My good friend Bill just had his numbers matching engine " professionally?" Rebuilt by a company in California! $10,500 later plus r&r cost it's smoking on acceleration not as much on deceleration has been Fowling 4 to 5 plugs and it's gone a quart low !! They ran it on their Dyno and did a break-in procedure! He is up here in Idaho with me and now having this engine in his shelby ; he's looking for help!! I'm thinking they misaligned the rings or during the break in procedure on the Dyno something was damaged but your opinions are very needed here ! We have not checked the compression but it cranks over evenly with each stroke and it runs With acceptable power ! Changed oil twice with recommended oil and two sets of spark plugs and they are still fowling with oil on them!?
Quote from: cob4ra on August 03, 2019, 12:47:55 AM
My good friend Bill just had his numbers matching engine " professionally?" Rebuilt by a company in California! $10,500 later plus r&r cost it's smoking on acceleration not as much on deceleration has been Fowling 4 to 5 plugs and it's gone a quart low !! They ran it on their Dyno and did a break-in procedure! He is up here in Idaho with me and now having this engine in his shelby ; he's looking for help!! I'm thinking they misaligned the rings or during the break in procedure on the Dyno something was damaged but your opinions are very needed here ! We have not checked the compression but it cranks over evenly with each stroke and it runs With acceptable power ! Changed oil twice with recommended oil and two sets of spark plugs and they are still fowling with oil on them!?
If you open up the engine then the company that rebuilt it may use that against you. What does the company that charged all of that money have to say about the problem? They should be the first to call. The engine needs to go back to them so that they can make it right. If they are a honorable company then they will take care of the problem . If they are not and you are stuck with it then start looking for another rebuild company as most likely some one is going to have to do a tear down to determine what the problem is . Remote diagnoses will not help much because it will still need to be torn down regardless to confirm any diagnoses. Just my opinion. Others may have different.
Could be one of several things, warped or misaligned intake manifold that is sucking oil or I had a new engine that had several bad valve guide seals or worst case broken or incorrect installed rings. I have had all three of these happen to me over the years. Good luck!
I had the same exact problem happen to me. I ended up giving the engine to a different shop to fix since I did not have confidence in them any longer. Turned out my cylinder hone was too smooth, and the intake was sucking oil at bottom due to inadequate gasket pinch.
I feel the 1st shop would have duplicated the same errors a 2nd time.
I would look for something simpler first. My first reaction is that this is a pcv issue
I first would disconnect and plug the pcv, then run the engine and see if the issue is still there.
Ford pcv connection designs were always questionable and were one heartbeat away from dumping oil into the intake manifold.
Right now, I'm a big believer in installing oil tank/scrapers into the pcv plumbing.
Sometimes big things get blamed on little things especially if there is a novice involved somewhere in line between the shop and the installation.
How many miles? Do a leakdown test - better than compression to see how much is getting past rings.
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 03, 2019, 06:47:13 AM
I would look for something simpler first. My first reaction is that this is a pcv issue
I first would disconnect and plug the pcv, then run the engine and see if the issue is still there.
Ford pcv connection designs were always questionable and were one heartbeat away from dumping oil into the intake manifold.
Right now, I'm a big believer in installing oil tank/scrapers into the pcv plumbing.
Sometimes big things get blamed on little things especially if there is a novice involved somewhere in line between the shop and the installation.
+1. Especially if there's been any messing with the valve cover baffles to accommodate roller rockers.
Thanks to all; tomorrow I'm going to block off his PCV. Valve and drive it some? How far to realize if it's changed? 3 miles? or? ; I wish I had leak down tools but I will run his compression in each cylinder and hopefully not any too different or low ! After all we've read here; the third will be an inspection of the intake manifold gaskets if the others check out ok ? Opinions??!
Quote from: cob4ra on August 04, 2019, 01:15:54 AM
Thanks to all; tomorrow I'm going to block off his PCV. Valve and drive it some? How far to realize if it's changed? 3 miles? or? ; I wish I had leak down tools but I will run his compression in each cylinder and hopefully not any too different or low ! After all we've read here; the third will be an inspection of the intake manifold gaskets if the others check out ok ? Opinions??!
