Anybody have some photos and info on how the electric fuel pump is mounted and plumbed in the R model? I'm also looking for a source for a rebuild kit for the 240A.
Rebuild kits were being sold on fleabag
Quote from: mlplunkett on January 30, 2020, 11:38:43 PM
Anybody have some photos and info on how the electric fuel pump is mounted and plumbed in the R model? I'm also looking for a source for a rebuild kit for the 240A.
Drew Serb of the Cobra Experience is a well known rebuilder and parts supplier of those . I assume he still does them. If you have one now and If you put power to the pump and it doesn't do the thump thump thump noise or if it only makes one thump that means the internal switch is bad. It is easier and less expensive to buy one that already makes the pumping sound and re seal and re gasket that one that the switch still works in. The switch has been obsolete for decades know and when you find them NOS they are expensive. There are people who have been successful rebuilding them (not me) but again expensive. I have been buying ,selling ,using and rebuilding them off and on for a number of years now and that is what I have found to be the case . Hopefully others have had better luck then I.
I have seem them mounted to the bracket for the trunk hinge on the driver's side.
I'm also looking for detailed photos / drawings of a Stewart Warner 240-A fuel pump installation in a R-Model. Would also like to find a Stewart Warner 240-A installation and parts drawing if available, as a friend gave me a pump to use in my car.
Thank you.
Don
gt350bp
Here is one.
Quote from: gt350hr on January 31, 2020, 10:26:07 AM
I have seem them mounted to the bracket for the trunk hinge on the driver's side.
Randy,
That would be the more common single SW240A unit mounting arrangement. It had issues being up so high. I have SAI photos somewhere of the single plumbing arrangement and the passages where it enters the underside and connects to the long range fuel tank fuel pickup. The point of entry for the dual is similar.
The previous image above that Bob G. posted is the dual SW240A mounting from 5R098. I took dimensions of that bracket years ago and installed it in my 65. Here it is:
Quote from: mlplunkett on January 30, 2020, 11:38:43 PM
Anybody have some photos and info on how the electric fuel pump is mounted and plumbed in the R model? I'm also looking for a source for a rebuild kit for the 240A.
Mickey,
I so happen to have a full set of the re-Build kit from SW. What is it you need?
~Earl J
Quote from: gt350bp on February 01, 2020, 12:45:46 PM
I'm also looking for detailed photos / drawings of a Stewart Warner 240-A fuel pump installation in a R-Model. Would also like to find a Stewart Warner 240-A installation and parts drawing if available, as a friend gave me a pump to use in my car.
Thank you.
Don
gt350bp
Don,
I have the SW service instructions...I found them. (some may be duplicates)
~E
More.
~E
last set. I took out the dupes.
~E
The switch...a lot of time the pins can get crud build-up and cause it not to work.
~E
SFM5S000, thank you for the Service Instructions. That is exactly what I was looking for! This is very helpful, now all I have to figure out is how to print them, as when I try to fit them to a page, I lose all print quality and they are not readable?
First a *huge* thank you to SFM5S000 for those detailed docs. I am very grateful for your efforts. Just one lurkers opinion.
To gt350bp - I expanded the images (one at a time) copied and pasted them into a directory - renaming them SWpump1.jpg thru 11. By printing them as full page pictures, I get around a 5x7 service instruction that is readable and can probably expand that if necessary.
j
Will give that a try. Awesome information and thanks again.
Don
gt350bp
Wow, what a treasure trove of info. I found nothing online for parts kit searches but am waiting for reply from "Sam" at Cobra Performance so I'll pass on whatever I find out. I have 4 pumps that I haven't disassembled yet so I don't know what parts I need but I figured there was a standard set of parts that you always replace once you go to the trouble to tear down an old pump.
So what's the story on single vs double pump application? Did the single pump on the trunk lid bracket have priming problems? Was the double pump setup a race track modification? I notice two different plumbing arrangements in the examples. Bob's photo shows the pumps plumbed in series (outflow from pump #1 goes to inflow for pump #2) while the fittings for the other photo looks like it's set up for parallel plumbing (inflow from tank is split going to both pumps and outflow from both pumps comes together on it's way to the motor). Seems like both would work fine but is one more original than the other?
Earl,
Yes I have seen the "dual" installation as well , just like Bob's photo. "Most" were plumbed "in series" from SAI. The drag race Mustangs hung them on a bracket under the car just forward of the tank by the pick up in the tank.
