Would someone please explain how much difference there is (was?) between the GT40 MkIIs as built/raced by Shelby American vs the "lightweight" cars run by Alan Mann at LeMans in 1966?
(I'm especially wondering about this after seeing the Movie a couple of times and trying to explain to non-car folks about the yellow Mk II XGT-1 that we visit at the Simeone Museum)
Thanks.
I'm not sure that was ever documented scientifically? At the time it was proprietary information.
thanks Doug. I wuz wondering why no immediate/detailed response here (usually the BEST source)
I'm also going to try emailing the Librarian at the SImeone Museum... they have a huge stash of books and other documentation. Maybe something definitive?
Im sure you can get educated at the spring fling, when a lightweight car appears.
I don't know if you can find an original as raced version of each to compare?
Also at some point (for the '68 race season), the cars are no longer GT40's! They are GULFS!. I'm not sure how the Alan Mann versions relate to this since to me, there is just a changing of the VIN tags.
I was standing in the pits in '68 with a friend looking at the "Gulf". I can't remember what track it was now? Must be the lingering effects of the fumes of all that race gas? Hum? Might have been Lime Rock?
The Ferrari people come after me there also? Must fear 'Yanks? ;)
The rear deck was open and I was looking for the VIN tag on the firewall behind the driver's seat. (engine side).
My friend didn't know what he was looking at and I said "it's a '40". Well with that, one of those 'Euro' jockey/socker players appeared (might have been Mann himself?) and cursed me out something fearse.
Closed the rear deck and started screaming about it's a "GULF!". What a nasty SOB!
It was that Grabber blue with orange highlights and orange horseshoes on it. Never did find the VIN tag or number on it.
It had a Boss 302 with huge 2" something primary pipes on the headers. Neat car but guarded by some kind or a nasty UK Euro trash pit bull.
Quote from: mark p on November 25, 2019, 10:10:56 PM
Would someone please explain how much difference there is (was?) between the GT40 MkIIs as built/raced by Shelby American vs the "lightweight" cars run by Alan Mann at LeMans in 1966?
(I'm especially wondering about this after seeing the Movie a couple of times and trying to explain to non-car folks about the yellow Mk II XGT-1 that we visit at the Simeone Museum)
Thanks.
In the 2019 SAAC
Shelby American Annual, page 140, the Spring issue, Greg Kolasa the SAAC GT40 Registrar has an article on
XGT-3 - The Never Raced Racer, It Doesn't Get Older - It Gets Better. This was the third of the three lightweights built for Alan Mann for 1966 that would run , the other two being XGT-1 and XGT-2.
He states that basically the cars had aluminum body work in place of fiberglass saving more than 100 pounds.
Quote from: JD on December 27, 2019, 09:21:39 AM
...In the 2019 SAAC Shelby American Annual, page 140, the Spring issue, Greg Kolasa the SAAC GT40 Registrar has an article on XGT-3 - The Never Raced Racer, It Doesn't Get Older - It Gets Better. This was the third of the three lightweights built for Alan Mann for 1966 that would run , the other two being XGT-1 and XGT-2.
He states that basically the cars had aluminum body work in place of fiberglass saving more than 100 pounds.
Thanks JD,
I thought that I'd seen references to "aluminum construction", but it was not really clear.... I'd better get reading on the Annual!
... can also check with the museum curator about the aluminum vs fiberglass parts.
64-65 original GT40 with small block
65-67 MKII with big block
67 MKIV (all carry J chassis numbers) with big block. Completely American built car
1968 FIA changes rules to ban big block engines
1968 original GT40 comes back a Gulf Mirage with new body work wins until 1970 if I remember correctly.
There was also a street (small block) MKIII with a different nose to get the headlights up to a US legal height.
The "light weights" were the small block cars. After Mile's death in the breadwagon J car they added a lot more chassis connection points and completely redid the bodywork. The MkIV was VERY heavy for the time.
There is some discussion on the Alan Mann GT40s and on that subject, some caution should be exercised as there are two very different "Alan Mann Lightweight" GT40s. The first two are AM GT40/1 and /2, which were built around lightweight Abbey Panels chassis. These cars had slightly narrowed roof sections (not as narrow as the Mirage cars) and all-aluminum bodies; small-block engines provided the power. They debuted at Sebring in 1966 where neither finished although while they were running, they were fast. Next stop was at the LeMans Trials in April where, again, the cars were fast but didn't last. Being concerned that the cars wouldn't survive 24 hours (or worse still, they outlast and outperform the Ford factory MKIIs), Ford instructed Mr. Mann that if he should wish to enjoy the benefits of Ford support, he would do so with 427 MKII cars. The AM cars were sold off (one going to Paul Hawkins to eventually become among the winningest GT40s ever).