It should show up vertually immediately.
You could get an inexpensive clear case fuel filter. Plumb it into the PCV hose and see if it is filling with oil.
Sucking oil into the intake manifold through the original pluming set up is very common. My parents had a new 76 Granada. It was completely stock with a 302. It was very similar to what I had in my 68 GT350. Sort of a generic Ford PCV set up.
They took it on a 500 mile trip new. When they came back, they had completely sucked the oil pan dry. How they survived and not have blown the engine is beyond me?
That original Ford molded twisted s shaped pcv to intake manifold hose IS part of the issue as is the connection point on the intake manifold.
You may not like the idea of an oil scrapper but here is a picture of what I did.
Early owners (64-5) don't like the idea of a closed breather system. In a sense they are right because of this issue BUT there is lots of data around that shows that they are giving about 25hp away by running open breathers.
IF you look for it, you will actually find a bunch of Shelby Comp cars with open breather systems that have arrived at the point of putting a very similar tank in line to their breathers.
I recently saw an S/C with one plumbed in and it dates from it's original comp days. This is not a rare and unusual solution or condition.
The siphoning is caused by the connection to the intake manifold being lower then the connection to the valve covers and the really bad, cheap quality of the pcv themselves.
Sure it's cool to run the Shelby Comp design of tall filler tubes on the "Comp" valve covers BUT that was done for racing reasons on Comp Cars that didn't have to go 10,000 miles without any kind of service. Rebel against the US Fedral and California emissions rules if you like but it just is foolish to do so. The closed design is just better all around.
You can always go to the head Priest for the Shelby Secret Police and confess that you have sinned and ask for absolution? Maybe for penance they will just make you talk nice to Corvette guys for 10 minutes or so? ;D
Try one of these spiffy pcv's. They are better quality (the best I can find) and the adjustability may help you out some?
http://mewagner.com/?p=444
Quote from: cob4ra on August 04, 2019, 01:15:54 AM
Thanks to all; tomorrow I'm going to block off his PCV. Valve and drive it some? How far to realize if it's changed? 3 miles? or? ; I wish I had leak down tools but I will run his compression in each cylinder and hopefully not any too different or low ! After all we've read here; the third will be an inspection of the intake manifold gaskets if the others check out ok ? Opinions??!
If you have someone follow behind in another car, you should know right away. If you smell oil in exhaust or see smoke, it will be easy to detect. It is possible the compression rings are sealing pretty well so your compression and leak down results could be ok, and it still may smoke. I did all of these tests, and paid for a borescope test as well. All were inconclusive, but it kept smoking and consuming oil. I also pulled and resealed my intake, but that wasn't the main problem. In the end, the engine came back out for re-hone and re-ring. Good luck. I hope you fare better than I did.
I had a similar problem found out it was my valve covers. Bought a tall set from Branda the baffle was too small the oil would get sucked straight into the PCV and into intake it would smoke badly on acceleration and when deacceleration. I used spacers and the original valve covers haven't had a problem since.
Dan
Bills coming over at 10 am and I will let everyone know " blow by blow " !
I removed the PCV and blocked it! Compression is high and fine! Number five spark plug looked like a coal factory in a oil storm ? Yuk! Still smoking like this picture; mostly drivers side
The next stupid thing that needs to be eliminated is a blown power valve in the carb.
IF this engine backfired even a little bit, just one time starting it up, you could have blown out the power valve and the smoke can be from excessive fuel.
The current valves are more delicate then fairy dust on a snowflake in summer. A strong running engine will run under those circumstances but dumping raw fuel into the intake manifold doesn't necessarily run equally to all cylinders. It might like #5 the best?
It's also going to do a job on cylinder washing which means flinging a mix of oil and fuel all over.
Make 1000% sure that the power valve is ok. Usually the only way you can verify that is with a power valve tester. I had six out of twelve NEW in the package bad valves. Just putting in a new valve doesn't guaranty it's ok.
