I am interested in finding information. About the production use of the 427 engine in 1967 1968 Mustang production. I would like to know how many Mustangs were created with the 427 during that time.
Heck of a first question.
And asked on a Shelby site :)
I miss the popcorn thingamajig
How does ZERO sound? There were no 67-8 Mustangs, only a few 68 Cougars with the W code 427s. There are no Mustangs according to Kevin Marti for either year, despite it being shown as an option.
The mistery of the W Code, if somebody will find one that will maybe a million dollar baby ;-) maybe somewhere in mexico its sitting and waiting for bj or mecum ;D kevin marti will verify it ::)
Quote from: Kent on March 22, 2020, 05:28:36 AM
The mistery of the W Code, if somebody will find one that will maybe a million dollar baby ;-) maybe somewhere in mexico its sitting and waiting for bj or mecum ;D kevin marti will verify it ::)
Marti has said that there are no 68 W code Mustangs in the Ford records. Only Cougars.
I don't remember what he said about '67s but there are only three 67 GT500's and those were all done after the fact by Shelby.
One is the Supersnake and it is a million dollar car several times over.
If you want a 67 427 then you are limited to R code Fairlanes or a 427 Cobra.
Here's everything that you need to know about factory installed 427 Mustangs in 1967 - 68:
That's everything.
Quote from: sw44ma@yahoo.com on March 21, 2020, 10:34:04 PM
I am interested in finding information. About the production use of the 427 engine in 1967 1968 Mustang production. I would like to know how many Mustangs were created with the 427 during that time.
The factory may not have created any, but the need for street and track dominance created its own niche, ;D
About 14 years ago or so, I saw a 1968 W code Mustang GT fastback at the Tasca Ford car show. White with a red interior. It had the W on the windshield vin tag and a few bolt ons as I recall. Of course there was no Marti report or other paperwork to go with it. The point? Watch out for fakes because there are plenty of them out there. Like A Boss 302 with air conditioning, not a single documented one found ever.
There are some good fakes out there.
Since Marti has the original Ford records, you need to consult with him.
Years ago I heard from John Paradise that he had seen several W code Mustangs and Cougars. I don't know what that's worth but it seems that W Mustangs are a fairy tale.
It just takes someone in a non-title state with a set of matching die stamps to make one.
I will add also, that the value of a W code engine is limited. It is essentially a 390 GT with a 427 block. Ford made a decision that the 428cj was a better combination.
If you say it's not a good racing engine, I would refer you to the results of the '68 NHRA Winter Nationals. Those results would indicate otherwise. ;)
Wasn't Jimmys a W code ? Could be, maybe in Mejico...
Quote from: Kent on March 22, 2020, 05:28:36 AM
The mistery of the W Code, if somebody will find one that will maybe a million dollar baby ;-) maybe somewhere in mexico its sitting and waiting for bj or mecum ;D kevin marti will verify it ::)
+ 1 just checked with Mejico...no tinenen el carro de Jimmy, no tienen el Mustang con el motor W....no tienen nada !
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 21, 2020, 10:58:25 PM
How does ZERO sound? There were no 67-8 Mustangs, only a few 68 Cougars with the W code 427s. There are no Mustangs according to Kevin Marti for either year, despite it being shown as an option.
As a side note, don't necessarily trust Marti reports or window stickers either. I've seen them faked as well. If you find a truly oddball car with a Marti report, order your own deluxe Marti report. The money may be well spent! If you want to find a truly rare car, try the 68 1/2 Montego/ Comet R code sedan. Total number built? 1!
Wow really bad information regarding 1968 W code 427 engines.
The 1968 W code 427 is a side oiler 427. It is unlike a 390 in nearly every respect except that the 427 shares a cast crankshaft with the 390.
The cylinder heads in the 427 for 1968 are the C8AE 6090-J head. Valve sizes and port design are the same as 428CJ and 427 Low Riser.
The intake on the 1968 W code 427 is shared with the W code 1967 Fairlane 427 and also with 1967 and early 1968 428 PI engines. It was also used, along with the cylinder heads on the 135 series 428CJ cars.
Connecting rods are the 13/32" type used in the 428CJ.
The 428CJ is a cheaper way to achieve the same cubic inches. The side oiler 427 was a costly and time consuming engine to build. It was necessary for Ford to build enough of them to homologate the 427 for competition in NASCAR and NHRA.
The 1968 427 is rated at 390 horsepower, which is higher than the Boss 429 that was used the following year to homologate that engine.
There likely would have been a lot more 427's built in 1968 model year had it not been for the strike. Ford and Mercury had planned to offer the 427 in a variety of models including the Mustang and Shelby. It never happened of course.
The 428CJ was under development at the time, and was rushed into production at midyear due to the lack of performance engines to use in other product lines.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 22, 2020, 09:22:27 AM
There are some good fakes out there.
Since Marti has the original Ford records, you need to consult with him.
Years ago I heard from John Paradise that he had seen several W code Mustangs and Cougars. I don't know what that's worth but it seems that W Mustangs are a fairy tale.
It just takes someone in a non-title state with a set of matching die stamps to make one.
I will add also, that the value of a W code engine is limited. It is essentially a 390 GT with a 427 block. Ford made a decision that the 428cj was a better combination.
