When setting adjustable rocker arms on an engine with an hydraulic flat tappet cam, should I remove the distributor to manually spin the oil pump in an attempt pump up, or maintain pressure within the hydraulic flat tappet lifter for the rocker arm being adjusted?
I'm otherwise okay with the process of adjusting the rocker arms and offer the following as a check and for a basis of general discussion.
When an engine has a stock, or a mildly modified cam, I'm told that adjusting the rocker arms for each cylinder at TDC is preferred. This is because there's less chance of confusion, and at TDC both valves in that cylinder should be closed, meaning both lifters are on the heels of the camshaft.
I have also read about and used the EOIC method. Followers of the EOIC method believe this is a better method of determining that the rocker arm being adjusted has the associated lifter on the heel of the cam lobe, and minimizes errors due to variations in cam profiles for increased lift duration.
For those unfamiliar with the EOIC method, it may come across as being complicated or confusing, because you're monitoring one valve's motion and then adjusting the other valve. Additionally, as you work down a cylinder bank, you'll need to pay attention to the pattern of exhaust and intake valves. FE heads have the valve pattern of E-I, E-I, I-E, I-E, whereas the 289, 302 & 351W heads have a valve pattern of E-I, E-I, E-I, E-I. Anyway, the EOIC method breaks down like this:
Pick a cylinder for the exhaust and intake valves you want to adjust.
Rotate the crankshaft until the Exhaust valve of that cylinder begins to Open.
Stop rotating the crankshaft and set the Intake valve to zero lash and then tighten an additional 1/2 turn*.
If you have a locking nut, you can snug it now.
Rotate the crankshaft until the Intake valve begins to Close.
Stop rotating the crankshaft and set the Exhaust valve to zero lash and then tighten an additional 1/2 turn*.
If you have a locking nut, you can snug it now.
* Check with the cam or lifter manufacturer for this pre-load. I have read where some mechanics use additional pre-loads ranging between 1/2 turn and 1 full turn.
Steve
Why are you using adjustables? Those are for solids. Use the stock, non-adjustable arms, bolt them down and forget about it.
There is NO advantage to using the adjustables. None.
Well, that's not exactly true. I run adjustable too. There is about a .030 increase in lift with the 1.76 Vs 1.73 rocker ratio. You do not want them pumped up at all. You need to set your preload. When I get home this evening I will find and post the article on adjustment. You don't need to do anything with the distributor what so ever other than removing the wires from the valve covers and laying them to the front of the heads. You'll need a remote starter switch and I suggest unplugging the wire power to the coil. Anyway, I'll try and find the sheet when I get home, if not a link to the website.
Yes Doug ,
"Some of us do run adjustables on hyd cams for the reason Keith stated . the amount of lift increase is .003 x the lobe lift so on a .300 lobe lift ( .519 gross at the valve) the rocker change would make the gross lift .528. The bigger the cam lobe , the more lift. On my 428 with a .342 lobe , I get .012 which gets me right at .600 lift. Big difference? Not that big and might not show up on an ET slip. I did it because my valve stem heights varied a bit and I like less preload as Keith mentioned.
The average FE owner with a hydraulic cam doesn't need adjustables in reality , I agree.
Randy
The other really good reason for using adjustable rockers is that you can make up for differences caused by machining and non - factory head gaskets by simply adjusting the rocker arm. When heads get milled, blocks get decked, and you use some head gasket other than stock it can put the valve adjustment out of range of a stock non adjustable rocker and stock length ball / ball pushrod.
On the other hand the stock adjustable rockers are not known for being able to hold an adjustment for long when the adjuster has been used a few times. Of course there are first and second oversize adjusters to help compensate. There are also aftermarket set ups that use a lock nut to eliminate this issue.
I prefer the non - adjustables when I am able to control all the variables.
Royce hit a point I missed while sitting in a class. The FEs are a funny animal, and with a cam change and geometry changes it almost always needs a custom pushrod length. The adjustable rockers allow some compensation for small changes without having to go that route.
Anyway, I will look for the "cheat sheet" that works great for the KISS system for adjustment. I shall return!
Doug, Keith, Randy, and Royce, thank you for providing this technical guidance. I'm a hobbyist who's willingness to turn a wrench far exceeds my qualifications to do so. The good new is, my interest in high performance cars stimulates my desire to learn how to work on them. The bad news is, I all too often find that there is no such thing as a free education with on the job learning. I successfully adjusted valve lash on a 289 with solid lifters, after watching others do it. I never felt comfortable adjusting rocker arms for preload on an engine with hydraulic lifters, because none of my car guy buddies did it or showed me how.
Even though I could use a remote start switch to crank the engine, previous to asking for help, I decided to take out the spark plugs and spin the engine manually with a socket and ratchet on the harmonic balancer bolt. I did that because I thought it gave me more control on positioning the crank and cam shafts to determine when the lifters were on the heel of the cam. I removed the distributor because I thought that I needed to spin the oil pump to pump up the lifters. Now, if I understand your comments there is no need to pump up the lifters when I set rocker arm preload. And, I should adjust each rocker for zero lash and then add another 1/2 turn for preload. Zero lash is when the rocker arm adjuster applies enough pressure that spinning the push rod starts to become difficult.