Alan Mann had three essentially standard MKI chassis built up (recall that MKIIs were modified from MKI chassis received from Abbey Panels) but with lightweight roof sections; dimensionally, the cars were identical to the Shelby/Holman-Moody MKIIs. These cars were designated XGT-1, -2 and -3 and were being built into MKII racers by Shelby American at the airport, along with the cars that they (Shelby) and H-M would race; Mann and H-M personnel joined the Shelby crews to assist in the construction. In late May (I believe), it was decided to stop work on XGT-3 to save on critical manpower, parts and time expenditures. GT40 P/1012, which was run by Mann at Spa and which was still in Europe would be designated as the spare car for the Ford LeMans effort. XGT-3 was not completed until AFTER LeMans and as a show car for the MKII Tour following Ford's victory. Initially, it was completed as a near carbon-copy of the winning P/1046 but later repainted red. Neither of the XGT cars (XGT-1 and XGT-2) entered by Mann at LeMans finished (LeMans was their only race), and it is the yellow #8 XGT-1 that currently resides in the Simeone Museum.
There are some nice period pictures of both types of Alan Mann GT40s (taken by Chuck Cantwell and Ron Sampson) in my "Through Their Own Eyes" article, which is in the 2017 SAAC Annual and my article on XGT-3, the "Never Raced Racer" appears in the latest Annual. And, of course, for those who'd like to further overdose on Alan Mann GT40 information, there's always the Cobra/GT40 Registry.
I hope this clarifies things...
Greg
AM GT40/1 will be on display at this next year's Indiana SAAC Spring Fling. Come see the car, talk to the owner, get all the Alan Mann information you can handle.
May 15-17. Nashville, Indiana, Brown County State Park.
Thanks for those details Greg. Seems like plenty of room for confusion when one considers those earlier [very quick] Mk Is.
If I concluded that a "lightweight roof section" was the main difference between XGT-1, 2, & 3 and the other Mk IIs (answering my original question)... would that be correct?
Greg,
Thanks for the write up on the lightweight Alan Mann Ford GTs!
Your articles in 'The Shelby American' were also informative and enjoyable with all the new shared photos.
8)
I took some photos of XGT3 back in 1977 at a SAAC MCR activity "Carnival of Cars" at the old Packard proving grounds,
the car was unrestored then.
http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218120802.jpeg (http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218120802.jpeg)
http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218120914.jpeg (http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218120914.jpeg)
http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218120350.jpeg (http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218120350.jpeg)
http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218115824.jpeg (http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218115824.jpeg)
regards
jim p
n a magazine called Hot Car I found this article. But I m not any clearer when the chassis were made....
New 1966 Ford GT MkII Le Mans Racers (But It Costs $700K)
You Can Buy A Brand New 1966 Ford GT MkII Le Mans Racers (But It Costs $700K)
BY JONATHAN BERGMAN
PUBLISHED MAR 26, 2020
Let's check out the Holman-Moody Ford GT40 MkII and what makes it so unique in an era of mass production and high tech infotainment.
Holman Moody GT40 1
John Holman got his start swinging a wrench and driving a parts truck during the 1952 Mexican Road Race. He was later hired by Ford to run their stock car racing arm. John Moody drove in NASCAR proving quite successful in the 1956 season. Due to a ban on manufacturer supported stock car racing, the pair struck out on their own buying what was left of Ford's racing operation in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Holman-Moody would go on to be one of the most powerful and influential designers, manufacturers and supporters of stock cars, endurance specials, and engine building in all types of applications. They were synonymous with Ford and NASCAR, developing and building stock cars for use in competition throughout the 1960's and 70's.
HOTCARS VIDEO OF THE DAY
They also developed and campaigned the famed GT40, a fact which is sometimes obscured in the history books due to the outsized role of Texas "Snake Charmer" Carroll Shelby. And while they are no longer involved in racing, they've continued to crank out new build GT40's based on the original chassis. That's right, you can now buy a brand new GT40 MkII just as it appeared in the 1960's. These are not reproductions but faithful originals.
Let's check out the Holman-Moody Ford GT40 MkII and what makes it so unique in an era of mass production and high tech infotainment.
The Holman-Moody GT40 MkII
Holman Moody GT40 5via Holman-Moody
The Holman-Moody shop is located in the epicenter of the NASCAR racing world - Charlotte, N.C. While it's not in the exact same location when it was founded over 60 years ago, the entire operation complete with original tooling, equipment, machinery, and even welders, fabricators and craftsman who have been with the company for years still work there.
