Hello,
have you seen the skeetches in the other Thread ???
This are amazing for my Research Work ...
Nearly a Week with 12 Hours per Day i spending time to make an overview from Outside
and Inside from Princeton, overflowing from the Carter and even LAX Pics and the
knowledge that only a few People knowing something, but no person knows it all...
I am unsure if it is okay to make an own Thread, but i think i have some more Infos and
Photo analysed and so i will not spam the other thread...
For me both Thread have a reason to beeing in the Forum.
What do you think, what thinks the admins ?
But for First time lets start a Walk around Tour in the outside section
Fortunaly the Building are still exist and so, with help of Google Earth i can make some
Bird View Pics, Note: many things in Front and Backside are not like in the past days
but i will explain that pic by pic
Frontside and the Sidewall with 5 Windows in a row..
(https://abload.de/img/1mpjtp.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=1mpjtp.png)
Backside of the Building with parking lot
(https://abload.de/img/2xdjb2.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=2xdjb2.png)
Next Step we just walk from left to right Side in the Frondside.
Note: at the left Side there where no Windows, just a large Brick Wall
(https://abload.de/img/349jfo.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=349jfo.png)
Frontside Pic
Note: the large center Window, the Door and the Garage door are
naturally modified over the years...
(https://abload.de/img/47hj55.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=47hj55.png)
right Side show the little Street between 1042 and 1040 to the backside
of the Building
(https://abload.de/img/52hj83.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=52hj83.png)
Backside is ar rare one with lot of Details to make Photo analyses
Note: a little Door from Inside to backside
and even more important: 3 larger Windwos, each 8 Frames wide, 3 Frame high
the Windows are Barried ... NO Garage at backside !!!
(https://abload.de/img/654kts.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=654kts.jpg)
But enough for present Pics, lets just call the DeLoran Time Machine from Back to the Future and
jump around 1960 - 1965 :o
First Pic we see from Carter Building Parking Lot to Princeton Building, often see the other way round...
(https://abload.de/img/7mfjry.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=7mfjry.jpg)
Second one is most of the famous Pics from Princeton, Steve McQueen Visit in 1963, even with these
lovley Econoline Truck and notice this Van at the Garage door corner left side...
(https://abload.de/img/97ojbp.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=97ojbp.jpg)
third is the Backside with the Shelby Hauler Truck , Richstangs ask in his Thread where the Truck stands.
Answer: Right here in the Backside, look at the Window Frames ...
when you looked at the other Pics from this Point in Time, this Truck just bring the FlippedHood Cobra
to Princeton Drive for Nassau Speed Week, and not to stand in front aera he is just parked behind
Edith: it is proofed that the Cab NOT standing behind Princeton Drive 1042, maybe at the parking lot
from 1040
(https://abload.de/img/12oskro.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=12oskro.jpg)
Last Pic shown for today ist the first Pic inside, right from the Garage into the Building:
Note some very interesset Details in a Point of Time where knowone has these Famous Skeetch from the other thread:
so what we see for future Post looking even mor into the Inside of the Building:
- very early Pic from Cobra Production
- the posts working platform stands behind are shown in the Carter Building
Thread inside when there was the Cobra Production...
in later Pics we will see there are no more Post working platform at this
time
-most struggeling Detail for me (without knowing the Skeetch )
there is a Wall right backside, no bricket wall, a sliding door as well
but NO Windows at this Wall !!! but the Door exit on right side is open,
see some tires on a Rack and even on top some other stuff
-Poster from 10 Years Goodyear, we will see that later in other Pics
(https://abload.de/img/11efkll.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=11efkll.jpg)
So what you think about that
Greets
Steve
Great job, Steve...keep going!!
Steve,
This is a relevant topic to the Shelby American history so no need to worry if it is ok or not.
These are nice Google Earth current views with the angle looking down over the entire area.
Looking at this Diesel cab photo, I have decided it is most likely behind the 1040-1038 building, not Shelby American's 1042 Princeton drive building.
Here's why;
-1042 is not as wide as what we see in the photo. If it were 1042, we would see less windows and a gap for the alley way.
-I also do not think the cab is blocking the alley way. If it was, we would see more width to the building on the left as 1040-1038 is a much wider building.
-It does not appear have any matching features to the Carter Avenue building (such as the window placement, telephone/utility poles, etc)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/204-280318120810-8082493.jpeg)
Hmm interessting arguments, good Eye for Details :o
When i saw the pic i only wondering about this Tree on the left corner side...
The other arguments i am not so "Hard" seeing on this point...
For sure it stands in the backyard of a garage :-D
But i will do a little resarch of that...
Notice that the address painted on the door of the cab is 6501 Imperial.
Do we know how long the cross-over time was when Shelby had Princeton & Carter and was moving into Imperial? That would help signify the date.
I'm wondering if this pix could be at Carter? Agree with Rich that it's not the back of 1042 Princeton.
Quote from: Side-Oilers on June 28, 2019, 01:54:29 PM
Notice that the address painted on the door of the cab is 6501 Imperial.
Do we know how long the cross-over time was when Shelby had Princeton & Carter and was moving into Imperial? That would help signify the date.
I'm wondering if this pix could be at Carter? Agree with Rich that it's not the back of 1042 Princeton.
I believe the overlapping from Venice and LAX would be about late April / early May 1965.
We know the first batch of '65 GT350 R's were delivered to Venice on April 10th and the open house at LAX was June 7-8th.
EDIT: a Photo of the cab from May 9th at Laguna Seca appears to also have the 'W. Imperial' address on the cab doors.
I don't see anywhere that Cab could be parked at the Carter building, so I am really feeling strong on it behind 1040-1038 Princeton building.
OK, makes sense that the cab is behind 1040-1038 Princeton. Just wanted to check.