Regarding why I'm using adjustable rocker arms...
In 1977, I needed to replace my original engine. I purchased a 428CJ that was pulled from a '69 Torino Cobra. I disassembled the engine and took the parts to Shaw's Speed Shop. The store's manager was more than willing, and I thought helpful, to make recommendations on how I should spend my money rebuilding the engine. Besides the typical procedures, i.e., hot tank cleaning, magnaflux, cam bearing insertion, bore and hone of the cylinders, I had the block decks paralleled and the block align bored.
When we talked about cam selection, I went with his recommendation for a Crane "Fireball" 34434 and hydraulic lifters. He also recommended that I replace the stock rocker arms with Crane adjustable rockers, with locking nuts, and the associated ball & cup push rods. After reading your comments, I was reminded of his reasons for going with adjustable rocker arms. So I feel better about his rationale for the recommendation.
The engine ran fine for a while but had a right side valve tap that I couldn't quiet even though I adjusted the loose rocker arms a couple of times. While checking the fluids after a day out on the road, I saw that my coolant and oil looked like a black and white milk shake.
That was back in the early '80s. I parked the car and pulled the engine, intending to rebuild it. Well, life events interfered and it wasn't until some 20+ years later later that I could do something about it. Incidentally, I was one of those guys that kept telling Domenic that the car wasn't for sale as I was intending to get to working it some day.
In 2007 I had a professional engine builder, Doug Meyers, rebuild my engine. He installed Crower cam 16243, the associated flat tappet hydraulic lifters, and push rods. He also reused my adjustable rocker arms.
Crower cam 16243, Grind #297HDP, is described as having:
Intake duration 297 degrees, Lift .590"
Exhaust duration 308 degrees, Lift .588"
Based on a 1.76 rocker arm ratio, Intake & Exhaust
The spec sheet doesn't provide an overlap spec, but provides information, "...for degreeing cam only. Correct only at 0.050" tappet lift.":
Intake opens at 10 degrees BTDC and closes at 46 degrees ABDC.
Exhaust opens at 57 degrees BBDC and closes at 5 degrees ATDC.
I can't really make hide nor hair of those specs, but I've included them in case they are important for this discussion.
The engine sat assembled on my engine stand until 2015 when I had my Shelby restored.
So, that's the whole story as to why I have adjustable rocker arms on an engine that uses an hydraulic flat tappet cam.
Any other tid bits of help you can provide will be greatly appreciated. I'd really like to get this engine running as it should, without having to pull it out.
Steve
If these are stock style adjustable rockers then you typically will need to replace all the adjusters with first oversize if you are needing to adjust them again. Otherwise they will come loose in no time and then you will get to do it again.
I learned a trick on adjusting hydraulic valves that is so simple it is ridiculous. But it works for me. I put a piece of masking tape on the valve cover sealing surface above the valves on each side the length of the engine. I rotate the engine until I get used to seeing how far each valve goes open before it starts coming back up. When I am comfortable knowing when a valve is full open, I can adjust the closed valve next to it. After adjustment I use a Sharpie to put an "X" above that valve so I know it has been adjusted.
Each valve is adjusted by running the adjustment out until there is play in the rocker arm. Use two fingers to feel and rotate the pushrod as you tighten the adjustment. When the pushrod cannot be turned with a thumb and forefinger you add 1/2 turn to the adjustment.
Eventually you will have an "X" next to each valve. Then you know you are done.
Quote from: 8T03S1425 on April 01, 2020, 12:21:06 AM
Doug, Keith, Randy, and Royce, thank you for providing this technical guidance. I'm a hobbyist who's willingness to turn a wrench far exceeds my qualifications to do so. The good new is, my interest in high performance cars stimulates my desire to learn how to work on them. The bad news is, I all too often find that there is no such thing as a free education with on the job learning. I successfully adjusted valve lash on a 289 with solid lifters, after watching others do it. I never felt comfortable adjusting rocker arms for preload on an engine with hydraulic lifters, because none of my car guy buddies did it or showed me how.
Even though I could use a remote start switch to crank the engine, previous to asking for help, I decided to take out the spark plugs and spin the engine manually with a socket and ratchet on the harmonic balancer bolt. I did that because I thought it gave me more control on positioning the crank and cam shafts to determine when the lifters were on the heel of the cam. I removed the distributor because I thought that I needed to spin the oil pump to pump up the lifters. Now, if I understand your comments there is no need to pump up the lifters when I set rocker arm preload. And, I should adjust each rocker for zero lash and then add another 1/2 turn for preload. Zero lash is when the rocker arm adjuster applies enough pressure that spinning the push rod starts to become difficult.
Regarding why I'm using adjustable rocker arms...
