SAAC Forum

The Cars => 1966 Shelby GT350/GT350H => Topic started by: deathsled on February 12, 2020, 08:27:53 PM

Title: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 12, 2020, 08:27:53 PM
Intellectual curiosity drives the question.  Also, gold stripes or no gold stripes?
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: FL SAAC on February 12, 2020, 10:57:18 PM
Well I can honestly say that we do not have a red Herzt
Thank you
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 12, 2020, 10:58:41 PM
There weren't many to begin with and I suspect a few got wrecked along the way.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on February 14, 2020, 05:16:06 PM
I had one - originally no stripes. I figure it's already in your survey.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 14, 2020, 09:14:41 PM
Yes good ol' 843. Love that car!
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: Mike G. on February 15, 2020, 06:58:45 AM
I do not own one but there is ne here on Long Island. Mike G.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 15, 2020, 10:54:17 AM
They are around.  I've not seen many.  The one you saw, does it have stripes over the top or not.  I get into approach-avoidance conflicts on occasion whether I should have put the stripes on or not.  Mine came without stripes ever.  Oh well, the next owner can decide when the car gets parted out from my estate.  You know it will.  Happens all the time...One's own interests are not necessarily the interests of the next generation.  That's why we have archaeological digs for vanished cities and civilizations.  Things get forgotten and buried with the passage of time.  Sad but true.

Best,

Richard E.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 15, 2020, 11:29:49 AM
Wide angle shot of big red...taken August 2018 during a foggy morning.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: Doug C on February 15, 2020, 01:11:30 PM
I have #988 in S.CA and it started out as Red no stripes.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 15, 2020, 08:39:50 PM
Mine came out of Covina California.  It seems that the red is mostly a west coast color.  I can stand to be corrected if anyone out there has a different take.  I could also check my registry.  All the pages are still intact so I handle it with kid gloves.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on February 16, 2020, 02:46:53 PM
Red 66s that were at last LASAAC show at SA in Gardena 2019. 834 - non Hertz and factory stripes & 84? - Hertz no mention of stripes in registry. 846 and 843 were both delivered to LAX Hertz from HiPerf Motors on the same day. I've always wondered if the LAX Hertz cars actually went to HiPerf to be delivered or were just driven around the corner from 6501 Imperial.
I have heard that none of the red Hs got LeMans stripes from the factory. Howard could probably clear that up. They do however look correct with the stripes and certainly stop all the questions of why didn't you put the stripes back on when you repainted? Your explanations of it never had them would certainly be called BS by 99% of the automotive world.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 16, 2020, 04:41:10 PM
Yes, 843 looks right with the stripes.  Owner added option.  Whosoever gets 843 after me can remove at their leisure if they like.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: CSX4781 on February 16, 2020, 04:56:40 PM
Red 66s that were at last LASAAC show at SA in Gardena 2019. 834 - non Hertz and factory stripes & 846 - Hertz no mention of stripes in registry. 846 and 843 were both delivered to LAX Hertz from HiPerf Motors on the same day. I've always wondered if the LAX Hertz cars actually went to HiPerf to be delivered or were just driven around the corner from 6501 Imperial.
I have heard that none of the red Hs got LeMans stripes from the factory. Howard could probably clear that up. They do however look correct with the stripes and certainly stop all the questions of why didn't you put the stripes back on when you repainted? Your explanations of it never had them would certainly be called BS by 99% of the automotive world.

Sent you a PM, got a question about 846.

Thanks,
Dave
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: PR on February 16, 2020, 08:42:04 PM
There was one I seen in a garage in Santa Rosa ca, red, gold stripes auto, he said it was a hertz car, very original, but engine had issues that's why it was parked and why this guy got the car
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: olaf427 on February 16, 2020, 09:52:17 PM
I have one believe its 973 but I would need to double-check the number. Mine was bought out of Kentucky years ago but was very original with one repaint. It doesn't have stripes now but did come with them originally. Im in Va
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 16, 2020, 10:52:58 PM
Pleased to meet you gentlemen.  Here's a red Hertz I found online set up for racing...
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: gt350cs on February 17, 2020, 03:26:25 PM
Richard,

In response to your question of how many red Hertz delivered to California there were 4 delivered to Los Angeles and 7 to San Diego and none to San Francisco. Total of 11 all together for the red Hertz California cars. If anyone has original plates for any 1965 - 1970 Shelby cars I would appreciate the information, I am still continuing to add to data base.

