I have been into Mustangs for ever, and have owned over 40 of them and owned a Mustang restomod parts business, so am pretty well educated on those. But, never owned a Shelby until now.
I traded a mediocre 65 Corvette convertible for #3210 Shelby KR convertible. I understand the car was rebodied at some point. For my purposes, the rebody does not matter to me. And I could not afford, nor do I want, a concours car. The Vette was only worth about $40k, and I had been looking at Shelby clones for $50k. So, I figure, worst case, I have a real nice clone for a real decent price.
The car has an incorrect CJ from a 69, and an AOD tranny. Body and looks and interior are pretty nice. Of course, it has mostly aftermarket parts from Branda, I suppose. Registry says it was found in an abandoned junkyard in Dallas. I figure if it was in a junkyard, it must have been hit hard, and all the Shelby parts probably disappeared in the first two weeks. And for it to have been left behind when the yard was abandoned... well, I can imagine what was left.
Someone did a fair job reassembling the car with aftermarket parts so it looks legit to those who are not experts.
I am fine with the car and just want to make it a nice driver. If I ever did sell it, it would be explained as to what it is.
My question is this. Does anyone here know anything about this car? I don't know if it was junked in 1969 or at a later date. Or any info at all? I plan to restore it to make sure everything works as it is supposed to (something the previous assembler did not aspire to) and make it look right. Someone put a ton of money into it, so I think I am OK moneywise with it. Just would like to see if there is any actual knowledge of the history of the car.
Not to be a smart ass ,but if it's a rebody(and all the Shelby parts were taken off the original body) and it has a replacement engine and tranny,what is original Shelby?The vin plate?(which could be a crime......)
Welcome to the forum!
Do you have a copy of the last 68-70 Shelby Registry? That would have all the public knowledge of the car. And, you could contact the 68 Shelby Registrar (Vinny Liska). He'd be happy to help. 👍🏻
I havent seen any evidence 3210 was destroyed, however, I know a little about the car. It came out of Oklahoma. It appeared on eBay as a bare chassis within the last few years. I dont think I would use the term "rebody" to describe the car. Total fabrication is better. All of the tags are reproductions, the body is not original. Sorry to tell you that, but you asked.
There is nothing "Shelby" about the car.
Its going to be quite an interesting day if the real 3210 ever shows up.
Welcome to the forum!
Ouch! Pete is this the car I think it is?
Is the car actually registered under that Shelby vin? Because.......
For whatever it's worth, the previous registry noted 're-body'.
I would think the tags would have to be original to meet the definition of "rebody" , not the case here.
So I would respond, more information is available since the last registry.
Quote from: Coralsnake on January 10, 2020, 09:45:56 AM
I would think the tags would have to be original to meet the definition of "rebody" , not the case here.
So I would respond more information is available since the last registry.
The Registrar generally only knows what is reported to them. In a few cases they actually have seen the car itself and will tell you on the spot what they have determined.
The Cobra Registrar is the one who coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that has been created out of air, thin air in many cases.
That term probably applies here best if it is true that there were no original tags OR Ford stampings or ID on it?
As far as having the original car show up in some sort of documented form in the future, it doesn't always solve anything necessarily.
A few things could happen. There could be a civil law suite initiated over which was the "legitimate" car entitled to wear the Shelby id or more likely, the local State would impound the car and issue a new serial number to it, essentially destroying what little value it would have left.
In any case the 68 Registry has already acknowledged that they were informed it is a rebody.
As the current owner states, he doesn't care. The Registry hasn't been accepted anywhere as a legal document and probably would get challenged in court by the opposing party anyway.
One of its initial purposes was to help prevent unknowledgeable buyers from buying a bill of goods but often the adage that you can't cheat an honest man proves itself time and again.
Ask Ned about Cobras with the same number and how and if it has been litigated?
Lots of times one of the contesting parties scoffs at the legitimacy of the Registry itself. For them it's just a big heavy book and apparently they already have a book and don't want another?
Agreed Doug, the Registry is reported information.
The new owner was certainly informed on some aspects of the car.
He just shouldn't represent it as a "Shelby" in my humble opinion. Not even a rebody.