For another detective hunt, we could try and find out who was renting 1040-38 while Shelby had 1042.
I asked previously if we know for sure who the owner of Princeton and Carter buildings was.
Was it Reventlow, or did he merely sublet to Shelby?
I'm still thinking about the "newer red bricks" seen on parts of the buildings. Seems to make sense to me that Princeton and Carter were at built (and modified) by the same owner in a similar time-frame.
I've never heard a owner or business name mentioned for 1040-1038 Princeton building. (It certainly appears to be the same builder and / or renovator with the upper 2 floor offices)
I've been looking into Lance Reventlow for a number of reasons.
All indicators are that he owned and occupied 1042 Princeton from '60-'62 and then leased it to Shelby in Aug /Sept '62.
Nothing is ever mentioned about the Carter Ave building, so that is still an unknown in every way.
If Princeton was built new in '59 then who leased it the first year, or did Reventlow buy it as the first occupant from the builder?
Lots of tedious questions that remain unanswered.
Hello,
lot´s of Thoughs and opinions , i loved that, keeps the Thread alive ...
I agreed with you that the Cab no stands behind 1042 ... i will removed that from Thread
but i already think it stands behind the Princeton Buildings, because when it is too close
for front parking, they parking at the next best place, and even the Photographer (Friedman)
not runs Miles to do such Pic, they make it right at the Moment when it comes too the Scene.
Speeking about Time ...
I seriously have a problem to find Time Codes at alle the Pics ... i must mixed Pics from all
Times to look in every angle of the Building.
Note that when you looked at the Walk Around Tours.
and second Not; at the point where i made this already i have know clue about
these Shelby Skeetch, i just try it at my own to get all the pics in right order.
And so i go on to Part Two of the Princeton Drive 1042 with the first Inside View...
Enjoy it and share your Thougts, i done my best to make it entertainment.
First we make a step into the Shop, right Behind the garage, turn around and see outside
of the Garage door...
Notice: Look at the Sliding Door to right inner section wall
and even the Ventilator on the right corner, hanging on the roof ...
(https://abload.de/img/124pken.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=124pken.jpg)
than we go some steps backside, still seeing out of the Garage door.
we see some working Table on the Brick Wall, there is almost
place for two Rows of Cars side to side.
(https://abload.de/img/13h6kd2.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=13h6kd2.jpg)
You must spin around to the inner side and see right behind
the Wood Mold Daytona
you see that the Door is open, but even you can looked to a another
Window ( note the contrast to the last Pic in my Post befor),
this means that the Sliding door was open...
(https://abload.de/img/14jwje9.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=14jwje9.jpg)
Then we walked right to the End of the Shop, see the openend
sliding door and even the Tire Rack from last Pic in last Post,
notice the Text on the Wall which is important for later Pics and
where you stand in the Shop
The inside right Side with the Brick Wall with Windows are already done,
count the Windwos, it must be 5... when you get out of the door, you
can to backside of Building
(https://abload.de/img/15eajcf.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=15eajcf.jpg)
BIG QUESTION at this Point of my Resarch . ... what was at left side, just around the Corner ...
Well, turn you again and the right on the Edge of the inner section Wall...
This was a very surprising Pic i saw ... and even a time travelling point at the Pics befor with lot more of People and Cars in the Shop.
we saw the last Pic from Last post with the very early Cobra prodution line (not an Cobra expert but Series 1, small bodies)
and the working post station...
At this Point when you see the first Daytona Woodframe with some Metal on it, the hole Shop Aera are very clean,
no more post working station, even no more Cars, just this huge machine ( i think Bending machine) a single man and the Woodframe Daytona
Note for later Pics, look at the Sticker in right side with standing "NO ADMITTANCE"
(https://abload.de/img/16x6j23.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=16x6j23.jpg)
next Pic is right the opposite of the clearly Shop Area ...
Lot of Wireing, Parts, cabels, even it looks a little bit messy.
note the big Bending Machine standing there again
(https://abload.de/img/17v6knq.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=17v6knq.jpg)
(https://abload.de/img/199rjkw.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=199rjkw.jpg)
At this Point i like to make a full view in the Area behind the Corner ...
when you looked behind the Daytona you will notice the Brick Wall with these Text on the Wall,
also right at the End of the Shop, not so surprising at the Moment of the tour
(https://abload.de/img/2431kg5.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=2431kg5.jpg)
But now we stand right behind the Daytona Coupe and look at that (i was really surprised when i saw it first)
there is a little bit of "Working Office" Building in the Building ...
you still see the "NO ADMITTANCE" Sticker on the Door of the section Wall...
Fun Fact: Note the hanged up Jacket.
(Pic at the same Time Code like the pic befor)
(https://abload.de/img/27mzkup.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=27mzkup.jpg)
when you stand right behind the Daytona you can see left the little "Working Office",
in the middle the closed brick Wall what mean you look at the
end of the Body Shop or nearly of the left Side of the Building (looked at the First Pics from my first post)
and on the right to the inner section Wall
(https://abload.de/img/29k0kzf.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=29k0kzf.jpg)
with a better view of the right side to the inner section wall, we can see and open Door...
(https://abload.de/img/30eckue.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=30eckue.jpg)
(https://abload.de/img/31oykzi.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=31oykzi.jpg)
... and with these Pics i just finished for Today, later i will make modified skeetch what we see and proofed
know at this Time of the Tour.
I will finished with 2 Questions (without knowing the hole Skeetching at this time of Research
- What was behind the "Working Office", because there is some distance to the inner Brick Wall
- What was behind the Door at the right side
Greets Steve
Edith:
the skeetch drawing ... that´s we stand after todays photo excurse
(https://abload.de/img/1042princetondriveflo8ikuf.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=1042princetondriveflo8ikuf.jpg)
Steve,
You have picked some really good photos that help sort out and show the location of these main working areas of the Princeton shop. You may be the first person who has ever analyzed this building down to this level of detail before (and put them into words within a single thread). I honestly was not entirely sure what was going on in there, and haven't taken the time needed to analyze this myself.