In 1977, I needed to replace my original engine. I purchased a 428CJ that was pulled from a '69 Torino Cobra. I disassembled the engine and took the parts to Shaw's Speed Shop. The store's manager was more than willing, and I thought helpful, to make recommendations on how I should spend my money rebuilding the engine. Besides the typical procedures, i.e., hot tank cleaning, magnaflux, cam bearing insertion, bore and hone of the cylinders, I had the block decks paralleled and the block align bored.
When we talked about cam selection, I went with his recommendation for a Crane "Fireball" 34434 and hydraulic lifters. He also recommended that I replace the stock rocker arms with Crane adjustable rockers, with locking nuts, and the associated ball & cup push rods. After reading your comments, I was reminded of his reasons for going with adjustable rocker arms. So I feel better about his rationale for the recommendation.
The engine ran fine for a while but had a right side valve tap that I couldn't quiet even though I adjusted the loose rocker arms a couple of times. While checking the fluids after a day out on the road, I saw that my coolant and oil looked like a black and white milk shake.
That was back in the early '80s. I parked the car and pulled the engine, intending to rebuild it. Well, life events interfered and it wasn't until some 20+ years later later that I could do something about it. Incidentally, I was one of those guys that kept telling Domenic that the car wasn't for sale as I was intending to get to working it some day.
In 2007 I had a professional engine builder, Doug Meyers, rebuild my engine. He installed Crower cam 16243, the associated flat tappet hydraulic lifters, and push rods. He also reused my adjustable rocker arms.
Crower cam 16243, Grind #297HDP, is described as having:
Intake duration 297 degrees, Lift .590"
Exhaust duration 308 degrees, Lift .588"
Based on a 1.76 rocker arm ratio, Intake & Exhaust
The spec sheet doesn't provide an overlap spec, but provides information, "...for degreeing cam only. Correct only at 0.050" tappet lift.":
Intake opens at 10 degrees BTDC and closes at 46 degrees ABDC.
Exhaust opens at 57 degrees BBDC and closes at 5 degrees ATDC.
I can't really make hide nor hair of those specs, but I've included them in case they are important for this discussion.
The engine sat assembled on my engine stand until 2015 when I had my Shelby restored.
So, that's the whole story as to why I have adjustable rocker arms on an engine that uses an hydraulic flat tappet cam.
Any other tid bits of help you can provide will be greatly appreciated. I'd really like to get this engine running as it should, without having to pull it out.
Steve
When I adjust valves, I bring the number one cylinder to top dead center on the compression stroke. O degrees on the pointer. I then put a chalk mark or piece of tape at the very top of the damper or the lower pulley. I adjust the valves on #1 cylinder. I then rotate the crankshaft 1 quarter turn and then adjust the valves on the next cylinder in the firing order. Each quarter turn you turn the engine brings the next cylinder in the firing order to TDC until you've turned the engine 2 full turns. You end up back at number one cylinder and you're done. 30 years ago, when I was bending pushrods on my Fairlane for no apparent reason, this was the quickest way to run the valves when I got stuck on the street and had to change them out on the road. Of course I know now why they were bending. .587 lift Crane cam, Sidewinder intake & the holes in the intake not big enough causing the pushrods to contact the intake manifold. At 6000 RPM, the pushrods didn't like that very much!😵 Be sure to check that when you assemble your engine.
Steve,
Doug Meyers is a great machinist/engine builder , long time Shelby owner and personal friend of mine for over twenty years. The cam he picked for you is 236* duration @ .050 on the intake and 242 on the exhaust. That is an excellent ''step up" over a CJ cam. Because of the nature of this aftermarket cam , I suggest using the Exh just opening - set the intake and Int begining to close set exh. That way you can be certain the lifter is on the base circle. Because it is a more aggressive aftermarket cam , you could use a 1/4 to 1/2 turn preload and be safe . "I" use 1/4 turn and a similar hyd cam in my 428.
Randy
I have a write-up about base circle adjustment. The way Ford tells you to do it for factory cams does not work with a cam with performance cam of this nature. If you're assembling the engine it's even easier when you can see what the lifter is doing. I have a couple of tasks to complete and I will try and get it posted for you. It really does simply adjustment so you'll get it right the first time. We have very similar cams, but I decided to run my cam with roller rockers.
Quote from: 8T03S1425 on April 01, 2020, 12:21:06 AM
Even though I could use a remote start switch to crank the engine, previous to asking for help, I decided to take out the spark plugs and spin the engine manually with a socket and ratchet on the harmonic balancer bolt. I did that because I thought it gave me more control on positioning the crank and cam shafts to determine when the lifters were on the heel of the cam. I removed the distributor because I thought that I needed to spin the oil pump to pump up the lifters. Now, if I understand your comments there is no need to pump up the lifters when I set rocker arm preload. And, I should adjust each rocker for zero lash and then add another 1/2 turn for preload. Zero lash is when the rocker arm adjuster applies enough pressure that spinning the push rod starts to become difficult.
Agreed, best procedure, remove the plugs, turn by hand.
No need to pump-up the lifters, as a mater choice I prefer them bled-down for better feel, but that's me.