Randy
Quote from: mlplunkett on February 03, 2020, 10:20:32 AM
I notice two different plumbing arrangements in the examples. Bob's photo shows the pumps plumbed in series (outflow from pump #1 goes to inflow for pump #2) while the fittings for the other photo looks like it's set up for parallel plumbing (inflow from tank is split going to both pumps and outflow from both pumps comes together on it's way to the motor). Seems like both would work fine ..........................
Well, I feel the "proper" installation for function is to have them in parallel, as each unit has independent access to the reservoir and is adding to the total sum of delivery; versus a series installation with the singular draw sum effecting from only the first unit, which is the weak side of the system, with the potential gain solely being the perhaps drop in discharge pressure of this first unit due to the attempted draw of the second, and increase of the inlet pressure of the second, which one would anticipate an overall increase in delivery, but not at all equivalent to the parallel installation. ;)
Also, consider the effects in the event of failure of one unit? ???
And as being opinionated, I would comment that in the photo of the parallel installation plumbing, in that the choice of the "T"s as somewhat lacking, as particularly on the low-pressure side the combination of the fuel turning 90 degrees into the first pump, over the machined fittings' short-turn creating a shear and the separation of the volume to the second pump unit simultaneously may induce a pressure drop, thereby an increase in the potential of a cavitation event, this definitely effecting delivery performance negatively. Now, this may be offset by utilizing plumbing of excessive dimension, but this just compounds in inefficiency of the design. ;)
Scott.
Cobra Performance has the rubber top hat and the rebuild kit but no replacement wires or switches.
https://www.csxparts.com/c-223-fuel-pump.aspx
The nice thing about a SW 240 A is that if used in conjunction with a mechanical pump on the engine , fuel will flow through it if it is in the off position. Running them in series is more of an "endurance" thing , if one fails the other will still provide fuel especially without a mechanical pump up front. Volume was not critical on a road racer back "then".
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on February 03, 2020, 03:21:39 PM
The nice thing about a SW 240 A is that if used in conjunction with a mechanical pump on the engine , fuel will flow through it if it is in the off position.
Randy
Yes, we have successfully operated a sum of fuel delivery with the pumps in the "OFF" position just drafting fuel thru them with the mechanical pump for around town, and turning them "ON" when driving more aggressively. When using the manual switch versus a pressure switch, just don't forget! Don't ask me how I know! ::)
But I have never actually measured when plumbed in series, what the fuel deliver loss would be, as attempting to draft thru or blow thru a dead pump? Just seems like a bad engineering to me! :)
Also, as alluded to previously, mounting of fluid pumps high in relation to the fluid level being accessed is of poor intention, for several reasons, but most importantly it's the fact that as I stated previously, the suction side of the system is the weakest, and most prone to ailment when good practice is not adhered to, and the idea of expecting the pump to be lifting the fluid out of the tank enroute to the pump is to be avoided as much as is possible. ;)
Scott.
In a 427 Cobra you can tootle around town with the electric pump off and just run on the mechanical pump, but if you push it, the suction tears the diaphragm out of the electriic pump.
rkm , never had that problem in 46 years of drag racing with a 240A , but street driving is different.
Quote from: rkm on February 04, 2020, 06:36:02 AM
In a 427 Cobra you can tootle around town with the electric pump off and just run on the mechanical pump, but if you push it, the suction tears the diaphragm out of the electriic pump.
Use a Holley. It has no diaphram AND you can hear the radio when it's running as opposed to what sounds like a diesel generator in the trunk with the SW.
It was said that the drivers in the factory race Cobras would shut the pumps off. The Webered engines would run with no pressure regulator. Just plumbed directly to the little distribution block from the mechanical pump.
I use a Holley in the trunk to prime the carbs at start up and leave it at 3 psi. The mechanical pumps are more then adequate even under race conditions. That is unless you are Randy and regularly do wheel stands launching the car and need to overcome the severe g-forces generated by that?
That picture of the R model with the dual pumps is one of the Essex wire cars. The pumps weren't run in tandum. One was a backup for the other incase one failed. You normally can shut both of them off even under race conditions as the factory drivers did back in the day with seemingly no ill effects.