To try and answer your questions;
-I think the 'working office' may be slightly further back towards the side brick wall from where you are showing it. (Farther away from the main driveway.)
Their should be a hall way somewhere in the center of that wall to the front of the building. It could be directly behind it. I need to see more photos of that area to be certain. (We can see the hall way in Allen Grant's floor plans).
Allen's floor plans may have been changed from paper to actuality or just off a bit in scale and positions. Certainly the windows don't look to match what is shown in the period photos (they are wider and spaced differently). Your sketch shows an accurate location for the sliding door along that back wall (visible when looking down the main area from the garage door opening. I'm still trying to figure out what is behind that sliding door and what is next to the corner outside exit door.
-The other door in the back corner of the fabrication work area (not a sliding door) probably enters the engine room at the very back of the building.
Great job on the newly posted photos and info!
Since we have the ability to now see perspective within the shop area, I'm wondering what was behind the "No Admittance" sign?
My guess is small storage area (closet) for tools belonging/responsible to the man operating the metal shaping machine, or to S-A itself.
Other thoughts?
In the Allen Grant floor plans sketch it indicates behind those 'No Admittance' double doors sign was storage.
I'm trying to find a decent photo of the area, but it's proving difficult to be certain what it looks like.
Here's a photo of the Fab Shop area from when it was under the Reventlow Automobiles Inc. ownership.
This photo was found on HotRod.com's website and noted as taken in July 1962 not long before CS leased the building.
It looks very empty compared to the Shelby American Inc. photos. I wish we could see more of what was happening in and around there at that time.
Great find. Is that bus in the background painted similarly to the one we've seen in back of Carter Ave?
Hello,
on Part 3 we will have a closer look to the Area behind this "Working Office" and in Part 4 that what i called "Engine / Dyno Run"
Let me First say that for me i was just sitting HOURS to only see perhaps 1 or 2 Details what Behind the doors ...
for the Area behind the "Working Office" there are only 2 maybe 3 Pics where i can located
(https://abload.de/img/32kzkzb.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=32kzkzb.jpg)
We see Working on Chassis CSX2286 - Daytona Coupe,
right behind some Section Wall
some not typical inner structure with some Wood between the
Sectional Wall going from Office Backside and going to behind
the section Wall in Front shows me there where a passage
on the roof we see the inner side Brick Wall to Outer Frontside
(or even to second Floor)
and Fun Fact: the Jacket inside the Working Office ;)
One of those Details who i regonice where i was and where i go,
was the Lamps hangingn on the roof,
we have the typically Neon but also these larger one on the right Corner
(Double Neon Light i dont know how to call this in English)
(https://abload.de/img/33jqj9i.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=33jqj9i.jpg)
Here we have see that someone stands in this passage ...
notice that over this inner section seperated from the working
area are a big Storage room over the roof of this section,
all is seperated with Mesh.
we see some part on racks, and even a Cobra Hardtop laying
on the "Working Office"
(https://abload.de/img/34tbkr3.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=34tbkr3.jpg)
Only Pic i found wich i dont asign to any secton of Princeton Drive was this
one ... i am not sure after all, but when i see the Skeetch from another
Post it is getting much more that is from the Aera behind section Wall
and Building Outer Wall
i see that Bike on another Pic, even ride from Mr. Shelby and next to
this landing in a river, but i dont find it in the Moment and it has
nothing to do with the inner side from the Building, only a little bit fun.
(https://abload.de/img/6779626528_f23ff4dc83f2joi.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=6779626528_f23ff4dc83f2joi.jpg)
Part 4 with the "Engin and Dyno Room" Coming soon.
And here comes Part 5 with "Enginge Room & Dyno Run"
first Pic i found was this one ... yeah a Dyno Run, but where the Hack is ths in Building,
so i was quick count the Window and they: Juchuuuu, at the Backside,
because 4 Frames wide x 2 = 8 Frames wide total
(https://abload.de/img/10vtkce.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=10vtkce.jpg)
second Pic i was located was this one,
i see the same center wiht engine or parts from
but the only Detail to locate where this Room was, are the Lamps looking behind the
Doors, you see this "Double Neon" ones from my Post befor...
Boy i wasnt sure after all when i make my Resarch but i was close and right enough...
(https://abload.de/img/1k3kd5.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=1k3kd5.jpg)
so i had some thougts and create the Hole Room behind this 2 Pics...
Lets go on ...
so start again with my Pic rought backside throw to the Door, we still se this Lamps outside
what we also see is the backside of the section Wall who seperate the Room from the
Working area...
theres is a wood Frame Construction and some sort of pipe going from right to left
(https://abload.de/img/1k3kd5.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=1k3kd5.jpg)
on the left side from the Pic befor along the Woodfram Construction with the showy pipe i found this nice one ...
the Man have some Bizeps.
but we still see also there is a Corner and a side Section Wall also,
these Means the room end here ...
(https://abload.de/img/948ka4.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=948ka4.jpg)
moving a little bit right from the standpoint we still see the Door open,
Woodframe Construction Section Wall but at the right side, the Brick Wall
and some Engine Parts hanging on the Wall (cylinder head gasket)
(https://abload.de/img/267kzj.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=267kzj.jpg)
here we see Door Closed, Brick Wall (Cylinder head Gasket on the Wall)
and a Man working, he wears a showy Pinafore ( i must google that ;D )
(https://abload.de/img/3uaj5m.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=3uaj5m.jpg)
first i dont even notice the Pic, nothing special on it, but i keep it in my head
and have see some Posters on Wall, even a Pin Up Girl one ...