Generally, the suggested sum of .020" - .040" "lifter-punger-preload" is that which one is targeting, if the adjusting ball stud in the rocker is 3/8" x 24 tread per inch, then 1/2 turn equals just over .020". But less is often chosen by racers who will maintenance this more frequently.
Quote
He also recommended that I replace the stock rocker arms with Crane adjustable rockers, with locking nuts, and the associated ball & cup push rods. After reading your comments, I was reminded of his reasons for going with adjustable rocker arms. So I feel better about his rationale for the recommendation.
In 2007 I had a professional engine builder, Doug Meyers, rebuild my engine. He installed Crower cam 16243, the associated flat tappet hydraulic lifters, and push rods. He also reused my adjustable rocker arms.
So, that's the whole story as to why I have adjustable rocker arms on an engine that uses an hydraulic flat tappet cam.
I would consider it to have been a good choice to use the Crane rocker arms in your build, and prefer them particularly, but even O.E.M. adjustable versus the nonadjustable rockers even in hydraulic camshaft applications whenever possible for a number of reasons.
And as one consideration for the naysayers, consider the scenario if you were to try adjusting for the lash value of a mechanical camshaft on the FE, using nonadjustable rockers, by only shimming up or down under the four rocker stands (equally)? Although I agree that perhaps the lash value of the mechanical camshaft is more critical then the lifter plunger preload value, but perhaps just the thought of the reasons why it wouldn't work (well ideally anyway) is what will spark the understanding of the preference for the possibility of individual setting of each versus an averaging of the whole. It may only prove to be a question of how accurate do you want to be? :-\
And, it would be better to use the E.O.I.C. process in adjusting with the more aggressive after market camshafts. ;)
Scott.
You don't want to run Crane Rollers. They're poorly made. The are known for bore wear and breakage. Not just my opinion, but many on the FE forum. A good reasonable unit is from Doug at Precision Oil Pumps. You'll want to run the stud kit as well and the end stands and end supports and shafts. The cam you're running will not work with stock springs or pressures. The seat pressure for that cam is about 135lb on the seat and should be about 335 open. The factory rocker shafts aren't designed for those loads and you're asking for a failure.
Either way, roller or non-roller you'll need the stands, shafts, studs and end supports.
If you ran single factory springs you'll have to pull the heads and have them set up. You can't run a .600 lift cam on stock single springs, retainers and unmachined guides. You'll have coil bind and wind up bottoming the spring retaines on the guide.
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/fe-ford-billet-end-support-stands/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/fe-ford-hd-chrome-moly-rocker-arm-shafts/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/fe-ford-roller-rocker-arms/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ford-fe-390-427-low-riser-428-cj-billet-rocker-stands/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ford-fe-390-428cj-427lr-rocker-stud-kit/
Quote from: gt350hr on April 01, 2020, 12:40:49 PM
Steve,
Doug Meyers is a great machinist/engine builder , long time Shelby owner and personal friend of mine for over twenty years. The cam he picked for you is 236* duration @ .050 on the intake and 242 on the exhaust. That is an excellent ''step up" over a CJ cam. Because of the nature of this aftermarket cam , I suggest using the Exh just opening - set the intake and Int begining to close set exh. That way you can be certain the lifter is on the base circle. Because it is a more aggressive aftermarket cam , you could use a 1/4 to 1/2 turn preload and be safe . "I" use 1/4 turn and a similar hyd cam in my 428.
Randy
Thanks for confirming that using the EOIC method of setting lifter preload for this cam setup. I'll put some effort in it tomorrow. I had to walk away from it as I've been more susceptible to repair related frustrations lately.
Doug is a good guy. I'm glad I found him and he's very close to where I live. He's a pleasure to talk with, not shy about giving me a tour of his shop when I drop off something to be worked on or ask to purchase something incidental, and someone who I'd describe as being a quiet achiever. I'm working on getting a date code correct short block and he'll be building a complete engine for me. He's already rebuilt the heads.
It's interesting that you described the cam he selected as an excellent ''step up" over a CJ cam, because that's exactly what I asked for. I wanted that and I wanted the engine to have a pleasant lump at idle. It does sound good at idle. That might sound a bit immature, but I think a moderate bit of immaturity is okay. ;)
The next time I see him, I'll ask about his Shelby and tell him that Randy Gillis says hey.
Steve
Quote from: The Going Thing on April 01, 2020, 01:03:19 PM
I have a write-up about base circle adjustment. The way Ford tells you to do it for factory cams does not work with a cam with performance cam of this nature. If you're assembling the engine it's even easier when you can see what the lifter is doing. I have a couple of tasks to complete and I will try and get it posted for you. It really does simply adjustment so you'll get it right the first time. We have very similar cams, but I decided to run my cam with roller rockers.
Thanks Keith. I'd love to see the write up.
I was considering roller rockers when I was having my engine built. Others also pointed me in that direction. I decided against using them because I was told that they may not fit under the Cobra LeMans valve covers, and using the Cobra LeMans valve covers was important to me. Are you able to use the Cobra LeMans valve covers with the roller rockers?
Steve
Yes, and clears the baffles. The factory adjustables hit them..