If you say it's not a good racing engine, I would refer you to the results of the '68 NHRA Winter Nationals. Those results would indicate otherwise. ;)
Quote from: Kent on March 22, 2020, 05:28:36 AM
The mistery of the W Code, if somebody will find one that will maybe a million dollar baby ;-) maybe somewhere in mexico its sitting and waiting for bj or mecum ;D kevin marti will verify it ::)
A couple of years ago I heard firsthand from Kevin at the Cougar nationals on his trek to Mexico to see the 2nd Bullitt car. Now if you are saying this is all a fairy tale please explain as this is the first I have heard about it. I find it odd that Kevin would spin a tail that could hurt his credibility in the industry. Gary
There are NO W code mustangs period produced by ford. There was one that was found to be faked a few years ago. I also spoke to Kevin Marti because of an issue with the reproduction ignition wires. I asked him just this question less than eight months ago. So yes, it's not a unicorn, it's a myth.
Hum? I haven't heard tale of any W codes coming up for sale in quite a while? Maybe even the early '80s?
I've SEEN at least one '67 GT500 claim to be all original with a 427. If you look at the car, first off you will see that there is evidence of it being repaired (well, but repared) from the firewall forward.
The late a/c louvered hood on an early '67 right off should be a clue?
Even so, the guy was offered 250 for it but as of 2 years ago was holding out for 350. It's a very nice car, but hardly and original one.
Just for the sake of discussion though, I'd want to see the casting dates on the engine. It was wrecked early on (at the dealer before it was sold new) and it is possible that it has a '67 427 "crate" engine in it?
It's an interesting car but still was done with smoke and mirrors from what I can tell?
Doug, I agree with you. No shortage of cars who replaced the 428, usually after failures with 427s. I am running one now as well.
I have a service block that is a thick-wall 428 as well. I think what I don't like is the removal of the export brace and cutting the Panduit tie warps every time I service valves. I found about 10 of the older nylon ones that show their age. I even have a Panduit gun that pulls them tight and cuts them.
I am happy with the change thus far.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on March 22, 2020, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: Kent on March 22, 2020, 05:28:36 AM
The mistery of the W Code, if somebody will find one that will maybe a million dollar baby ;-) maybe somewhere in mexico its sitting and waiting for bj or mecum ;D kevin marti will verify it ::)
A couple of years ago I heard firsthand from Kevin at the Cougar nationals on his trek to Mexico to see the 2nd Bullitt car. Now if you are saying this is all a fairy tale please explain as this is the first I have heard about it. I find it odd that Kevin would spin a tail that could hurt his credibility in the industry. Gary
Gary ,not sure what Kent meant but if I were to guess it was that the numbers were verified by Kevin. I am confident of that also. The rest of the car body not so much at least based on some portions of the car that got photographed and published.
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 22, 2020, 11:35:59 AM
Doug, I agree with you. No shortage of cars who replaced the 428, usually after failures with 427s. I am running one now as well.
I have a service block that is a thick-wall 428 as well. I think what I don't like is the removal of the export brace and cutting the Panduit tie warps every time I service valves. I found about 10 of the older nylon ones that show their age. I even have a Panduit gun that pulls them tight and cuts them.
I am happy with the change thus far.
When the 427 was new, it was a hard line 6,500 rpm engine. Valve springs were the issue. The rest of the engine was good probably with Lemans rods to 8,000 or so.
The CJ was similar with maybe a 6000 rpm limit.
Today we can build a real 8,000 rpm 7.
The problem with it is it is still a high maintenance engine.
At the moment my main concentration is on the 347. It's being a PITA like the 427. I've adjusted the valves three times and it keeps twisting up the carb linkage. I thought I'd be done with this last Ausgust? Oh, great big silly boy that I am?
There is "billiance" in the concept of a 428cj street car that can be driven every day. A 427 is really a race engine and you need to own one to realize what that means.
Actually, believe it or not but my Pantera with the Webers by comparison to my two other engines is virtually maintenance free?
It's my own fault. I created this situation. I need my own pit crew and team of mechanics. I need to be like a F! driver and just jump in and drive them...and stop complaining. I can't even stand to hear myself now too. I wish I'd just shut up?
Are the voices arguing, Doug? ;D
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 22, 2020, 12:01:53 PM
Are the voices arguing, Doug? ;D
You need to understand Keith. When the voices in my head say "kill him", I'm such a stubborn sob that I say no and tell them to FO.
I'm not sure what personality number i'm up to but when they all start up, you can't hardly hear a thing?
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 22, 2020, 10:10:29 AM
Wow really bad information regarding 1968 W code 427 engines.
The 1968 W code 427 is a side oiler 427. It is unlike a 390 in nearly every respect except that the 427 shares a cast crankshaft with the 390.
The cylinder heads in the 427 for 1968 are the C8AE 6090-J head. Valve sizes and port design are the same as 428CJ and 427 Low Riser.
The intake on the 1968 W code 427 is shared with the W code 1967 Fairlane 427 and also with 1967 and early 1968 428 PI engines. It was also used, along with the cylinder heads on the 135 series 428CJ cars.
Connecting rods are the 13/32" type used in the 428CJ.
The 428CJ is a cheaper way to achieve the same cubic inches. The side oiler 427 was a costly and time consuming engine to build. It was necessary for Ford to build enough of them to homologate the 427 for competition in NASCAR and NHRA.
The 1968 427 is rated at 390 horsepower, which is higher than the Boss 429 that was used the following year to homologate that engine.
There likely would have been a lot more 427's built in 1968 model year had it not been for the strike. Ford and Mercury had planned to offer the 427 in a variety of models including the Mustang and Shelby. It never happened of course.
The 428CJ was under development at the time, and was rushed into production at midyear due to the lack of performance engines to use in other product lines.
Thanks Royce - glad you're here for this discussion this time.