I will check my information to see if I have more...
Quote from: Coralsnake on January 10, 2020, 11:21:45 AM
Agreed Doug, the Registry is reported information.
The new owner was certainly informed on some aspects of the car.
He just shouldn't represent it as a "Shelby" in my humble opinion. Not even a rebody.
I will check my information to see if I have more...
It probably shows as a Ford on the state registration already.
I figured the car was mostly just a clone. It does have the dash vin tag showing the Shelby's original Ford serial number that matches the Ford part of the full Shelby vin. Like stated, I know it is not much of an original car, but suits my needs as something interesting to drive that is one step up from a T code clone. After seeing full cloned cars with T code titles going for over $100k lately, I am hoping it will at least have the same value as a clone built car. Like stated, my Vette was worth about $40k.
At local shows, it allows people to at least see what a Shelby looks like, since it is very rare to see a concours example show up.
I do appreciate any and all comments, pro or con. Hopefully nothing criminal was done by the car builder. I was fully informed about the rebody thing when I got it. Is there really a concern the damaged original body could reappear?
Quote from: TXLakester on January 10, 2020, 09:49:20 PM
Is there really a concern the damaged original body could reappear?
Most definitely. If the real unibody/car still exists out there and someone has legitimate claim of ownership, things could get very messy from a legal perspective.
Quote from: 557 on January 10, 2020, 09:39:57 AM
Is the car actually registered under that Shelby vin? Because.......
What exactly is this post inferring?
If it's not a Shelby then it should be registered with the VIN under the "Shelby" tag if there is one.
The reason being,....that's the donor body which started out life ,....and is still extant .
Quote from: TXLakester on January 10, 2020, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: 557 on January 10, 2020, 09:39:57 AM
Is the car actually registered under that Shelby vin? Because.......
What exactly is this post inferring?
. If it is registered under the Shelby vin ,and is not that Shelby,likely a federal crime has occurred.The car in that case is registered with a vin that doesn't belong on THAT car.Kinda like switching license plates from one car to another...(and if you have ever watched COPS you know how that goes LOL)
Charles is 100% correct. You have very real legal jeopardy.
It doesnt matter what its registered or titled as. Clearly the intent was to recreate the identity of 3210. From the photos I have, I feel comfortable saying its not 3210 and no part of it, including the tags, are original. Its not the first fake from Shawnee, OK either.
I dont have a perfectly clear photo of the dash tag, but the picture I do have of it appears to indicate its also a fake. The door tag is a fake, the painter didnt even take time to mask it properly. I guess they call that patina? The numbers on the fender aprons have been poorly stamped.
Clearly a crime has been committed in my opinion. You cant restore something that you dont have. You can debate if changing tags to a different body is legal or moral. Thats not what happened here. Its all fabrication. If you show me one original tag, I will retract that statement.
If 3210 does show up in any form, you will have a mess. Possibly a legal one. The reality is most of these crimes go unchecked. You are going to have even a bigger mess when it comes time to sell it.
I dont say these things lightly. This is a hot potato.
I can only surmise the Shelby VIN tag is also fake.
Reproduction tags are fine, until someone abuses them like this. Unfortunately they are very prevelant
Quote from: TXLakester on January 10, 2020, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: 557 on January 10, 2020, 09:39:57 AM
Is the car actually registered under that Shelby vin? Because.......
What exactly is this post inferring?
People like Coralsnake, Doug and Biggie are giving you sound advice here. There are documented instances where legal authorities have come and confiscated misrepresented cars and destroyed them. Just ask the Cobra Registrar, big money values tend to bring out big fraud perpetrators. In that case, you would lose your entire investment in the car at best because it is considered a fraud. And, as mentioned, if you were trying to sell the car, then you could be set up for huge legal problems and possible jail time. Can I ask, why represent it as 3210 at all? As mentioned, title the car as the Ford Vin currently stamped on the apron sheetmetal, if any of the original donor car are still present. Have someone help you locate the hidden stamped apron VIN's Then have a removable 'fantasy' Shelby VIN plate made up for car shows and events. Have it stamped as car. no. 4455. (FYI, the last car titled in 1968 was no. 4450)
I live in North Carolina and have dealt with registering a few 1967's here in the state. The authorities are very much looking for anything abnormal. Here, registering a car that is from another state necessitates a physical inspection by the DMV officers. If they even think that the VIN plates have been removed, they get mighty concerned. I had a dickens of a time registering two (soon to be three) early 1967 cars here. They just couldn't accept an 11 digit VIN as being legitimate. '67s, as anyone on here will attest to, are the oddest year ever produced. There are literally cars that have 11, 12 and 13 digit long VIN numbers. Crazy! It took intervention by the '67 registrar (Thanks Dave!) to make it happen.
