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Messages - Richstang

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1
1991-93 SAAC Mk1, Mk2 Mustang / Re: 1992 SAAC MKII Conv on BAT
« on: August 13, 2022, 09:37:48 AM »
This is a really sharp car!
I have seen it in person several times a few years ago. At the time it only had 1,500 miles on it.
The FOX Mustangs have been climbing in value.  The 62 completed SAAC cars are some of the rarest Fox cars out there! 
They only completed 7 red MKII convertibles and this one is probably the lowest mileage out there. 
Having no radio is not something we see often in any modern cars. There were only 2 SAAC production cars built without a radio.
I hope the new owner really enjoys having this one…and contacts me with a registry update.

2
Rich,

I do not know if the vin plates are reproductions or not as I have no pictures.  The information is according the the latest 1967 Registry.

I have attached my updated spreadsheet.

Thanks for your list Greekz!
It matches exactly as I have the derailment cars noted...6 cars with a 'Z' stamp and 8 unknown.
The last (15th) car may have been completely totaled and thus not listed as a Sante Fe sold car.
You may have posted this list before as it looks familiar.

I believe you have mis-interpretted the registry footnotes.
A car is only noted as having a 'Z' stamp when it is known, maybe even confirmed!

If nothing is written about a "Z" stamp in the footnotes it is NOT known if it has the 'Z' stamp or not.

The first car on your list is #02363. Check out those footnotes!
They state the car was 'MISSING' the Shelby ID tag...not, NO 'Z' stamp.

I think the other 7 cars on you list will follow suit as unknown.
Our SRG theory still stands with Ford's complete takeover in late April / early May.


Rich,

I did some reading as you suggested.  After reading the entire footnote, I see the unknown and VIN tag items.  Should have read to the end.  Usually, the "Z" information is contained in the first few sentences.

My assumption was SAAC, having copies of the invoices would know if the "Z" was part of the VIN.  That got me to checking my own invoice copy and what do you know, there is no "Z" preceding the VIN.  Maybe SAI did not think the "Z" was actually part of the VIN, but as you say, a designation for accounting the cars completed after the takeover.

Even though my invoice does not have the "Z", maybe sometime during its early life the car was inspected by the California DMV and the "Z" was added to the VIN for registration purposes.  The earliest registration car I have is 1976, and the car was titled with the "Z" as part of the VIN.

Thanks again for your efforts in researching the history of these cars.

Greek

Hi Greekz.

I don't believe any SAI douments had the Z stamp noted on them. If they did the registrar would have included that in the footnotes.
Since we believe the state DMVs all run independantly and individually depending on the person who inputs that info...
A car may or may not have the 'Z' noted as part of the VIN...technically it is not part of the VIN, just stamped in front of it.

Thanks for bringing this up. It was worth looking into as a possibilty.

Rich

3
Rich,

I do not know if the vin plates are reproductions or not as I have no pictures.  The information is according the the latest 1967 Registry.

I have attached my updated spreadsheet.

Thanks for your list Greekz!
It matches exactly as I have the derailment cars noted...6 cars with a 'Z' stamp and 8 unknown.
The last (15th) car may have been completely totaled and thus not listed as a Sante Fe sold car.
You may have posted this list before as it looks familiar.

I believe you have mis-interpretted the registry footnotes.
A car is only noted as having a 'Z' stamp when it is known, maybe even confirmed!

If nothing is written about a "Z" stamp in the footnotes it is NOT known if it has the 'Z' stamp or not.

The first car on your list is #02363. Check out those footnotes!
They state the car was 'MISSING' the Shelby ID tag...not, NO 'Z' stamp.

I think the other 7 cars on you list will follow suit as unknown.
Our SRG theory still stands with Ford's complete takeover in late April / early May.

4
Greek,
What are you basing your facts on.
I know you and Anthony have been studying the derailment cars for years and I’m a late comer on them.

We know the train rail cars held 15 Shelby models and only 14 have been identified.
Of the 14, I have photos of several of the cars and ALL of them show ‘Z’ stamps.
Many of the other cars have been noted as unknown owners in the registry.
Registry info of ‘Z’ stamps is typically owner supplied. We can’t trust that info without photo proof

You mention 8 cars not having the “Z’ stamps…
Which cars are those?
Do you have photos of any of those 8 VIN plates or any of those 8 cars?
Are they original or reproduction VIN plates?