The "W code 427 Mustang" discussion crops up here on a regular basis and It takes the same arc every time -
• Did they make any W code Mustangs?
• No, no W code Mustangs as per Marti
• Really, so-and-so saw a W code Mustang at a show once
• No, no W code Mustangs, only Cougars.
• Well the '68 W code 427 sucked anyway.....
- Phillip
Should have posted this question on April 1st, eh?
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 22, 2020, 12:05:34 PM
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 22, 2020, 12:01:53 PM
Are the voices arguing, Doug? ;D
You need to understand Keith. When the voices in my head say "kill him", I'm such a stubborn sob that I say no and tell them to FO.
I'm not sure what personality number i'm up to but when they all start up, you can't hardly hear a thing?
Thanks for the laugh guys (intentional or not) ;D
It was absolutely intended as humor. Doug knew it too. Too many people with sandpaper wedgies way up there. A laugh and smile here and there is good for the soul! Carry on!
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 22, 2020, 01:42:00 PM
It was absolutely intended as humor. Doug knew it too. Too many people with sandpaper wedgies way up there. A laugh and smile here and there is good for the soul! Carry on!
Humor? I'm telling you what the doctor said. Then he said, "get out of my office. I have a gun here in the drawer and who are the Police going to believe? You or me?"
He was right. I just left without saying anything more.
I think he was bluffing though. I could see it in his eyes. Eff'in pussy. :o
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 22, 2020, 01:55:21 PM
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 22, 2020, 01:42:00 PM
It was absolutely intended as humor. Doug knew it too. Too many people with sandpaper wedgies way up there. A laugh and smile here and there is good for the soul! Carry on!
Humor? I'm telling you what the doctor said. Then he said, "get out of my office. I have a gun here in the drawer and who are the Police going to believe? You or me?"
He was right. I just left without saying anything more.
I think he was bluffing though. I could see it in his eyes. Eff'in pussy. :o
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I have been using that term a lot in recent history..
The '68 W code 427 is basically a 428CJ with a better short block and forged pistons. It's not high maintenance at all if treated with minimal respect. Certainly it will take more abuse than a 428CJ / SCJ without expensive damage. That's the problem with the '68 427 - some think they know something even though they have never owned one or known anyone who did.
Both Richard Petty and David Pearson won 16 NASCAR races in 1968 driving 427 equipped Fords. None of the other manufacturers won even half that number of races. Pearson won the championship easily because he also had lots of other podium finishes, more than Petty. Without the homologation of this fabulous engine none of that would have been possible.
Pearson went on to repeat in '69 driving both 427 and 429 Boss powered Fords.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 22, 2020, 11:55:24 AM
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 22, 2020, 11:35:59 AM
Doug, I agree with you. No shortage of cars who replaced the 428, usually after failures with 427s. I am running one now as well.
I have a service block that is a thick-wall 428 as well. I think what I don't like is the removal of the export brace and cutting the Panduit tie warps every time I service valves. I found about 10 of the older nylon ones that show their age. I even have a Panduit gun that pulls them tight and cuts them.
I am happy with the change thus far.
When the 427 was new, it was a hard line 6,500 rpm engine. Valve springs were the issue. The rest of the engine was good probably with Lemans rods to 8,000 or so.
The CJ was similar with maybe a 6000 rpm limit.
Today we can build a real 8,000 rpm 7.
The problem with it is it is still a high maintenance engine.
At the moment my main concentration is on the 347. It's being a PITA like the 427. I've adjusted the valves three times and it keeps twisting up the carb linkage. I thought I'd be done with this last Ausgust? Oh, great big silly boy that I am?
There is "billiance" in the concept of a 428cj street car that can be driven every day. A 427 is really a race engine and you need to own one to realize what that means.
Actually, believe it or not but my Pantera with the Webers by comparison to my two other engines is virtually maintenance free?
It's my own fault. I created this situation. I need my own pit crew and team of mechanics. I need to be like a F! driver and just jump in and drive them...and stop complaining. I can't even stand to hear myself now too. I wish I'd just shut up?
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 22, 2020, 03:59:17 PM
The '68 W code 427 is basically a 428CJ with a better short block and forged pistons. It's not high maintenance at all if treated with minimal respect. Certainly it will take more abuse than a 428CJ / SCJ without expensive damage. That's the problem with the '68 427 - some think they know something even though they have never owned one or known anyone who did.
Both Richard Petty and David Pearson won 16 NASCAR races in 1968 driving 427 equipped Fords. None of the other manufacturers won even half that number of races. Pearson won the championship easily because he also had lots of other podium finishes, more than Petty. Without the homologation of this fabulous engine none of that would have been possible.
Pearson went on to repeat in '69 driving both 427 and 429 Boss powered Fords.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 22, 2020, 11:55:24 AM
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 22, 2020, 11:35:59 AM
Doug, I agree with you. No shortage of cars who replaced the 428, usually after failures with 427s. I am running one now as well.
I have a service block that is a thick-wall 428 as well. I think what I don't like is the removal of the export brace and cutting the Panduit tie warps every time I service valves. I found about 10 of the older nylon ones that show their age. I even have a Panduit gun that pulls them tight and cuts them.
I am happy with the change thus far.
When the 427 was new, it was a hard line 6,500 rpm engine. Valve springs were the issue. The rest of the engine was good probably with Lemans rods to 8,000 or so.
The CJ was similar with maybe a 6000 rpm limit.
Today we can build a real 8,000 rpm 7.
The problem with it is it is still a high maintenance engine.