There is nothing wrong with a clone, and with the current cost of KR convertibles, no one would begrudge you for owning one. But misrepresenting it as something else goes against what this whole hobby is about. Using the excuse "At local shows, it allows people to at least see what a Shelby looks like, since it is very rare to see a concours example show up." won't hold much water when the DMV officers show up after the guy you sold the car to reports it to the authorities. :(
In this case, the "donor" chassis had all the VINs removed (thats probably also a violation) and the serial number of 3210 added to the new aprons.
The only numbers on this car belong to 3210, including the "hidden" VINs. They are so poorly stamped that there is little doubt they are not originals. They were clearly shown in the eBay auction, so there is no ambiguity. The car was originally being represented as original, but only after the auction started the seller admitted it was not the original chassis in private emails to a friend.
Im not going to discuss the details further, because of previous experiences. I can tell you now which forum members would be compelled to share the tells. Lets just say its very obvious
There is no easy solution here for extraction. This is a prime example of why should ask before you buy. I have said it many times, know the history and never buy a "restored" chassis without any original parts. Thats a huge red flag. I understand thats not what the current owner did here, but that was the origin of this fiasco. He could have avoided all this by asking first.
Looks like a pretty car, enjoy!
On your Shelby title, is the manufacturer and car info listed as Ford or Shelby? Is the car listed as a Mustang or a GT500? Just trying to figure out if some other shenanigans occurred when the car was titled in Oklahoma and the transferred to TX.
Again, thanks to everyone for the enlightenment on this car. I have no idea what course to take other than to just enjoy the car and never sell it. Wondering if I should approach the one who sold it to me with demand to take it back. He is not the original seller of the car either. I think he bought it at a Mechum auction.
This has been discussed on our forum numerous times. How its titled Shelby or Ford is not important. Its entirely up to the titling authority what they want to call it when the car is registered.
As far as never selling the car, eventually someone will have to... are you leaving them with the problem?
Not making light of your situation, but could there be more sheenanigans?
I will let you up for air now, we cant eat newbies anymore.
Does this VIN tag from the dash look legit? I have obscured the consecutive number for posting purposes, but the number does match the title and the title has 03210 at the end of this tag number.
From what I can tell the car had complete big block shock towers/inner fenders installed, eliminating any hard VIN stamps.
Hey, I don't mind any criticism of comments. I am just trying to figure out what to do. The fact is, someone sold this car to ME and I now own it. Just trying to keep myself out of legal issues. It seems I have stepped in something and can't get it off my shoes.
Maybe revise my will. Destroy car upon my death after canceling insurance ...
Wondering if my legal recourse involves s lawyer and contacting seller about the issue.
Quote from: TXLakester on January 13, 2020, 03:29:33 PM
Does this VIN tag from the dash look legit? I have obscured the consecutive number for posting purposes, but the number does match the title and the title has 03210 at the end of this tag number.
From what I can tell the car had complete big block shock towers/inner fenders installed, eliminating any hard VIN stamps.
Hey, I don't mind any criticism of comments. I am just trying to figure out what to do. The fact is, someone sold this car to ME and I now own it. Just trying to keep myself out of legal issues. It seems I have stepped in something and can't get it off my shoes.
Maybe revise my will. Destroy car upon my death after canceling insurance ...
Wondering if my legal recourse involves s lawyer and contacting seller about the issue.
For clarification does that mean you are saying it has "wrap around shock towers" or not ? I hope you know the difference. Also are you saying it has new front and rear aprons on both sides with no VIN stamping ? FYI the window tag looks
genuine reproduction from all I can see.