Dennis
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 17, 2020, 06:24:05 PM
Hi Dennis,

Thanks for the research. I would have thought more red ones went to California. I have an original Cal plate to 843 that the prior owner graciously provided. I keep the plate indoors on a wall. A special artifact that is part of the car.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: 66 Hertz on February 17, 2020, 06:46:13 PM
For a complete telling of the ’66 Hertz story, I would urge anyone interested to read the appropriate chapter in the 2011 ’65-‘66’67 Registry. But I can offer a definitive explanation of just the red cars here. One must remember that despite the fact that Shelby American pitched the program to Hertz as 1000 black and gold cars, when Hertz finally awarded a contract to Shelby in December of 1965, it was for 1000 cars equally divided in all five of the colors in which the ’66 GT350-black, red, white, blue and green. By then, Hertz had already changed their minds several times as to the color mix and the transmission types. Even after the contract had been finalized, Hertz continued, almost on a weekly basis, to change the requirements, and these changes have all been captured in Shelby American’s Staff Meeting Minutes.

Another factor must be understood to being the red cars question into focus was the means by which San Jose shipped cars to Shelby American for conversion into GT350s: they would run a batch of one color, ship Shelby’s allotment of that color, run another color, ship Shelby’s allotment of THAT color…and so on. The result was that Shelby received cars for GT350 conversion (for both Hertz and non-Hertz) in batches of like-colored cars. What happened in the case of the red Hertz cars was that two unrelated events occurred simultaneously: first, Hertz again flip-flopped on the subject of top stripes (please don’t call them “LeMans stripes”, Shelby American referred to them as “rally stripes” back in the day) and requested that rally stripes NOT be applied. Then, very shortly thereafter, Shelby American received a batch of red cars and began converting them into GT350Hs. Just as the red group as completed, guess what? Hertz again changed their mind and decided that all cars thereafter would have rally stripes. Thus, factory paperwork proves pretty conclusively that NONE of the red GT350Hs had top stripes. Hertz didn’t make a conscious decision to have their red cars lacking top stripes; it just turned out that way. Sometime afterwards, Hertz again flip-flopped and decided that the remainder of their fleet would be black with gold stripes, so the 50 or so red GT350Hs without top stripes were the only ones there would ever be.

I hope this clarifies this subject for the 99% percent…

Greg
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: Doug C on February 17, 2020, 08:09:37 PM
For a complete telling of the ’66 Hertz story, I would urge anyone interested to read the appropriate chapter in the 2011 ’65-‘66’67 Registry. But I can offer a definitive explanation of just the red cars here. One must remember that despite the fact that Shelby American pitched the program to Hertz as 1000 black and gold cars, when Hertz finally awarded a contract to Shelby in December of 1965, it was for 1000 cars equally divided in all five of the colors in which the ’66 GT350-black, red, white, blue and green. By then, Hertz had already changed their minds several times as to the color mix and the transmission types. Even after the contract had been finalized, Hertz continued, almost on a weekly basis, to change the requirements, and these changes have all been captured in Shelby American’s Staff Meeting Minutes.


Thanks for the update and glad that you have refreshed the story about the Red Hertz.  BTW I have #988 which was born without stripes.  Cheers,

Another factor must be understood to being the red cars question into focus was the means by which San Jose shipped cars to Shelby American for conversion into GT350s: they would run a batch of one color, ship Shelby’s allotment of that color, run another color, ship Shelby’s allotment of THAT color…and so on. The result was that Shelby received cars for GT350 conversion (for both Hertz and non-Hertz) in batches of like-colored cars. What happened in the case of the red Hertz cars was that two unrelated events occurred simultaneously: first, Hertz again flip-flopped on the subject of top stripes (please don’t call them “LeMans stripes”, Shelby American referred to them as “rally stripes” back in the day) and requested that rally stripes NOT be applied. Then, very shortly thereafter, Shelby American received a batch of red cars and began converting them into GT350Hs. Just as the red group as completed, guess what? Hertz again changed their mind and decided that all cars thereafter would have rally stripes. Thus, factory paperwork proves pretty conclusively that NONE of the red GT350Hs had top stripes. Hertz didn’t make a conscious decision to have their red cars lacking top stripes; it just turned out that way. Sometime afterwards, Hertz again flip-flopped and decided that the remainder of their fleet would be black with gold stripes, so the 50 or so red GT350Hs without top stripes were the only ones there would ever be.