At the moment my main concentration is on the 347. It's being a PITA like the 427. I've adjusted the valves three times and it keeps twisting up the carb linkage. I thought I'd be done with this last Ausgust? Oh, great big silly boy that I am?
There is "billiance" in the concept of a 428cj street car that can be driven every day. A 427 is really a race engine and you need to own one to realize what that means.
Actually, believe it or not but my Pantera with the Webers by comparison to my two other engines is virtually maintenance free?
It's my own fault. I created this situation. I need my own pit crew and team of mechanics. I need to be like a F! driver and just jump in and drive them...and stop complaining. I can't even stand to hear myself now too. I wish I'd just shut up?
Well hello to you to Royce. First time I've been told to my face that I know nothing. Thank you.
Did Petty's engine come out of 68 W code Cougar? Was it an automatic or was that Pearson's?
Doug you are delirious. We have told you many times you dont know anything.
;D
Doug.. No 427 for you! Too fast for your Shelby Wheel chair! ( with signature delete)
The paperwork was filed to homologate the 427 in the Cougar.
Auto would have probably been fine for drag racing.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-220320203321.jpeg)
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 22, 2020, 08:22:27 PM
Doug.. No 427 for you! Too fast for your Shelby Wheel chair! ( with signature delete)
Too late! That ones' a tunnel port. I had to put a C6 in it though.
Quote from: Coralsnake on March 22, 2020, 08:11:26 PM
Doug you are delirious. We have told you many times you dont know anything.
;D
Well, this is true, but I expect that from you.
You know that I am normally flakey anyway, so with this combination of fever, cough syrup with codine and Jack Daniels, all bets are off? What will I say next? No one knows. Not even me. It depends on what's in the next TV commercial?
Depends? No not yet.
Best wishes Doug
More whiskey, less drugs 8)
Quote from: Coralsnake on March 23, 2020, 07:34:58 AM
Best wishes Doug
More whiskey, less drugs 8)
Nah, makes a blue haze, kinda' like a burnout?
Hey. Did you notice that a moderator showed up and just locked "that" (wink, wink) entire thread? Less work that way?
Sip. Cheers!
Quote from: propayne on March 22, 2020, 08:35:59 PM
The paperwork was filed to homologate the 427 in the Cougar.
Auto would have probably been fine for drag racing.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-220320203321.jpeg)
Are you claiming with this document that there were 1,000 427 Cougars made? Wow? 1,000? Where are they all?
Oh wait, I think I just saw another one just drive by? Sure. It had an Emu with sunglasses riding shotgun. It was yellow.
Ford pulled the plug on the Cougar program - so late in the year that it left Gurney and Jones without a regular ride for 1968.
- Phillip
Quote from: propayne on March 23, 2020, 08:50:33 AM
Ford pulled the plug on the Cougar program - so late in the year that it left Gurney and Jones without a regular ride for 1968.
- Phillip
So this document is not accurate? It's a falsehood? It states that there are 1,000 cars already made as on November 30, 1967?
Shame, shame, shame. :o
Is someone hording them all in a secret private collection? Maybe in a warehouse in Oklahoma?
Since they could not achieve the goal of homologation 1,000 cougars, all those 427 where installed in these water crafts.
Only three are known to exist currently owned by Barry Manilow, Rosie O'Donnell and Morgan Freeman
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 23, 2020, 08:55:15 AM
Quote from: propayne on March 23, 2020, 08:50:33 AM
Ford pulled the plug on the Cougar program - so late in the year that it left Gurney and Jones without a regular ride for 1968.
- Phillip
So this document is not accurate? It's a falsehood? It states that there are 1,000 cars already made as on November 30, 1967?
Shame, shame, shame. :o
Is someone hording them all in a secret private collection? Maybe in a warehouse in Oklahoma?
Wishful thinking?
Quote from: propayne on March 23, 2020, 09:56:57 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 23, 2020, 08:55:15 AM
Quote from: propayne on March 23, 2020, 08:50:33 AM
Ford pulled the plug on the Cougar program - so late in the year that it left Gurney and Jones without a regular ride for 1968.
- Phillip
So this document is not accurate? It's a falsehood? It states that there are 1,000 cars already made as on November 30, 1967?
Shame, shame, shame. :o
Is someone hording them all in a secret private collection? Maybe in a warehouse in Oklahoma?
Wishful thinking?
No, no, no! The document CLEARLY STATES that the build of 1,000 cars was COMPLETED on November 30, 1967! So where are they?
FORD wouldn't lie would they? I'm devastated.
There is definitely a conspiracy here.
I think the legal term for that is a "promissory note"?
As in, "Go ahead and homologate these, we PROMISE we will build them by November 30th, 1967".
That is a document the GT-E Registrar uncovered - I can do some digging and get more background.
Or Royce may know - if he chimes in again.
- Phillip
Quote from: propayne on March 23, 2020, 10:44:23 AM
I think the legal term for that is a "promissory note"?
As in, "Go ahead and homologate these, we PROMISE we will build them by November 30th, 1967".
That is a document the GT-E Registrar uncovered - I can do some digging and get more background.
Or Royce may know - if he chimes in again.
- Phillip
Nah, it's ok. I just got excited to think there were more of them still out there.
I'm married 33 years. I've learned to live with disappointment.
Got you beat by two years :o
Maybe Ford will resurrect Mercury and finish building these "original" 427 Cougars ;D
- Phillip
Quote from: propayne on March 23, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
Got you beat by two years :o
Maybe Ford will resurrect Mercury and finish building these "original" 427 Cougars ;D
- Phillip
Fantasy can be a wonderful thing. It can keep you going for years and give one hope.