(https://abload.de/img/5nqjr6.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=5nqjr6.jpg)
and then i was seeing this Steve Mc Queen Photos again, and yup,
same Pin Up Girl Poster, so we know Steve Mc Queen was there
to see Cobra Engin
(https://abload.de/img/6rijqv.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=6rijqv.jpg)
(https://abload.de/img/7kak2e.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=7kak2e.jpg)
A good Pic to see the hole Side from the Brick Wall ist the follwing...
we have also finished the Side behind the door from left to right corner
on the side Brick Wall with no Window on it...
(Remember this for later, there ar just not enough Door or space
to bring it out, but at this Point of Time i thinked they come out
of the Sliding door we saw an the first Pic inside)
(https://abload.de/img/848jey.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=848jey.jpg)
again on other Side wie spin ourself and look from inside thruw the
backside Window ...
this remarkable Dyno Run there is even and old Advertisment with this one
note the Doors !
(https://abload.de/img/10vtkce.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=10vtkce.jpg)
The Pic which brings the Woodframe Construction Secton Wall
together with the DynoRun Room is this one ...
You will see it in the Backround, so i had all four Wall together...
(https://abload.de/img/11kzkgh.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=11kzkgh.jpg)
We look at the Right Side from the Dyno Run and there is a Door going outside,
too, and some Woodframe Construction again right where the Dyno stand.
Note for Later Standpoint working ... we see the outer Side from Dyno Room, but
when there was another Section Wall we see from first pic inside, where ist this at
the Room ???
(https://abload.de/img/12b8kho.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=12b8kho.jpg)
(https://abload.de/img/13u1k9t.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=13u1k9t.jpg)
O.k. so far so good, but to exactly show where the Dyno stands i must got
inside ... At this point we only now after the first Window frame from
the Backside
But what is this, there is a Window, on the Backside, but only
4 Frames wide, not 8 like always said and count, then comes
another section Wall, note the little Window on right side...
these means the Dyno stands on Window 2 but only Half from these
Window
Also we have the only look at the Backside where is a parking lot
(not this Junkyard where the Diesel Cab parked, so it is proofed that he
stand no behind 1042)
(https://abload.de/img/15cekei.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=15cekei.jpg)
Last one is the outer corner from Dyno, nothing special, see the
frontdoor to Dyno, but i liked the Carroll Shelby Enterprises Logo
and see the 10 Years Goodyear Poster
(https://abload.de/img/180jjpj.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=180jjpj.jpg)
i will later add the Skeetch so far, but we also have another Part
because there must be the Sliding Door i said befor....
Stay tund and say something, not for my Ego, just to have
some thougts from you ...
Steve
(https://abload.de/img/1042princetondriveflom5jpm.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=1042princetondriveflom5jpm.jpg)
Quote from: Side-Oilers on June 29, 2019, 01:47:58 PM
Great find. Is that bus in the background painted similarly to the one we've seen in back of Carter Ave?
it is a different vehicle, not a bus, but it is painted as a two-tone.
Reventlow had a closed transporter in the US. I'm working on this and some other questions.
Referring to your part 3 post;
The "Working Office" as you call it, is next to the wide open area noted on Allen Grants floor plan listed as the 'Fabrication Shop' (behind it, towards the left side wall) and the 'Race Car Shop' (in front of it, towards the right side wall of windows). In your photo behind the working office we can see the hall way towards the front of the building that connects to the 'Machine Shop', the 'Locker Room', and the 'Foyer". That is a good photo to post for everyone to see.
The hanging lights have 'Fluorescent' tubes. Following those fluorescent hanging lights (usually single or double tubes) is helpful to understand where the rooms are located in all of these photos. We can see the machine shop lights have four (4) fluorescent tubes for much needed light, since there are no windows in there.
That photo of the motorcycle with the wide tires might be one of the few photos of the 'Storage Area' /'Parts Dept.'. Most of the walls are painted and this is one of the fell that we see as just raw unfinished wood panels. Did you see any others like that?
EDIT; adding photo of what I though was a good one for everyone too see.
Hey,
for the first time i dont understand all your words or the meaning of your words...
But when you say "This are a good photo to show of us all" please feel free to you posted it, or post it again..
Thanks for Explain this "NEON" Tubes in the right words ...
From the Motorcycle i saw a few pics, from this raw unfinished Wood Panels room, i dont see a second or more...
it is just the last pic which i never get asign to the other Area and so i mean it could be the "Machine" Shop area
What is the Differenz from Machine Shop ( in the Area behind Working Office) and Engine Shop (at the Dyno Run Area)
Added photo to previous post with an explanation (Edit). PM me what you don't understand.
I have not been able to find any photos from the 'Machine Shop...yet, to compare against the 'Engine Shop'.
I'll reply to the last 'Engine Shop' post shortly, I need to look through some photos again to confirm some thoughts.
Also, I'm working on a revised floor plan to explain some changes that occurred in that area over those few short years.
Quote from: Szabo on June 30, 2019, 06:07:17 PM
Hello,
i see that Bike on another Pic, even ride from Mr. Shelby and next to
this landing in a river, but i dont find it in the Moment and it has
nothing to do with the inner side from the Building, only a little bit fun.
(https://abload.de/img/6779626528_f23ff4dc83f2joi.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=6779626528_f23ff4dc83f2joi.jpg)
With all those parts on the shelves (bell housing, headers, tires on the floor, engines on floor under shelf units) this is very likely the 'Parts/Storage room.
There are no other pictures, so no more clues which wall the shelf unit is backed up against.
This is the only photo with this shop worker (short guy, tall hair) and with this background (that I've found).
