SAAC Forum

The Cars => 1967 Shelby GT350/500 => Topic started by: BGlover67 on December 09, 2019, 01:41:12 PM

Title: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: BGlover67 on December 09, 2019, 01:41:12 PM
Recently I was having a discussion with a friend about the early '67s with hand engraved VIN plates.  What's the current thought on these?  I thought I remembered someone saying all the cars with them seem to have Shelby American finishing dates before 11/1/66.  Also, many of the cars from this time period, had their original plates replaced with the later, more commonly found stamped version?  Just another quirky feature found on early '67s.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Richstang on December 09, 2019, 01:53:34 PM
Not much new to add.
10/31/66 is the last SAI Completion date I've seen with a hand engraved VIN.
I've only noted 6 cars with one of these hand engraved plates.

Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: shelby101 on December 09, 2019, 02:12:22 PM
I just purchased #78 and it has the hand engraved vin plate. 

Richstang,

Is #78 on your list?
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Richstang on December 09, 2019, 02:25:07 PM
Yes it is, but THANK YOU for the note!

Edit; Congrats on your purchase!!!
Any thoughts of repainting it in the very rare original Bronze?
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: shelby101 on December 09, 2019, 02:29:02 PM
Definitely, but for now I am going to drive it and bang through the gears for a few years. 
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Richstang on December 09, 2019, 02:37:46 PM
Definitely, but for now I am going to drive it and bang through the gears for a few years.

 8)    ;D
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: JD on December 09, 2019, 03:00:19 PM
Recently I was having a discussion with a friend about the early '67s with hand engraved VIN plates.  What's the current thought on these?  I thought I remembered someone saying all the cars with them seem to have Shelby American finishing dates before 11/1/66.  Also, many of the cars from this time period, had their original plates replaced with the later, more commonly found stamped version?  Just another quirky feature found on early '67s.

That is what my observations have shown Shelby Completion dates before 11/1/66, but it's '67 Shelby so not carved in stone
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: 67_1183 on December 09, 2019, 03:03:33 PM
Also, many of the cars from this time period, had their original plates replaced with the later, more commonly found stamped version?

One of the replacement plates was offered for sale on eBay back in 2017 for almost $3k.

Here is the highlights of that listing:

Quote
Details about  1967 GT-350 ORIGINAL SHELBY SERIAL NUMBER TAG FOR 51st SHELBY NOT A REPO!

 Seller information
piedmontpartsandcollectibles (409 )

Price:
US $2,995.00
From $144 for 24 months

Item location:
Charlotte, North Carolina

Not sure who owns this car right now,but if you have this car,it does NOT HAVE THIS!This will make it more original.Stamped at the Shelby factory.Taken off when car was near new.The ONLY ONE!

Here was Dave's response (saved from Forum 1.0):

Quote
I believe these tags were stamped back in 1967 to replace the hand lettered tags. Because these exist, doesn't mean it is the original tag installed on the car when new. It is a replacement.
Dave

Quote
The tag coming up for sale on eBay is unfortunate but not as big a deal as some might think. The tag is only a very small portion of the car. The Ford VIN, history and other unique components of the car make it what it is.
The unused tag has a story and it was obtained by someone who has no ownership of the car. Was it a take off like the eBay add states? It looks unused to me and one of the duplicate tags we see now and then. We have been successful in squashing every car we are aware of that someone has tried to clone.

#51 has great documented history. No tag on eBay will effect it's authenticity. If it is put on an air car, we will inform the proper authorities about it. If that happens Federal laws would have been broken.

Dave
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Richstang on December 09, 2019, 03:09:12 PM
How the eBay seller got that original tag is beyond me.
Fortunately, as Dave mentioned, this car has an exceptionally well known history and the current owner is aware of the eBay replacement tag.
The Shelby police are watching...
 ;D
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: BGlover67 on December 09, 2019, 04:14:49 PM
Don't worry, I have it on good authority that VIN plate is safe and in someone's very capable hands.  ::)

It will NEVER end up on an air car.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: capecodmustang.com on December 09, 2019, 04:28:49 PM
Hand etched plates?

Love 'em....
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Richstang on December 09, 2019, 04:33:19 PM
You've just confirmed my #6 from the previous owner...no names needed.
Thanks for sharing!
 8)
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on December 09, 2019, 08:29:57 PM
Definitely, but for now I am going to drive it and bang through the gears for a few years.
I hope you continue to drive and beat on it after repaint/restoration. They are cars not wall hangers.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Richstang on December 09, 2019, 09:05:34 PM
Definitely, but for now I am going to drive it and bang through the gears for a few years.
I hope you continue to drive and beat on it after repaint/restoration. They are cars not wall hangers.

