremely helpful and provided a great deal of assistance in trying to verify if the car is a true early Shelby. While both believe that its a Shelby, we just don't know which one it is at this point. As I mentioned prior, the previous owner had unexpectedly passed away and any names or history have been lost. The car was purchased from the legal rep of the estate last October.
Yes, great find. Not sure I would've wanted to drive/race it back in the day, given the placement/angle of the steering wheel.
What are your plans for the car?
Quote from: Thomas on June 19, 2019, 11:55:34 AM
I've been in contact with Dave M. and also with Randy Delisio. They have both been extremely helpful and provided a great deal of assistance in verifying that the car is a true early Shelby. As I mentioned prior, the previous owner had unexpectedly passed away and any names or history have been lost. I purchased the car from the legal rep of the estate.
Good - can you say the Shelby VIN number?
Quote from: Side-Oilers on June 19, 2019, 11:58:11 AM
Yes, great find. Not sure I would've wanted to drive/race it back in the day, given the placement/angle of the steering wheel.
What are your plans for the car?
^^^ yes to both
Honestly, I'm not sure what to do with it. On one hand I know its a very unique race car with all period correct components and it should be restored by someone who really knows these cars inside and out. On the other hand, I'd really enjoy trying to get this monster in working order to attend a few shows with it. Most likely I will continue to collect the correct parts to save the car while trying to find a good home for it.
As of now I don't have the Shelby tag number. Still following up a few more leads to try and figure what it is.
Cool car!!! That being said,if the Ford/Shelby serial #s are gone for all practical purposes (representation,sale,etc.) what you have is essentially a modified mustang..Hate to burst your bubble but that's how we keep the "breed" strong.Be very careful how you represent the car Especially for registration purposes.You could easily run into legal woes...Good luck!!!
Quote from: 557 on June 19, 2019, 12:34:31 PM
Cool car!!! That being said,if the Ford/Shelby serial #s are gone for all practical purposes (representation,sale,etc.) what you have is essentially a modified mustang..Hate to burst your bubble but that’s how we keep the “breed” strong.Be very careful how you represent the car Especially for registration purposes.You could easily run into legal woes...Good luck!!!
I agree to a point. The good part is that when you're dealing with Shelby there are several unique tell tale signs that help to verify the authenticity of the origin. I've had it reviewed and verified by the best experts that I could find. I was amazed at the individual unique differences that they were able to identify. I'm confident that if it were to sell to an educated Shelby enthusiast, he would know exactly what he has.
As of now I'm just starting my search & hoping for the best. Maybe someone will recognize the car and provide some information.
Good luck with this. Might not be an easy car to verify. I'm assuming the original fender aprons are long gone? No scrap pieces? They look like they've been removed for the flip top. That means the original Ford Vin's are gone.
I ran into a recent situation with a 1965 GT350 here in North Carolina. A gentleman has a car he claims is an original SHELBY, but it has a flip front end like this. Vin plate long gone, along with original drivetrain. According to Howard, he's out of luck on that one.
Quote from: Thomas on June 19, 2019, 11:55:34 AM
I've been in contact with Dave M. and also with Randy Delisio. They have both been extremely helpful and provided a great deal of assistance in verifying that the car is a true early Shelby. As I mentioned prior, the previous owner had unexpectedly passed away and any names or history have been lost. I purchased the car from the legal rep of the estate.
I would also be careful on implying that Dave Mathews has verified the car as a Shelby, as in "provided a great deal of assistance in verifying that the car is a true early Shelby." You can understand how easily that could be misinterpreted by a casual reader as confirmation of some sort or another. Without the Ford VIN and without the Shelby VIN all you have is a modified Mustang with a interesting however unsubstantiated history as a possible Shelby. Unfortunately I dare say that there are more stories like that floating around then there were cars produced in 67 at Shelby.
Good point. Until the VIN or the Shelby tag is located, only an expert would truly know what it is.
I've modified the wording to better represent the status. I would definitely never want to mislead anyone nor misrepresent the car.
Quote from: Thomas on June 19, 2019, 01:11:00 PM
Good point. Until the VIN or the Shelby tag is located, only an expert would truly know what it is.
I've modified the wording to better represent the status. I would definitely never want to mislead anyone nor misrepresent the car.
There is supposed to be a "Hidden VIN#" on the Car that only Law Enforcement knows of the locations so you might start with you local Law Enforcements Auto Theft Division to see if they can help. I remember a TV show where 3 Teams were given Money (I think $5,000) and they were taken to a Auto Salvage Yard. They have to buy a Vehicle, fix it up and then sell it. The team with the most profit wins. on one Show, a Team bought a decent White 66 Mustang Coupe with a 6 Cyl. One member had a weird feeling about the car and decided to call the Local Law Enforcement. They showed up and made everyone leave the Shop, including the Camera People so they can find the Hidden VIN#. After about 30 Minutes they walked out and told them the bad news. The Car was reported Stolen a while back and they had to take it. Needless to say, that team LOST.
A couple of observations from my easy chair here in California. First , B/FX did NOT allow flip front ends AND original factory inner fender wells HAD to be intact. Aluminum interiors were not allowed in A, B or C initially and then only S/FX , the altered wheelbase and tube chassis cars. So , with all respect to Randy Delisio, "I" believe this car was run in C or D/Gas class back then depending on cubic inches. There was a former football player named Ralph Head that ran a similar looking '66 fast back in MI I don't know if there is a connection or if he is still alive. Local track rules VS real NHRA rules could have allowed it to run in B/FX but it's a stretch. "I" would look for clues on the engine / transmission / chassis mods as to who may have been involved there. Certain shops had their own unique ways of doing things. Many well known "local" cars never got any recognition outside of their area . That makes it tougher to document. Posting the name of the hoarder might get you some help.
Randy
The car actually has "F/FX" written on the inside of the lexan windshield and the engine is set back quite a bit in the chassis. Is it possible that F/FX was the correct class?
As far as Randy, He didn't specify anything about the race class of the car. He just helped me to identify the unique Shelby aspects of the car.
Quote from: tesgt350 on June 19, 2019, 01:43:49 PM
Quote from: Thomas on June 19, 2019, 01:11:00 PM
Good point. Until the VIN or the Shelby tag is located, only an expert would truly know what it is.
I've modified the wording to better represent the status. I would definitely never want to mislead anyone nor misrepresent the car.
There is supposed to be a "Hidden VIN#" on the Car that only Law Enforcement knows of the locations so you might start with you local Law Enforcements Auto Theft Division to see if they can help. I remember a TV show where 3 Teams were given Money (I think $5,000) and they were taken to a Auto Salvage Yard. They have to buy a Vehicle, fix it up and then sell it. The team with the most profit wins. on one Show, a Team bought a decent White 66 Mustang Coupe with a 6 Cyl. One member had a weird feeling about the car and decided to call the Local Law Enforcement. They showed up and made everyone leave the Shop, including the Camera People so they can find the Hidden VIN#. After about 30 Minutes they walked out and told them the bad news. The Car was reported Stolen a while back and they had to take it. Needless to say, that team LOST.
FYI the hidden VIN numbers are common knowledge now days and covered in places like the SAAC Registry. In this case the front aprons needed to be intact for the information to be found.Original engine and transmission can be but not always be a source for the information. Unfortunately that is not helpful in this situation.
Thomas,
I take it that you did get a title when you purchased It ?
If not, why ?
Did they provide " YOU " a bill of sale from whom they bought it from ?
Was it a family member >> or a widow that sold you the drag car? Surely they know something, old race pictures too.
Any old paper work may also help with finding a serial number, and or where it was at before he bought it to race>
Trace back old racers or families from the old tracks around you area. Again, you need to spend lots of time, which may lead absolutely no where.
These are all but a few scenarios you need to start on.
No serial number. means you own an old cut up mustang drag car.
An expert can identify modifications "" that may or may not have been done at Shelby's place. """
respectfully submitted,
John
Thank you for the help Bob.
I've about exhausted all of the standard sources trying to I.D. the car. Everyone has been so helpful. This site was my next logical step. There seems to be a wealth of knowledge here and just maybe someone might have the key to who built the car or who may have raced it....
The one document that I do have is dated 3/21/1969 and ties the car to a "Ericksons Speed Shop" in Chicago. Its a receipt from Hilborn for the purchase and set up of the injection intake manifold and fuel system. Unfortunately it doesn't state the person who is buying the unit.
Thomas the lowest NHRA class was C/FX and it was short lived due to almost zero participation except the two Ford sponsored Galaxies driven by Bill Hoefer and Ed Terry. Is that fuel injection or Webers ? the picture is too small for me to see.
Randy
Randy, It's a Hilborn injection unit set-up for gas. It was purchased 3/21/1969
It doesn't appear to be from looking at one of the pics you posted, but are the original floors and rear wheel well housings still intact or has the car been tubbed?
Quote from: Thomas on June 19, 2019, 02:29:18 PM
Thank you for the help Bob.
I've about exhausted all of the standard sources trying to I.D. the car. Everyone has been so helpful. This site was my next logical step. There seems to be a wealth of knowledge here and just maybe someone might have the key to who built the car or who may have raced it....
The one document that I do have is dated 3/21/1969 and ties the car to a "Ericksons Speed Shop" in Chicago. Its a receipt from Hilborn for the purchase and set up of the injection intake manifold and fuel system. Unfortunately it doesn't state the person who is buying the unit.
The tell tale signs of a Shelby build can be duplicated . At the end of the day at best the details will confirm a most likely a Shelby scenario but not 100% for sure be cause another party could duplicate them regardless of how likely or not. The vin confirmation along with the other build details is what makes the difference that most skeptical parties can agree on.
Bottom line is...If the car was purchased on a Bill of Sale (no title) with no VIN's listed anywhere and without substantial documentation and history backing up the claims that the car is a Shelby...it's a Mustang race car. Did the sellers list a VIN on the Bill of Sale when you bought the car?