I hope this clarifies this subject for the 99% percent…

Greg
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: 427heaven on February 17, 2020, 08:25:18 PM
Hi Dennis,

Thanks for the research. I would have thought more red ones went to California. I have an original Cal plate to 843 that the prior owner graciously provided. I keep the plate indoors on a wall. A special artifact that is part of the car.
   SLED... Did the plate start out with TQK  I had an early SHELBY # 409 still have its California plates.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 17, 2020, 10:23:44 PM
Here is the plate that 843 wore back in the day.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 17, 2020, 10:25:17 PM
And thank you for your helpful insights, Greg.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: gt350cs on February 18, 2020, 10:35:20 AM
Richard/Dennis

I have plate numbers recorded for 6S409 as well as 6S843. Still looking for others.

Greg,

Can you confirm that were there 50 each of the blue, green and white Hertz cars and 850 Black? Also did the 50 white cars include the ones that came with blue stripes?

Thanks,

Dennis
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: 66 Hertz on February 18, 2020, 12:31:09 PM
Hi Dennis,
Short answer: no.

More detailed answer: although it wouldn't seem so, an exact total of most of the colors is, for the time being, impossible. That's because where the color of a certain batch of cars changes into the next-colored batch, often we don't know exactly where the changeover occurred (by serial number). So there are some cars where we don't know whether they belong to one color group or the other. Each of the red, green batches, for example, didn't number exactly 50 cars, either. I think the number was closer to 54-ish or so for the red ones, 57-ish for the green ones. The white cars total closer to 65-ish because, as you ask, there was the early batch of white cars (some with blue stripes) and then a (close to) 50 car batch later on. This is just one of those areas where we historians will hafta learn that we can't have exact answers! At least until more paperwork turns up.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: gt350cs on February 18, 2020, 02:16:18 PM
Greg,

Thanks for the quick response. At least I know that there is more to be determined regarding the numbers. The numbers that I have come up with are as follows and I know they are off because some are simply guesses on my part and I highlighted them yellow in my database as being questionable: white/blue - 20, white/gold - 56, blue/gold - 56, green/gold - 59, and red/gold - 63.

Thanks again, I really appreciate all that you do on our behalf in documenting this information and sharing your expertise.

Dennis






Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 18, 2020, 02:19:26 PM
Imagine what it felt like going to the airport and seeing one of those in the stall knowing it was yours for the weekend. I was 3 years old at the time. I can only use my imagination.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: Greggt350 on February 18, 2020, 02:39:29 PM
Interesting thread with lots of insights.  I have a red Hertz - SFM6S846.  I bought it in CA when I was stationed in Monterey back in the early 80s. When I left CA I drove it to IN while I attended a school, then drove to VA where we are now.  No evidence of top stripes, but I had a friend paint them on in the mid-90s.  I like the way it looks with the stripes.   
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on February 20, 2020, 12:30:22 PM
I went through the registry and counted 60 Red Hertz, there may be more but some cars are marked "unknown" on color. The earliest VIN is a Red 4 speed(552) all the rest are listed as Automatics, the last VIN is 1015. I heard that a large number of cars left without stripes and a $25 credit was given. Don't know if Howard or Greg K may have some records of the credit on the invoices, or if the delivering dealer painted them or if they were added later on. I've seem more Red Hertz than any other optional color (about 15 red cars over the past 40+ years). Only seen perhaps 2 or 3 Blue gold and about 10+ of the other colors (white and green)
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: gt350cs on February 20, 2020, 02:31:11 PM
Steve,

I show 6S552 as black and 6S522 as the red 4 speed. Can you verify this?