Van,
I recall reading Carroll Shelby was paid a guaranteed 50K per year from Ford.
There is no paperwork found to date, that notes him taking money from the company.
As the president, I assume he took a salary. The Ford guarantee might be paid to him as the owner.




Anyone,
I would think Ford made the investment in SAI (1962) as a way to cut into GM’s Corvette sales.
They certainly knocked them down on the race tracks, to help sell Ford cars on Monday
I believe Ford looked at concepts to replace the Cobra in the mid to late 60’s for that reason.
They may not have been concerned about the bottom line, but a profit would have been nice.
Ford also avoided liability by having SAI, an official manufacture, taking on that burden.


5
Being an owner of a "Z" stamped car, this makes sense to me that Ford would want to account for cars manufactured after a certain date.  And, it is more feasible than the previous explanations given this new information.

Also, the "Z" appears to be a definite add on after the vin was applied to the tag, given the size and different font. 

Greek

I believe we have talked about the ‘Z’ Stamp getting added after the VIN plates were already on the cars.
Someone mentioned impressions on the inner fender from a heavy handed stamping on their car.


Let me add another detail about the ‘Z’ stamps and our SRG theory about Ford’s takeover…
As mentioned in my first post, Shelby sent an invoice to Ford for the ‘Loss of Use’ on company cars…it was issued on 4/26/67
That was the day before I noticed the ‘Z’ stamps appearing on VIN plates of completed cars.
Ford also opens up the sales channels to noted 1,000 non franchised Ford dealers in a letter also dated 4/26/67.
Officially, the Ford takeover likely happened on May 1st, 1967.
I believe Brian noticed that in some document changes, but I forget the complete discussion as to why he thought it was that date.


Another important detail was with the accounting depts. at both SAI and at Ford
The ‘Profit/ Loss’ of SAI in the three years of Shelby Mustang production and operations were not good.
-In 1965 SAI showed a ‘Loss’ of about $300K
-In 1966 SAI made up that loss with a ‘Profit’ of about $400K (no doubt helped by the Hertz deal)
-In 1967 SAI showed a ‘Loss’ of $750K.
That last big $$$ ‘Loss’ most certainly led up to Ford stepping in with a complete takeover.


The ‘SRG’ Google Group is not a social media site. It is just another place to discuss details specific to 1967 Shelby’s.
Non sense posts are not appreciated and are dealt with swiftly.

The SRG Google Group is independent of the ‘SRG Facebook’ and the SRG ‘MeWe’ sites.
Each has their own following and offer unique benefits to our research efforts.
Regardless, we all benefit from the shared research.

6
Updated list in post #1 with new info on plate '1N MFG 013'
THANKS to SZABO/Stephan...for the photo!


7
Shelbyman1970,

I imagine you enjoyed your visit to Brian’s man cave. He has changed several cars in the past few years.
Most are extra special versions that deserve a second look.
He doesn’t talk much about them, but is always happy to answer any question I have about any of his cars.

The information I’ve noted in the first post, is combined with the last several years of our research.
It is current as of August 2022

Oct 1, 1966 was the approximate start of ’67 production. Brian may have been summarizing the entire year in that website post.
I can’t speak for him,, so you would need to contact him and ask if you have any specific / further questions from his convertible site post.

‘Z” stamps did NOT appear on VIN plates until April 27th 1967. That is more fact than theory.
We have not seen any VIN plates stamped with the 'Z' before that date.
That is the point in time where we believe Ford took over SAI completely
Ford was always involved in SAI operations, but only to lend a helping hand up to that point in time.

We know Charlie McHose (Ford Employee) helped to design the 1967 Shelby. SAAC has published articles to confirm his efforts.

We also know Ray Geddes was sent to LAX (another Ford employee) to aid SAI in resolving problems at the start of production…
And to oversee the entire operation, so it ran more smoothly as production ramped up for ‘67.

If you want a deeper look into the entire run of the 1967 Shelby, our SRG sites, individually keeps up with new discoveries.
We dig deep into most every area of interest.  As mentioned before, the links are in my signature.

Brian’s ban from the forum is old news and in the past.
He was invited back a few years ago, but not in any official capacity, such as a direct email or call. Just hidden inside of a post back then.

The 1967 convertible site is fantastic site and focused on that car, #00139.
I believe Brian does update that site from time to time with new info.