While the carb is out check stupid thing number three. Your float levels. The Holley procedure for setting them dry is wrong. You will flood.
Two things add to the delema of fuel level. Too much fuel presuure, like adding an electric fuel pump in line with the mechanical and unleaded gas.
If you are using a carb with sight plugs in the bowls, you need to set the level down lower then "a trickle out".
If you are using a high pressure pump or dual pumps you have to limit pressure to under 5-1/2 psi otherwise the float levels are wrong.
I can't think of stupid thing number four yet, but I will. :)
Had to ad a quart of oil again; and it still wasn't at full " line! The smoke is a real pretty light blue like the lighter blue on my rear Gabriel shocks! And those plugs; wet with oil and black !
Sounds more and more like a ring or honing problem as has been discussed before given process of elimination and the evidence so far. Lets us know how the engine guy handles it.
You are just to the point of needing to disassemble the engine.
There is a forth stupid thing...when you install the intake manifold, do not use the supplied cork block gaskets. They are too thick. The manifold won't sit down in the valley deep enough. Usually it will cause a misalignment of the water passages but it could also leave the bottom of the intake ports open to the lifter valley.
Use silicone there instead.
This is also related to the thickness of the head gaskets that you use. The thinner the head gasket the larger the misalignment is.
When disassembling, go slow. Look for indications of intake manifold gasket and head gasket leaks.
could also be from a bad hone job. if plates weren't used while honing bores may be out of round causing major blow by.
There are three potential sources for oil to enter the combustion chamber and cause smoking. Rings , valve guides , and intake manifold ( gaskets or PCV)
Piston ring alignment on initial start up is not a valid reason as rings are in constant rotation caused by the cross hatch pattern honed into the cylinders. Banking on the professional shops talent , and that it appears to be on one side , I am leaning toward gasket seal at the bottom of the ports on the driver's side. Something like a honing issue or broken ring would ( or should) have shown up on the dyno test / break in. You might try retorquing the intake manifold but it may be too late to regain seal at the bottom of the port , "if" that's where the problem is.
Ramdy
A simple test for an intake vacuum leak: remove and plug P.C.V. and all other vacuum pluming to carburetor, leave P.C.V. or breather valve cover orifice open to atmosphere, remove opposite valve cover breather and insert butane torch nozzle (with bottle and contents attached), seal with rag, open valve mildly allowing butane to enter crankcase with engine operating at idle speed, engine will respond if leak is present in short order. ;)
Now for the caution, not that I have ever experienced such, as the density required to be released in the crankcase is small, and should not acquire such as to be ignitable, but, remember one is allowing butane, a flammable substance free without if only a "pilot flame", so be wary of unintended ignition, with improper handling or technique! :o
Don't forget the fire extinguisher! 8)
Scott.
BTW: the odor of burnt hair will be only temporary, and your eyebrows and the hair on your forearms will grow back! As when one plays with fire................ ::)
KABOOOM!!!! :o
I'll first ask Bill how much he has 6S852 insured for! Then I'm going to use my two headed heads only coin to flip to see who is going to do this ( I'm calling heads I win) ; I'm spoiled as 1680 runs perfect with no smoke or oil burning from its assembly! So Scott can you please come over and do this for us ?? I know Randy can't wait to try it !!
I'd consider paying a small fee to watch....
... from a distance of course.
Cheers
~Earl J
There are "smoke machines" that can be bought on the internet. I found a miniscule vacuum leak that turned on a check engine light with one. Saved me $500 that the dealer quoted to do the same thing No burnt hair either.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on August 06, 2019, 04:42:53 PM
There are "smoke machines" that can be bought on the internet. I found a miniscule vacuum leak that turned on a check engine light with one. Saved me $500 that the dealer quoted to do the same thing No burnt hair either.