Quote from: George Schalk on June 19, 2019, 02:51:09 PM
It doesn't appear to be from looking at one of the pics you posted, but are the original floors and rear wheel well housings still intact or has the car been tubbed?
The floors from the back of the drivers seat to the tail panel are original. The car was never tubbed.
Quote from: Thomas on June 19, 2019, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: George Schalk on June 19, 2019, 02:51:09 PM
It doesn't appear to be from looking at one of the pics you posted, but are the original floors and rear wheel well housings still intact or has the car been tubbed?
The original floors from the back of the drivers seat to the trunk are original. The car was never tubbed.
Well that's good it has the original rear floors and wheel housings. Do you have any pics you can post of the inside of the rear floors and wheel housings? Any pics of the front side leaf spring mounts?
Here are a couple pictures of the areas that you requested. I can only post 4 pics per post.
here are a couple more.
Quote from: Thomas on June 19, 2019, 03:42:41 PM
Here are a couple pictures of the areas that you requested. I can only post 4 pics per post.
That's what I'm looking for. Very interesting!
So was the deceased owner the original owner of the car or was the family able to tell you when he got the car? You would think if the guy was a hoarder, he would've kept all of the cars history including race time slips, modifications done, even the removed parts.
From the pictures, it looks like a Lime Gold paint car and not white like you are thinking.
From what I was told, the guy had a lightweight Galaxie, a Thunderbolt and this car stuffed into his garage since 1970. He wasn't a restorer or a racer. He just collected old Ford parts. The car was purchased on a bill of sale from the family friend of the man who died. They sold off all of the cars and parts last October and and they were never able to find paperwork on any of them.
Its just the lighting. The car is definitely white.
his is the date stamp on the tail panel.
correct orientation to read. its upside down on the car.
Any sign of holes in upper scoops for as mounting of red lights on early cars?
On bottom side of wheel well sheet metal where leaf spring mounts is there holes drilled above it?
Any Vin numbers on Eng block ? below alt. and on transmission? They were stamped with a number and letter punch set
Quote from: Bob Gaines on June 19, 2019, 02:19:24 PM
Quote from: tesgt350 on June 19, 2019, 01:43:49 PM
Quote from: Thomas on June 19, 2019, 01:11:00 PM
Good point. Until the VIN or the Shelby tag is located, only an expert would truly know what it is.
I've modified the wording to better represent the status. I would definitely never want to mislead anyone nor misrepresent the car.
There is supposed to be a "Hidden VIN#" on the Car that only Law Enforcement knows of the locations so you might start with you local Law Enforcements Auto Theft Division to see if they can help. I remember a TV show where 3 Teams were given Money (I think $5,000) and they were taken to a Auto Salvage Yard. They have to buy a Vehicle, fix it up and then sell it. The team with the most profit wins. on one Show, a Team bought a decent White 66 Mustang Coupe with a 6 Cyl. One member had a weird feeling about the car and decided to call the Local Law Enforcement. They showed up and made everyone leave the Shop, including the Camera People so they can find the Hidden VIN#. After about 30 Minutes they walked out and told them the bad news. The Car was reported Stolen a while back and they had to take it. Needless to say, that team LOST.
FYI the hidden VIN numbers are common knowledge now days and covered in places like the SAAC Registry. In this case the front aprons needed to be intact for the information to be found.Original engine and transmission can be but not always be a source for the information. Unfortunately that is not helpful in this situation.
I know about the VIN#'s on all the Inner Fender Aprons, those I don't consider them "Hidden VIN#'s". The Detectives in the case I described above actually put on Cover All's to look for the VIN# saying they had to crawl under the Car.
if motor is Original (slim chance) would it have a ID number on side of block? and same goes for transmission?
Thanks for the pictures. A number of clues as to what the car was, 350 verses 500, automatic verses manual, likely build period, are visible. Sure Dave is working through all those data points.
This will help focus the possibilities but alone not lead to a specific car but maybe some possibilities
Good luck
Original tranny?That would help if a 4 speed,however all that you could determine from that is that it is an original Shelby trans.Unfortunately if you are missing the vins up front you will NEVER be able to determine if this car was originally a Shelby...Hence the car will never be valued comparably to a real authenticated car as ALL the Shelby unique details can be replicated..The upside is that you can thrash it to your hearts content on the strip and not worry about hammering a rare classic...Sad fact is that there are way more "1967 Shelby's " out there now than ever came out of San Jose/LAX in 1967(hence the healthy repop parts business)...As long as you didn't pay a "Shelby price"for it you are all good..Have fun with it.One caveat though:don't represent it as a real Shelby as that won't come off so well with us that have real(serial number verified cars)..Our cars are quite rare and imposters water down that rarity(if improperly represented)..Once they hacked off the front of that car the "genie left the bottle" and nothing (short of fraud)will entice said genie to renter said bottle.Again enjoy it as the "tribute"it is as IMHO fun is sorely underrated in today's society.....
If the transmission has the numbers stamped in it would that be a clue to what car is? and MAYBE traced back to original Shelby VIN? Just a long shot idea
Transmission can be switched between cars so "clue"yes,authentication no...Never known a car registered(or titled) by its tranny....
Also that isn't how you authenticate a 67.Dave M. needs both Ford and Shelby vins for that.No "fishing" allowed (Thank God)
I thought that Shelby's had there number stamped on a pad on transmission housing
Same with motors just a thought.. this guy needs all the help he can get and this might help
Quote from: JessC on June 19, 2019, 04:40:47 PM
I thought that Shelby's had there number stamped on a pad on transmission housing
Same with motors just a thought.. this guy needs all the help he can get and this might help
Sure Dave has asked and provided the basics without leading the "witness" at the same time. VIN stampings differed depending on a number of things but sure he had him check in any case and weighting the information provided.
Quote from: George Schalk on June 19, 2019, 03:55:00 PM
From the pictures, it looks like a Lime Gold paint car and not white like you are thinking.
Looks white to me. Guess we can just as Thomas what color the paint is in the quarter panel and the taillight panel pictures are in person.
Quote
There is supposed to be a "Hidden VIN#" on the Car that only Law Enforcement knows of the locations so you might start with you local Law Enforcements Auto Theft Division to see if they can help.
As Mr Gaines stated, there is no unknown or "hidden" VIN. Once the front clip is gone, you have a car without Shelby numbers. Short of a solid paperwork trail you wont find the numbers on the chassis. The car will be forever tainted in my opinion.
Quote from: Coralsnake on June 19, 2019, 04:46:22 PM
As Mr Gaines stated, there is no unknown or "hidden" VIN. Once the front clip is gone, you have a car without Shelby numbers. Short of a solid paperwork trail you wont find the numbers on the chassis. The car will be forever tainted in my opinion.
+1 as far as this year and model goes. Do have the books (NATB and others) that the investigators used during the era and my father taught classes on the subject during the same time period.
Another problem is that front clip may very well still be out there somewhere attached to another mustang...This is definitely one situation where "doubling your pleasure" is a very ,very bad idea...food for thought....
This will be a neat thread to keep an eye on.
Keep up the enthusiasm,...you might dig up more info as you proceed down the path.
I've had a few of these early cars torn down to almost every possible panel and there are no hidden VIN numbers other than what's on the front clip.
Other marques, like select 60s Chevy, have VINs on frames so if you perform a body VIN swap there is still the frame number.
My race car is a coupe converted to a fastback, back before kits. It has no VIN since a) I removed them b) race cars are not sold as street cars and only require a bill of sale c) It's made from two cars and many, many repopped panels so I couldn't decide what it should be.
So I gave it the name "The Hulk" and it just looks like a 65 fastback.
Quote from: Bigfoot on June 19, 2019, 08:52:10 PM
This will be a neat thread to keep an eye on.
Keep up the enthusiasm,...you might dig up more info as you proceed down the path.
Thank you so much for the encouragement! I really feel an obligation to try and find the true origins of this car. It's obviously been neglected and abused for 95% of its life so I'm going give it my best shot to solve the mystery.
Its a very unique car with tons of potential and if I can find its history than it will be worth the investment of a great restoration. I know many think that because of the missing VIN and Shelby tag its just a cut up Mustang, but I feel that its still showing enough of its originality to earn my respect.
Quote from: George Schalk on June 19, 2019, 03:52:41 PM
Quote from: Thomas on June 19, 2019, 03:42:41 PM
Here are a couple pictures of the areas that you requested. I can only post 4 pics per post.
That's what I'm looking for. Very interesting!
So was the deceased owner the original owner of the car or was the family able to tell you when he got the car? You would think if the guy was a hoarder, he would've kept all of the cars history including race time slips, modifications done, even the removed parts.
+1 . Yes the pictures tell a significant story IMO. Too bad more of the cars history didn't survive.
Quote from: Thomas on June 19, 2019, 11:11:44 PM
Its a very unique car with tons of potential and if I can find its history than it will be worth the investment of a great restoration.
I guess I'll be the first to say it, indeed a unique car, with tons of potential, but not restored as a Shelby, but a vintage race car, as that is what the car is. I'm not saying forget about your quest to see if it is or is not an original Shelby, as that is part of the lineage, but instead focus your attention on it's vintage race history as to me, that is where the real value will be.
Bill
It's real value is in going Really,Really Fast!!!IMHO 8)
...
Quote from: 557 on June 20, 2019, 06:56:29 AM
It’s real value is in going Really,Really Fast!!!IMHO 8)
LOL, I sure hope it does!
Its a bit scary to think about how fast these old guys used to go in these cars. This thing weighs less than a VW beetle and only has a paper thin fiberglass door to guard the driver from any impact. This was a built 289 car. I cannot even begin to imagine what it must have been like to have a modified 428 in one of these cars...