If my info is correct, I think he needs to put it back together first.
 :-\
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: BGlover67 on December 09, 2019, 10:23:49 PM
Definitely, but for now I am going to drive it and bang through the gears for a few years.
I hope you continue to drive and beat on it after repaint/restoration. They are cars not wall hangers.

If my info is correct, I think he needs to put it back together first.
 :-\

Rich,  Not quite sure what you mean.  He bought Henry's car.  It's very complete, just red now.  Awesome driver.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: JD on December 09, 2019, 10:24:10 PM
I just purchased #78 and it has the hand engraved vin plate. 

Richstang,

Is #78 on your list?

#78, shelby101, is a running driving car, #11 not so...
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: shelby101 on December 10, 2019, 02:34:01 PM
Yes, it's all together and drives very nice.  Will need some suspension work soon...
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: gswann on March 13, 2020, 09:01:47 PM
Hey Guys,
I'm new to the forum but have car #75 and it is a hand etched plate as well. 
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: rcgt350 on March 13, 2020, 10:10:44 PM
What is the completion date of 0075?
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: gswann on March 13, 2020, 10:49:46 PM
Sorry, I'm ashamed to say I don't know the build date but would love to find it out.  Is that in the registry?  It wasn't in any of the documentation I can find that came with the car, but I may not have it all.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: rcgt350 on March 13, 2020, 11:08:04 PM
The SA completion date will be in the Registry.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: JD on March 14, 2020, 01:06:36 AM
Sorry, I'm ashamed to say I don't know the build date but would love to find it out.  Is that in the registry?  It wasn't in any of the documentation I can find that came with the car, but I may not have it all.

Congratulations on your car a rare Bronze car.

San Jose build date is listed in the 2011 Registry as 10/21/66 and the Shelby completion date as 10/31/66.

Suggest you contact Dave Mathews the SAAC '67 Registrar he can probably fill you in on more...dmathews@prodigy.net

Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: TOBKOB on March 14, 2020, 10:10:18 AM
Quote
Sorry, I'm ashamed to say I don't know the build date but would love to find it out.  Is that in the registry?  It wasn't in any of the documentation I can find that came with the car, but I may not have it all.
You may want to get a Marti report on your car.  :)

TOB
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: mark p on March 14, 2020, 05:53:49 PM
Definitely, but for now I am going to drive it and bang through the gears for a few years.

+1, and
+1  8)
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: gswann on March 14, 2020, 10:00:37 PM
Hey guys, thanks a lot on the details, I really appreciate it.  She definitely isn't bronze any more but it is great to know her origins.  I will definitely reach out to Dave to get more details.  Thank you all very much! 
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: oldcanuck on March 15, 2020, 12:11:05 PM
As rare as bronze is.... you just might want to consider taking it back.

Just my  $ .02 .....
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: capecodmustang.com on March 15, 2020, 12:16:27 PM
Nothing wrong with Burnt Amber....
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: gswann on March 15, 2020, 03:57:40 PM
I will definitely consider it.  It really looks nice!
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: 2112 on March 15, 2020, 04:02:21 PM
In my opinion, all the light colors (Lime Gold, Burnt Amber, Brittany Blue) look poor in the original faded paint and spectacular in fresh modern paint.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: shelby101 on March 15, 2020, 11:29:22 PM
Brett,

I need the paint code/formula for Burnt Amber...Do you have it or does anybody else on the forum?
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: JD on March 16, 2020, 12:22:08 AM
I need the paint code/formula for Burnt Amber...Do you have it or does anybody else on the forum?

See link, and image of the link page, might help...

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?type=sample&paint=10425&ditzler=22749&syear=1967&smanuf=Ford&smake=Ford&smodel=Mustang&sname=Burnt Amber&name=1967_00079_01&scomm=&rows=50

Also, original color on a '67 Shelby under the upper scoop, the adjacent body color is a repaint in the wrong shade.

Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: shelby101 on March 16, 2020, 10:55:56 PM
Thank you JD!!!
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: rcgt350 on May 07, 2020, 12:00:04 AM
Has a picture of 0051’s “supposed “ hand engraved Vin tag ever surfaced, showed up at all?
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Shelby_r_b on May 07, 2020, 12:06:51 AM
Has a picture of 0051’s “supposed “ hand engraved Vin tag ever surfaced, showed up at all?