Randy
On sale;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/EVAP-Smoke-Machine-Diagnostic-Emissions-Vacuum-Leak-Detector-Tester-USA-MADE/282241437563?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item41b6e68f7b:g:EeIAAOSwImRYHi1F&enc=AQAEAAAB4BPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVs%2F5h7qTeOSgvAKheDRBkFZmSCUE8AT62qSZh77cCOyRhZq%2F2tce1P%2B%2FfXGwfriXdWtDT%2FLrE5gSZ6Ce7r05UJcPmeMMIT11A3DicKleOjYeIcLCVCLpUXily8npV9xqOQaxg%2B5CRzG7aRfRpZO8N%2FbrtZPuNa2nmMUsTpMolC8z%2BVZuSnRSb8Ptpt20d3GpRPrlCTpud7ydXov4AjPnU93uprK3a7%2Bk%2BAFp1uu3u2VqBzBOfLnvweTDzQdI60ubVuN1P2lodiKswuqrdjLG5KRJ%2FBYymDCnP7Y0wS%2BwHuth%2BUfgvMAH7CQ4FLUHNREbM9oOye3f6y0T8vAfJ%2BOHnaA89x8Geo9XMMy48gsksoQQAhYxRBD7QG%2BMftXYj5Fyb9AVvNQcVzfNVScEdWP%2FVxZUIL7eoBFBZFpRSveMlSN600UUKU2d2KNMDsw5j7B90L3GWcCzrbzPoWmCopeLQC82szcAnPe8XQShQ9SMOJqFC4b4XMAXc2dQ3BwlMMwSKcDYDfvC9ZY39tSQFMhpbQCHDrbnUCmZGzXAJCEs4BIDgsLA5Xm4LMgTPuAqLxMdlkGRmmtxkvw82c%2BbJpZGNqmdgCy2bQ79mjTGeUaF52Fg%3D%3D&checksum=282241437563bfb43079f27c40b39584ee1bca73c75a
Edit; I have no idea why the eBay address is so long. :-\
My friend bought a slightly higher priced one as he uses it every day in his business. The one you show is perfect for the occasional user and can be used for checking power boosters , vacuum lines for climate control systems , and much more.
Randy
Quote from: pbf777 on August 06, 2019, 12:17:27 PM
as the density required to be released in the crankcase is small, and should not acquire such as to be ignitable,
Scott.
All joking aside, this process does work, WITH PROPER TECHNIQUE, of coarse. If one wishes to test functionability (word?), first test, leave P.C.V. system intact, note effect, you will realize that only a small amount of butane is necessary, and particularly with a vacuum leak drafting the crankcase, no great sum is allowed to accumulate; with this familiarization then proceed.
O.K, so perhaps O.S.H.A. wouldn't approve; after all, "strike-anywhere" matches were replaced by "safety-matches", as some individuals just shouldn't be allowed to play with matches! ???
And, you can trust me, as I'm also a guy who when mounting BIG truck tires and it comes time to "blow em up", the initial inflation and seating of the bead is accomplished with the use of acetylene and a match....., it works every time...., KABOOOM! 8)
Scott.
BTW: If you do screw-up and singe something, don't get pissed-off at me; you perhaps should not be allowed any matches! ::)
My son built his own machine. It caught fire. ;D
We do have a real one here now and it works quite well. It's very useful on current production cars because of their extensive plumbing.
The machine requires you to plug it in to an air pressure line. Remember that the crankcase seals at best can hold 15 psi. Don't go plugging the device into your compressor with 150 psi. It will blow the seals out. That is depending on your plumbing.
Even if you disconnect the pcv system, if you have an intake manifold leak into the lifter valley, you are pressurizing the crankcase.
I have a Bosch smoke machine for late model EVAP, and other leak diagnosis. The smoke additive also leaves a UV light trace. The machine also has a gauge to measure the leakage amount.
You may want to try to borrow one-often local auto parts suppliers can but put tool mnfg field rep in touch with you. I'll bet they will be able to find/loan/demo one for you (often to demo-video). Once you see them, if you have dealt with probs, you want one.