If he was the original owner and you have his full name, and hopefully the Address he lived at the time of purchase, the Date, or close to it, that he purchased it, check with the DMV in that City. Explain to them how you got it and that the Car was turned into a Drag Car and there are no VIN#'s that you can find and see if they can check their data base for a Ford, Mustang or Shelby that the Man purchased in 1967/1968 and have them run the VIN# to see if it is for your Car. They may do that for you if it means they can collect Tax & Tag Fee's.
Quote from: tesgt350 on June 20, 2019, 07:48:04 AM
If he was the original owner and you have his full name, and hopefully the Address he lived at the time of purchase, the Date, or close to it, that he purchased it, check with the DMV in that City. Explain to them how you got it and that the Car was turned into a Drag Car and there are no VIN#'s that you can find and see if they can check their data base for a Ford, Mustang or Shelby that the Man purchased in 1967/1968 and have them run the VIN# to see if it is for your Car. They may do that for you if it means they can collect Tax & Tag Fee's.
The man that passed away was not the original owner. He purchased the car as a race car and just parked it in his garage. Its been sitting since around 1970.
Thomas,
You are missing every bodies point.
It is up to you>> to start tracing the history from each past owner.
Race tracks, old dogs that are still around, etc
Ebay for old race pictures.
THAT my friend is how it is done.
I have researched many cars, and one in particular for 30 years.
Took me 27 years to find a picture of Harris with Shelby, two finally surfaced.
Records at the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Society, ACD, on Ben, found that out 3 months ago, long roads my friend!
So please, listen to what the guys herein know and do follow the bread crumbs.\
You seem to have the qualities & drive necessary for tedious Historical archival work.
Respectfully submitted,
John
Society of Automotive Historians
I used to race at US 30 dragstrip (outside Gary IN, actually it was outside Hobart IN, just north of US 30) and attended many Sunday race dates between 1971 and 1973 with my GT 350. I don't recall anything like this car there. But you said the car was in the garage since 1970.
US 30 was an AHRA tack, so the rules were different than NHRA. Mainly ran ET brackets unless it was a divisional AHRA race date.
A question: is that front end one piece fiberglass? or, is there a Shelby nose panel either on it, or loose from a additional pile of parts?
2nd thing: I sold a 302 out of a 68 GT Mustang to a member who bought and sold a lot of Shelby parts and cars in the early 1980's. In his yard, there was a 67 Shelby he bought, without those same inner fender panels. But I don't remember a staight axle. He will remain nameless, but I will PM him and ask to him look into your photos.
That my friend is a great find. Looking at the pictures of your car it appears to have been a MATCH RACER... Those modifications would not be appropriate for a small block race car of its time. B F/X is the little brother division to A F/X cars which were the fastest baddest division. You are looking possibly in the wrong direction because a small block is sitting in it now. It could have had a CAMMER or HIGH RISER from its time frame which would be even better to the vintage race car guys. Look up AL JONIAKS BATCAR... or LES RITCHIES LONG NOSE those would have been, what would have laid the foundation for what you have. The modifications would have many similarities such as the drivers position, and steering set up. If someone hacked up a SHELBY back in the day to go racing it may have a checkered past. There are a couple of guys on here that have race cars with a similar but different past... There will probably be more questions then answers but that is part of owning something unique. NICE GRAB... ;)
Quote from: 427heaven on June 20, 2019, 10:23:57 AM
That my friend is a great find. Looking at the pictures of your car it appears to have been a MATCH RACER... Those modifications would not be appropriate for a small block race car of its time. B F/X is the little brother division to A F/X cars which were the fastest baddest division. You are looking possibly in the wrong direction because a small block is sitting in it now. It could have had a CAMMER or HIGH RISER from its time frame which would be even better to the vintage race car guys. Look up AL JONIAKS BATCAR... or LES RITCHIES LONG NOSE those would have been, what would have laid the foundation for what you have. The modifications would have many similarities such as the drivers position, and steering set up. If someone hacked up a SHELBY back in the day to go racing it may have a checkered past. There are a couple of guys on here that have race cars with a similar but different past... There will probably be more questions then answers but that is part of owning something unique. NICE GRAB... ;)
Good point . The possibility exists that a stolen car was the basis for the build . A stolen specialty car less the three years old according to how long it was sitting ,after being striped might have to be re-purposed as a race car knowing it could never be sold on a legitimate title . Especially given it was less then three years old when it was converted.That 2 year plus old car would have substantial value back then. Another is that it was totaled with the front knocked off. Of course these are just a couple of countless scenarios you can think of but might be a viable angle to look into for records.
"A question: is that front end one piece fiberglass? or, is there a Shelby nose panel either on it, or loose from a additional pile of parts?"
It's a complete one piece front end.
Found something interesting today from the old "US-30 Dragway" archives pictures.....There are a lot of similarities.
Quality or lack there of will help provide an idea of its background also. Same goes with an inventory IMHO of the parts present and used. Was this soem home grown car or was it more professionally built? As mentioned there are allot of details, I've been down this road before also. Lots and lots of dead ends and possibly nothing.
If it has a name - records - and a great history it would be easier to find its past. Without it its just another Saturday night special.
Not that it can't be as much fun today but its more personal satisfaction and dollars that might not get recouped
So far it doesn't look like any signage on the car remains - just another clue.
If someone else hasn't noticed it appears that it was possibly a GT350 originally
Quote from: Thomas on June 20, 2019, 01:36:33 PM
Found something interesting today from the old "US-30 Dragway" archives pictures.....There are a lot of similarities.
Well look for modifications of the rear wheel well. But it appears that the car in the picture still has its rear front wheel well panels in place not built like the pictures you showed back at the start of the thread
If I'm reading the shoepolish on the windows correctly, that probably signifies an 11:30 dial-in on an automatic transmission car. More clues.
Can't quite tell in that size of a scan, but is that a person's name and "built by" on the fender next to the Crane Cams logo?
Looks like might be "Larry" something.
Quote from: Thomas on June 20, 2019, 01:36:33 PM
Found something interesting today from the old "US-30 Dragway" archives pictures.....There are a lot of similarities.
I think you found it, the weird little rear fender flares. the same blue appears on the lower rear rocker panels, same wheels front and back and an ET of 11.30 would have been a good running small block powered car. ;)
Quote from: Side-Oilers on June 20, 2019, 01:42:15 PM
If I'm reading the shoepolish on the windows correctly, that probably signifies an 11:30 dial-in on an automatic transmission car. More clues.
The letters are RT which we used to add when we wanted a reaction time on our time slips. The picture does appear to have a ton of similarities but is an earlier version as that picture still has A arm front suspension . That particular "spindle mount" American wheel came out in '69 so that means the pic is after that. It does not have the headers in the set of current pictures Thomas provided. 11.30 would have been very hard to do "at that time" with a small block , especially with the heavier weight vehicle. Nitrous wasn't adapted back then either. I believe it was big block powered at that time , but I can't tell from the photos. It does have a deep oil pan. My 52 year racing career began in '67 , and I still do. Some call me an expert , but I'm just old.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on June 20, 2019, 06:25:15 PM
The letters are RT which we used to add when we wanted a reaction time on our time slips. ................
Know the answer would differ based on equipment and region of the country though Calif typically would be on the leading edge of the tech curve.
Randy when would have reaction times first been available and likely applied to cars? Don't recall them from back in the day.
Trying to make out the name on the rear flank... Possibly the Alka hauler, if so might begin there. ;)
Quote from: gt350hr on June 20, 2019, 06:25:15 PM
Quote from: Side-Oilers on June 20, 2019, 01:42:15 PM
If I'm reading the shoepolish on the windows correctly, that probably signifies an 11:30 dial-in on an automatic transmission car. More clues.
The letters are RT which we used to add when we wanted a reaction time on our time slips. The picture does appear to have a ton of similarities but is an earlier version as that picture still has A arm front suspension . That particular "spindle mount" American wheel came out in '69 so that means the pic is after that. It does not have the headers in the set of current pictures Thomas provided. 11.30 would have been very hard to do "at that time" with a small block , especially with the heavier weight vehicle. Nitrous wasn't adapted back then either. I believe it was big block powered at that time , but I can't tell from the photos. It does have a deep oil pan. My 52 year racing career began in '67 , and I still do. Some call me an expert , but I'm just old.
Randy
Unfortunately its not the same car. The car in the picture pulling the front up is a 1968 and it had a 427 Cammer in it. I was able to verify with the old owner. (his name is on the side of the car).
He did however turn me on to the company that made the fiberglass tilt front ends. (Fiberglass ltd in the ILL area).
Although long out of business, I have a lead on a friend of the family who says that he can help.
I ran at US 30 in Gary,Indiana from '60's until it closed 1985. I really do not recall that particular car,but the "RT" designation was used for the "dial-in" class called "Run Tuff",later called "RTE" for Run Tuff Eliminator. 12.50 or faster e.t. Required. They also had the ET brackets that were designated "ET" and number for brackets 5-10. Try searching some old sponsors like White's Pit Stop (my sponsor) or King Speed shop,or Van Senus. Many old pictures are starting to show up on the web....
Quote from: Dizzy on June 21, 2019, 08:00:42 AM
I ran at US 30 in Gary,Indiana from '60's until it closed 1985. I really do not recall that particular car,but the "RT" designation was used for the "dial-in" class called "Run Tuff",later called "RTE" for Run Tuff Eliminator. 12.50 or faster e.t. Required. They also had the ET brackets that were designated "ET" and number for brackets 5-10. Try searching some old sponsors like White's Pit Stop (my sponsor) or King Speed shop,or Van Senus. Many old pictures are starting to show up on the web....
I'll see what I can find. Thank you for the information!
Quote from: Dizzy on June 21, 2019, 08:00:42 AM
I ran at US 30 in Gary,Indiana from '60's until it closed 1985. I really do not recall that particular car,but the "RT" designation was used for the "dial-in" class called "Run Tuff",later called "RTE" for Run Tuff Eliminator. 12.50 or faster e.t. Required. They also had the ET brackets that were designated "ET" and number for brackets 5-10. Try searching some old sponsors like White's Pit Stop (my sponsor) or King Speed shop,or Van Senus. Many old pictures are starting to show up on the web....