I think you forgot to attach the picture. 😬
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Richstang on June 20, 2020, 05:30:39 PM
Based on some further research,
I believe the hand stamped Shelby VIN tags were attached on the base units upon arrival at LAX and not when the cars were completed.
These appear to be added up until about the 3rd week of October regardless of the VIN number/sequence and SA completion date.
(The date adjustment is based on current data gathered. More info [VIN photos] will help further refine the approximate date)

The photos of these hand engraved VIN plate show an 11 digit VIN with the hyphen before the sequence number.
This changes to a 13 digit VIN with #0090 according to an internal SAI memo

As previously mentioned, it is still possible several cars had the hand etched tags replaced with stamped versions.

Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: 2112 on June 20, 2020, 06:34:27 PM
Anybody know why, If they were die stamping in '65 & '66, they went with hand engraving for the early '67's?
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Bob Gaines on June 20, 2020, 07:55:16 PM
Anybody know why, If they were die stamping in '65 & '66, they went with hand engraving for the early '67's?
My guess is that there was a problem with tooling (lost,stolen ,damaged?) and that they had to identify the cars somehow in the mean time so the hand etched was a simple fast solution  The hand etched plates sufficed until proper stamps were available. At least that is the most plausible explanation I can think of given the evidence. Who knows how many hand etched were done and then later replaced by SA. We know that the proper stamped replacement vin plates that were not used have come up for sale before which indicates what was supposed to happen. I think it was the #51 car that had its genuine metal stamped plate come up for sale on a ebay auction. The owner of the car had the hand etched plate which had never been replaced.  We only know of the ones that were missed (still hand etched) and didn't get replaced. It would be cool to have both. ;)
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: BGlover67 on June 20, 2020, 09:21:10 PM
Anybody know why, If they were die stamping in '65 & '66, they went with hand engraving for the early '67's?
My guess is that there was a problem with tooling (lost,stolen ,damaged?) and that they had to identify the cars somehow in the mean time so the hand etched was a simple fast solution  The hand etched plates sufficed until proper stamps were available. At least that is the most plausible explanation I can think of given the evidence. Who knows how many hand etched were done and then later replaced by SA. We know that the proper stamped replacement vin plates that were not used have come up for sale before which indicates what was supposed to happen. I think it was the #51 car that had its genuine metal stamped plate come up for sale on an ebay auction.   The owner of the car had the hand etched plate which had never been replaced.  We only know of the ones that were missed (still hand etched) and didn't get replaced. It would be cool to have both. ;)

Yes, it was.  I secured it so it wouldn't get cloned by another NC resident from Burnsville.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: FL SAAC on June 20, 2020, 09:39:49 PM
Visit the 1967 Shelby Research Group website, it is truly phenomenal
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: shelby101 on June 26, 2020, 11:46:47 PM
Does anyone know the original delivery destination of each of the hand etched vin cars?  My car #78 was delivered to the east coast and I believe #75 the same.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: JD on June 27, 2020, 09:34:41 AM
Dave Mathews may know.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Richstang on June 27, 2020, 04:55:35 PM
The 2011 registry 1967 Shelby section does list where each car was shipped to and sold at.
The exception might be the company cars. They would have been sold later as used vehicles, but we do know a little bit about them as well.

We don’t know every car that initially received the hand etched VIN tags. Of the ones we do know of, the location does not appear to be relevant to the hand etched tag.

The first DSO group of 100 regular production cars (GT350s, with manual transmission, with Magstar rims, and AM radio equipped cars) were essentially completed and shipped to every FRANCHISED dealer to prepare for the introduction of the ‘67 Shelby model on November 10, 1966.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Coralsnake on June 27, 2020, 06:12:16 PM
Can you describe the questions surrounding these hand etched plates?
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Richstang on June 28, 2020, 09:01:15 PM
Can you describe the questions surrounding these hand etched plates?

I would think the lingering questions about hand etched VIN plates would be;

-How many cars actually received these plates?
-Why did SAI use the hand etched VIN plate in the first place? (Broken stamp machine?)
-When did SAI stop using them and begin using the stamped versions?
-Which if any cars had the hand etched VIN plate replaced by a stamped version?
-Is there any SAI documentation that discusses the hand etched VIN plate topic?

Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Coralsnake on June 29, 2020, 08:41:45 AM
Thanks Rich.

I font have any concrete information, but Im guessing its very simiar to the 68 dual serial number saga. There was a “revision of standard operating procedure ” and some were swapped out while another group remained as built.

Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: JD on June 29, 2020, 09:15:12 AM
There was a “revision of standard operating procedure ”and some were swapped out while another group remained as built.

I too have thought that since the change from how the '65 and '66 cars VIN plates were stamped to the '67's were done (adding more digits that tell how the car was built/features) and seems there was some paper work (?) that implies they hadn't fully figured out what body styles and the larger engine [they weren't sure what to call the GT 500 was not the first/only considered name] were really going to be offered for the running year and options (like when they started adding an interior color code to the VIN's going from 12 digits to 13 digits within the first 100 cars) after they started stamping the VIN's had something to do with the few early cars completed in October of '66 having the hand-engraved VIN's - "...we need to get something on these and get them out the door we'll fix it later..." and later took longer than intended?

Don't mis-understand it's just a thought - not saying that's what happened.

Also I think these plates were engraved not etched:
Chemical Etching Vs Traditional Engraving. ... there is one major difference between the two: etching is a chemical process while engraving is a physical process. The former uses an acid solution (etching agent) to etch lines into a surface, often leaving behind intricate and detailed designs
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Bob Gaines on June 29, 2020, 03:51:12 PM
There was a “revision of standard operating procedure ”and some were swapped out while another group remained as built.

I too have thought that since the change from how the '65 and '66 cars VIN plates were stamped to the '67's were done (adding more digits that tell how the car was built/features) and seems there was some paper work (?) that implies they hadn't fully figured out what body styles and the larger engine [they weren't sure what to call the GT 500 was not the first/only considered name] were really going to be offered for the running year and options (like when they started adding an interior color code to the VIN's going from 12 digits to 13 digits within the first 100 cars) after they started stamping the VIN's had something to do with the few early cars completed in October of '66 having the hand-engraved VIN's - "...we need to get something on these and get them out the door we'll fix it later..." and later took longer than intended?

Don't mis-understand it's just a thought - not saying that's what happened.

Also I think these plates were engraved not etched:
Chemical Etching Vs Traditional Engraving. ... there is one major difference between the two: etching is a chemical process while engraving is a physical process. The former uses an acid solution (etching agent) to etch lines into a surface, often leaving behind intricate and detailed designs
Yes I agree hand engraved is a better way to describe the tags. As to Coralsnake post
There was a “revision of standard operating procedure ”and some were swapped out while another group remained as built.
In this case the hand engraved vin plates had the exact same information in the same format as the metal stamped vin plates. It was also in the same order. See pictures.  As I mentioned previously in reply #36 that 67 Shelby #51's metal stamped vin tag surfaced on ebay even though the hand engraved vin tag has always been attached to the #51 car. The fact that a genuine metal stamped vin tag exists (yes you can tell) and not installed suggest that SA meant to change them out. Dave Mathews has told me of other loose metal stamped vin tags not matched up to the cars to the cars that they were intended for. This is why I suspect the simplest of explanations which would be that it was a case of a problem in stamping the plates for what ever reason that involved. Possibly the crude way the plates were engraved was a undesirable or unprofessional look and SA was trying to switch them out. Another possible reason may have to do with the way the DMV expected them to look which mandated a attempt to comply.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Henry G on June 29, 2020, 09:05:06 PM
Kinda off topic but seeing 0078’s tag brings a lot of memories...I really miss that car...

Henry G//

Former owner of 0078 for almost 28 years...
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Coralsnake on June 29, 2020, 09:32:55 PM
A similar situation in 1968, the dual serial numbered plates were installed and shipped. Later it was determined a single number plate would be the standard. Many dual numbered plates were retrieved from dealers, but not all. Im sure there were some single numbered plates, that never made it to dealerships. Unlike 1967, I dont think they have ever turned up.
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Bob Gaines on June 29, 2020, 10:02:14 PM
A similar situation in 1968, the dual serial numbered plates were installed and shipped. Later it was determined a single number plate would be the standard. Many dual numbered plates were retrieved from dealers, but not all. Im sure there were some single numbered plates, that never made it to dealerships. Unlike 1967, I dont think they have ever turned up.
The same thing only different.  ;D ;)  68 was a 2 lines format changed out for a single line format. In 67 the format was exactly the same . The information was exactly the same yet It was still changed out.The only difference was one was hand engraved and the other metal stamped. 
Title: Re: Hand etched VIN plates
Post by: Coralsnake on June 30, 2020, 07:10:40 AM
Exactly, thanks