They are not all that common-only shops that really focus on late model diagnosis have them or would consider them in my experience. Machinists want them but typically don't get them. The list over a $1k typically.
When I rebuilt the 289HP in my 67 in Sweden 35 years ago, it smoked like a chimney. I found out the problem was in cylinder number 4 (passenger side closest to the firewall). After removal of the head and oil pan it was obvious there was a scratch
in the cylinder wall. Took out the piston and it was the chrome-moly ring had a burr on it. A friend and experienced engine rebuilder asked if I hadn't deburred the chrome-moly rings as this was a known problem. I said the rings were new and he said
it doesn't matter. After honing the cylinder and deburring I switched the angles of the ring openings 150 degrees. It solved
the problem so I think Bob Gaines' suggestion it can be the rings is a very valid one to investigate.
Texas Swede
At this point it could be a lot of things including a bad ring or cylder wall and for that matter a broken intake manifold with a leaking runner.
We could start a pool and bet on what we think it is and give a prize to the winner.
It's just at a point where the only way to find it is to disassemble.
There are lots of strange things happening. For me, intake gaskets are not matching up well. Early intake manifolds are not fitting up well to later blocks and heads.
I've got a thermostat housing leaking fluid and the only thing left is that the housing itself is porous and leaking right through the casting.
Some items like that never had any consideration of still being in use 50 years later.
Although a ring issue is a possibility, the quantity of oil being consumed doesn't line up with that. We're dealing with probability now, not possibility because literally anything is possible.
That no longer matters. The top or the engine has to come apart with AT LEAST the intake coming off.
I'd bet on the intake manifold misalignment to the ports on the heads, but that's just the latest guess. I just did my own T/A intake install and it's very fair to say that the intake gaskets were an issue.
Third time install was a charm...except for that thermostat housing. That's not done yet. ;) Two sets of head gaskets. Issues that didn't exist 30 years ago.
At least you can see the smoking. I was losing a quart of oil for every 100 miles driven. Never a wisp of smoke and only an occasional drop on the ground under the engine. The baffles in the valve covers had been gutted for clearance over roller rockers. The oil was getting sucked up the PCV valve to the intake and then the cylinders to be burned and exhausted. So why no smoke? I wondered the same thing until I saw an article by Curt Vogt in the last printed Shelby Annual. He says that synthetic oil will not smoke when burned in the engine like petroleum based oil. And I've been using synthetic. But I can tell you it will foul your spark plugs. Ha, ha!
Steve
bills 852 at the ford store was scoped and tested for intake manifold leaks! The cylinders were oily wet and one picture will show you some disconcerting bore scraping!
They ran a device that would have pulled smoke? If the Intake manifold gaskets were leaking and it was sealed tight so they detected no leaks to the intake manifold gaskets
The scoring marks are upsetting but they aren't radical enough to be causing this situation. The source of the oil is from the top of the engine.
Still the most likely source of that QUANTITY of oil is through the intake manifold.
Valve guides can leak due to the vacuum put on them by the downward movement of the pistons but I've never seen "rebuilt heads" with the leak that much oil consistently from cylinder to cylinder.
Many freshly rebuilt heads don't even need valve stem seals. One exception would be that if the rebuilder knurled the guides to tighten up clearances rather then replace the guides themselves. But the guides need to be completely replaced not just sleeved and reamed.
That procedure is going to leak a lot of oil too. You need an entire new guide installed in the head.
Incidentally, if you should happen to remove the heads for any reason, before reinstalling the heads, make sure you take a good shop vac and clear out the space between the pistons and the block walls.
Scoring is going to be caused by something stuck in there between the piston and the bore. It could be carbon particles, small pieces of the coating from the head gaskets or something in the anti-freeze that is going to get in there when you break the seal of the head and the gasket.
It's difficult if not impossible for something to get between the ring and the block bore because of the ring tension.
Quote from: cob4ra on September 17, 2019, 10:37:56 PM
bills 852 at the ford store was scoped and tested for intake manifold leaks! The cylinders were oily wet and one picture will show you some disconcerting bore scraping!