You are correct . After I posted , I was talking to a customer that used to work at Van Senus and he told me about the Run Tuff class designation. Thanks for the input. Out here in Ca we used to add RT for reaction time or NT for no time announced or on the scoreboard In answer to Jeff's question, it was around '68 when we started getting reaction times at OCIR . I still have time slips from back then. Man was I "late" back then.
Randy
You sir are correct about it being a 68 not a 67 which was my first reaction when I saw the pic...
Both Dizzy and gt350hr are correct. "RT" was the designation for Run Tuff cars - the fastest offset starting class. And yes, there is an annual US 30 reunion were former racers, cars and memorabilia show up. Although I was a class winner a couple of times, I have never shown up at a reunion. Gee, the 2 ft tall trophy and/or the $15.00 winnings were so-o-o-o good!
The Whites Pit Stop ,US 30 reunion is great. This year it is held at US 41 dragstrip July 5-7,2019. Lots of old iron and old racers. Go ahead,Google it.....US 41 Morocco ,Indiana. Great place with that down home feeling.
Awesome thread. Enjoying every post
Agree; Thomas, I hope you are enjoying your quest as much as those of us following along! Hats off to those who have the knowledge to help.
It gives some of us "old" racers a chance to visit our glorious past. Things like top fuel racer Shawn Langdon ( now 37) "before" he was a "baby bump" and his mom was driving my 7 second front engine dragster! Now he's a former champion. Man I am old.
The harsh reality is the old greats are all disappearing... Bob Glidden, Grumpy Jenkins, Lee Shepard, Tom the mongoose, the list is long..... 50 years gone by is a long time. God Speed to all of the greats that dedicated their lives to making fast cars, and those of us that liked to emulate their activities. ;D
this is a great thread, we used to Run Modified Eliminator in D/MP with a 68 notch back with a 302 and later on a B/Gas 65 Fastback with flip front end and an injected 427 SOHC, best times with the 3200+ lbs car was low 10's at 135-36 MPH, best times with the D/MP were 11:20's .
Lots of breakage and lots of fun, we could afford to waste the money we spent for a cheap trophy and maybe $10 for a class win and maybe $75-$100 for a modified win. Tracking down sponsors money ( Crane Cams, Kendall Oil, STP, Hooker Headers, etc. was much more difficult. ) Love the tracking down the story on this car, would love to see it fixed as "in the day" and make a short run or two
Agreed on loving to see this car back at/on the track as it was back in the day.
Quote from: Side-Oilers on June 21, 2019, 08:25:19 PM
Agreed on loving to see this car back at/on the track as it was back in the day.
. Hardest part will be figuring what it was like"back in the day"(and selecting"which day")IMHO
True. I guess I'd choose the "day" that I like the best and do it that way.
Quote from: Side-Oilers on June 22, 2019, 02:17:03 PM
True. I guess I'd choose the "day" that I like the best and do it that way.
+1
Quote from: 427heaven on June 21, 2019, 06:26:55 PM
The harsh reality is the old greats are all disappearing... Bob Glidden, Grumpy Jenkins, Lee Shepard, Tom the mongoose, the list is long..... 50 years gone by is a long time. God Speed to all of the greats that dedicated their lives to making fast cars, and those of us that liked to emulate their activities. ;D
Lost my neighbor a SoCal icon a couple months ago. https://www.dragracingonline.com/archive/columns/baker/xiv_10-1.html At least his son is keeping their current Camaro and the COPO one Chevy gave his dad & partner in 69. Only one old drag racer left in the area now. A couple years ago Don Blair (Blair's Speed Shop) passed and after selling off some cars and a few good parts the rest of the stuff went in the trash.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 22, 2019, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: 427heaven on June 21, 2019, 06:26:55 PM
The harsh reality is the old greats are all disappearing... Bob Glidden, Grumpy Jenkins, Lee Shepard, Tom the mongoose, the list is long..... 50 years gone by is a long time. God Speed to all of the greats that dedicated their lives to making fast cars, and those of us that liked to emulate their activities. ;D
Lost my neighbor a SoCal icon a couple months ago. https://www.dragracingonline.com/archive/columns/baker/xiv_10-1.html At least his son is keeping their current Camaro and the COPO one Chevy gave his dad & partner in 69. Only one old drag racer left in the area now. A couple years ago Don Blair (Blair's Speed Shop) passed and after selling off some cars and a few good parts the rest of the stuff went in the trash.
. But Blair's is still open right?Do you know who runs it now?
I drive by there all the time but haven't been inside in years...
Quote from: 557 on June 22, 2019, 05:02:47 PM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 22, 2019, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: 427heaven on June 21, 2019, 06:26:55 PM
The harsh reality is the old greats are all disappearing... Bob Glidden, Grumpy Jenkins, Lee Shepard, Tom the mongoose, the list is long..... 50 years gone by is a long time. God Speed to all of the greats that dedicated their lives to making fast cars, and those of us that liked to emulate their activities. ;D
Lost my neighbor a SoCal icon a couple months ago. https://www.dragracingonline.com/archive/columns/baker/xiv_10-1.html At least his son is keeping their current Camaro and the COPO one Chevy gave his dad & partner in 69. Only one old drag racer left in the area now. A couple years ago Don Blair (Blair's Speed Shop) passed and after selling off some cars and a few good parts the rest of the stuff went in the trash.
. But Blair's is still open right?Do you know who runs it now?
I drive by there all the time but haven't been inside in years...
Don sold it many years ago. The guy was to make payments. He sold off the inventory and bankrupted the place. Somebody else bought it and carried on but Don was out his money. He opened another shop on Arrow in Covina and ran it for a few years until health problems caught up with him. He was kind of a soft touch and was always giving parts on credit and holding peoples cars (but not the titles) for larger loans. Lots of times he got stung. I always made it a point to go with the guy up the street to grab his trailer he had stored at Blair's house just for the extra hour it took listening to the stories from the 50s to 70s.
Quote from: 557 on June 19, 2019, 05:03:17 PM
Another problem is that front clip may very well still be out there somewhere attached to another mustang...This is definitely one situation where "doubling your pleasure" is a very ,very bad idea...food for thought....
Legit concern but not likely.
Interesting thread. Nice to see so many people who can help chiming in with info.
Thomas, do you have a front 3/4 view photo of the car with the hood closed so we can take it all in with the stance.
I'm also curious if their are any cut lines for the hood/fender or nose piece. (I know you said it was one single piece)
Quote from: Richstang on June 23, 2019, 10:21:55 AM
Interesting thread. Nice to see so many people who can help chiming in with info.
Thomas, do you have a front 3/4 view photo of the car with the hood closed so we can take it all in with the stance.
I'm also curious if their are any cut lines for the hood/fender or nose piece. (I know you said it was one single piece)
Here are a couple that I have of the front area. There are indeed very nice cut lines/body lines between all of the panels to provide the original panel look. For such an old process, they did a fabulous job reproducing the size/shape of the ford panels.
Update:
I WAS able to locate a VIN on the transmission. While it was in fact a 1967 Shelby GT350 transmission, unfortunately it wasn't from this car....Bummer. This particular car is an early build from all indicators, but the transmission is from a much later build date and from a different color car....
Due to the strict guidelines of the Shelby registry, I was not given any information as to which car or what color it was (The car that the transmission is from). While it would be great to know this information, I completely respect the process they follow in the registry and know that the right people have the records on file should the trans ever need to be reunited with its original chassis.
Thomas,
You did locate a piece of the puzzle.
Did the number off the trans ID it as a 289 or 428 trans ?
Quote from: Harris Speedster on June 24, 2019, 08:11:56 AM
Thomas,
You did locate a piece of the puzzle.
Did the number off the trans ID it as a 289 or 428 trans ?
It is a 289 GT350 trans, so the car must have run a small block when raced. Its very obvious that this trans has been in this car for many, many years.
Quote from: Thomas on June 24, 2019, 07:29:22 AM
Quote from: Richstang on June 23, 2019, 10:21:55 AM
Interesting thread. Nice to see so many people who can help chiming in with info.
Thomas, do you have a front 3/4 view photo of the car with the hood closed so we can take it all in with the stance.
I'm also curious if their are any cut lines for the hood/fender or nose piece. (I know you said it was one single piece)
Here are a couple that I have of the front area. There are indeed very nice cut lines/body lines between all of the panels to provide the original panel look. For such an old process, they did a fabulous job reproducing the size/shape of the ford panels.
Update:
I WAS able to locate a VIN on the transmission. While it was in fact a 1967 Shelby GT350 transmission, unfortunately it wasn't from this car....Bummer. This particular car is an early build from all indicators, but the transmission is from a much later build date and from a different color car....
Due to the strict guidelines of the Shelby registry, I was not given any information as to which car or what color it was (The car that the transmission is from). While it would be great to know this information, I completely respect the process they follow in the registry and know that the right people have the records on file should the trans ever need to be reunited with its original chassis.
I don't know if you are open to this, but if you were willing to sell the transmission to the owner of the car for which it belongs...you'd probably have a life-long friend! I know that Dave Mathews could get in touch with the other car's owner (confidentially) and share the info, again, if you're open. No worries either way! :)
Well good to know the transmission had numbers on it (it was a slim chance) but not for that car. Maybe if you look at Eng. Block on passenger side above oil pan there could be numbers stamped in there as well Just a LONG shot
Jess
Quote from: Shelby_r_b on June 24, 2019, 10:00:48 AM
Quote from: Thomas on June 24, 2019, 07:29:22 AM
Quote from: Richstang on June 23, 2019, 10:21:55 AM
Interesting thread. Nice to see so many people who can help chiming in with info.
Thomas, do you have a front 3/4 view photo of the car with the hood closed so we can take it all in with the stance.