No big deal if the 1,000 minimum required for FIA homologation wasn't met because nobody road raced them! Papers were filed in advance "in case" anyone chose to race them. So they aren't FIA legal , who cares?
Royce doesn't acknowledge ( rightly so) the three '67 427 GT500s , one '65 R model , or ten 427SOHC A/FX Mustangs because NONE were "Ford assembly line" built that way. All were built BEFORE sold to the "first legal owner" , but were "engine swaps" after being built on the assembly line with different ( production) engines. IIRC , Ford Engineering "retained" one Mustang for testing the 427 engine package , but it was NOT a W vin . The W code Mustang was NEVER given the green light for production. ONE would not have "slipped out" like the later "one of one" '71 Boss 351 now owned by Bob Perkins. Yes , I know it was repowered by Ford and sold as a 351-2V with changed VIN by Ford before being sold.
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 22, 2020, 03:59:17 PM
The '68 W code 427 is basically a 428CJ with a better short block and forged pistons. It's not high maintenance at all if treated with minimal respect. Certainly it will take more abuse than a 428CJ / SCJ without expensive damage. That's the problem with the '68 427 - some think they know something even though they have never owned one or known anyone who did.
Both Richard Petty and David Pearson won 16 NASCAR races in 1968 driving 427 equipped Fords. None of the other manufacturers won even half that number of races. Pearson won the championship easily because he also had lots of other podium finishes, more than Petty. Without the homologation of this fabulous engine none of that would have been possible.
Pearson went on to repeat in '69 driving both 427 and 429 Boss powered Fords.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 22, 2020, 11:55:24 AM
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 22, 2020, 11:35:59 AM
Doug, I agree with you. No shortage of cars who replaced the 428, usually after failures with 427s. I am running one now as well.
I have a service block that is a thick-wall 428 as well. I think what I don't like is the removal of the export brace and cutting the Panduit tie warps every time I service valves. I found about 10 of the older nylon ones that show their age. I even have a Panduit gun that pulls them tight and cuts them.
I am happy with the change thus far.
When the 427 was new, it was a hard line 6,500 rpm engine. Valve springs were the issue. The rest of the engine was good probably with Lemans rods to 8,000 or so.
The CJ was similar with maybe a 6000 rpm limit.
Today we can build a real 8,000 rpm 7.
The problem with it is it is still a high maintenance engine.
At the moment my main concentration is on the 347. It's being a PITA like the 427. I've adjusted the valves three times and it keeps twisting up the carb linkage. I thought I'd be done with this last Ausgust? Oh, great big silly boy that I am?
There is "billiance" in the concept of a 428cj street car that can be driven every day. A 427 is really a race engine and you need to own one to realize what that means.
Actually, believe it or not but my Pantera with the Webers by comparison to my two other engines is virtually maintenance free?
It's my own fault. I created this situation. I need my own pit crew and team of mechanics. I need to be like a F! driver and just jump in and drive them...and stop complaining. I can't even stand to hear myself now too. I wish I'd just shut up?
I know a guy with 2 W-code Cougars. He lives near me in Mi. His name is Ray. He also has a 427 Comet. You might know him? Gary
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 22, 2020, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on March 22, 2020, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: Kent on March 22, 2020, 05:28:36 AM
The mistery of the W Code, if somebody will find one that will maybe a million dollar baby ;-) maybe somewhere in mexico its sitting and waiting for bj or mecum ;D kevin marti will verify it ::)
A couple of years ago I heard firsthand from Kevin at the Cougar nationals on his trek to Mexico to see the 2nd Bullitt car. Now if you are saying this is all a fairy tale please explain as this is the first I have heard about it. I find it odd that Kevin would spin a tail that could hurt his credibility in the industry. Gary
Gary ,not sure what Kent meant but if I were to guess it was that the numbers were verified by Kevin. I am confident of that also. The rest of the car body not so much at least based on some portions of the car that got photographed and published.
Kevin also told me when he saw the car it was butchered already but they had the original parts in a junk yard not far away. They went and got the parts and tied them to a roof of an SUV and they were flapping in the breeze when they came back. Those parts helped him confirm with other things it was the other car. Gary
Again, Kevin said just the opposite in person as well as two articles he wrote that are on Google. There are 0 W code 427 mustangs, nor were there any 427 mustangs built on ANY production line at any Ford plant. They don't exist.
zero, zilch, zip, nada...none. ;)
https://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/newsroom/2016/01/the-_factory-427-mustang-myth.html
Hey I heard of a guy who tried to resurrect these unfinished fobras...
Quote from: propayne on March 23, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
Got you beat by two years :o
Maybe Ford will resurrect Mercury and finish building these "original" 427 Cougars ;D
- Phillip
^^^^ ding, ding, ding - thank you Tony!
- Phillip
(http://www.ponysite.de/8T02W1X.jpg)
Sat in one and I liked it:-). Right or wrong, those non-ex-factory ones are cool.
(http://www.ponysite.de/wcode427drive.jpg)
Quote from: TransamEd on April 14, 2020, 08:06:07 AM
(http://www.ponysite.de/8T02W1X.jpg)
Sat in one and I liked it:-). Right or wrong, those non-ex-factory ones are cool.
(http://www.ponysite.de/wcode427drive.jpg)
You Devil you! ;D
Yep that's one of the well known fakes that became really obvious when Kevin Marti was licensed to use the Fomoco records. Here are more photos of the fake data plate and windshield VIN plate:
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 14, 2020, 08:09:30 AM
Quote from: TransamEd on April 14, 2020, 08:06:07 AM
Sat in one and I liked it:-). Right or wrong, those non-ex-factory ones are cool.