For a newly rebuilt , low mile engine the pictures show UNACCEPTABLE bore conditions. Those vertical scratches are "In My Professional ( yes I do this everyday) Opinion" excessive and will prevent proper ring seal. This situation will not fix itself over any amount of time. It is imperative to ( on tear down) determine the ACTUAL cause of those scratches and eliminate the cause before repair/ reassembly. If this was a 50-60,000 mile engine I would expect what is shown. With low miles it is a serious issue.
Randy
I've suspected that the Dyno guys may have caused this condition if they did not run a correct break in procedure ? But the scoring of the bore? Dirt or grindings in bore not properly cleaned properly?
Was the engine builder a shop that you or a car buddy has used before?
Quote from: cob4ra on September 18, 2019, 02:15:03 PM
I've suspected that the Dyno guys may have caused this condition if they did not run a correct break in procedure ? But the scoring of the bore? Dirt or grindings in bore not properly cleaned properly?
Without seeing the piston out of the bore it is difficult to see the cause. It could be ring material off of the second ring becoming embedded into the piston skirts , rings butting . or some other possibilities. I'll stay tuned for more pictures.
Randy
You will all be in the Loop on what we find when it comes apart ! and side oilers I do not know who this builder is ?? he talked the talk and it was a California builder not sure of the name of the company but my friend Bill is the one who researched and found them! Sooo! As the saying goes! On calm seas a sailor never learns how to be a great Sailor !
Quote from: cob4ra on September 18, 2019, 03:21:07 PM
You will all be in the Loop on what we find when it comes apart ! and side oilers I do not know who this builder is ?? he talked the talk and it was a California builder not sure of the name of the company but my friend Bill is the one who researched and found them! Sooo! As the saying goes! On calm seas a sailor never learns how to be a great Sailor !
I can only assume given the nothing has been said that the CA engine builder is not standing behind the problem ?
Lots of "discovery" is needed before constructing the "hanging tower".
Randy
Quote from: cob4ra on September 18, 2019, 03:21:07 PM
You will all be in the Loop on what we find when it comes apart ! and side oilers I do not know who this builder is ?? he talked the talk and it was a California builder not sure of the name of the company but my friend Bill is the one who researched and found them! Sooo! As the saying goes! On calm seas a sailor never learns how to be a great Sailor !
OR NO ONE CAN PUT BETTER COMBINATIONS OF FOUL WORDS AND PHRASES TOGETHER THEN A DRUNKEN SAILOR. ;)
Bill researched this engine builder by a mustang Magazines article and it gave him the assurance that they were the right guys to rebuild his unopened original engine, I got to go over by phone some wants on the rebuild (based on my engines experience from when Mine was done)with the senior guy there . JGM ? I've never heard of them but I hope that they will take care of Bill after he gets it torn down and we all analyze it !
All the racers on the left coast of heard of grubbs shop. They are first class, hope it gets figured out!
Yes if it is in fact Jim Grubbs Motorsports they are a first class high end operation. They have built many circle track engines for well known racers out here. All work done in house including dyno testing. Let's see what the autopsy reveals.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on September 20, 2019, 11:08:40 AM
Yes if it is in fact Jim Grubbs Motorsports they are a first class high end operation. They have built many circle track engines for well known racers out here. All work done in house including dyno testing. Let's see what the autopsy reveals.
Randy
Isn't the typical protocol for the shop that did the work to be the one to do the tear down like I mentioned in reply #1 of this thread? Or is it that their examination would not be trusted? I can't think of another reason to go to the extra time and expense for someone else to do it other then the shop that built it. What am I missing ?
Logistics may play a part. If the engine is in Idaho , JGM is in the north end of Southern California which is close to a thousand mile separation. If the issue was simple like a gasket or PCV , it would make sense to fix that where it is. However what my trained eye saw with the bore - o - scope pictures is NOT a "field fix". I agree with you Bob , in that if "I" were the builder , I would want to do the tear down. Not because additional damage could happen , but because "clues" could be lost in the process by someone not seeing them or knowing what to look for. We can easily agree JGM did not "build" the engine with scratched up bores and it probably didn't smoke when it was on their dyno. "Something" has obviously changed.