Notice the wall is all one darker paint color, not lighter on the top half and darker on the bottom.
It appears he's working on the rear axle gears.
The only photos similar to that one color dark paint wall are behind the foreman's office (Working Office).
According to Allen Grants floor plans it shares the wall with the 'Machine Shop.'
Since it does not match that photo in details, (shelves on the wall) I'm guessing this is on the opposite side in the 'Machine Shop'
I've attached the comparison photo previously show as well.
Edit; Big mistake on my part...the wall is painted lighter on the top.
Hey,
thanks for having an eye on it, and still the only one who write some posts on it ...
I am not sure about your thougts...
what we see on your Pic shown is a section wall, dark paint below, brighter Paint above...
also this regal with lot of cans on it.
and i had this Pic in my mind, so i just overlayed pics a little bit and think it is from
the inner section wall running from right to left of the Building,
sepearte the Engine/Dyno Run Room from working area ...
i am not thinking this is from the "Machine Shop" aera (with bellhouses and other stuff)
(https://abload.de/img/30emjwa.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=30emjwa.jpg)
Wow, I don't know what I was looking at. It does have the lighter paint wall on the top and darker on the bottom.
I need to clean my glasses (Yea, I'll stick with that excuse)
:-[
The photo of the short worker is exactly where you show in the wider area view...in the Race Shop (not the Machine Shop).
We can see the shelves and paint cans on the wall in the Race Shop area.
Thank you for correcting me!
I have gone back and edited my previous post.
:-[
The photo with motorcycle and parts (bell housings, engines, tires, etc) was a separate post.
I still think that is the Parts/Storage room
Hello,
i will continue with Part 4
because i dont came on what´s the secret behind the Sliding Door and how is this connected to the Engine / DynoRun Room
befor i was looking only to pics from the Sliding Door Angle...
And this came up right now...
On this Pic we see, the sliding door is open, another room behind ...
on the left side we can see there is another door open.
(https://abload.de/img/38c8jb9.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=38c8jb9.jpg)
than i saw this Pic, one backside window (8 Frames wide) and even this
Woodframe Section Wall, even with some Pin Ups and some Cowboys
at work...
so i decided to look for pics with this woodframe section Wall,
always in Mind that this not can be the Engine / Dynorun Room befor
(https://abload.de/img/4020okuw.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=4020okuw.jpg)
and when i notice the Headers and the Cowboys,
it was easy to set thie pic on the right point ...
We see the outer Brick Wall with the Windows and even the Words
on the Wall (look at the Cobra pic some post befor)
so it must be the room right next to the door to backside and it is
all behind the sliding door...
(https://abload.de/img/401gmkkh.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=401gmkkh.jpg)
on this pic with another angle we see in the Working Area and even into
the "Working Office" with the Jacket hanging ;D
Remember when i wrote: Fun Fact...
(https://abload.de/img/404k6jyt.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=404k6jyt.jpg)
one last pic from the "Sliding Door Room" where i guess only frames or chassis were build ...
This must be a very early Pic, because no Pin up Girls on the Wall
Notice the "6" on the side ... i always thoug this was a Number for the Room,
but it was the first part of the Poster with "63 Daytona"
(https://abload.de/img/405dzjhx.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=405dzjhx.jpg)
So i have my thougts...
-Sliding Door Room is right next between backside door and DynoRun area
-where is the second Part of Backside Glas Window from DynoRun ?
-we cant see from DynoRun outer Door to Sliding Door Room directly ?
they must be another edge in the section Wall wich we dont saw on the
first pic directly from Garage Gate Entrance, because there it looks like
all in one Line ...
there must be antoher little area between those two areas, even more
on the inner section wall from left to right ...
Well i seek some hours again and found this Pics and so all come
together ...
Last Part at the Building and i am finished
there is little bit wider frame from the Sliding Door Room and on the left side we see a ladder standing
and i remember to the "Cowboy Hat" Pics we can see there is a lot of parts behind mesh over the Sliding Door Room
so i looked on and finally can bring that Pic to right position
(https://abload.de/img/60g1jqo.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=60g1jqo.jpg)
we can see into the Storage Room between Dyno Run and Sliding Door, there must be
the second Part of Window Frame from DynoRun Room and when you looked long enough
you can see that some lights from outside coming into this aera ...
also they stand a Gokart or something like this in the storage room ;D ;D ;D
(https://abload.de/img/58cyjaw.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=58cyjaw.jpg)
But still one clue was to solved ...
how came the inner section wall together with the edge of Dyno Run outer edge going into sliding door room
and last pic to solved the clue is this one...
Also there is a time clock / control clock for the workers ...
(https://abload.de/img/5566krw.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=5566krw.jpg)
So, my time on work is also closed... ;D in need just a coffee and some cakes to become
fresh energie..
Think about it again, i have no skeetched from the other post and find all Pics together over
Hours and Days, and now it looked so easy to scroll thruw nearly the hole Princeton Drive Building
At last i will add my skeetch ...
Greets and looking forward for my masterpiece ... Shelby LAX is coming soon after you wrote something
to Princeton Drive ...
(https://abload.de/img/1042princetondriveflojakzk.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=1042princetondriveflojakzk.jpg)
These are all great photos of the Engine Shop, the Dyno Room, and the Chassis Room. I agree, all of them are along the back brick wall.
With only a single 4 pane window in the Dyno Room there had to be another small room next to it, before the Chassis Room with another 4 pane window.
That area seems to be closed off in early photos, but later appears open.
We see it used for storage as you show with the photo of the #14 Cobra (csx2301 from around April 5th 1964 when it raced at Pensacola).
There is one photo from inside the Chassis Room looking out that is creating some confusion for me.
We can see a second wall behind it before the Race Shop area with the Foreman's office (working office).