I'm also curious if their are any cut lines for the hood/fender or nose piece. (I know you said it was one single piece)
Here are a couple that I have of the front area. There are indeed very nice cut lines/body lines between all of the panels to provide the original panel look. For such an old process, they did a fabulous job reproducing the size/shape of the ford panels.
Update:
I WAS able to locate a VIN on the transmission. While it was in fact a 1967 Shelby GT350 transmission, unfortunately it wasn't from this car....Bummer. This particular car is an early build from all indicators, but the transmission is from a much later build date and from a different color car....
Due to the strict guidelines of the Shelby registry, I was not given any information as to which car or what color it was (The car that the transmission is from). While it would be great to know this information, I completely respect the process they follow in the registry and know that the right people have the records on file should the trans ever need to be reunited with its original chassis.
I don't know if you are open to this, but if you were willing to sell the transmission to the owner of the car for which it belongs...you'd probably have a life-long friend! I know that Dave Mathews could get in touch with the other car's owner (confidentially) and share the info, again, if you're open. No worries either way! :)
. Providing the car still exists.Unless the owner converted to an auto. the tranny likely came out of a wreck...
Quote from: JessC on June 24, 2019, 10:32:57 AM
Well good to know the transmission had numbers on it (it was a slim chance) but not for that car. Maybe if you look at Eng. Block on passenger side above oil pan there could be numbers stamped in there as well Just a LONG shot
Jess
The original engine is long gone.
The discovery of the transmission origin might explain the radiator.
I had previously forgot to mention that the Shelby roll bar is still in the car too. There are four bolted attachment points and two welded points at the bottom floorboard. The square retractor mounts are located on the top upper bar.
There are also two round backwards facing short stubs near the lower portion of the roll bar that point towards the rear inner fender.
Is the fiberglass material on the nose really, really thin? I'd like to see the underside to see what kind of structural reinforcing was done.
I have a full fiberglass nose on my 65 race car and the logistics of "just popping the hood" to do a quick check had me punting on that. I just cut out the hood section and ran a fiberglass hood with dzus fasteners on the rest of the front body section.
Quote from: Bossbill on June 24, 2019, 02:11:06 PM
Is the fiberglass material on the nose really, really thin? I'd like to see the underside to see what kind of structural reinforcing was done.
I have a full fiberglass nose on my 65 race car and the logistics of "just popping the hood" to do a quick check had me punting on that. I just cut out the hood section and ran a fiberglass hood with dzus fasteners on the rest of the front body section.
Bossbill,
The fiberglass on the front clip is actually very thick and solid. The next time that I get a chance, I'll take more pictures of the inner structure. If I remember correctly, it was reinforced with small metal bars which were layered into the fiberglass cloth. Its very strong.
I was lucky enough to locate a matching pair of rear Magnesium rims to match the fronts. They were in rough shape but since they are getting so hard to find I bought them with the hopes of restoring them. After a trip to the soda blaster they cleaned up fairly decent, but the dark weathered surface was now gone. The wheels looked like a chalky silver aluminum. I did some research and found a process to artificially age the surface making the rims look aged. I loved how the soda blasting left the original patina (small scratches and rubs), but cleaned off all of the nasty paint and oxidation.
As you can see, they look great. I cannot wait to get them on the car. (even if it is only a roller).
Well it looks like you have CHOSEN your time frame to restore your car to, mid to late 60s great choice. It all begins with the wheels... :)
Quote from: 427heaven on June 28, 2019, 09:13:27 AM
Well it looks like you have CHOSEN your time frame to restore your car to, mid to late 60s great choice. It all begins with the wheels... :)
Yes sir, you are correct. Basically due to the lack of ANY history on this car, along with the missing VIN or Shelby ID, I'm put into a position where my best option (besides selling it in its current state) is to restore the car to an "As raced" condition. I have so many of the correct original period race components and have made every attempt to acquire period correct replacement Shelby parts for the build. (OEM steel frame trunk lid, lights, OEM air scoops, clips, hoses, and many other things)
I have a few ideas of how the project will move forward and I'll start another thread on the build if the group has any interest on following the progress.
I'm sure this isn't the first Shelby to have been devalued beyond the point of restoration or identification, it's just sad to see. I'll always keep the faith that someone, somewhere will recognize this car and set the record straight and I truly appreciate all of the assistance and wisdom shared by this group. You're all a really great bunch of guys!
I for one would follow with interest
Can you run a Marti report on the trans VIN to find out details?
Worth 20 bucks or so
Of course it may be a partial VIN
Quote from: pmustang on June 28, 2019, 10:52:40 AM
I for one would follow with interest
Can you run a Marti report on the trans VIN to find out details?
Worth 20 bucks or so
Of course it may be a partial VIN
Not available to me.
To obtain the Marti report, a requestor is required to have the VIN as well as the Shelby tag number from the car.
I would love to have the info, but I completely understand the policy given the situations of people "fishing" for information on these unique cars. I think its a really great thing honestly.
U.R. Right.Marti and D. Matthews(for that matter)operate the way they do for very good reason.Confirm or deny,not provide.Keeps the breed strong.Otherwise If you only had one of the vins (for 65-67)you could.....instashelby... ::)
Thomas,
I applaud the research work you are doing.
But, please be careful in buying parts that you can not verify or document original to the car when raced.
Weigh on the side of caution my friend.
Jeff brought up the trans and radiator for ID purposes.
That is another avenue, scour the SAAC world registry.
See what cars were white, and un accounted for.
To further that, pull date codes off the panels on your race car, that will even further whittle down
white Shelby's built prior to those codes on your car.
One thing leads to the next, just like learning the trans was out of a 350, Yes ?
Keep up the work.
A picture may turn up one day, and if so, you do not want it too bite you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Respectfully submitted,
John
Member of the Society or Automotive Historians
QuoteThat is another avenue, scour the SAAC world registry.
See what cars were white, and un accounted for.
I respectfully disagree with that strategy. Just because a car is not listed does not make it a possibility. Many cars are not listed. Cars listed could be unreported rebodies.
Saying the car is a GT350 based on only the transmission is also not reliable.
The information presented in this thread will not identify this car if it was a Shelby.
I do agree with that.
It will never be recognized as a true original Shelby, can't, numbers are gone.
But;
As you brought out, re-bodies may exist, good to know.
As you said, un reported rebodies>>
Trans back to original owner via Dave, may show just that.
Maybe part of the deal is that the owner of that car, even if it does not exist anymore, would be requested to
fill in any blanks and past owners if a deal is made>> again, via Dave.
May also let Thomas, as well as the Club Records know what really happened.
may give him a picture and or the original owner that crashed it, OR did whatever to loose the front clip.
A white 67 350 will not be plentiful, one built with early date codes, may just fill in a blank in the registry.
Many possibilities Pete.
Just typical research that's sometimes reveals surprises>> some good for all involved may be gained.
Respectfully submitted,
John
Quote from: Coralsnake on June 28, 2019, 12:55:08 PM
QuoteThat is another avenue, scour the SAAC world registry.
See what cars were white, and un accounted for.
I respectfully disagree with that strategy. Just because a car is not listed does make it a possibility. Many cars are not listed. Cars listed could be unreported rebodies.
Saying the car is a GT350 based on only the transmission is also not reliable.
The information presented in this thread will not identify this car if it was a Shelby.
There were approximately 526 white '67's Shelby built, of those 178 were GT350. That's too many too sort though for guessing.
What are the majority of the permanent parts (not removable with bolts) date codes on the car indicating, for the build date (month / day)?
Assuming it was built in San Jose.
Quote from: Richstang on June 28, 2019, 01:25:59 PM
There were approximately 526 white '67's Shelby built, of those 178 were GT350. That's too many too sort though for guessing.
What are the majority of the permanent parts (not removable with bolts) date codes on the car indicating, for the build date (month / day)?
Assuming it was built in San Jose.
The rear tail panel : C7ZB
2 23 D3
Rear speaker tray: O ZB 63 O
2 13 2
I haven't had time to record the other numbers yet, but they are there. Will most likely check again this weekend. If anyone has suggestions on where to locate panel numbers please chime in.
Refresh my memory, why do you believe its was a GT350 ? Im not well versed on the 1967s
Thomas, sorry, i recently removed a T10 from a normal 65 GT fastback and it had a full VIN staking on it, I assumed the same for your trans
Quote from: Thomas on June 28, 2019, 01:34:01 PM
Rear speaker tray: O ZB 63 O
2 13 2
Naming the panel that your looking at and documenting is often an issue when collecting date codes. I have no idea of what you would call a rear speaker tray on a 67 fastback. Just one of the challenges of process
Quote from: Thomas on June 28, 2019, 01:34:01 PMI haven't had time to record the other numbers yet, but they are there. Will most likely check again this weekend. If anyone has suggestions on where to locate panel numbers please chime in.
There are hundreds - just about every sheet metal panel will have a date - some of the unboltable items with have more than one since they are made up of multiple panels in a sub assembly. Fenders and doors are a good example. Where the date, from what side and other details all also play into the details
Quote from: pmustang on June 28, 2019, 03:01:26 PM
Thomas, sorry, i recently removed a T10 from a normal 65 GT fastback and it had a full VIN staking on it, I assumed the same for your trans
I've never seen a Mustang T10 with a vin stamp. I do have a K code '65 Fairlane that has the vin stamped on the bottom of the tailhousing.
Randy
Hello Randy
This one had the whole VIN. Who stamped it I cant say
65 GT fastback, PIO on data tag and all the other details that say GT FWIW
Quote from: gt350hr on July 01, 2019, 11:19:36 AM
Quote from: pmustang on June 28, 2019, 03:01:26 PM
Thomas, sorry, i recently removed a T10 from a normal 65 GT fastback and it had a full VIN staking on it, I assumed the same for your trans
I've never seen a Mustang T10 with a vin stamp. I do have a K code '65 Fairlane that has the vin stamped on the bottom of the tailhousing.