The Ford GT40 MkII was the first true, racing iteration of the famous GT40 that would go on to win the 1966 24 Hours of Le Mans. It's the same car that was also featured in the breakout hit, Ford v. Ferrari, last year that charted the people, personalities and cars involved in the historic run. The new build cars are unique in that they are not reproductions or replicas but originals down to the last detail but separated by over a half century. Holman-Moody had the extra chassis' and they either tracked down original parts or hand fabricated the rest based on the original blueprints.
Just Like The Originals
Holman Moody GT40 6via Holman-Moody
To make the bodies of the car, the original molds were used and kept true to the as-raced GT40 MkII's. Powering the MkII was the legendary Ford 427 FE sideoiler engine topped with medium riser heads and a bulletproof bottom end, aluminum intake manifolds, and hand assembled at Holman-Moody's own shop just like they were in the 1960's.
Bu the degree of authenticity only went so far. Some minor improvements and modifications were made with experience and modern requirements in mind. According to Lee Holman, "some modifications [were] necessary for safety. The oil cooler had been located in the fender well above the driver's feet, to avoid severe burns in accidents it is now positioned safely behind the passenger's seat. The rear suspension pick-up point now uses two bolts to distribute the stress, as opposed to the single bolts on the older cars. [And,] we changed the fuel delivery system from the original three pumps and multiple valves to a simpler and more reliable two fuel cell system, each having its own pump."
Primed And Ready To Take On Le Mans ... Again!
So how many chassis' are left over? Holman-Moody claims they were nine originally and of this writing it's not clear how many are still available for sale. The purchase price starts at $700,000 but with options and configured to a customer's tastes you can expect that figure to go well north of that figure. That certainly is a lot of money but when you consider that original GT40 MkII's easily bring in the seven and eight figures these new build cars might just be a steal. Plus, you have the benefit of modest upgrades and a brand new vehicle.
John Holman's son, and company head, Lee Holman says they have no plans to produce any more out of fear of diluting the brand. My hat's off to Lee's decision and the company his father founded. Buckle up.
Were the Alan Mann cars built by him or to his specs by FAV?
I remember when Shelby would not build/sell a Daytona Coupe to John Willment he just went ahead and made his own - which ended up more aero than the original.
Quote from: mark p on November 25, 2019, 10:10:56 PM
Would someone please explain how much difference there is (was?) between the GT40 MkIIs as built/raced by Shelby American vs the "lightweight" cars run by Alan Mann at LeMans in 1966?
(I'm especially wondering about this after seeing the Movie a couple of times and trying to explain to non-car folks about the yellow Mk II XGT-1 that we visit at the Simeone Museum)
Thanks.
Mark P - speaking of XGT-1, here it is @ TWS when Rick owned it. He & David are playing pretty hard. Music is good too, starts @ 3:03... Enjoy ~5:22 of vintage footage from the mid 70's. Think Dave was running a B302 w/Webers @ the time. XGT-1 just walks away...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYorxErdODE
thanks for posting that video (not sure why I didn't see it until today). Wow.
I guess no surprise that the GT40 would walk away? ... what would the top end speed be in a GT350?
I had been wondering if the yellow MkII in the other thread ("Random Ford GT - original..." post #76) seen recently was XGT-1.
Quote from: mark p on December 27, 2021, 08:37:59 AM
thanks for posting that video (not sure why I didn't see it until today). Wow.
I guess no surprise that the GT40 would walk away? ... what would the top end speed be in a GT350?
I had been wondering if the yellow MkII in the other thread ("Random Ford GT - original..." post #76) seen recently was XGT-1.
It's the aerodynamics that hold the GT350 back. Probably what the Super Snake did at 170 something is about the expected limit presuming it has enough power.
218+ mph that was done at Lemans with the '40 is somewhere around it's limit?
I do remember Gurney pulling away from the "chase" plane at Lemans in the black one.
I kinda' find this interesting. If you follow F1 at all, the electronic wing controlled by the computer puts those cars just about where that number is on the '40.
I don't think that the "Mann" cars are as fast down the straight as the 427 cars are? Maybe stick a little better in the turns though? I don't know which drivers had to work harder?
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 27, 2021, 09:19:23 AM
Quote from: mark p on December 27, 2021, 08:37:59 AM
... what would the top end speed be in a GT350?
It's the aerodynamics that hold the GT350 back. Probably what the Super Snake did at 170 something is about the expected limit presuming it has enough power.
218+ mph that was done at Lemans with the '40 is somewhere around it's limit?
Yup. Thanks.
if the Daytona Coupe could "only" make to about 180, I didn't think that
any Mustang could hang with a MkII.
Pretty big difference between the race car (GT40) and a street car that started out as a secretary's car ::)
The Allan Mann Mk2s had an aluminum greenhouse and completely diffterent front suspension that was much more adjustable and a few other differences. Heres some pics of 1 during a restoration I Supplied parts for