Make no mistake the SW 240 A was pretty much state of the art more then 55 years ago but not that today in comparison to modern offerings. The SW 240 A is more for nostalgia then any advantage over its modern counterpart.
+1 I am a nostalgia guy that pits "old" against "modern" and if "modern" doesn't provide a lower ET , I use "old" My car actually ran the same when the 240A was taken out of the system altogether. Must be the Carter Nascar mechanical pump doing it's job. 122 mph at the end of the 1/4 and 8,000 rpm does require "some" fuel to do. LOL
Randy
I used a carter pump on my T/A Boss clone. I have a 240A in the trunk but is a gutted dummy pump just there to make it look correct. I did not like how small the inlet and outlet fittings were so I used -8 fittings and just looped it inside the pump housing.
Quote from: gt350hr on February 04, 2020, 05:55:11 PM
+1 I am a nostalgia guy that pits "old" against "modern" and if "modern" doesn't provide a lower ET , I use "old" My car actually ran the same when the 240A was taken out of the system altogether. Must be the Carter Nascar mechanical pump doing it's job. 122 mph at the end of the 1/4 and 8,000 rpm does require "some" fuel to do. LOL
Randy
Dang that is spinning it. You are da man!!!! ;D
Regarding gasket kits...the Ebay seller is a very good source. I understand he's temporarily out of kits, but will eventually resume sales of them.
I've bought 20+ sets from him during the past 5 years. Early on when I asked him if each of the gaskets in his kit were compatible with today's gas/ethanol blends, he checked and found several were not. He then remedied the issue and for years his gasket set has and still contains ethanol compatible pieces. His kit includes a new black power wire.
I don't use vintage NOS gaskets for the reason stated above.
What Ebay seller are you referring to?
BTW on the series vs parallel pump plumbing debate I came across this photo on a GT40 site.
Quote from: SFM5S000 on February 01, 2020, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on January 31, 2020, 10:26:07 AM
I have seem them mounted to the bracket for the trunk hinge on the driver's side.
Randy,
That would be the more common single SW240A unit mounting arrangement. It had issues being up so high. I have SAI photos somewhere of the single plumbing arrangement and the passages where it enters the underside and connects to the long range fuel tank fuel pickup. The point of entry for the dual is similar.
The previous image above that Bob G. posted is the dual SW240A mounting from 5R098. I took dimensions of that bracket years ago and installed it in my 65. Here it is:
Earl,
Can you share the dimensions of that bracket?
The Ebay seller's name is margeracsalva.
Quote from: mlplunkett on February 06, 2020, 02:44:51 PM
BTW on the series vs parallel pump plumbing debate I came across this photo on a GT40 site.
Yes, this is a popular plumbing execution, it is simple, neat and clean, perhaps, maybe even "period" correct, but it is still not an efficient or proper execution, but then it may be "sufficient", and that's all that counts. Right! ;)
And, I see that we are using the the appropriate tool for such a plumbing endeavor considering the hardware store brass, the "ever-adjustable-left-handed-metric-standard-universal" Crescent wench! But, I suppose it's a step up from the "monkey-wrench" anyway!
BTW,........... did you know that the flats within the jaws of the Crescent wrench are not intended to be parallel by design? Or, that it is intended to be directional in its' position relative to the direction of the rotational force applied. Oops, sorry, I'm rambling again! ::)
Scott.
Bob,
Do you consider the 2-pump setup in the photo you provided to be "correct" for an R model or was this something that was done different for different car owners? Does the setup in the photo use the same 2-pump bracket that is shown in the other post? It almost looks like each pump had it's own bracket in your photo but it's too dark to be sure.
A nice gentleman from the GT40s forum provided some higher resolution versions of several SW Service Instructions. Enjoy.
Here's more
Quote from: mlplunkett on February 07, 2020, 02:38:07 PM
Bob,
Do you consider the 2-pump setup in the photo you provided to be "correct" for an R model or was this something that was done different for different car owners? Does the setup in the photo use the same 2-pump bracket that is shown in the other post? It almost looks like each pump had it's own bracket in your photo but it's too dark to be sure.
One bracket held the both pumps. Not two . The bracket was apparently sold by SA back in the day. I have found and sold several of the same brackets over the years. If I found several there must have been many more. I know it is one of the more common set ups I have seen in R models over the years.