Randy
Wow a 65 Fairlane with a K code, now that something you don't see everyday Maybe you can use it as a tow car for you Shelby at the drag races, now that would be cool
The car was wrecked almost 50 years ago. So badly that it broke an ear on the main case. It is odd in the fact that "most" of the Fairlanes were toploaders in '65. Steve , no tow cars in my category :( Great idea though!
Randy
Just saying: The car has factory looking rear brake air ducting. So, that eleminates at least the last one third of the production, if not roughly white cars built after the brake ducting was eliminated. Wasn't that about car 14??
How about...if they are still there.... the yellow wax written numbers on the cowl?
Or someone added the ducting....no answer on the GT350 claim ?
The radiator is from either a 289 Mustang with extra cooling or a GT350 with extra cooling as it's a C7ZE with a T2 tag. Same one as in my car.
Only SJ cars got the W MO radiators with that tag. It also has the marking of a W MO and a date stamp on the passenger side of the top tank.
Need a pic of stamp to narrow down a possible date for the car.
That's two parts from a GT350 -- possibly. It's odd the radiator still exists.
on edit -- add some rad details.
Quote from: Bossbill on July 01, 2019, 08:39:19 PM
The radiator is from either a 289 Mustang with extra cooling or a GT350 with extra cooling as it's a C7ZE with a T2 tag. Same one as in my car.
Only SJ cars got the W MO radiators with that tag. It also has the marking of a W MO and a date stamp on the passenger side of the top tank.
Need a pic of stamp to narrow down a possible date for the car.
That's two parts from a GT350 -- possibly. It's odd the radiator still exists.
on edit -- add some rad details.
Thank you for the information and also to everyone on the site for the positive posts and messages. It really helps to keep me pushing forward with the car. I'm going to try and pull the 1/4 panel interior sections to see what's hiding in there too. Since they would of had to be removed to install the roll bar, maybe there is a hidden clue.
I will take detailed pics of the Radiator this evening. I will also look for any markings or marks under the dash cowl since there is still a decent amount of the original factory metal under the dash pad.
Just like the transmission, I would not take the radiator ( bolt on part) as evidence. Im not trying to be a buzz kill, just a realist.
The roll bar might be a better clue
Quote from: J_Speegle on June 28, 2019, 09:50:56 PM
Quote from: Thomas on June 28, 2019, 01:34:01 PM
Rear speaker tray: O ZB 63 O
2 13 2
Naming the panel that your looking at and documenting is often an issue when collecting date codes. I have no idea of what you would call a rear speaker tray on a 67 fastback. Just one of the challenges of process
The panel that I mistakenly referred to as the rear speaker tray is actually the panel which is up inside of the trunk, between the rear glass and the trunk lid. In most older cars its referred to as a speaker tray, just not on this fastback style. Its not easy to access unless you're a very small person. Using a mirror was the easiest method. I'd be interested in seeing what some of the other cars have stamped in the same location.
The panel has several holes stamped in it. In the center of this panel, there are a series of large numbers stamped into it. Mine started with a large circle then Z B 6 3, than an additional large circle. These numbers run sideways on the panel. (front of car to back as an reference). There is a second set of numbers just below it showing 2 13 2.
Quote from: Coralsnake on July 02, 2019, 08:56:20 AM
Just like the transmission, I would not take the radiator ( bolt on part) as evidence. Im not trying to be a buzz kill, just a realist.
The roll bar might be a better clue
I have a couple pics of the roll bar but they are not very good. I will post what I have ASAP. I will take better more detailed pics of it this evening.
Any label on the seatbelt?
Quote from: 557 on July 02, 2019, 09:36:58 AM
Any label on the seatbelt?
Only the outer belts are present. The inner belts (end with the push button) are removed from the mounting points. I will take a look to see if there are any tags or marks on the remaining belts.
Thomas,
How does it feel to be an apprentice archivist ?
Smile !!
Creeping closer to an end that may never end ?
Does it have any of the under dash wiring left?
Does it have the leaf spring bumpers underneath?
What was the remark you made about a cowl mark ? white or yellow in color ?
John
Quote from: Coralsnake on July 02, 2019, 08:56:20 AM
Just like the transmission, I would not take the radiator ( bolt on part) as evidence. Im not trying to be a buzz kill, just a realist.
The roll bar might be a better clue
Yes, the radiator is just a bolt on part.
But, it's the culmination of all the clues that's important.
Evidently this radiator was used in the Feb-May time frame and this jives with the sheet metal date.
Because it is bolt on, the evidence 'weight' is not nearly as good as a welded on part. But it could be a clue if all the evidence points that way.
Boy, I've been watching too many cop procedurals ...
From February until the end of May there were 125 white GT350's built at San Jose.
Quote from: Richstang on July 02, 2019, 11:56:49 AM
From February until the end of May there were 125 white GT350's built at San Jose.
Question; How long after body panels were stamped did they end up at the assembly plants for the builds?
What I'm getting at here is that if the oldest date I can find so far is 2/26 (Rear tail panel), when would this car have been assembled? shipped? Is there anyone else who has a SJ March build / assembly date who has knowledge of their panel stamping dates?
It might help to narrow down a Ford plant assembly date if there are other people with similar date codes...?
Quote from: Thomas on July 02, 2019, 12:13:18 PM
Quote from: Richstang on July 02, 2019, 11:56:49 AM
From February until the end of May there were 125 white GT350's built at San Jose.
Question; How long after body panels were stamped did they end up at the assembly plants for the builds?
What I'm getting at here is that if the oldest date I can find so far is 2/26 (Rear tail panel), when would this car have been assembled? shipped? Is there anyone else who has a SJ March build / assembly date who has knowledge of their panel stamping dates?
It might help to narrow down a Ford plant assembly date if there are other people with similar date codes...?
If it was based on a GT350, with the 2/26 panel date (noted as the latest date stamped code on a permanent panel found so far)...
That eliminates all the White GT350s built in February at SJ (the last GT350 white GT350 was built on 2/16.
White GT350 Production starts up again on 3/15.
From mid March to the end of May there were 116 white GT350s built.
Did you ever find out what state the original owner lived in? That would significantly cut down possibilities.
Are we ruling out the back half of a GT500?
I came across a different posting regarding the rear tie-down brackets and thought that I would add a couple pictures of the ones that are on this car. Not sure that it will help in any way, but since I had the pics I thought I would add them to the discussion. I also added another Radiator pic.
Quote from: Richstang on July 02, 2019, 01:13:43 PM
Quote from: Thomas on July 02, 2019, 12:13:18 PM
Quote from: Richstang on July 02, 2019, 11:56:49 AM
From February until the end of May there were 125 white GT350's built at San Jose.
Question; How long after body panels were stamped did they end up at the assembly plants for the builds?
What I'm getting at here is that if the oldest date I can find so far is 2/26 (Rear tail panel), when would this car have been assembled? shipped? Is there anyone else who has a SJ March build / assembly date who has knowledge of their panel stamping dates?
It might help to narrow down a Ford plant assembly date if there are other people with similar date codes...?
If it was based on a GT350, with the 2/26 panel date (noted as the latest date stamped code on a permanent panel found so far)...
That eliminates all the White GT350s built in February at SJ (the last GT350 white GT350 was built on 2/16.
White GT350 Production starts up again on 3/15.
From mid March to the end of May there were 116 white GT350s built.
Did you ever find out what state the original owner lived in? That would significantly cut down possibilities.
The only info that I have at the moment is that the car was found in Chicago. There is zero history on this car prior to me purchasing it. My best guess would be that the car was converted / modified around the 69'/70' timeframe, but knowing its origination point seems like an impossible task at this point. I see what you're saying though, if I were to search for any white, March & May build cars sold new in the Illinois area it could add some data, only speculative of course.
Thank you for the suggestion.
Gauranteed: IF this car was owned by some high-zoot restorer, Concours afficianado, auction owner, pal of somebody important then for sure it would be blessed/ordained as a Shelby.
Quote from: Thomas on July 02, 2019, 12:13:18 PM
Quote from: Richstang on July 02, 2019, 11:56:49 AM
From February until the end of May there were 125 white GT350's built at San Jose.
Question; How long after body panels were stamped did they end up at the assembly plants for the builds?
What I'm getting at here is that if the oldest date I can find so far is 2/26 (Rear tail panel), when would this car have been assembled? shipped? Is there anyone else who has a SJ March build / assembly date who has knowledge of their panel stamping dates?
It might help to narrow down a Ford plant assembly date if there are other people with similar date codes...?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thomas,
You need to buy a used registry from someone herein SAAC.
You have detective work to do, that will be time consuming.
Maybe somebody here will break it down for you, but it might be wise to buy a used one,
It contains so much info you need.
Richstang just jumped in , narrowed to 116 white cars, 116 4 speed cars Rich ?
Bossbill on the radiator, and mention again of the 4 speed numbers.
I and others will help, but you need to get an old registry.
See what cars in the Feb - April build times are blank, show re-body, wrecked repaired by clip or whatever.
Your new found names you gather out of the Registry, will need googling, web search and calls too.
Respectfully submitted,
John
Keep going Thomas,
Quote from: Harris Speedster on July 02, 2019, 05:45:58 PM
Quote from: Thomas on July 02, 2019, 12:13:18 PM
Quote from: Richstang on July 02, 2019, 11:56:49 AM
From February until the end of May there were 125 white GT350's built at San Jose.
Question; How long after body panels were stamped did they end up at the assembly plants for the builds?
What I'm getting at here is that if the oldest date I can find so far is 2/26 (Rear tail panel), when would this car have been assembled? shipped? Is there anyone else who has a SJ March build / assembly date who has knowledge of their panel stamping dates?
It might help to narrow down a Ford plant assembly date if there are other people with similar date codes...?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thomas,
You need to buy a used registry from someone herein SAAC.
You have detective work to do, that will be time consuming.
