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The Cars => CSX 2000 Series => Topic started by: 6R07mi on September 05, 2019, 02:20:16 PM

Title: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: 6R07mi on September 05, 2019, 02:20:16 PM
Would this be one of the Ford Engineering cars? early 260?

-- "11M103" Michigan MFG plate would be Ford
-- The wall in the background suggests Ford Dearborn Engineering Center
-- the trees suggest May ~ Sept in Mich.
CSX2008 prior to body removal?
Other possibilities ??

regards,
jim p
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: gt350cs on September 05, 2019, 02:24:31 PM
Sorry, I do not have that plate in my records. It would be great if someone could provide this information. Good Luck.
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Richstang on September 05, 2019, 02:46:45 PM
I'm doubtful it is csx2008 (edit/with correction; that white Cobra was csx2014 per Jim). It was at Riverside in February painted white and prepped for racing.
Looks more like a standard street car.

That doesn't look like it's at the Ford's 'Research & Engineering Center' or the 'Proving Grounds' test track.
That wall is built with continuous curves with no vertical posts as shown in your photo.

This photo of CS & the Cobra might be at another Michigan/Ford Campus location.
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Side-Oilers on September 05, 2019, 02:59:29 PM
Any chance that's CSX2000?

I agree with Richstang.  I've been to, and driven on, the Dearborn PG many times.  This photo doesn't exactly match up.

Can't swear what it looked like in the 1960s, but judging by the flowers and the curbing behind CS's right foot, I'd guess this was outside a building somewhere on the Ford Dearborn property.

BTW: The photog should have lowered the camera by two inches to get rid of the tree branches from behind Carroll's head and making him look like crazy hair.
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Dan Case on September 05, 2019, 04:35:38 PM
Any chance that's CSX2000?

No.  Later car with early production features and options. I have tried for years to figure out which chassis it is. 

In higher resolution images of that car that day it appears that the sun visors and wind wings very early ones.  Front grille guard, Shelby American type front registration plat bracket, and the particular model of rear view mirror on the dash makes me think the second or third batch completed.
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Side-Oilers on September 05, 2019, 07:58:27 PM
Thanks, Dan, for the added info and clarification.
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: 6R07mi on September 06, 2019, 12:28:35 PM
I'm doubtful it is csx2008. It was at Riverside in February painted white and prepped for racing.
Looks more like a standard street car.

That doesn't look like it's at the Ford's 'Research & Engineering Center' or the 'Proving Grounds' test track.
That wall is built with continuous curves with no vertical posts as shown in your photo.

This photo of CS & the Cobra might be at another Michigan/Ford Campus location.
Richstang, I have #98 at Riverside as CSX2014

Note: the location I suggest is not in the track compound where the wavy wall is, but rather across Oakwood in the Styling/Design complex

regards,
jim p
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Side-Oilers on September 06, 2019, 02:05:29 PM
Jim,
I think you're correct about across Oakwood, at the Styling/Design complex.  The brick wall there is more consistent with the photo.
Good eye,
Van
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: honker on September 06, 2019, 09:34:18 PM
No idea where this was taken, but a similar wall behind the Mustang concept.

Mike
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Richstang on September 07, 2019, 10:24:03 AM
I'm doubtful it is csx2008. It was at Riverside in February painted white and prepped for racing.
Looks more like a standard street car.

That doesn't look like it's at the Ford's 'Research & Engineering Center' or the 'Proving Grounds' test track.
That wall is built with continuous curves with no vertical posts as shown in your photo.

This photo of CS & the Cobra might be at another Michigan/Ford Campus location.
Richstang, I have #98 at Riverside as CSX2014

Note: the location I suggest is not in the track compound where the wavy wall is, but rather across Oakwood in the Styling/Design complex

regards,
jim p

Thanks Jim, You Are Correct!
That white Cobra I posted was the same car that Skip Hudson raced in the '63 Daytona two weeks later (csx2104).
I'll go back and edit my post.
(the 'RacingSportsCars' site had it noted incorrectly back many years ago when I saved the photos.)

Also, I found a photos of csx2008 dated in late June '63.
That doesn't give it much time to be built since the trees have leaves in your Cobra body photo, but it is possible.
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Richstang on September 07, 2019, 10:43:24 AM
No idea where this was taken, but a similar wall behind the Mustang concept.

Mike

Great find Mike!

I'd like to know where that location is. It does not appear to be in the courtyard of the "Research and Engineering Center' off of Oakland.
Here's a photo of the Mustang concept car in the courtyard with the wavy wall in the background.

Also, here's another photo of the concept in the same location as Mike posted showing the wall with posts. They can't be far from each other!
I was standing in the 'R&E' courtyard back in the early nineties as a design student on a tour of the facility.
Is the 'Design Center' in a different area then the 'Research Center' ... maybe that's that difference for the location of Jim's photo with CS and the Cobra?
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: honker on September 07, 2019, 11:14:25 AM
Rich, great photos, not seen those before. don't want to get off topic, here's CSX 3001 ? with a wall, looks to be a different colour

 of bricks though ? Wonder where that's taken ?