Thanks,

Dennis
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on February 20, 2020, 02:58:13 PM
Could be my dyslexia working overtime that day 🤪
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 20, 2020, 03:21:57 PM
Is a red Hertz Registry in the offing? How about a red Hertz four speed registry. It would consist of a one paragraph book in hard cover. Naw. Kidding.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: 66 Hertz on February 21, 2020, 10:39:25 AM
Steve McD (perhaps unwittingly) highlights the difficulty in determining the top stripes issue as it pertains to the Hertz cars: cost. The contract between SAI and Hertz called for top stripes to be added at no cost (as a side note, it is interesting that Hertz actually got a better deal on the cars than did Shelby's own dealers, who had to pay for top stripes) so on the cars where Hertz specified no stripes, there was no reason to give any sort of credit...the stripes were free anyway. There is no way SAI was going to refund the cost of something they essentially had to give away for free! Since the stripes were a 'no cost' item, they didn't show up on the Hertz car invoices...that's why we are forced into using the Staff Meeting Minutes to address the issue of stripe application. The Minutes address the issue of striping/no striping during a block of time, which is a bit less desirable than if the invoices noted stripes, which would address the issue on a car-by-car basis. As for factory documentation on this topic, we gotta work with what we have.

I believe that one reader commented that 522 was a red, four-speed car...a look at the Hertz car listing in the Registry clearly identifies the car as black. NONE of the original four-speed cars were other than black.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 21, 2020, 10:45:22 AM
Damn! There goes my red Hertz four speed registry.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on February 21, 2020, 03:38:46 PM
Steve,

I show 6S552 as black and 6S522 as the red 4 speed. Can you verify this?

Thanks,

Dennis

Looked up car 6S522 through the 1976 1965-1966 GT350 Registry,1987 Registry, 2011 Registry and the 2019 Registry and found a conflict on the color in the 2011 registry it states" "original color not documented but a prior believed it to be red." In the 2019 Registry it states " "original color not documented but believed to be black." Looked back in the "1965-1966 GT350 Registry from June 1976 and no colors are noted  and the 1987 Registry says "The original color is unconfirmed, but thought to be blue." All of the registries from 1987 on show this car to be a 4 speed.

its now possible that 6S522 was not actually Red as the first confirmed Red car I can find in the registry is 6S613 and does not seem logical that they would have painted one car Red in a batch of Black cars and the first Red Hertz car is VIN 6S829 has several Red cars around that VIN (Red non Hertz cars)

6S552 shows in all registries as "color unconfirmed but believe to be black" all registries show this car to be a 4 speed

This is an interesting subject as there seems to be some many variations, but there does appear that cars were produced in similar batches , a run of Black 4 speeds, a run of Blue automatics, a run of Red cars, etc. I really wish that they would have kept much better records but the great thing about SAAC is that we have a lot of information that is shared to help get a clearer picture of what was going on in that 5 year run of Shelby American in that time period 1962-67. What a great piece of automotive history
As for the stripes vs. no stripes, I defer to the experts as my information is based on conversations with a guy who worked at Hertz's faculty at DC's National Airport in 1966. he also identified my car as being rented at National Airport by having a interior rear view mirror painted "red". He had an explanation that this was to identify the airport it came from, DC National, Friendship (Baltimore) or Dulles
 So much more to learn
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on February 21, 2020, 10:07:52 PM
Imagine what it felt like going to the airport and seeing one of those in the stall knowing it was yours for the weekend. I was 3 years old at the time. I can only use my imagination.
I was 16 and my dad was traveling for work. Every time we took him to LAX I begged him to rent me a Hertz GT350 for the weekend. He kept reminding me they wouldn't let me drive it. I only remember seeing a black & gold parked out front. They probably kept the arrest me red ones in the back.

PS - I'm working on a spread sheet of the Hertz cars from the 2011 registry.
Title: Re: How many on this site have a red Hertz?
Post by: deathsled on February 21, 2020, 10:16:15 PM
That's a fine memory to have. We never got them in Canada. Even the 69 Boss 302 was virtually impossible to get North of the US when they were new for 1969. It would be interesting to see your documented spreadsheet. No small task to compile.