Maybe somebody here will break it down for you, but it might be wise to buy a used one,
It contains so much info you need.
Richstang just jumped in , narrowed to 116 white cars, 116 4 speed cars Rich ?
Bossbill on the radiator, and mention again of the 4 speed numbers.
I and others will help, but you need to get an old registry.
See what cars in the Feb - April build times are blank, show re-body, wrecked repaired by clip or whatever.
Your new found names you gather out of the Registry, will need googling, web search and calls too.
Respectfully submitted,
John
Keep going Thomas,
I didn't limit the 116 white GT350s built from March - May to just as 4-speeds, they are all the cars.
Let me go back and omit the A/C cars, get the total number, and then omit the automatics.
This is just a possibility of it being a GT350 with no hard evidence other than a few bolt in parts, such as the K-code radiator, correct?
Thomas -- need a pic of the embossed area on the other side of the radiator cap.
It should have a W MO stamping and a date.
Richstang,
It can never be a 67 gt350.
No numbers, Shelby or ford vins on the body.
He might get lucky and find out what happened.
The trans has numbers rich, I imagine he has given them to Dave ?
Thomas, what parts did the person you had look at it >>> identify as possibly being Shelby?
Here are the updated radiator pics.
Here are some updated paint pics after I wiped some more black paint away. Its a tough job, so much rubbing.
I was able to find some remnants of the old lower stripes wrapped inside the door jam. (The door hinges were seized so it hadn't been opened in many years).
Also, if you look closely at the roof pics, you'll see the blue roof stripe showing thru after I wiped the black away.
Question for the group; Does anyone have an idea of why the factory rear tail panel would be cut completely across the entire length of the panel? I looked closely at the panel and it appears to be cut in the same manner (common tooling cut marks) as the light holes. The metal is slightly bent inwards on the cut line. It very well may have been cut by whom ever modified the car due to the removal of the fuel tank (Relocated to the front), But with the cut lines matching almost exactly I had to ask the question.
Thomas:
1. See the attached image you posted of the radiator, what does the tag that the red arrow is pointing to say?
2. The rear tail panel being cut (hacked) out was something Shelby workers did to install the Cougar tail lights. Also the metal bracket on the drivers' side in the trunk was a Shelby part to hold the Cougar tail lights to the car, although the one on your car has had some additional cutting.
See attached of more typical.
Quote from: JD on July 02, 2019, 11:21:55 PM
Thomas:
1. See the attached image you posted of the radiator, what does the tag that the red arrow is pointing to say?
Read back a few posts. The numbers on the tab are shown in a picture.
2. The rear tail panel being cut (hacked) out was something Shelby workers did to install the Cougar tail lights. Also the metal bracket on the drivers' side in the trunk was a Shelby part to hold the Cougar tail lights to the car, although the one on your car has had some additional cutting.
I know about the Shelby folks cutting the tail light holes and I know about the light buckets. Both of mine are cut the exact same way. My question is why did they cut out the gas cap mounting area?
Quote from: Thomas on July 02, 2019, 09:55:01 PM
Question for the group; Does anyone have an idea of why the factory rear tail panel would be cut completely across the entire length of the panel? I looked closely at the panel and it appears to be cut in the same manner (common tooling cut marks) as the light holes. The metal is slightly bent inwards on the cut line. It very well may have been cut by whom ever modified the car due to the removal of the fuel tank (Relocated to the front), But with the cut lines matching almost exactly I had to ask the question.
SA would have no reason that I am aware of to cut out the tail panel metal across the gas filler neck opening. That metal which was removed held the gas filler neck and pop open gas cap in place on a regular production 67 Shelby.
To recap, the radiator is a C7ZE T2 dated 12/66. Should be an extra cooling radiator.
New info shows an original overflow hose and also looks like it came from a manual transmission car.
The coolant pump is neat.
Doesn't prove anything, just interesting.
Thomas,
I would like to ask again;
Please provide a list of the Shelby parts that your guy said looked like Shelby parts.
Quote from: Harris Speedster on July 03, 2019, 10:00:44 AM
Thomas,
I would like to ask again;
Please provide a list of the Shelby parts that your guy said looked like Shelby parts.
Have you been reading thru the entire post? If you have, everything that is listed thus far is what was found.
As far as what parts did the experts use to give me their opinion that the car was once a Shelby?
The early Rollbar, body date codes, tail light housings, rear wire harness, radiator, rear spring snubbers, functional rear brake ducting with original clamps, fittings and hose and probably a few more things that I'm missing. Along with that, the placement, methods of install, matching time correct details of each of the parts and the original patina of these parts added value to the authenticity.
I feel that the opinion of most here (including the two experts that I contacted), Is that its obvious what the car used to be, but as has been stated more times than I care to repeat, the car will never be recognized as a true Shelby without the I.D. tags or VIN.
I posted the finding of this car to share it with the one group who could truly appreciate what the car is. I'm not a builder or a flipper, I'm not dreaming of getting a fake tag or ID. I'm here to learn from the people who have the greatest knowledge on the subject at hand. The negativity and constant posts of "It's never going to be a Shelby" are noted.
Regardless, I'm thankful for everyone's continued support and help in trying to narrow down the history and origin of the car.
Im not tearing your car apart, just trying to see what others are seeing?
Body date codes are not an indication in my opinion. Surely other nonShelby cars were built with the same date stampings on body panels.
Bolt on parts like transmissions, fiberglass and radiators are not indicative of a Shelby.
I can acknowledge a few items like the vents and snubbers .... but lets evaluate this fairly.
Trying to pick a number out of the Registry is irresponsible at best. I am not directing that to the owner.
Id like to see some better roll bar pictures. From what I have seen so far, if it is a factory roll bar it has been heavily modified
It might also be helpful if you name these "experts" because I would venture to say the people reading this thread are equally or more knowledgeable
Quote from: Bossbill on July 03, 2019, 01:43:18 AM
To recap, the radiator is a C7ZE T2 dated 12/66. Should be an extra cooling radiator.
New info shows an original overflow hose and also looks like it came from a manual transmission car.
The coolant pump is neat.
Doesn't prove anything, just interesting.
FYI no doubt about it that the C7ZE -T2 radiator was only used on a manual transmission car. That is the application the tag indicates.
Quote from: Bossbill on July 03, 2019, 01:43:18 AM
To recap, the radiator is a C7ZE T2 dated 12/66. Should be an extra cooling radiator.
New info shows an original overflow hose and also looks like it came from a manual transmission car.
The coolant pump is neat.
Doesn't prove anything, just interesting.
Bossbill ,
That is a Jabsco Water Puppy pump common in marine applications ( bilge pump) '69 Trans Am cars used them as pumps for the trans and diff coolers.
Randy
BTW no one answered my question about it being a GT500. Is it because of the radiator or the 4 speed for a different car?
Are those rear shipping tie downs similar to 67 San Jose parts?
Quote from: Bob Gaines on July 03, 2019, 11:03:29 AM
Quote from: Bossbill on July 03, 2019, 01:43:18 AM
To recap, the radiator is a C7ZE T2 dated 12/66. Should be an extra cooling radiator.
New info shows an original overflow hose and also looks like it came from a manual transmission car.
The coolant pump is neat.
Doesn't prove anything, just interesting.
FYI no doubt about it that the C7ZE -T2 radiator was only used on a manual transmission car. That is the application the tag indicates.
Yeah, I should have stated that better.
The tag does indicate a manual trans (I do have a tag list), but it is soldered on and could come from anywhere. What I meant by "looks" is that the lower tank looks like it's a manual lower tank as it has no automatic cooler fittings. The picture isn't great.
Quote from: Coralsnake on July 03, 2019, 11:21:53 AM
Are those rear shipping tie downs similar to 67 San Jose parts?
Yes, some 67 SJ cars came with the round corner style. It was a mix of the two with the square corner style being in the majority. Typically later production when the the round corner style started to be mixed in from my observations.
Thomas: Look at the leaf springs. Can you read/photograph a stamping on the bottom of the short leaf? It could be a part # and date.
You can also check the center section (pumpkin) for a date code and any other numbers. Maybe it has a "SPEC" rear-end. More than likely, since it's a drag car, the rear-end was changed out at some point, but still worth checking.
Quote from: Bossbill on July 03, 2019, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on July 03, 2019, 11:03:29 AM
Quote from: Bossbill on July 03, 2019, 01:43:18 AM
To recap, the radiator is a C7ZE T2 dated 12/66. Should be an extra cooling radiator.
New info shows an original overflow hose and also looks like it came from a manual transmission car.
The coolant pump is neat.
Doesn't prove anything, just interesting.
FYI no doubt about it that the C7ZE -T2 radiator was only used on a manual transmission car. That is the application the tag indicates.
Yeah, I should have stated that better.
The tag does indicate a manual trans (I do have a tag list), but it is soldered on and could come from anywhere. What I meant by "looks" is that the lower tank looks like it's a manual lower tank as it has no automatic cooler fittings. The picture isn't great.
Bossbill;
I will try to get the car out today and take better pictures of the radiator for you. Thank you for your help thus far.
Are you able to make any distinction as to a window of when this radiator would have been assembled into the car?
Quote from: 68blk500c on July 03, 2019, 01:29:45 PM
Thomas: Look at the leaf springs. Can you read/photograph a stamping on the bottom of the short leaf? It could be a part # and date.
68BLK500C;
I will try to find any numbers on the springs and take a couple pictures tonight after work.
Quote from: George Schalk on July 03, 2019, 01:53:18 PM
You can also check the center section (pumpkin) for a date code and any other numbers. Maybe it has a "SPEC" rear-end. More than likely, since it's a drag car, the rear-end was changed out at some point, but still worth checking.
George;
Sadly, the center section was missing from the car. Would there be any numbers on the rear axle housing? Location?