Yes, it has wraparound big block shock towers. No numbers under the fender edge right or left side or under the Shelby VIN tag on the left inner fender. Only that dash tag is on the car and a reproduction Shelby apron tag and door tag. I am assuming the big block shock towers and inner fenders were installed using preassembled aftermarket parts like the ones on CJPony for $2,500 per side.
I know there are a lot of opinions on the forum. That is the nature.
Please let me share my experience with you. I have been involved with 1968 Shelbys since the 1980s. I only research 1968s. I have been SAAC National head judge, I have law enforcement experience, I have a file of over 1500 cars, all are 1968 Shelbys. Most files contain pictures of tags. I study these tags very closely. Most pictures don't have an agenda. The ones that do, are recognizable.
I am not saying that to brag, but to reinforce my points.
It is my opinion the tag you posted is a reproduction. There are several people that make these tags. The door tag on your car is also fake. These numbers are all openly available to any criminal.
If you give me any Shelby number 1-4450, I can provide you with all the numbers needed to restamp a complete set of tags.
There is nothing on this car that is original from what I have seen. Not the tags or the body.
Here are some pictures of the car from the eBay auction
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-130120175656.jpeg)
Maybe you can see the thieves "production line" in the background? This was a case known to many in the Shelby circles.
Yes it has big block shock towers. That proves nothing. The donor chassis is not an AC car and has no Shelby specific holes in these photos. The car had vin numbers stamped on these front aprons at the time of the auction. Are you saying there is no number under the Shelby VIN tag on the left hand side of the car under the hood?
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-130120175722.jpeg)
Reproduction door tag "before"
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-130120175815.jpeg)
Same reproduction tag after paint job
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-130120175746.jpeg)
This car was likely picked out of the Shelby World Registry because it did not have an owner history past 1969. That certainly does not mean the car was destroyed. Only cars that are reported to the club have history. Many cars are still around and are never reported to the club.
Let me say this also, I am not going to discuss what makes these tags reproductions, but there is little doubt in my mind and no I don't want to be involved in your lawsuit. These are just my opinions.
But, like I said before I flagged this car a long time ago. The thieves should know these things are being watched very closely and not to try this with a 1968 Shelby.
Sorry to be the bearer of such news
i am just a little bystander here but have owned many Mustangs, muscle cars, old trucks etc since 1977.....
bottom line for the owner here....
CORALSNAKE is an expert on 1968 Shelbys as he just told you....and is well known
the VIN number and this discussion is now public on the internet so the story is known to all.....
my 2 cent advise is to call the guy up you traded with and get your Vette back............if you say you will never sell ( doubt it there comes a time to let go of everything) then whomever is left holding this car will go down in flames.....you don't want to do that to a friend or relative do you?
Thank you for the support.
However, the numbers were all public before this thread.
I do understand your point, its much more known now. The information regarding the car is all in the Shelby American Registry.
These were responses to direct questions.
Really the only thing that could possibly be done is to remove all the VINs related to 3210 and have the car retitled under a state issued number.
The problem there is this would likely put the car in jeopardy because removing or tampering with VINs is a violation of federal law. This would have to be done under the supervision of a sworn law enforcement officer, possibly the FBI.
Then they are going to want to know why the VINs are "bad" and the car could be subject to confiscation.
I guess you could remove all the VINs and rebuild the car without any VINs and then ask for a reconstructed, state issued title? I don't have any experience in that area and there would certainly be a lot of questions. Theoretically if a Mustang came out of a junk yard without a front clip or doors I would think it could be rebuilt and issued a state issue title with a new state ID number.
A good investigator should be able to trace the car back to the Shawnee, OK criminals.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 13, 2020, 03:43:47 PM
Quote from: TXLakester on January 13, 2020, 03:29:33 PM
Does this VIN tag from the dash look legit? I have obscured the consecutive number for posting purposes, but the number does match the title and the title has 03210 at the end of this tag number.
From what I can tell the car had complete big block shock towers/inner fenders installed, eliminating any hard VIN stamps.