Quote from: pbf777 on April 01, 2020, 01:22:01 PM
Agreed, best procedure, remove the plugs, turn by hand.
No need to pump-up the lifters, as a mater choice I prefer them bled-down for better feel, but that's me.
Generally, the suggested sum of .020" - .040" "lifter-punger-preload" is that which one is targeting, if the adjusting ball stud in the rocker is 3/8" x 24 tread per inch, then 1/2 turn equals just over .020". But less is often chosen by racers who will maintenance this more frequently.
Thanks for confirming this for me Scott. It does require a bit more effort, but I'm not dissuaded from a technique if additional effort will produce the desired result.
However, it seems to be the general consensus that spinning the oil pump to pump up the hydraulic lifters was a waste of effort. I have since learned that hydraulic lifters have a spring as an internal component. That spring provides enough pressure to determine zero lash. The additional 1/2 - 3/4 turn preload may compress that spring, but on startup, oil pressure pumps the hydraulic lifter back up.
Steve
Quote from: Royce Peterson on April 01, 2020, 09:03:15 AM
If these are stock style adjustable rockers then you typically will need to replace all the adjusters with first oversize if you are needing to adjust them again. Otherwise they will come loose in no time and then you will get to do it again.
Yes Royce, increased clearance between the adjusting bolt thread and the rocker arm thread, from repeated adjustments concerned me. The adjusting bolts I'm using have a locking nut component. I was not aware that anyone made a "first oversize" adjusting bolt, but it makes sense that that is one way to solve the problem. I like the lock nut solution, but I have snapped an adjusting bolt or two by torquing the lock nut too tight. I've learned that snug is good.
Steve
If you are going to stick with the factory iron adjustables you can still find oversized adjusters. Ford Power Parts used to offer them years ago. I see them come up on Ebay from time to time still.
Only if you have stock '67 chrome valve covers. The factory adjustables fit fine under 68 - 70 valve covers. They also fit fine under Shelby LeMans valve covers of course.
If you really want to use them under '67 chrome valve covers Dennis Carrico (DSC) sells a 5/16" thick valve cover gasket to allow that to happen too.
Quote from: The Going Thing on April 01, 2020, 10:43:16 PM
Yes, and clears the baffles. The factory adjustables hit them..
Quote from: The Going Thing on April 01, 2020, 01:52:48 PM
You don't want to run Crane Rollers. They're poorly made. The are known for bore wear and breakage. Not just my opinion, but many on the FE forum. A good reasonable unit is from Doug at Precision Oil Pumps. You'll want to run the stud kit as well and the end stands and end supports and shafts. The cam you're running will not work with stock springs or pressures. The seat pressure for that cam is about 135lb on the seat and should be about 335 open. The factory rocker shafts aren't designed for those loads and you're asking for a failure.
Either way, roller or non-roller you'll need the stands, shafts, studs and end supports.
If you ran single factory springs you'll have to pull the heads and have them set up. You can't run a .600 lift cam on stock single springs, retainers and unmachined guides. You'll have coil bind and wind up bottoming the spring retaines on the guide.
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/fe-ford-billet-end-support-stands/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/fe-ford-hd-chrome-moly-rocker-arm-shafts/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/fe-ford-roller-rocker-arms/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ford-fe-390-427-low-riser-428-cj-billet-rocker-stands/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ford-fe-390-428cj-427lr-rocker-stud-kit/
Jumpin, Geehosafat Keith, That's a nice, dare I say sexy, rocker arm assembly. I especially like the shaft end mounts. I wish that Ford implemented the end mounts for CJ and SCJ engines. I can see where that upgrade would be a must have for a competition engine, but my engine will, at most, be stressed with spirited street driving, rarely, if ever, seeing 6,000 -> 6,500 RPM.
All too often I've heard that the engineers at Ford, GM & Chrysler engineer and design engine components for 100,000 miles, simplicity, and minimum cost. These engines were widely used and experienced infrequent breakage (that I've read about), unless stressed regularly, beyond "intended" use. That's probably a dangerous rationale to follow, yet many do with reasonable success, and I'll follow suit.
My engine builder, has a rather large following and predominately builds race engines. He's definitely not driven by date code correct parts, but rather squeezing as much power out of a build as the client's budget will allow. As I look at my valve springs, I see an inner flat spring and an outer round spring. I'm not sure what the spring pressures are, but suffice to say, I trust that Doug Meyers built the engine to a quality level that protects his reputation.
My next engine will be built as a 428 PI but with small upgrades to enhance performance. To me, gone are the days when every red light brought a challenge from "those kids with their cars always running downhill."
Steve
The adjusters have to be pretty loose (turning effort wise) because it is pushrod rotation ( caused by lifter rotation) on half of the lobes that causes them to back off. Why half of the lobes? Ford flat lifter cams have "dual taper" so that the fore and aft thrust on the cam is equalized this way. Half of the lifters turn one way and the other half the other way. ( Engines without thrust plate cam retention have single taper to keep the cam "loaded toward the rear".) It is up to the specific cam grinder as to which half goes which direction so it's difficult to say cylinders 1 , 3 6, and 8 or 2,4 , 5 and 7 will back off. I have boxes of oversize NOS Ford adjusters just in case AND Pioneer Products still sells the oversize versions as well.