On the wall is the worked time clock. In another photo we see that same section of the wall continues straight through to the engine room.
So, I think this was originally on open area with no wall and the wall with the time clock in the #14 Cobra photo was added at a later point.
Here's my interpretation of the floor plan with the before and after changes as noted above.
(I've also moved the three Cobras over one parking space in the front)
Rich and Steven, thanks for all your additional hard work and details.
Here's a bit of trivia I noticed in the last photo that Rich posted. The calendar on the left wall is a Santa Fe Railroad calendar. It shows a month with 31 days, and the 25th day is printed in a lighter color, probably red, to denote a holiday.
That would've been Wednesday Dec 25, 1963. (Dec 25, 1962 was on a Tuesday.)
I hope this detail helps with a dating of those particular photos.
Quote from: Side-Oilers on July 02, 2019, 11:14:40 PM
Rich and Steven, thanks for all your additional hard work and details.
Here's a bit of trivia I noticed in the last photo that Rich posted. The calendar on the left wall is a Santa Fe Railroad calendar. It shows a month with 31 days, and the 25th day is printed in a lighter color, probably red, to denote a holiday.
That would've been Wednesday Dec 25, 1963. (Dec 25, 1962 was on a Tuesday.)
I hope this detail helps with a dating of those particular photos.
Holy Crap! Nice catch on that detail!
None of the days look to be crossed off so for now we can assume the wall section was likely changed between Dec '63 and April '64.
THANKS!
nice input in this thread,
the pics are so full of details, wonderful eye on this.
I agree that the inside of the Building is modified over the years were are Working at...
and it is not so heavy to make some new section walls and paint it half light, half darker...
i do not really understand the meaning of the shown pic but of course i see there is no
section wall between chassis room and engine room...
so i will have an quick look to the pics again, maybe we found some more changing details
on it..
Here are two photos from the same angle in the back chassis room.
They are looking toward the open work area in the Race Shop section.
Some further digging finds this photo from when 1042 Princeton Ave was occupied by Reventlow Automobile Inc.
This was the last car (the only mid engine) Lance built there. I believe this was late July, maybe very early August '62.
Yes, that looks to be Phil Remington who originally worked for Reventlow, as did Ken Miles (as I've read elsewhere)
Notice the second floor with the white stucco on the neighboring building (1040-1038 Princeton).
We also see the different refined finish bricks on the front. It looks the same as when Shelby American is there a few months later.
I'm going to assume the second floor was not added on later, but rather built that way from the beginning construction a year or so earlier in '59.
Also, a few bits of info indicate CS took over the lease from Reventlow on the Princeton building.
He quickly realized it was too small for all the new projects.
Initially he only expected to build the Cobra's, but he quickly added the Tiger Sunbeam's, Daytona Coupe's, and or course the Ford GT40 program.
Shortly afterwards moving in Princeton, the Carter street building became available and CS rented it as well. (not at the same time as I suspected)
Rich, great finds!!
My question on the different type/finish of bricks is that it doesn't make sense to me why that "newer looking" part of that wall would've been original.
What could've they been doing...if not adding the second story? Something else that simply added that several feet of area to the front of the building?
Or, maybe the builder simply ran out of Brick Type 1 and had to switch to Brick Type 2 during the initial construction.
But, if you look closely at the parting line between the two types, even the mortar and brick alignment is not the same.
So, that still has me thinking it's a later add-on. But, yes, as you have shown, the building was that way when it was very new and leased to Reventlow.
Did you ever find out who the owner(s) of the Princeton and Carter buildings were? I'm betting it was the same person/company/builder. Especially with Carter having the similar front bricks evidence...which probably eliminates the Brick Type 1 and Type 2 idea at Princeton.
I am thinking that the change in bricks went with changing the buildings from being merely warehouses into warehouses with offices on the ground floor and a second story. And yes, even doing so in the one year time period since they were initially constructed.
OK, here's my photo findings for today:
Thanks to HistoricAerials.com, you can search a bunch of old aerial photos pertaining to a property's address.
Here are four time-period looks at Princeton and Carter streets: 1952, '63, '72 and 2014.
1952, '63 and '72 were the only three images from that early era.
(These are the free viewing resolutions/watermarks. You can purchase better quality and no watermark pix from them. Possibly get a closer look at the vehicles around the buildings in 1963.)
Thoughts?
Quote from: Side-Oilers on July 03, 2019, 07:33:13 PM
Rich, great finds!!
My question on the different type/finish of bricks is that it doesn't make sense to me why that "newer looking" part of that wall would've been original.
What could've they been doing...if not adding the second story? Something else that simply added that several feet of area to the front of the building?
Or, maybe the builder simply ran out of Brick Type 1 and had to switch to Brick Type 2 during the initial construction.
But, if you look closely at the parting line between the two types, even the mortar and brick alignment is not the same.
So, that still has me thinking it's a later add-on. But, yes, as you have shown, the building was that way when it was very new and leased to Reventlow.
Did you ever find out who the owner(s) of the Princeton and Carter buildings were? I'm betting it was the same person/company/builder. Especially with Carter having the similar front bricks evidence...which probably eliminates the Brick Type 1 and Type 2 idea at Princeton.
I am thinking that the change in bricks went with changing the buildings from being merely warehouses into warehouses with offices on the ground floor and a second story. And yes, even doing so in the one year time period since they were initially constructed.
Yes, I agree it seems unusual. They seem to use that same finished style of brick, with the cleaner pointed mortar at both Princeton buildings and on the Carter building for just the façade. I cant tell if they did the same with the building across the street from Princeton (behind the Carter building). The brick/mortar style change seems purposeful more than an accident such as running short on bricks. I got the impression that CS was the first person to rent/lease the Carter Avenue building. I don't really know where to look for the original builder. Nothing has shown up in any searches.