Hey, I don't mind any criticism of comments. I am just trying to figure out what to do. The fact is, someone sold this car to ME and I now own it. Just trying to keep myself out of legal issues. It seems I have stepped in something and can't get it off my shoes.
Maybe revise my will. Destroy car upon my death after canceling insurance ...
Wondering if my legal recourse involves s lawyer and contacting seller about the issue.
For clarification does that mean you are saying it has "wrap around shock towers" or not ? I hope you know the difference. Also are you saying it has new front and rear aprons on both sides with no VIN stamping ? FYI the window tag looks genuine from all I can see.
After further examination on the tag comparing it to others I have on hand along with ones shared by respected others I have to reverse my conclusion on the window tag as genuine. The picture tag is a cleverly patina ed repro. I am amending my previous post.
Bob, thanks for your input. Shot down my last ray of hope, but I would rather have the truth. I really do appreciate all the input received here. I just wish I had not trusted the seller's explanation of a rebody. I was ok with a rebody, but it appears the truth is, there was no car to rebody. It was just built from scratch. There are no stamped VINS anywhere. The fender, door and dash tags are fakes. The pictures posted from ebay match the car. Uneven door and quarter gaps match, as do the cracks in the door latch screw holes.
Again, I am ok with the car itself considering what I paid for it, but the possibility of having purchased something illegal that could come back on me is unacceptable. I just wish I had not trusted what I was told. In reality, I am not sure the seller knew all the details. Since it was not trying to be passed off as an all original car, I was not too concerned. But the VIN issues as a totally faked car are a whole 'nother story.
Quote from: TXLakester on January 13, 2020, 08:28:10 PM
....Again, I am ok with the car itself considering what I paid for it, but the possibility of having purchased something illegal that could come back on me is unacceptable. I just wish I had not trusted what I was told. In reality, I am not sure the seller knew all the details. Since it was not trying to be passed off as an all original car, I was not too concerned. But the VIN issues as a totally faked car are a whole 'nother story.
At least your experience can serve as a lesson for others. Unfortunately sometimes it takes someone "touching a hot stove" serve as that example for others to take notice. Sure we will be linking back to this thread in the future when similar questions and possible similar situations arise. :(
I am saddened you have to go through this as well. I hope you can work it out
Don't we have a few good lawyers on this site? Deathsled? Sounds like you need proper representation, and to get your Vette back. This shouldn't be your problem, you didn't fake it.
If anyone knows of a good lawyer who has experience in this kind of thing, I am open to contact.
Wrap around big block shock towers metal pieces have been repoed long ago so u don't have to buy another big block donor car to get them BUT what many people don't know is there are differences in the metal wraps between 68 and 69 and 70 if you know what to look for and I don't think all 3 versions have been made. If these Shawnee OK people involved with this car are the ones I am thinking of someone involved in this had a sad ending.
The dealer that sold the car at the Mechum auction was from OKlahoma. I bought it from the guy that bought it at the auction. Care to elaborate on the sad outcome? I am now very curious of all the tainted history of this car. I guess I am the new poster child.
I have been dealing with Mustangs since early 80's. Just have never come across a dishonest Mustanger before. I guess this is just a different game at a different level.
Quote from: TXLakester on January 13, 2020, 11:03:18 PM
The dealer that sold the car at the Mechum auction was from OKlahoma. I bought it from the guy that bought it at the auction. Care to elaborate on the sad outcome? I am now very curious of all the tainted history of this car. I guess I am the new poster child.
I have been dealing with Mustangs since early 80's. Just have never come across a dishonest Mustanger before. I guess this is just a different game at a different level.
Big $$$ = Big Fraud :'(
Someone in this story died. Suicide I think? Forgive me its been a few years...
Quote from: TXLakester on January 13, 2020, 11:03:18 PM
The dealer that sold the car at the Mechum auction was from OKlahoma. I bought it from the guy that bought it at the auction. Care to elaborate on the sad outcome? I am now very curious of all the tainted history of this car. I guess I am the new poster child.