Randy
Most of my engine builds get this setup for great reliability and low cost. Factory style rockers - brand new ones - on Doug Garifo's (pumbuilder.com) HD shafts using his HD end stands and spacers. This setup is dead nuts reliable for a mild street engine.
I have used Doug's rockers and they are nice but they are also very expensive and require unique ball / ball pushrods. Since I own many extra sets of ball / cup pushrods in various lengths I have tended to use either stock adjustable rockers or Harland Sharp rockers if cost is no object and the valve spring pressure starts getting high. Everything that I build uses stock drip trays under the rockers for best oil return to the pan.
I'm running the POP shafts, stands and spacers with Harland Sharp rockers.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/107-020420210028.jpeg)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/107-020420210103.jpeg)
Quote from: 8T03S1425 on April 02, 2020, 11:18:02 AM
Quote from: The Going Thing on April 01, 2020, 01:52:48 PM
You don't want to run Crane Rollers. They're poorly made. The are known for bore wear and breakage. Not just my opinion, but many on the FE forum. A good reasonable unit is from Doug at Precision Oil Pumps. You'll want to run the stud kit as well and the end stands and end supports and shafts. The cam you're running will not work with stock springs or pressures. The seat pressure for that cam is about 135lb on the seat and should be about 335 open. The factory rocker shafts aren't designed for those loads and you're asking for a failure.
Either way, roller or non-roller you'll need the stands, shafts, studs and end supports.
If you ran single factory springs you'll have to pull the heads and have them set up. You can't run a .600 lift cam on stock single springs, retainers and unmachined guides. You'll have coil bind and wind up bottoming the spring retaines on the guide.
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/fe-ford-billet-end-support-stands/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/fe-ford-hd-chrome-moly-rocker-arm-shafts/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/fe-ford-roller-rocker-arms/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ford-fe-390-427-low-riser-428-cj-billet-rocker-stands/
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ford-fe-390-428cj-427lr-rocker-stud-kit/
Jumpin, Geehosafat Keith, That's a nice, dare I say sexy, rocker arm assembly. I especially like the shaft end mounts. I wish that Ford implemented the end mounts for CJ and SCJ engines. I can see where that upgrade would be a must have for a competition engine, but my engine will, at most, be stressed with spirited street driving, rarely, if ever, seeing 6,000 -> 6,500 RPM.
All too often I've heard that the engineers at Ford, GM & Chrysler engineer and design engine components for 100,000 miles, simplicity, and minimum cost. These engines were widely used and experienced infrequent breakage (that I've read about), unless stressed regularly, beyond "intended" use. That's probably a dangerous rationale to follow, yet many do with reasonable success, and I'll follow suit.
My engine builder, has a rather large following and predominately builds race engines. He's definitely not driven by date code correct parts, but rather squeezing as much power out of a build as the client's budget will allow. As I look at my valve springs, I see an inner flat spring and an outer round spring. I'm not sure what the spring pressures are, but suffice to say, I trust that Doug Meyers built the engine to a quality level that protects his reputation.
My next engine will be built as a 428 PI but with small upgrades to enhance performance. To me, gone are the days when every red light brought a challenge from "those kids with their cars always running downhill."
Steve
Steve:
Because I suffered this fate I know it all too well. There are lots of good builders out there. The problem is most do not know the FE engine intimately. There are many intricacies with the FE that don't apply to most engines because of the head/intake design alone. If they don't seal, aren't cut to match the head after surfacing they leak. You wind up with port mismatch, vacuum leaks, coolant leaks, often into the oil or because of the drain back it pulls the oil into the combustion process through the intake port gasket leak.
Many forget to restrict the oil to the rocker shafts/top end and sometimes it creates a starvation issue in stock capacity oil pans. Jay Brown makes transparent valve covers. Some of the unrestricted systems can leave as much as a quart of oil sitting up top on each head. That leaves about 2.5 quarts left in the pan and on hard acceleration, it's in the back of the pan sump. Likely why the Ford TSB added a quart of oil and a different dipstick.
Your cam card should give you a recommened spring, or open and closed pressures. A single spring with a wound damper isn't enough for that cam. The NOS 427 MR springs I have about 96lbs on the seat and 265@ 570 lift. They are also very close to coil bind.
I wouldn't assume anything. I would ask him what the seat pressure was, the installed height and what pressure was over the nose based on your cam's lift. If he can't tell you, I don't trust his work. You don't want to do this twice. Your cam needs a minimum of about 10.5:1 compression.
I just don't like to see people learn the hard way.
Also a point to note: Many people don't consider that used parts have thousands of cycles and often are well over 50 years old. Metallurgy has also changed drastically in the last 50 years. I did away with the polished beam 13/32 CJ rods and went with a JE piston. I can safely spin the engine at 6500 rpm. The cam stops really making any power at about 6000 but the shift point drops me right back into the power band in the next gear.