Quote from: Thomas on July 10, 2019, 12:49:33 PM
Quote from: George Schalk on July 03, 2019, 01:53:18 PM
You can also check the center section (pumpkin) for a date code and any other numbers. Maybe it has a "SPEC" rear-end. More than likely, since it's a drag car, the rear-end was changed out at some point, but still worth checking.
George;
Sadly, the center section was missing from the car. Would there be any numbers on the rear axle housing? Location?
Unfortunately, there are no other numbers to locate on the axle housing. Maybe the rear brake drums are still originals, so you might check the brake drums for date codes, which are cast into the outer portion of the drum.
Are the axles 28-spline or 31-spline? The GT350 cars came with the 28 and GT500 cars came with 31. Do keep in mind, as modified as the car is, the axles could have been swapped out at any time during its race life.
Quote from: George Schalk on July 03, 2019, 01:53:18 PM
You can also check the center section (pumpkin) for a date code and any other numbers. Maybe it has a "SPEC" rear-end. More than likely, since it's a drag car, the rear-end was changed out at some point, but still worth checking.
Not sure if a GT 350 would have a SPEC...
Quote from: George Schalk on July 10, 2019, 01:28:58 PM
Quote from: Thomas on July 10, 2019, 12:49:33 PM
Quote from: George Schalk on July 03, 2019, 01:53:18 PM
You can also check the center section (pumpkin) for a date code and any other numbers. Maybe it has a "SPEC" rear-end. More than likely, since it's a drag car, the rear-end was changed out at some point, but still worth checking.
George;
I'll count the splines this evening. As for the drums and backing plates, they were removed and replaced at sometime by a set of "Hurst/Airheart disk brakes. I've never heard of them before, but they must have been decent as there are only spindles on the front axle... My theory is that this is why the rear tail panel gas filler was cut out. Probably had a parachute attached in the center area to help slow the car after the 1/4 mile. There is NO way that these early rear disk brakes would be able to stop this car at high speed on their own.
Quote from: Thomas on July 10, 2019, 01:37:21 PM
My theory is that this is why the rear tail panel gas filler was cut out. Probably had a parachute attached in the center area to help slow the car after the 1/4 mile. There is NO way that these early rear disk brakes would be able to stop this car at high speed on their own.
This example ran with just rear drum brakes for allot of runs down the quarter mile. Old school. Of course we have no idea of what the car in question was running (engine unless were accepting it was a small block) not the trap speeds but given the period likely not real fast compared to today looking at the design and layout
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-100719145648.jpeg)
Hurst / Airheart brakes were THE brakes to have back in that era Wilwood , JFZ , and Brembo were "unknown" at the time to drag racers. Check the end of the axle for a large "semi" oval shape ( 28 splines) or three round holes ( 31 splines) if you don't have that the axles are aftermarket. Since I believe this was a gas class car it could have run from 115-125 mph and should have stopped with rear brakes only , I did it many times myself. Low gears help to slow the car as well , especially a 5 series gear like i run in my '66. I don't even touch the brakes on a 122 mph pass to make the first turn off at Sears Point. Plus you can always downshift.
50+ years of continuous drag racing means you know a thing or two because you've seen and done a thing or two.
Randy
Randy, no doubt that you and Jeff are correct about what the car needed to stop, but we have all seen plenty of cars that people just kept adding stuff to so that it looked the part. In the late '70s, we had a guy in town with a chute on the back of his Camaro street car, and I can assure you that it had no need for one. It sure did intimidate people though...
Morning everyone.
I have lots of part number pictures and updates to post but cannot post them due to the uploading issue on the forum. I will post them ASAP when the problem is resolved.
However, I'll list the numbers that I found for now.
Drivers rear spring: C7ZA
5_ _ 6AM
040EC7
Pass rear spring: C7ZA
_ _ _ _AM
04_ _ _ _
Rear axle had an Oval flange center: 28-spline
Driver door upper hinge: 32123LH
SPO or SPC
Pass door upper hinge: 32122RH
SPC
8
Passenger door striker: 1-67
Thomas :
Has the steering box been changed?
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on July 11, 2019, 10:08:38 AM
Thomas :
Has the steering box been changed?
Yes. It has a Chevy Corvair steering box. I'm assuming that its what the drag racers used when they converted to the straight front axle.
Quote from: Thomas on July 10, 2019, 12:46:33 PM
Bossbill;
I will try to get the car out today and take better pictures of the radiator for you. Thank you for your help thus far.
Are you able to make any distinction as to a window of when this radiator would have been assembled into the car?
See pic for where to take the pic.
Have you looked at the date codes on the side door window glass?
Seems to me that with whats known at this time, April car?
Quote from: Bossbill on July 11, 2019, 07:37:11 PM
Quote from: Thomas on July 10, 2019, 12:46:33 PM
Bossbill;
I will try to get the car out today and take better pictures of the radiator for you. Thank you for your help thus far.
Are you able to make any distinction as to a window of when this radiator would have been assembled into the car?
See pic for where to take the pic.
Here are the Radiator pics from yesterday.
Quote from: Harris Speedster on July 11, 2019, 08:40:52 PM
Have you looked at the date codes on the side door window glass?
Seems to me that with whats known at this time, April car?
I wish that I could. The car has all lexan windows. As far as the build date, I'm building a chart to track stamping date codes for the car. My hope is that somehow I'll be able to figure out what the timeframe is from the part manufacturing process date to vehicle assembly date. This would give me another possible window to investigate. Might be able to align it to a certain DSO group, then break it down by color etc...
As a few of the members have recommended, I'm following every bread crumb that I can.
here are the rear leaf spring pics.
Those are AM marked competition suspension springs which are consistent with earlier production 67 Shelby's .
Here is the axle, the door hinges and the door catch.
This is a better orientation on the Radiator pic .
I have another question for the group. I believe that the lower rear lower valance looks to have been replaced due to the Phillips screws that are used to fasten it onto the car. The strange thing is that its welded in the corners and it has the same paint and patina as the rest of the car? Anyone have any info on if these were modified or replaced for some reason at the assembly plant? I've attached a couple of pics to show what I'm referring too.
I've also made further progress on getting some more of the black paint off. Unfortunately the blue stripes seem to wipe off fairly easily. They are there, but when I rub the black off, the blue comes off with it.
Thomas , 28 spline axles are what you have and ( for me) broke the driver's side when the et's dropped into the 11 second range. many racers "back then" did what they could with what they had ( me included) . I switched to 31 spline axles almost 40 years ago .
Randy
Stripes were originally vinyl not painted
Quote from: Coralsnake on July 12, 2019, 05:12:40 PM
Stripes were originally vinyl not painted
The remnants of the side stripes that are left in the door jam are vinyl. The stripes on the roof are rear panel below the back window are painted blue.
If you refer back a few pages ( page 10) I added a picture of the vinyl stripes in the door jam.
Quote from: Thomas on July 11, 2019, 09:46:45 PM
Here are the Radiator pics from yesterday.
A (Western Modine) W MO 12 66 radiator. Along with the tag (extra cooling, small block, stick) and other attributes it would correct for a SJ built car. Only SJ appears to have used this radiator.
IF this came from the original car it would be a January/early February car, at minimum. This appears to jive with your other parts. Your door striker is of this date range too and would appear indicate a January minimum car.
edit=However, based on your sheet metal find of 2/13 you are now into late Feb/earlyMarch.
I believe the Julian date on your springs translates to 09 Feb 1967.
Ron
Awesome thread. Old race cars are amazing. Dont let some of these guys bring down your research - some clearly aren't even reading all the posts before they reply. Having peeled back layers of paint on 4 of the original Stroppe Racing Broncos with successful identification, I know what you are going through. Good luck and keep on it. As some suggested, keep searching for racing pics online and on ebay - try different search terms. I've collected random folks personal slides of important desert races and photos with detail for under 10 bucks at least 3 times in the past few years.
Wonderful thread, Thanks for sharing
By the way, aside from U.S. 30 near Gary Indiana, there is also Bunker Hill out somewhere near Kokomo Indiana, Great Lakes Dragway just over the illinois/Wisconsin boarder, and Oswego Dragway outside (well, long gone) Oswego Illinois.
I attended th MCCAN show a few years back and was AMAZED at the volume of vendors selling period photos from midwest tracks . I spent at least an hour looking at pics of racers this " west coaster" had never seen ( obviously). IF this car was "flashy" or did wheelstands in the day it "should" have been photographed.
Good luck!
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on July 31, 2019, 11:43:21 AM
I attended th MCCAN show a few years back and was AMAZED at the volume of vendors selling period photos from midwest tracks . I spent at least an hour looking at pics of racers this " west coaster" had never seen ( obviously). IF this car was "flashy" or did wheelstands in the day it "should" have been photographed.
Good luck!
Randy
That's a great point, Randy. I've come across websites where photographers from back in the day are selling copies of pictures they took back in the 60s / 70s. I found this, as I was researching a prior owner of 6S141. Although, 6S141 was never raced, the prior owner raced a 1965 Mustang in the H/Modified Class and won the 1975 Championship in Florida prior to purchasing 6S141. Professional pictures from his racing were available for sale.
Yes videos and pictures of my car 6S477 show up from time to time on the internet and youtube as well. Understandable for a car I have raced for 45 years. There are even some from the years I had it painted blue and ran at OCIR. Three major magazine covers don't hurt the "visibility" either
Randy
Quote from: roddster on July 31, 2019, 09:33:16 AM
By the way, aside from U.S. 30 near Gary Indiana, there is also Bunker Hill out somewhere near Kokomo Indiana, Great Lakes Dragway just over the illinois/Wisconsin boarder, and Oswego Dragway outside (well, long gone) Oswego Illinois.
Many thanks to you for this information and also to everyone for the words of support. All of it is helping to keep the search alive.
I will add these new local 60's tracks to my photo search...It appears after stripping the paint layers that this car (originally white) was painted Silver and had flames on the front nose/fenders along with wide blue lower stripes on the rocker panels.