I have been dealing with Mustangs since early 80's. Just have never come across a dishonest Mustanger before. I guess this is just a different game at a different level.
would this be your car that sold at Mecum in 2011?.....sold as a replica.....different stripes........
https://www.mecum.com/lots/IA0711-112617/1968-shelby-gt500-kr-replica/
No different car.
I think after the OK legal troubles this car was altered. That may be why the current owner says it has no apron numbers. It was a step in the right direction, apparently they didnt destroy the fake tags and continued the charade
Quote from: TXLakester on January 13, 2020, 11:03:18 PM
The dealer that sold the car at the Mechum auction was from OKlahoma. I bought it from the guy that bought it at the auction. Care to elaborate on the sad outcome? I am now very curious of all the tainted history of this car. I guess I am the new poster child.
I have been dealing with Mustangs since early 80's. Just have never come across a dishonest Mustanger before. I guess this is just a different game at a different level.
I'm not sure that you have a case? You need to consult with the local DA.
Examination of the car, except for the missing Ford apron stampings don't necessarily indicate a smoking gun as far as a rebody.
Previous pictures of the car (from the Ebay auction) would need to be proven that they are this car and you are going to need a bunch of "expert witnesses" to testify as to why they think it is a rebody.
Expert witnesses charge fees and "they ain't cheap".
Just looking at the Waranty tag and windshield tags as they appear now with their added patina don't necessarily give it away as non-originial.
I don't disagree with Coralsnake but he can't prove anything in court. It's just his opinion and that's just there to rattle the defense, make them fold and make you a settlement offer.
I think that your best course of action is to approach Mecuum as having sold a fraudulent car. You always go after "deep pockets" first.
You could also approach the previous owner and suggest that he is a co-conspirator to them.
This car is going to be difficult to show documented history to. Oklahoma DMV might want to know but if they have no records of it ever have been registered or titled there then it is completely under the radar.
You need to know what you want to happen. Do you want to reverse the trade for your Corvette? Do you want monetary damages? That will decide the best course of action to take.
This likely is going to be too small of a case for an attorney to take the case. If it was a GT40 or a Daytonna Coupe, that's a different story but they are going to want 50% and that already means you are out 1/2 of what you have in it.
Even if you find the shop who did the work and they admit it their share of the damages is likely to be just what they put into it. Value of the item needs to be established.
You can't get $1,000, for a damaged suit from a dry cleaner if the suit is only worth $100.
You can't get $1,000 an hour for your time to correct what a painter charged you $25 an hour for, etc., etc..
This entire thing is a mess and could take years and lots of legal fees to work out. That's not in the car. Pressure the seller and Mecuum. You WILL hear from Mecuum's attorney for sure. They do have liability insurance and they may make you an offer?
Here is a link from a local news source: https://www.reddirtreport.com/red-dirt-news/attorney-commits-suicide-amidst-lawsuits-criminal-investigation
The relevant excerpt:
QuoteThe search warrant records show Kermit Milburn was the subject of an investigation that involved cloning classic Ford Mustangs using vehicle identification numbers and car parts.
According to the search warrant, there were Shelby Mustangs that bore VIN's listed to other owners and to Kermit Milburn. The search warrant shows a VIN to 1968 Shelby Mustang valued at $250,000 to one owner; but the same VIN was also found registered to Saubren, LLC, a company owned by Kermit Milburn.
Leonard Compton formerly did restoration work for Milburn. His ex-wife, Patti Sharp provided a statement to investigators regarding what she witnessed.
How many are there and which one is this?
I guess he shot himself at "the Safety First Range" because it was safer there? :o
I dont think Mecum can be held responsible for something they may sold 10 years ago? Who knows where its been since? Or whats been done to it? Best you can do is work backwards one sale at a time. Original investigators might have interest.
Apparently "clone" is worse than "rebody"? This is why that whole area should be discouraged.
I believe there were at least a dozen, several were Shelbys.
Interesting timing on the post of this article:
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/happens-classic-car-inspections-don-145942590.html
Ebay seller
Mark Crook
email: c8w4spd@yahoo.com
The real 3210 has appeared...