Randy
Bill told me that the first start up in the Ford shop; it filled the whole shop with smoke 😳
Was that after the dyno session or before? If after , the problem obviously happened on the dyno runs.
After it was on the dyno then all the dyno notes came back to Idaho with the done engine; then the master tech installed back into the Shelby
I was speaking to the great Doug Anderson (the Ford engine Guru) from Automotive machine service in Albuquerque the other day seeking advice on assembling 6S281's engine. Doug rebuilt the heads including new bronze guides, also went through the entire engine including very carefully balancing the entire rotating assembly. I was asking him about assembly lube and he gave me some very specific instructions. He is a firm believer in using Clevite/Maule products, they make one assembly lube specifically for crankshaft associated bearings and one specifically designed for camshaft specific parts. He told me a story about one of his customers who assembled his own 289 and had problems with oil consumption and smoke. After quizzing his customer he figured out that he had used the crankshaft assembly lube in the cylinders as a pre-lube. Apparently some of the assembly lube's are so slick they won't allow the rings to seat properly. He told me to use nothing but motor oil on the Pistons, wrist-pins and rings. He also mentioned that shops have been known to install the rings upside down, that would definitely cause oil consumption and it might explain the scoring in the cylinders. Although there are many things that could be causing the smoke problem with Bills engine I thought the timing of this information may be helpful to others.
I'm anxious to hear what the final verdict is on Bills engine. Please keep us posted!
I have also seen the top ring in the second groove and the second in the top BESIDES being installed up side down. I couldn't agree more with your friend Doug. Engine oil on the piston skirts and ring faces. This practice allows the rings to begin seating during the actual engine assembly process. DO NOT "dunk" the piston and rod assembly in a can or bucket of oil. Oil on the top and behind the rings is not how the engine runs normally. That is a very bad practice and will cause detonation on initial startup . Oil and gas do not "play well " in the combustion chamber. I quit using bearing lube unless the engine is going to be stored for a long period before initial start up. "I" prefer to use engine oil and use the drill motor to establish oil pressure in the engine before initial startup. I also quit using a "moly paste" style cam lube and use an extreme pressure grease sold through Dart Machinery. It's in a yellow and green tube with a CD logo on it. It does a better job and doesn't "contaminate" the oil . I have seen moly paste use on piston skirts and rings as well. Not the right thing to do .
Randy
Grubbs shop knows the difference between lubricants, coatings, etc. Other engine builders send their engines to Ryan for problem solving, these guys build some of the most expensive, rare, and powerful engines for any applications. I have seen some 50-100k off shore boat, record setting engines they built that were sent from all over the planet, and they are stunning! A 289 with scored cylinder walls is well within their wheelhouse of abilities. Lets wait for the prognosis. :-\
If the engine builder is reputable, I would ship the engine back complete to have them resolve it.
I think if you start tearing it down, you own it.
I know of several shops where the warranty ends at the shop door on a high performance engine.
Quote from: 2112 on September 24, 2019, 11:33:01 AM
If the engine builder is reputable, I would ship the engine back complete to have them resolve it.
I think if you start tearing it down, you own it.
I know of several shops where the warranty ends at the shop door on a high performance engine.
^^^True all.^^^
Quote from: 427heaven on September 24, 2019, 11:23:30 AM
Grubbs shop knows the difference between lubricants, coatings, etc. Other engine builders send their engines to Ryan for problem solving, these guys build some of the most expensive, rare, and powerful engines for any applications. I have seen some 50-100k off shore boat, record setting engines they built that were sent from all over the planet, and they are stunning! A 289 with scored cylinder walls is well within their wheelhouse of abilities. Lets wait for the prognosis. :-\
+1 Everything so far is "armchair speculation" though well meant , "reality" is often far different than the guesses given. As I said before , Jim Grubbs Motorsports is a top notch operation. They will find the cause , no doubt about about that.