I just like the fact that I don't really have to worry about a weak bottom end. Four times in and out is enough to convince me of this fact.
Low dollar short-cut builds leave our cars often a disappointment and unreliable. Just a little food for thought.
I lost a block because the builder wasn't familiar with #1 was. He was supposed to have bored the block and compensate for the core shift noted in the sonic He wound up boring to the thin side. I lost #6. It cracked and I wound up with coolant in the oil. He was supposed to have sonic checked the block to make sure it was at a minimum of .110 on the thrust side and no less than .100 at any point. I got the block back, dumped another 500.00 on bearings, seals, rings and 300 on machine work and lost #4 to the same failure.
Small mistakes get expensive quick in the world of the FE.
P.S. I am still looking for that adjustment sheet on performance cams. It's about the best one I've seen on the procedure. I adjusted them on the stand and they were dead-on the first time. Tight hydraulic tappets also cause all kinds of other issues. You don't want to screw the pooch.
Damn guys, showing me the beefed up rocker assemblies has me thinking that they're now a must have.
I like the idea of the shaft end mounts, and the rocker arm spacers, at a minimum. The roller tip rockers with inline, left, or right offset adjusters looks like it solves any valve stem to rocker head miss-alignment issues. Do all 428s have a bad valve stem to rocker head alignment issues with the stock setup?
Steve
They are FINE with as designed components. When you start making changes they require corresponding changes. In the day, Ford factory cams all had less than .500 lift. Even the 427. It was .500 lift and 244@ 50. VERY mild by today's standard.
You can't slap a valve job and the old umbrella stems seals on in this case. The bottom of the spring retainers will make contact with the stock valve guides and bend pushrods, damage guides and possibly even damage valves. Stock replacement spings also coil bind. ( The spring is compressed so that all coils make contact with each other)
I hear how great builders are all the time. This is not a brand X GM product, this engine requires knowledge that so many "builders" don't have because they don't do enough of them to know the quirks, if you will.
My intentions are not to scare you, just to make sure you don't have to start the assemble, disassemble game. Even worse, destruction of a date correct or original to car block. My car looks better than many people's trailer queens, but I drive my car. Not like grandma either. I have enough confidence in this build that I have no issue with spinning 6500.
If you want questions answered, I have no issue with you PMing me to keep it off the page here as someone will wind up with their underwear in a wad because they are still thinking stock or what worked in the '60s. Ford FE engines being built by Robotnic, Blair Patrick, Brent Lykins.
We have been KILLING all other engine combinations in the engine master competitions. 750 horsepower on a streetable FE was unheard of just 10 years ago. Do not blindly trust any builder. ASK questions. Get specification sheets. Don't skimp on parts.
I went that route the first time. It never ends well.
Quote from: 8T03S1425 on April 02, 2020, 06:07:46 PM
Damn guys, showing me the beefed up rocker assemblies has me thinking that they're now a must have.
I like the idea of the shaft end mounts, and the rocker arm spacers, at a minimum. The roller tip rockers with inline, left, or right offset adjusters looks like it solves any valve stem to rocker head miss-alignment issues. Do all 428s have a bad valve stem to rocker head alignment issues with the stock setup?
Steve
Just stick with the Crane ductile iron units, as they have proven to be simple and reliable, and more than adequate for your camshaft application. But I do recommend replacement of the O.E. shafts with a pair of the hardened steel units, again with your camshaft this sum should prove more than sufficient without the additional end-stand supports. But O.K., some of the other stuff does look cooler, but remember, they're hard to see with the valve covers on. ;)
As far as the "miss-alignment", sometimes swapping around the rockers for different positions aids; also realize that you can bump the rocker stands, both individually or as a hole, fore and aft some which may help. Be sure than concerns are truly existent versus perhaps just an awkward appearing presentation, and don't forget you'll be simultaneously changing the pushrod position as it passes thru the intake, so weigh that observation also. :o
And, concerning the single spring with damper as you described being present, although such do exist, I also would question whether yours' truly are capable; as although the rocker arm is supported on the shaft providing a minor advantage, I find that the FE still exhibits what one would consider a somewhat heavy valve train package as compared to many others. So perhaps a little inquiry of concern would not be misconstrued; as a matter of fact, on all cylinder heads we set-up we always supply the specifications on ones' invoice received, of the spring pressures as measured (not printed claims) at the established and also listed installed height, at .500" lift, with a statement of the observed spring rates (all 16 being measured), coil-bind position, guide/seal to retainer clearance, etc., so this inquiry shouldn't prove to be of any professional impropriety. :)
Scott.
I agree with Scott. A single spring with a wound damper is not going to give you what you need pressure-wise. The Edelbrock heads I purchased when checked were rated at .600 max lift. The were a single spring with a wound flat damper. At their installed height the seat pressures ranged between 79 and 88 lbs.
Far too light . The open pressure at .576 was 254-270 lbs. Well under recommended. To get the needed 135 on the seat and 330 open It required a dual spring.
The viton positive seals are required for a build of your nature as well.