Quote from: Side-Oilers on July 03, 2019, 08:49:23 PM
OK, here's my photo findings for today:
Thanks to HistoricAerials.com, you can search a bunch of old aerial photos pertaining to a property's address.
Here are four time-period looks at Princeton and Carter streets: 1952, '63, '72 and 2014.
1952, '63 and '72 were the only three images from that early era.
(These are the free viewing resolutions/watermarks. You can purchase better quality and no watermark pix from them. Possibly get a closer look at the vehicles around the buildings in 1963.)
Thoughts?
Nice find! That's a really neat website. We can see the Carter building was there in '63.
It is impossible for me to see what the cars are in the photos, but 1042 Princeton certainly has lot going on in the back parking lot.
-Looking at the website, it appears the Carter building was still there until 2009!
Hey,
very nice input in this thread ...
i can´t say anything to this Brick Wall discussion ... but on my logical sense i would say that
there was a modification with add some space or make a stairwall to office section...
for the HistoricAerials Link i would like to say thank you very much...
for Princenton we already have this Bird View because the Building standing
but for Carter this one was new
I agree, on 63 there was some Action in the parking lot, but there was work to do :-D
I look again to some Pics to found out where some modification on the Inside
was maybe made...
Here we can look straightly from the Sliding Door of the "Chassis Room" to the Engine Room,
note on the same Pin Up Poster Hanging on the Wall, also same working tables and Person
(https://abload.de/img/6779611042_0e0f4dd59eomj82.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=6779611042_0e0f4dd59eomj82.jpg)
on second Pic we see no Storage Room between "Chassis Room" and "DynoRun"
(https://abload.de/img/6925733583_b1ff20aa33txjr5.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=6925733583_b1ff20aa33txjr5.jpg)
for the Pics shown in original Walking Around Thread i even can put this pic on,
we can see a little bit more of this "Storage Area" with the second Part of the Window,
this was meaining when i wrote "some lights from outside come in"
(https://abload.de/img/6925690443_7e5fbb29db3wjl5.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=6925690443_7e5fbb29db3wjl5.jpg)
Greets Steve
Quote from: Richstang on June 29, 2019, 11:18:28 AM
In the Allen Grant floor plans sketch it indicates behind those 'No Admittance' double doors sign was storage.
I'm trying to find a decent photo of the area, but it's proving difficult to be certain what it looks like.
Here's a photo of the Fab Shop area from when it was under the Reventlow Automobiles Inc. ownership.
This photo was found on HotRod.com's website and noted as taken in July 1962 not long before CS leased the building.
It looks very empty compared to the Shelby American Inc. photos. I wish we could see more of what was happening in and around there at that time.
The last Scarab car
Finally, a mid-engined two-seat sports car was built. They put another Buick V8 engine in this car and Reventlow wanted to test it on the streets of Los Angeles. So, he went to the California Department of Motor Vehicles and (after installing a muffler) managed to get license plates for this all-out racing car. He personally raced the car (without muffler) three times and his best finish was second at Santa Barbara.[1]
Reventlow was planning on closing down the Scarab operation so he sold this little sports racing car to John Mecom, Jr. of Houston Texas. Mecom installed a Traco-built 327 Chevy engine and put A.J. Foyt in the car. Foyt's best result was winning a pair of races at Nassau, Bahamas during 1963.[1] Walt Hansgen won the 1964 Bridgehampton 500 in the car while it was Chevrolet powered. Augie Pabst purchased the car and was still the owner as of 2013.
Another picture with Steve McQueen. Shows more of the interior of the shop on that day.
Sacred and hallowed grounds. Some religions have their holy lands, we have Princeton Drive. All is right in the world...I need some Shelby prayer beads before I visit 1042 Princeton Drive. Anyone know where I can order before I make the pilgrimage?
Best,
Richard E.
Hello,
i want to put some life in this Thread ...
i agreed with "deathsled", for me a personal goal in life would be there on Princeton Drive 1042
i hope in a about 9 years when i getting 50 Years old i planned to come to USA with my Son.
i looked cross for some more information and found a 1964 Ford Total Performance Promotial Video
for me the first seconds looks like it was filmed in the Engine Room with view on the Dynometer ???
and also i suggest that the 64 Galaxie 427 standing bevor Princeton Drive Building for some night filming ???
i only made this (bad) Screenshots ...
(https://abload.de/img/ftpprincetondrivermjha.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=ftpprincetondrivermjha.png)
(https://abload.de/img/fadsfsjjz7.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=fadsfsjjz7.png)
(https://abload.de/img/adsfy9klo.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=adsfy9klo.png)
the hole Video on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3DIPNE4I90
What do you think about that ???
I would not have expected to see a 1964 Ford Video filmed inside the Venice / Princeton building, but all the details of the Dynometer appear to be a match. I'm not so certain about the building exterior matching the Galaxie filmed section. Being filmed at night and poor quality aren't helping.
Rich, I agree with your thoughts. The exterior (of whatever building that is) has studio lights shining onto the walls, so that disguises it a bit.
Back then, of course, things were much simpler in terms of TV advertising production, and I wouldn't rule out that the exterior was Princeton. There seem to be enough similar cues to make it a possible match.
Hello,
not much is going on here, just blow the dust away :D
in a famous Car Magazin named "AUTO MOTOR SPORT" from 1963 March 23
i found a 1 Site Articel written by Bernard Cahier, an internationl Photographer and
worked for several Magazins in Europe
(https://abload.de/img/p1110558fdkrv.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=p1110558fdkrv.jpg)
(https://abload.de/img/p1110559hpj48.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=p1110559hpj48.jpg)
anbody have an idea which Cobra that is ? Because of this Roll Bar is look like a comeing race car
(https://abload.de/img/p1110562rhj90.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=p1110562rhj90.jpg)
(https://abload.de/img/p1110563uujug.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=p1110563uujug.jpg)
the best Pic for me is the Corner Pic into the Garage
when i start with research over a year ago, i wish i had this one for a better overview...