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-270120072549.jpeg)
https://www.news9.com/story/41612864/pottawatomie-county-auctions-off-classic-mustangs
+ 1 correct
Quote from: shelbydoug on January 14, 2020, 10:06:59 AM
Quote from: TXLakester on January 13, 2020, 11:03:18 PM
I'm not sure that you have a case? You need to consult with the local DA.
Examination of the car, except for the missing Ford apron stampings don't necessarily indicate a smoking gun as far as a rebody.
Previous pictures of the car (from the Ebay auction) would need to be proven that they are this car and you are going to need a bunch of "expert witnesses" to testify as to why they think it is a rebody.
Expert witnesses charge fees and "they ain't cheap".
Just looking at the Waranty tag and windshield tags as they appear now with their added patina don't necessarily give it away as non-originial.
I don't disagree with Coralsnake but he can't prove anything in court. It's just his opinion and that's just there to rattle the defense, make them fold and make you a settlement offer.
I think that your best course of action is to approach Mecuum as having sold a fraudulent car. You always go after "deep pockets" first.
You could also approach the previous owner and suggest that he is a co-conspirator to them.
This car is going to be difficult to show documented history to. Oklahoma DMV might want to know but if they have no records of it ever have been registered or titled there then it is completely under the radar.
You need to know what you want to happen. Do you want to reverse the trade for your Corvette? Do you want monetary damages? That will decide the best course of action to take.
This likely is going to be too small of a case for an attorney to take the case. If it was a GT40 or a Daytonna Coupe, that's a different story but they are going to want 50% and that already means you are out 1/2 of what you have in it.
Even if you find the shop who did the work and they admit it their share of the damages is likely to be just what they put into it. Value of the item needs to be established.
You can't get $1,000, for a damaged suit from a dry cleaner if the suit is only worth $100.
You can't get $1,000 an hour for your time to correct what a painter charged you $25 an hour for, etc., etc..
This entire thing is a mess and could take years and lots of legal fees to work out. That's not in the car. Pressure the seller and Mecuum. You WILL hear from Mecuum's attorney for sure. They do have liability insurance and they may make you an offer?
Cloning your own cars is about as stupid as stupid gets.
Was a lawyer and committed suicide on a gun range.
Yikes -
- Phillip
Unless you paid Shelby prices just enjoy the car and call it a clone, recreation, or whatever the new "term" for what a Shelbyish look a like car is these days. If you paid Shelby prices, then you have a problem and truthfully the legal system is not much help unless it is a $1M + car but the bottom feeder attorneys will gladly take your money and make the financial condition worse.
IMO...Talk to the person you bought it from and try to realign the pricing and see if you can come to an agreement (I doubt that will happen but you never know), if not, lick your wounds and call it an expensive education.
Would like to see the "new" titles.
Eating $60k isnt my idea of education.
Fraud is never acceptable
Just think now the new owner of the OK car can get a free lawsuit with his winning bid.
Death by natural cause
Quote from: propayne on January 27, 2020, 09:18:05 AM
Was a lawyer and committed suicide on a gun range.
Yikes -
- Phillip
Was it stated somewhere that 3210 was one of his original cars that is being auctioned? Or just another 3210 clone they built? I did not see numbers anywhere?
I am into this car for under $50k. I knew it was not the original body when I bought it, but was shown info from the Shelby registry where the car was supposedly found in a Dallas junk yard and thn was rebodied. That is where I fell for the story.
I am perfectly happy with the car itself considering what I have in it. I know it is not a thoroughbred Shelby with original parts.
But I do not like the idea of a totally fraudulent title. I have considering asking the DMV to issue a new VIN and title without the 3210 on it, but my concern is they may want to just confiscate the car. They can call it a Kia for all I care. I just want to be able to enjoy the car without fear of loss, or to cause my grandson to get in trouble should he inherit it from me.
I would rest easier if I knew the current status of "real 3210".
I dont believe the VINs are listed, but if they were faking real cars and they have a red KR convertible that would seem to be the logical deduction.
I would think a call to the Potawatomie, OK District Attorney, Allan Grubb or county sheriff will answer that question.
I believe there were some other cars not shown on the news.
Thinking about this, i doubt that the county sheriff released your car if they knew the numbers were fake. It almost looks like additional fraud may have occurred after the events in Shawnee. Might be the place to start.