Quote from: 2112 on September 24, 2019, 11:33:01 AM
If the engine builder is reputable, I would ship the engine back complete to have them resolve it.
I think if you start tearing it down, you own it.
I know of several shops where the warranty ends at the shop door on a high performance engine.
Yep, reply #1 of this 4 page thread.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 24, 2019, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: 2112 on September 24, 2019, 11:33:01 AM
If the engine builder is reputable, I would ship the engine back complete to have them resolve it.
I think if you start tearing it down, you own it.
I know of several shops where the warranty ends at the shop door on a high performance engine.
Yep, reply #1 of this 4 page thread.
I have to stop plagiarizing! ;)
Quote from: 2112 on September 24, 2019, 01:17:16 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 24, 2019, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: 2112 on September 24, 2019, 11:33:01 AM
If the engine builder is reputable, I would ship the engine back complete to have them resolve it.
I think if you start tearing it down, you own it.
I know of several shops where the warranty ends at the shop door on a high performance engine.
Yep, reply #1 of this 4 page thread.
I have to stop plagiarizing! ;)
I hope you know I didn't think that . I should have put a +1 to show my post was done in agreement.
Quote from: gt350hr on September 24, 2019, 11:45:49 AM
+1 Everything so far is "armchair speculation" though well meant , "reality" is often far different than the guesses given. As I said before , Jim Grubbs Motorsports is a top notch operation. They will find the cause , no doubt about about that.
+2 Call Grubbs and get to the bottom of the issue(s)
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 24, 2019, 04:16:13 PM
Quote from: 2112 on September 24, 2019, 01:17:16 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 24, 2019, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: 2112 on September 24, 2019, 11:33:01 AM
If the engine builder is reputable, I would ship the engine back complete to have them resolve it.
I think if you start tearing it down, you own it.
I know of several shops where the warranty ends at the shop door on a high performance engine.
Yep, reply #1 of this 4 page thread.
I have to stop plagiarizing! ;)
I hope you know I didn't think that . I should have put a +1 to show my post was done in agreement.
Well, I should have acknowledged you said exactly the same thing earlier, but the wink emoji was to signal I knew you were just confirming.
Perhaps I'm a little out of touch because I tend to do most of my own work when possible but doesn't $10,500 sound steep for rebuilding a HIPO 289?
About 9 days ago Bill sent them a detailed letter with Fords scoped findings!! I was told that the dad retired from the engine builders; so far from them " crickets " ! I disagree with the lack of concern ! I'm thinking on my own part ( not Bills) that this " may " HAVE BEEN " a reputable builder ! I'm hoping for them to step up but last I've heard they have not responded ! I've become more skeptical with age and having so many cylinders bad I would not recommend them even so many here responding have had good results!
The oil control rings are not installed properly IMO. The original builder should make it right and if they don't there isn't a lot you can do. Sue them ?, you can if you want to spend $20K to get $10K back. Just tell everyone you talk to about what happened and move on. Their reputation will suffer and a lot of times that is way more important than the $. Hopefully they make it right and you are moving down the road :-).
Quote from: gt350hr on September 18, 2019, 06:12:06 PM
Lots of "discovery" is needed before constructing the "hanging tower".
Randy
As stated earlier, .............and myself somewhat familiar with engines and their potential failures, even with perhaps some formed opinion of possibilities in this instance, would suggest that without observant disassembly and components in hand by knowledgeable individuals, the rest being only speculation and innuendo, I don't believe it to be honorable to pass judgement here, as is so fashionable within perhaps lesser forum groups. :)
Scott.
The first thing to confront is the cylinder wall condition.Don't waste your time looking at the heads because the cylinder scratches didn't come from leaky valve stem seals.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on October 07, 2019, 11:17:26 AM
The first thing to confront is the cylinder wall condition.Don't waste your time looking at the heads because the cylinder scratches didn't come from leaky valve stem seals.
Randy
+1 . Cylinder wall condition is compelling evidence .