Mike
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Richstang on September 08, 2019, 10:19:42 AM
Here's a bit more info on CSX2008 noted as an original white 260 Cobra (article from Jeff Burgy aka CobraJeff)
The link seems to be down at the moment, but I saved this clip from the article; I'll try to post the link again later if this one doesn't work.


https://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/newsroom/2018/01/long-lost-1963-_bordinat-cobra-concept.html
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: 6R07mi on September 09, 2019, 12:15:10 PM
Rich, great photos, not seen those before. don't want to get off topic, here's CSX 3001 ? with a wall, looks to be a different colour

 of bricks though ? Wonder where that's taken ?

Mike

Mike,  Your photo gives another clue, the view beyond the wall is most certainly Greenfield Village, I'll have to look around when I'm there next month.

Just a FYI, the whole Engineering center will change a lot in the next several years and many of these reference structures will be gone as Ford is spending 1.2B to renovate the campus!

jim p


Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Side-Oilers on September 09, 2019, 12:30:32 PM
Do you know if the Dearborn Inn will survive?  Lots of fascinating and salacious stories, if that old hotel could talk!
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: 6R07mi on September 10, 2019, 09:07:07 AM
Would this be one of the Ford Engineering cars? early 260?

-- "11M103" Michigan MFG plate would be Ford
-- The wall in the background suggests Ford Dearborn Engineering Center campus
-- the trees suggest May ~ Sept in Mich.
The car color looks lighter than CS's pants & shoes suggesting a color that renders lighter in B&W than black,
I'm leaning towards red or dark blue, refining the list of possibilities to:
CSX2004 - engineering car  red / blk
CSX2048 - pool car   red / blk
CSX2096 - ??  red / blk
CSX2126 - Ford / McCord Engineering  car  red / blk
or there are blue cars CSX2122, 2125, and green cars 2119, 2120

regards,
jim p
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Dan Case on September 10, 2019, 09:32:30 AM
I would not believe it was CSX2126.

Information available through the AC Owners Club includes CSX2126 being overseas as a running car between early May 1963 and March 1964. It was photographed at LeMans along with CS 2030 the rack and pinion steering prototype car. It was the prototype test car for Ford / McCord radiators, McCord expansion tank, Ford designed and supplied electrical systems, Ford alternator charging system, and Stewart Warner instruments. It was the second car with rack and pinion steering, the first with left hand drive rack and pinion steering. It was finished as a chassis before CSX2080. While overseas it was photographed by a magazine and several pictures were published. In those pictures some large American Mercury tail lamps are shown.
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Side-Oilers on September 10, 2019, 12:22:52 PM
Based on the other things in the photo that we suspect we know the color of, and how black-and-white film reproduces such photos, my guess is the car is blue.  Red tends to look much more grey in a B&W pix.

However, since there were green cars, as noted by Jim P., there's a possibility it could also be a metallic green.  Similar appearance in B&W as a metallic darkish blue.

What color was the 1963 Michigan license plate?  That might help.
 
Just my $0.02 as a long-time car photog.
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Coralsnake on September 10, 2019, 02:43:47 PM
Dark green and white for the plate
Title: Re: Cobra ID, CS & early roadster at Dearborn
Post by: Dan Case on September 10, 2019, 03:01:02 PM
Based on the other things in the photo that we suspect we know the color of, and how black-and-white film reproduces such photos, my guess is the car is blue.  Red tends to look much more grey in a B&W pix.

However, since there were green cars, as noted by Jim P., there's a possibility it could also be a metallic green.  Similar appearance in B&W as a metallic darkish blue.

What color was the 1963 Michigan license plate?  That might help.

 Just my $0.02 as a long-time car photog.
The Registry indicates that CSX2048 was repainted a custom “pearl” paint and used as a show car.
Based on the Registry colors other than red, black, and white started early in the second chassis contract.
CSX2104 finished in AC Cars “Bright Blue”
CSX2108 finished in AC Cars “Princess Blue”
CSX2112 finished in AC Cars “Vineyard Green” and beige interior.

Bright Blue was similar to Ford Guardsman Blue but definitely not the same (I have an original paint Bright Blue bonnet removed from its Cobra decades ago and well stored since hanging on a wall as a decoration. I have my Ford color paint out sample from back when I had to spot repair the side stripes on my original paint 1965 GT350 decades ago and make the repairs invisible. )

I have tried several times over multiple years to figure out what car that might be. Several issues confound the research. 1) Many new Cobras spent some time in the Ford fleet for some reason or another or for some VIP or another. 2) As photographed production details that would narrow which contract series and or which shop completed the car are not visible.  3) Ford sometimes made changes to cars in their possession (e.g. CSX2004 and CSX2008) so you might stumble upon before and after pictures. 4) Fleet cars returned to Shelby inventory tended to changed for all kinds of reasons including repairs and reconditioning after return to Shelby American.

What I have kept a watch for is any documentation that Ford tested Firestone® brand tires on car number  (?).