You Devil you! ;D
Wow! Talk about 1 of none! Date 26Z 😂😂😂! DSO 85😂😂😂!
Yup! I want to see the entire serial number. That's a partial of the watanty tag. Lots of people punching up what they want for those.
I want to see the vin tag and co-oberating stampings.
There was at least ONE really good fake floating around out of Oklahoma around 1980. I don't know if it's this car or what, but burden of proof is on the poster. ;)
This particular car was sold by someone in OK to an unsuspecting person in Switzerland in the mid 1990's. That fellow put it up for sale in Switzerland in the early days of the internet and it ended up in Australia. I saved these photos when it was on eBay in 2009. There's a black 1968 convertible that is also very fake. I would not call either one "really good" because the door tag and the windshield VIN are very obvious fakes.
The white fastback was originally a C code 289 according to a good source. In the mid 1990's you could buy both a fake VIN for the windshield and a fake door tag from a company in Denver that is long defunct.
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 14, 2020, 08:54:59 AM
Yup! I want to see the entire serial number. That's a partial of the watanty tag. Lots of people punching up what they want for those.
I want to see the vin tag and co-oberating stampings.
There was at least ONE really good fake floating around out of Oklahoma around 1980. I don't know if it's this car or what, but burden of proof is on the poster. ;)
I'm glad Royce found the pictures of this car. I looked for it. I saw it too. Piss poor restoration/paintwork. To get a reproduction tag from Marti you have to provide both vins and the title for the vehicle. He's very particular. He used to stamp the aprons with the ford VIN. I don't think he's doing that anymore.
I remember the story vaguely. It was before anything could be documented.
We already had someone "Claim" that Marti said there was a W code. He said the EXACT opposite and to me personally. My statement wasn't hearsay.
We have had a couple talks about his product as well. The wires are done and fit well. I just wish he would have someone produce a much better quality wire so It would allow use on cars with performance ignition.
Why did seemingly all of Ford's stamping machines turn up in Oklahoma? I think I remember talking to that guy too. He had a very hostile aditude towards everyone and everyone was stupid except him.
I think there is someone there that stamps reproduction license plates in OKC. I wonder if It's Pookie's long lost cousin. LOL
I wonder if it's the same group that was making Shelby Convertibles?
I think the company is in Broken Arrow, OK. Brand New Muscle Car? I read about that somewhere. It's not even licensed by Carroll Shelby Enterprises, but Denise Halicki. What a "Blue Chip" investment. Basement models starting at 199,000. Oh, such a bargain. No race history, not historical connection, but it looks cool! lol
I have spoken to Kevin many times about this and he said to me several times that not only did it never happen but there is no evidence to support it even being planned to happen. Kevin has written in at least two of his books the same thing. If there is a car with a W in the VIN it is a 1968 Cougar or a 1967 Fairlane / full size Ford. No Mustangs and No Shelby products ever got a 427 at the assembly line in any Ford plant anywhere.
The spark plug wires produced by Kevin are made exactly as they would have been made in the period, using exactly the same materials and techniques. He's not interested in producing anything any other way.
Quote from: The Going Thing on April 15, 2020, 12:34:04 PM
We already had someone "Claim" that Marti said there was a W code. He said the EXACT opposite and to me personally. My statement wasn't hearsay.
We have had a couple talks about his product as well. The wires are done and fit well. I just wish he would have someone produce a much better quality wire so It would allow use on cars with performance ignition.
Well, at some point they'll realize that 99% of Shelby and Mustang owners aren't Concours types. We're performance enthusiasts while trying to keep the car looking somewhat period. Offering something that fits correctly and is of high quality would be received well.
I'm using Marti's wires with a pointless ignition.
So far I'm busy with other issues but I'm not seeing cross firing although I'm not going to be surprised to find some eventually.
I had a set of original wires that came with the car. I replaced them because they were hard and inflexable. They would crunch internally like a piece of chalk breaking when I would disconnect them from a plug. The Marti wires which look the same, do not.
They are soft and flexible.
My impression was that they were not of the same composition internally however consulting with myself, which includes a lot of talking to myself, doesn't come necessarily to the correct scientific conclusions. I don't think it is the same wire as what was on the car. It just looks the same.
I got the impression the original wires were some sort of a rigid carbon and the Marti reproductions were another type of wire although looking the same externally?
The main issue I see is the way that the wires connect to the cap. It's kind of crude and not as positive as an MSD cap would be. That's where I would expect to see cross firing. Right there at the cap.
The other thing is I don't know how long they will work with the headers? Only time will tell.
I've used Marti's plug wires on a couple Shelbys, and they've worked great. However, the set I bought for my current 67 didn't fare well. Several of the wires separated from the boot on the spark plug side. Given I love to drive my cars, I replaced those wires with 8mm wires. Now, all is good. 👍🏻
Quote from: Shelby_r_b on April 17, 2020, 08:05:17 AM
I've used Marti's plug wires on a couple Shelbys, and they've worked great. However, the set I bought for my current 67 didn't fare well. Several of the wires separated from the boot on the spark plug side. Given I love to drive my cars, I replaced those wires with 8mm wires. Now, all is good. 👍🏻
I have a couple of the blue Motorcraft 8mm silicone wires I was running. I got on this kick of making it look "original" (within my definition of looking original).
The power of suggestion from Gaines works on you. He has this subliminal power of suggestion and reasoning that is difficult to resist for ever.