Ask them what became of the "clones" ?
Thats their terminology, not mine
Sorry guys, I'm just now reading these posts.
#3210 was reportedly found in a junkyard in Earlsboro, Oklahoma. In 2006, the thieves filed for lost title in Oklahoma using one of their lady friend's name. In 2010, this woman's signature was forged by the perps on a bill of sale and the title. The title was then transferred to guess who? One of the perps. It was then sold to a local business man in Shawnee, OK. He is deceased. His kids sold the KR in the Leake Kruse auction. In 2016 when the clones were seized, #3210 was not brought in.
Almost all of the original cars and their owners have been found concerning the Shawnee, OK clones, except #3210 & #4302. The clone to #4302 was in an auction last year in France.
However, the DA, Allen Grubb, has recently auctioned 2 of the cloned Shelby's, both 1970 GT500 convertibles. He re-titled the vehicles using a state assigned VIN but neglected to take the stolen VIN's off the inner apron fenders. He advertised these cars with their respective Marti reports also showing the stolen VIN's. The auction item description never revealed the cars as clones. The County Sheriff spent 3 hours in court attempting to get an injunction to stop Grubb's auction. The injunction was denied. An Oklahoma highway patrol trooper performed an inspection and submitted a report for all "visible" VIN's on these cars. That's why the injunction was denied. The judge just didn't understand it. I think the trooper missed a few "visible" VIN's because the auction showed pictures of cloned 68KR engine bays with the Shelby automotive plates still attached.
There is another auction scheduled in June for the remaining clones. All of the perps are now deceased. Wherever they are today, I'm sure they are "laughing out loud". The DA is selling these stolen/cloned cars just as they intended. He's a very $ hungry attorney. These cars were never Shelby's, not even rebodied Shelby's.
I'm sorry. This has greatly embarrassed me.
For what it is worth, I inquired about that vehicle several years ago and was completely put off when I received photos of the VIN's. It was very obvious it was fake and they were trying to sell a stolen/misrepresented vehicle.
I contacted the state police there and forwarded them the information. Unfortunately I never heard back, nor did I bother to contact them back.
A little bit about myself, I have been in Law Enforcement for over 30 years and held every rank from patrolman (yes, that is what we were called back then, it's not PC now) to Detective, to Chief of Police. With that said, everything Coralsnake, shelbydoug and BGlover67 have stated is true. It looks like the real one has shown up, hence just the possession of the vehicle is a crime, though not likely to be prosecuted with the facts you stated. But you will have it seized at some point unless you are pro active and start the process to get a new VIN, which your current state can help you with. Hopefully you can find another Ford VIN stamped somewhere and use that. That would probably be the cleanest way to get this resolved.
I was fortunate when I finally did buy my 2 Shelby's and contacted Vinny about their history (thanks Vinny).
I wish you well my friend, and hope you get in front of this before it bites you.
Live and learn.
3210 now has another owner. I sold it with full disclosure of everything I have learned here.
Thanks to everyone for the education.
It is now someone else's problem. Luckily I was able to get back a bit more than I had in it.
^^^ Wow. what a mess. But... Glad to hear that it [more or less?] ended well for you.
Not sure if it means anything or not, but the driver of the rig that picked it up was Russian.
Glad to hear that!
Now we need to get you into a real Shelby!
The honest truth is I did not want a concours Shelby because my nature is to modify the heck out of everything. That is why I was OK swapping my 65 Vette for the "rebodied" Shelby. The non original body meant I could do whatever I wanted. The misunderstanding on my part was that it was a Shelby that the owner had to replace major body parts due to damage. Turns out, that was not the case. It was a fraudulent car.
I have owned a modified 66 GT fastback since 1992. It has a Dart aluminum 427 stroker and TKO600 with Cobra disc brakes, power R&P, power brakes, power locks and windows. The car was centerfold in Mustang Monthly back in 2006. I also have a restomod 56 F100.. I think I can be happier just learning to enjoy the stuff I already own. It was a lifelong dream to own a KR. Now I can check that box off the list. Sort of...