I highly recommend Alex Parts. ( Link Below). They are reasonable and high-quality parts. He sells matched sets. You can literally provide your specification and he will come up with a set. I provided the specifications. Installed height, open and closed. He provided seals, seats, retainers, and springs. He tests each set. I also picked up the 2.25 X 1.75 stainless swirl polished valves.
The valves in an FE because of the stem thickness ( 3/8") are VERY HEAVY. You don't need them bouncing off the seats and floating when you're running the car hard.
Anyway, if you have single springs, it's not going to work for the cam profile, regardless of what the builder tells you.
https://www.alexsparts.com/categories/FORD%2C-FE-352%2C-360%2C-390%2C-410%2C-427%2C-428/
Alright, I gotta let you guys know that I spoke with Doug of Precision Oil Pumps and ended up buying his rocker shaft assembly kit. It came in today and I have to say he makes a nice product. It came nicely packed and clearly labeled with everything required; including very clear instructions.
The rocker shafts have a thicker wall than the stock shafts and no sharp edges, anywhere. All oiling holes are nicely, grooved, smoothed, and gently radiused to ensure thorough oiling of the rocker arms. He uses threaded plugs to close off ends of the shaft whereas the stock shafts use a pressed in plug. He also uses external snap rings instead of cotter pins to lock the end rocker arms in place.
To support the shafts, I went with his billet end and middle stands. Since I'm using the end stands, the end rocker arms are held in place with the additional end support and the external snap rings aren't used. The shaft supports are split so they clamp the rocker shafts to the heads.
The adjustable roller tip rocker arms are also made of billet aluminum. They ride on pressed in bronze bushings. Rather than using one wide bushing per rocker, Doug presses in two narrower bushings, one from each side. They are wide enough to provide a nice bearing surface yet narrow enough to leave an narrow annular oil groove that is fed by the oil hole in the shaft. The annular oil groove provides oil to two small holes. One leads to the push rod cup and the other goes to the roller tip. The adjuster is an Allen drive stud that is cupped to accept a ball/ball push rod and grooved and drilled to channel oil to the top of the ball/ball push rod. The adjuster is locked via a 12 point jam nut.
I also opted for the rocker arm spacers made of billet aluminum, replacing the OEM springs that position the rocker arms along the shaft and against the shaft supports. Small gaps between the spacers and the rocker arms and between the rocker arms and the shaft stands are minimized even further with shims provided in the kit. Three shim thicknesses are provided, 0.060", 0.030" & 0.015".
Finishing out the valve actuating assembly are the ball/ball push rods. The push rods have different ends, top and bottom. The bottoms are half balls that rest in the lifter cups. The tops are balls suspended on short necks slightly narrower than the push rod. The undercut under the upper ball appears to be needed for clearance where the push rod contacts the rocker arm.
All in all, this is a very nice upgrade to the stock rocker arm assembly used on hydraulic lifter FEs, or even if compared to the OEM type adjustable rocker arm assemblies as used on solid lifter FEs. It seems simple enough to me. One negative though is that some of the rocker arms have to be honed with a wheel cylinder hone to provide enough clearance so that the rocker arms can be mounted on the shaft. The bronze bushing ID is slightly tight. This is something that Doug addresses on his website, a note in the kit, and when he talked with me about his product. Unfortunately, I need to get either a new hone or new stones that'll fit my hone.
I'll post some pictures of the actual upgrade. More to come.
I extend a sincere thank you to those of you that introduced this upgrade to me, either in this thread or via the forum PM feature. A big shout out to Keith (TheGoingThing). He provided some independent guidance and reassurance during this endeavor.
Steve
Doug has been making FE rocker arms for over 35 years. Initially for FPP and quickly changed to "his own" branding. The geometry is excellent and they are super reliable.
Randy
Progress is has been slow on upgrading the valve train, and I'm now in a position that I'm ready to resume work, with a positive frame of mind.
One aspect of this upgrade that caused me to pause and research, involved me getting a better understanding of the FE oiling system and what I can do to improve its shortcomings. That was because I was told to use oil restrictors in the galleys that feed the rocker arm shafts. To this novice, restricting oil flow seemed like a risky alteration.
The most helpful and influential source of information is the membership of this forum. I also looked at forums specific to FE engines to fill in my gaps of understanding.
I found an article on the FordFE Info forum, and I wanted to share it with our "hands on" enthusiasts in the SAAC Forum. I'm sure that most of the guys that reached out to me already knew much of the info given in the article, but I'm also sure they still like a good technical article. This article really helps a guy like me. We can still work on the '60s/'70s era cars. They're pretty simple and if some of the unknown can be revealed, the confidence and fun factors go up. Working on these cars is half the fun of ownership. Driving them is the other 75% of the fun of ownership. ???
Here's that article I mentioned.
http://www.fordfe.info/Forum/Oil.html (http://www.fordfe.info/Forum/Oil.html)
Steve
More information than needed. However, if your mods weren't done before assembly it's too late now other than the restrictors, oil pump and drive.
You can't grind or drill at this juncture.