I went with an AUTOLITE black cap and Marti wires along with things like blue painted wire clips on the valve covers. Just enough to make someone who has some knowledge look at the engine, see the little details and say to themselves, "huh?"
The Devil is devious. ;)
The Autolite cap depending on who you purchased it from are of great quality with brass contacts instead of aluminum. As for the wires, the final straw was the torn red boots despite the use of some dielectric grease in the boot.
Quote from: The Going Thing on April 18, 2020, 12:58:00 PM
The Autolite cap depending on who you purchased it from are of great quality with brass contacts instead of aluminum. As for the wires, the final straw was the torn red boots despite the use of some dielectric grease in the boot.
I'm not there yet. So far the boots are good on the headers. Maybe the ceramic coating helps?
The only thing with the coating, it always looks cool, and I've burned myself on the headers several times thinking they had cooled down?
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 18, 2020, 01:28:59 PM
Quote from: The Going Thing on April 18, 2020, 12:58:00 PM
The Autolite cap depending on who you purchased it from are of great quality with brass contacts instead of aluminum. As for the wires, the final straw was the torn red boots despite the use of some dielectric grease in the boot.
I'm not there yet. So far the boots are good on the headers. Maybe the ceramic coating helps?
The only thing with the coating, it always looks cool, and I've burned myself on the headers several times thinking they had cooled down?
Doug, I agree. They certainly don't radiate the heat of cast iron manifolds. The aluminum heads do cool much faster than the iron heads as well.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 22, 2020, 09:22:27 AM
Years ago I heard from John Paradise that he had seen several W code Mustangs and Cougars.
Late to the party.
At John's first Super Ford swap meet (70s) there was a 68 fastback roller there that had a 'W' stamped in the apron VIN, no dash or door tag. I asked John what the story was and he just said stay away.
We have established here , there , and everywhere , that Ford Motor Co never produced a W code Mustang for sale to the public DESPITE advance advertising , printing tire inflation stickers , and other things. No doubt the engine was "tested" by Ford on a Mustang converted by the "X" garage having an "S" engine code. A similar situation ( though not as widely publicized was the K and D engine code cars) I don't know that Marti has researched the K codes but "I" know for a FACT that two FORD OWNED '67 Mustangs WERE re VIN numbered DURING FORD'S OWNERSHIP to have a D ( tunnel port 302) SOLEY for presentation to the SCCA. Both of these '68 T/A cars still exist and their re stamping is well know and accepted. They will not be in his report data because they were NOT assembly line built with those numbers. The SAAC T/A registrar knows the name of the Ford employee directed to do the restamp.
There is ONE '67 R code Mustang that has been seen by our own Jeff Speegle and several others. YEARS ago (before Marti reports) I sent a "history 999" request to Ford about this Metuchen built black fastback. Ford "first" said it was a "P" code and a follow up letter said it was an "S" code "possibly" mis stamped at Metuchen. The letter specifically said the "R" engine code was not used on Mustangs in '67. In person observers of the car said there was no "positive" evidence ( besides the vin stamp) of the car ever having a 427. "MY" opinion is it is a mis stamp.
The three Shelby American '67 GT 500's are CONVERSIONS ( NOT produced by Ford) done by SAI "before" being sold to the "original owner". The Ford vin engine code is NOT R or W. This is not to devalue these cars in ANY way but to acknowledge Royce's statement that the FORD assembly line never produced a 427 FE powered Mustang. He has said this from day one. After all of this discussion I agree.
Yes saw and took some pictures of a 67 Fastback that was stamped as a 427 car. And as Randy mentioned Marti had not gained access to Ford data base at that time so didn't have access to that information. Over the years did check what Ford showed but it was recorded as an "S" but we know that Ford data didn't always match what was stamped on the cars. (example many Marti's for 67 Shelbys)
Not going into all the details but all the basic information collected IMHO suggests that the order was very likely meant to become a 427 equipped Super Stang. A promotional for Mainway Ford a dealer in Eastern Canada. But the order may have been killed after the body was started. Do have other examples of this taking place though very very odd/rare.
Car did not have a motor with it when I saw it nor did the owner get a motor with the car. Car was fairly stripped of interior since the owner at the time, was planning on doing a resto-mod after owning it a few years. From the evidence on the car it was equipped as you would with a purpose built car but I found no evidence that the car has ever been raced or abused as you would expect if it had been completed with a 427 and the car didn't have any of the body modifications that would have been made if converted by the dealership into a Stallion. A couple of the K code Stallions have turned up over the years.
Like many oddities over the years it was an interesting find and discussion starter :)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/13/6-090520001408.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/13/6-090520001433.jpeg)
As far as 68 only seen pictures of the one restamped W code others have mentioned
I have this "Stallion" in my files, photo probably'80s-'90s looking at the cars in background, Big boots on the rear !
Mike
Some more on the Stallion here,
http://www.ponysite.de/pony/stallion.htm
Interesting that the paint scheme is similar to the "Super Mach 1", a '68 Mustang fastback prototype built at KK.
Again, I reference the awesome book "Kar-Kraft, Race Cars, Prototypes and Muscle Cars of Ford's Specialty Vehicle Activity Program" by Charlie Henry.
Photo below is a scan from my copy.
Look closely at the blacked out hood with what looks like a very cool hood scoop.
According to the book, this was a 428 Cobra Jet Mustang that, among other things received fuel injection and a custom four-wheel-drive system that was installed in England.