For those who have run the Stewart Warner 240 fuel pump, I was wondering if the single mounted pump on the decklid hinge bracket worked very well since it was mounted so high? I have seen several R-Models and clones with set up but was wanting to make sure it worked before installing it on my tribute car.
I was also curious if the mechanical pump was able to pull through the dual electric pumps when the electric pumps are off?
Thanks.
In the late '60s I used the hinge area for mounting. I was then warned it was too high and lowered it. "At the track" it didn't make any performance difference.
YES the mechanical pump will pull through them and was why I used them.
The SW Service Instructions indicate that the 240 A pump be mounted no more than 24" above the fuel level.
Don
gt350bp
I have an original Friedman photo of the 240A pump installation on 002, I will post it when I get to my computer. The installation shows one 240A pump mounted close to the rear axle on the drivers side with the LR wheel removed.
The typical installation was using the Carter mechanical fuel pump drawing through the 240A, the 240A being utilized only when the fuel level in the tank was low causing weaker gravitational forces to slow down fuel supply to the mechanical pump. This was also the way it was utilized on the "long range" fuel tanks on the team 289 Cobras, plumbed into the reserve side of the fuel tank. If the fuel pressure got low enough to switch to the reserve side the 240A pump was activated long enough to build normal pressure on the gauge and then the 240A was shut off. Basically the 240A was used as a booster pump for the mechanical pump when needed.
This is one of the photos for the upcoming auction of the Ken Miles prototype car. This may be the only car that's mounted in this fashion since it's the prototype. The battery hold down also seems to be different than what's marketed as correct for the R model.
Also found a copy of the switch servicing document developed by Randy V on the GT40s forum. The photos were lost for several years due to the Photobucket money grab but someone recently produced a copy that they downloaded back in the day. It's good info if you want to try and revive a faulty switch.
Here is the photo of 002 as I promised......
Quote from: CSX2259 on March 13, 2020, 04:37:52 PM
Here is the photo of 002 as I promised......
That is the nicest painted black rear brake drum I think I have ever seen.
I've had an electric fuel pump in my trunk since 1972. It hangs off of the deck lid hinge mounting bracket. It works fine there.
That technically is less the 24 inches to the bottom of the tank.
Tt works so well, in fact, it really sucks.
Why put one under the car? It will be exposed to all types of road hazards?
If need be, put a pump on the end of the pick up tubes in the tank like the new cars use.
This seems like a no brainer to me unless you are intentionally making it more complicated then necessary? I know people like that.
Quote from: CSX2259 on March 13, 2020, 04:37:52 PM
Here is the photo of 002 as I promised......
This would be a more correct for proper function installation versus any in the trunk endeavor; and safer for the car and the occupants from a fire hazard also! ;)
And before someone says "bah-humbug", please Randy (jump in! :) ) mention the NHRA rules concerning the requirement of no fuel lines or related fuel components (this includes direct operating mechanical fuel pressure gauges) in the occupant compartment and the requirement of a bulkhead (not just the rear seat assembly) separating occupants from trunk mounted fuel system components. ;)
Scott.
Quote from: pbf777 on March 13, 2020, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: CSX2259 on March 13, 2020, 04:37:52 PM
Here is the photo of 002 as I promised......
This would be a more correct for proper function installation versus any in the trunk endeavor; and safer for the car and the occupants from a fire hazard also! ;)
And before someone says "bah-humbug", please Randy (jump in! :) ) mention the NHRA rules concerning the requirement of no fuel lines or related fuel components (this includes direct operating mechanical fuel pressure gauges) in the occupant compartment and the requirement of a bulkhead (not just the rear seat assembly) separating occupants from trunk mounted fuel system components. ;)
Scott.
From a historical stand point and to be fair didn't the rules changed after the 60's time period we are talking about ?
Yes Bob IIRC it was 74-75 when the rules were changed by NHRA.
Randy
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 13, 2020, 09:14:54 PM
From a historical stand point and to be fair didn't the rules changed after the 60's time period we are talking about ?
Definitely, but I was attempting only to point out a "more correct for proper function installation" and safety, and agreed, perhaps not a more typical period correct installation.
But, perhaps, if I had the out of the example of car #002 as presented (if "period correct" if that still being of a steadfast concern) and my car didn't originally ("day-one") come equipped with such anyway, then perhaps, particularly if I was adding such from need for truly greater fuel delivery than that which solely the mechanical pump was able (say for track day events), then perhaps this alternate installation with its' superior attributes in function & safety could be considered? :)
Scott.