(https://abload.de/img/p1110564ijjz6.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=p1110564ijjz6.jpg)
I dont know the nearly Timecode but is look very early on SAI
the only other Pic are from a Book, Timed on mid 1962
for me its something special, normally in Germany i cant buy vintage, original Shelby Articel
because of Shipping and Customer (ZOLL) from USA.
but this 57 year !!! old Magazin in very good condition i buyed and when i open all this feelings are just amazing,
the touching feeling, because it is in german the quicker reading and understanding,
even that old b/w colour or that smelling of old paper is fantastic
sound a little bid neardy and wired but i have just fun with that ;D
the other Pics i know from early production on SAI
(https://abload.de/img/screenshot_2020-09-114sjte.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=screenshot_2020-09-114sjte.png)
(https://abload.de/img/screenshot_2020-09-11ioj75.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=screenshot_2020-09-11ioj75.png)
Hope you enjoy, share your thoughts on this ...
Stephan
Put some dust of it ...
nothing big here but some i always feel and think of this first thread i made and when i found
something new for me i will put it here, no matter how old the last post was ...
Hope you find some thoughts and share them to me
First i found 2 of the Pre-Princeton Era ... i have not much information about this Building,
can anybody explain me something about this ???
They are from a Autoweek Newspaper 13 + 27 April 1962
(https://abload.de/img/19620427motorracingshqljn3.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=19620427motorracingshqljn3.png)
(https://abload.de/img/19620413motorracinggowcjwm.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=19620413motorracinggowcjwm.png)
then i found some of the Princeton Drive
again Autoweek 30 March 1963
(https://abload.de/img/autoweek19630330princekkwm.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=autoweek19630330princekkwm.png)
Autoweek 11 May 1963
(https://abload.de/img/autoweek19630511drivixxkz3.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=autoweek19630511drivixxkz3.png)
Autoweek 14 September 1963
(https://abload.de/img/autoweek630914cobraadjajl4.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=autoweek630914cobraadjajl4.png)
Autoweek 09 May 1964
(https://abload.de/img/screenshot_2021-05-15qrk0h.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=screenshot_2021-05-15qrk0h.png)
Sante Fe Springs is where the first Cobra, csx2000 was completed.
Shelby had some space inside Dean Moon's shop.
He also sold Goodyear tires out of there before opening up his own shop at 1041 Princeton Drive in Venice.
Nice find on the sales ads!
Quote from: Szabo on September 23, 2020, 05:21:23 PM
Hello,
not much is going on here, just blow the dust away :D
in a famous Car Magazin named "AUTO MOTOR SPORT" from 1963 March 23
i found a 1 Site Articel written by Bernard Cahier, an internationl Photographer and
worked for several Magazins in Europe
(https://abload.de/img/p1110558fdkrv.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=p1110558fdkrv.jpg)
(https://abload.de/img/p1110559hpj48.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=p1110559hpj48.jpg)
anbody have an idea which Cobra that is ? Because of this Roll Bar is look like a comeing race car
(https://abload.de/img/p1110562rhj90.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=p1110562rhj90.jpg)
(https://abload.de/img/p1110563uujug.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=p1110563uujug.jpg)
the best Pic for me is the Corner Pic into the Garage
when i start with research over a year ago, i wish i had this one for a better overview...
(https://abload.de/img/p1110564ijjz6.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=p1110564ijjz6.jpg)
I dont know the nearly Timecode but is look very early on SAI
the only other Pic are from a Book, Timed on mid 1962
for me its something special, normally in Germany i cant buy vintage, original Shelby Articel
because of Shipping and Customer (ZOLL) from USA.
but this 57 year !!! old Magazin in very good condition i buyed and when i open all this feelings are just amazing,
the touching feeling, because it is in german the quicker reading and understanding,
even that old b/w colour or that smelling of old paper is fantastic
sound a little bid neardy and wired but i have just fun with that ;D
the other Pics i know from early production on SAI
(https://abload.de/img/screenshot_2020-09-114sjte.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=screenshot_2020-09-114sjte.png)
(https://abload.de/img/screenshot_2020-09-11ioj75.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=screenshot_2020-09-11ioj75.png)
Hope you enjoy, share your thoughts on this ...
Stephan
I'm not sure how I missed this post from September 2020.
That's a fantastic find of a German magazine dated in March 1963.
I would also like to know which Cobra Carroll is sitting inside (with the roll bar).
Could it be CSX2000 repainted in blue? OK, no, the gas cap appears to be in the center.
It's always neat to see inside Princeton Drive. It is rare we see a photo looking out towards the garage door!
Those look like production Cobra's being built. That photo was probably taken before the Carter Ave building was ready.
10820 Norwalk Bl. Santa Fe Springs is still the location of Moon Eyes.
Thank you for the replys
Of course, the Moon Eyes Shop where the first Cobra was build...
i search a little bit more for Princeton Stuff
and found a little bit ...
Opening of Princeton in Moto Racing 2 Nov 1962
(https://abload.de/img/motorracing1962nov2-9trkd3.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=motorracing1962nov2-9trkd3.png)
(https://abload.de/img/shelbyopeningprincetofdkgq.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=shelbyopeningprincetofdkgq.png)
and just some funny stuff in a book, looks like easier way of working...
(https://abload.de/img/159u4j8h.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=159u4j8h.jpg)
(https://abload.de/img/878nokn5.png) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=878nokn5.png)