As of the time the book was published, no one could remember what became of it.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-090520111342.jpeg)
Quote from: propayne on May 09, 2020, 11:24:13 AM
Interesting that the paint scheme is similar to the "Super Mach 1", a '68 Mustang fastback prototype built at KK.
Again, I reference the awesome book "Kar-Kraft, Race Cars, Prototypes and Muscle Cars of Ford's Specialty Vehicle Activity Program" by Charlie Henry.
Photo below is a scan from my copy.
Look closely at the blacked out hood with what looks like a very cool hood scoop.
According to the book, this was a 428 Cobra Jet Mustang that, among other things received fuel injection and a custom four-wheel-drive system that was installed in England.
As of the time the book was published, no one could remember what became of it.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-090520111342.jpeg)
Outside of a 135 car I would not expect to see the earlier 2 piece flush style rear side marker light on a 428CJ car. It must be a really early CJ or a non RPO car. Or the CJ engine could have been a transplant.
Interesting package. I'd like to see the all wheel drive system.
I've run into the Canadian delivered cars being a little different in certain respects before.
I wonder how many actually got built and sold.
I was looking for a front shot of that scoop. I have it somewhere. It looks a lot like some of the Chrysler offerings. If I can find it, I'll post it.
I'm going to take the Shelby out for a drive. It's 76 and sunny here. As a matter of fact my favorite Thai restaurant is open and calling my name.
You boys and girls up in the New England states much be loving the mid-May snow up there. ;D
My daughter in the Glen was whining about it last night.
Quote from: The Going Thing on May 09, 2020, 02:33:24 PM
I was looking for a front shot of that scoop. I have it somewhere. It looks a lot like some of the Chrysler offerings. If I can find it, I'll post it.
I'm going to take the Shelby out for a drive. It's 76 and sunny here. As a matter of fact my favorite Thai restaurant is open and calling my name.
You boys and girls up in the New England states much be loving the mid-May snow up there. ;D
My daughter in the Glen was whining about it last night.
N.E. OH. Mid to upper twenty's this morning with close to an inch of snow on the ground. Upper 30's now with an occasional snow flake. Last Sunday 76 go figure.
Thanks as always Jeff! Now maybe we can put this W code fairy tale to bed.
Quote from: gt350hr on May 11, 2020, 11:30:04 AM
Thanks as always Jeff! Now maybe we can put this W code fairy tale to bed.
Just for the record and for the benefit of the readers. It would have been an "R" for the 67 and a "W" for 68.
The "dealer installed" 427 stories/claims over the years have been massive. In some cases "they" have often taken to building even paper trails but that's a whole 'nother thread, of which we have done before :)
Ford went to the trouble of making fender emblems for the Fairlane with the 427. C8OZ 16228-A. Still didn't help getting the engine option ''made".
shelbydoug, getting a bit off topic, here's some stuff I have in my files on the 4wd Mustangs, there was an early car, and a
'69,there may have been more than one of each body style ? There is some on line if you dig around. I have a couple of articles
from English magazines on the '69, I believe it was Classic and Sports Car, or Thoroughbred & Classic Cars, I can't get to them
right now. I seem to remember that www.Ponysite.de out of Germany had something on them.
You guys know better than me if the under side shot is of the earlier car, or the '69.
Mike
Jeff, not sure if this quote matches your find. But I was about to update my Stallion page with some insider knowledge from back then, recently sent to me. There is more to it coming soon, which 427 engine actually was installed.
Here is the quote of John Petries mechanic Paul: "Yes I recall that Stallion as a metallic steel grey 427 wedge on Webbers and now that I think on it, I think it was built as a flag ship dealership promo car. It seems that the knowledge of a 68 Mustang with a 427 wedge produced by Ford is dubious and so far has not been proven... But I'm here to tell you that there was one, not from the factory, but by Mainway Ford on the Danforth."
Aside from that I'd like to correct some possible mix-up of the white "W-coded" fastback and the black "W-coded" convertible. The white 68 fastback is still in Switzerland with a collector, while the black 68 "W-coded" convertible is in Australia.
Wolfgang (ponysite.de)
Quote from: TransamEd on May 12, 2020, 01:16:29 AM
Jeff, not sure if this quote matches your find. But I was about to update my Stallion page with some insider knowledge from back then, recently sent to me. There is more to it coming soon, which 427 engine actually was installed......................
No was referring to only a 67 and apparently the Stallions that were built were only 67's. Likely the project did go as planned and they dropped the idea after that year and the handful of cars they did convert.
If they did sometime in 68 then it would not have been a very successful "Flag ship" of the project sine it would have been around a year or so already. Maybe the dealership couldn't get what they wanted from Ford so they built their own. Much like other dealerships did with individual projects.
Not sure where "Mainway Ford on the Danforth" is located. Want to fill us in on that?
Still thing there is a possibility that a dealer in Calif was turning out California Special convertibles but haven't found proof in print after all these years ::) But that is best saved for another thread :)
I have added Paul Patersons (John Petries mechanic) memory report now to the http://www.ponysite.de/stallion.htm (http://www.ponysite.de/stallion.htm) site as it was send to me some time ago.
Kevin Martis early research was indeed about 8 possible Stallions in 1967 delivered to Mainway.
I have had meanwhile 2 reports on 1968 GTS Specials from Mainway, cars that are not mentioned in either memories, not from John, nor Paul nor others.
http://www.ponysite.de/1968mustanggts.htm
I just put it up as scrap notes from the past 27 years Internet life. It is always interesting when genuine people pop up in the mail and add something to the story. That's why I keep an open mind for all bits and bytes:-)