I was wondering if anyone knows whether the bowl, bowl retainer, top plate, and mounting bracket were stainless on the 240a fuel pump or were they zinc plated?
Quote from: R-MODEL1965 on June 30, 2020, 06:56:35 PM
I was wondering if anyone knows whether the bowl, bowl retainer, top plate, and mounting bracket were stainless on the 240a fuel pump or were they zinc plated?
Not stainless steel. Those parts are zinc plated steel.
I see the SW240A complete gasket kit is available again on Ebay.
David
Quote from: Bob Gaines on June 30, 2020, 07:55:03 PM
Quote from: R-MODEL1965 on June 30, 2020, 06:56:35 PM
I was wondering if anyone knows whether the bowl, bowl retainer, top plate, and mounting bracket were stainless on the 240a fuel pump or were they zinc plated?
Not stainless steel. Those parts are zinc plated steel.
+1 and poorly done at that! VERY thin coating that virtually rubs off.
Randy
Quote from: dmb496 on September 21, 2020, 09:32:26 AM
I see the SW240A complete gasket kit is available again on Ebay.
David
A lot of people are under the misconception that the gasket set is what is needed to rebuild a non working pump. The gasket kit is very helpful but it doesn't typically solve the problem of a non working pump. There is a internal switch that goes bad that renders the pump inoperable. That is at the root of the vast majority of non working 240A pumps. The switch unfortunately is not readily available. I have had a few NOS internal switch's over the years but they are like hens teeth in finding them.
Nice looking pump available right now for a goof price. I didn't find the gasket set.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stewart-Warner-Electric-FUEL-Pump-SW-240-A-12volt-Cobra-Shelby-GT40-1965-RARE/224167746181?hash=item3431705a85:g:mC4AAOSwkbRfa38U
Does anyone know how many Gallons per hour (GPH) the 240a pumper? Thanks
They were pretty poor like 80. I tried to fill a 55 gallon drum once and it took forever. A Rotary pump is WAY faster!!!
Quote from: gt350hr on October 22, 2020, 05:47:29 PM
They were pretty poor like 80.
If that's G.P.H.? I think your being awfully kind there Randy; or is that with the 18 volt battery system? :)
I think they were probably rated more likely around 50 to 55 G.P.H. (and I'm not sure whether that was "free-flow" (probably :-\ ) or at pressure, and if so at what pressure, as it was an adjustable pressure unit?); and this equates to something in excess of 300 lbs. per hour of fuel, which at the old stand-by value of one half pound fuel per hour per horsepower would indicate the pump was tapped-out at anything approaching 600 H.P. or more; and this would have been in the best of installations I'm sure.
As I remember (in the "old-days" ::) ), in the real world, the practice was that one pump was sufficient perhaps to 400 H.P. +/- applications but after that you went with a dual pump installation, again, in reasonable executions of installations, which still would prove to compromise the claimed performance obviously available under only "ideal" conditions. :)
Scott.
They were optimum at the time but obsolete compared to today's technology. Their use should be for nostalgia purposes only IMO.
I still run one in conjunction with a Carter Nascar pump up front. The unique thing about a 240A pump is that fuel will flow through it with the pump "off". I have run with it on and off and without it in the system at all. It makes about a +1 MPH difference when on so I keep it , using it in high gear when fuel demand is critical. That's one good thing about drag racing , it tells you via the time slip if your modifications help or hurt.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on October 23, 2020, 10:45:19 AM
I have run with it on and off and without it in the system at all. It makes about a +1 MPH difference when on so I keep it , using it in high gear when fuel demand is critical. That's one good thing about drag racing , it tells you via the time slip if your modifications help or hurt.
Randy
I think that means your using 110% of your fuel delivery capacity without it, and I'm sure you know, that could prove to be one of the bad things about drag racing,.......when your told you hurt something! :'(
And yeah, they're old technology, but they have proven do work reliably (if you have a good one) and if applied in a reasonable application and with a proper execution of installation they can provide that which may be required, and still impart the nostalgic presentation one might desire. 8)
Scott.
One thing you don't find on my car is "bells and whistles". Vintage and stealth is how I roll. 240A fits my image LOL. If I don't lift the hood , everyone thinks I have an LS , LMAO.