8
It is great to read about our Shelby Research Group here on the SAAC forum. Nice to read our ‘Z’ stamped theory on Ford’s takeover.
There are many other reasons that led us to believe Ford took over SAI in very late April / early May 1967.
The ‘Z’ stamp on the VIN plate is just one of the reasons...

For example, there is the letter that discusses Shelby American getting split into 3 separate companies around this time. 
Another letter, discusses Ford opening up sales from the 90 franchised dealer networks to over 1000 non franchises Ford dealers around the country...
to move more units out of inventory.

Then there is the invoice from Shelby to Ford to get paid before the change took place on ‘Loss of Use” of company cars.
Then we see the DSO group number change. Originally it was ‘71', it changed to ‘84’ then to ‘89’ about this same time.
Each change reflected a point in time and Ford’s relationship. I’m sure the list goes on, but you get my point.

Years ago I heard the theory that the ‘Z’ stamped VIN meant that a car should have an outboard grille and lights.
After collecting hundreds of photos of every ‘67 VIN plate I could find, that theory dissolved.
I was also tracking VIN plate photos by the noted registry completion dates. I discovered the added ‘Z’ stamp appears on cars on 4/27/67
 … not one day before that.

Like most everything with ‘67’s, there are one or two exceptions to every rule. We found one car completed after 4/27/67 with a ‘Z’ stamp.
Thanks to Jeff Speegle for sharing that one! The outboard grille / lights start appearing on cars around the second week of May.
That was a couple of weeks after the ‘Z’ stamping started. It’s an interesting theory, but it doesn’t hold water anymore.

Another theory was the cars with a ‘Z’ Stamping were not to be scavenged for parts. That one faded away too.
It was mentioned here on the forum; Why not simply put a card on the dash?
Yes the “Z’ stamp would be more permanent, but who’s going to open and close every hood to check?

Recently, I’m hearing a theory the ‘Z’ stamps were added to cars that received the upgraded Mustang 390 brake pads.
(By dealers that already had cars?)
There was a Service Bulletin issued on March 1st 1967, to dealers, that the brakes pads should be changed to the new 390 on any customer complaints.
Ford was going to change to these other brake pads on Shelby’s after car ‘1422’. That work was under warranty, not a recall of any kind.
It doesn’t explain all the cars with the ‘Z’ the stamping after that ‘1422’ VIN and onward until the end of ’67 production.
Nobody would need to track those units. Also since that service bulletin was issued March 1st it was many weeks before we start to see the ‘Z’ Stamps!.

“98 SVT” I’ve noticed you quoting our SRG posts before, but I don’t think you’re signed up on any of our websites…are you?
We would welcome anyone who wanted to participate and help add information of any kind to the topics.
The links to our sites are in my signatures.

9
1967 Shelby GT350/500 / Re: Sleeping Beauty wakes up
« on: July 30, 2022, 07:05:42 PM »
Looking Good!

Is that a slanted grille on your car '427Heaven'?   
It seems a bit late for you VIN number.

Any engine photos?

10
older photos....maybe from Craigslist....maybe 2018. I'm not positive.


11
Up For Auction / Re: Passion For the Drive: The Cars of Jim Taylor
« on: July 23, 2022, 11:04:02 PM »
THANKS...
I didn't see that stamped black frame part that confirms it as CSX 3299
Too busy waiting for the description and looking for the aluminum firewall ID plate

12
Up For Auction / Re: Passion For the Drive: The Cars of Jim Taylor
« on: July 23, 2022, 07:05:16 PM »
It's been a few months and still no descriptions on the cars offered in the auction.
I'm wondering what is the CSX number is on the 427 in this link?
https://www.broadarrowauctions.com/vehicles/tj22_061/1967-shelby-427-cobra

It just might be csx3299. It seems to match in details to the photo in my files

13
Up For Auction / Re: Passion For the Drive: The Cars of Jim Taylor
« on: July 23, 2022, 12:22:11 PM »
It's been a few months and still no descriptions on the cars offered in the auction.
I'm wondering what is the CSX number is on the 427 in this link?
https://www.broadarrowauctions.com/vehicles/tj22_061/1967-shelby-427-cobra

14
SAAC-47 / Re: Saac 47 pictures anyone?
« on: July 16, 2022, 08:35:48 PM »
I'm still hoping someone will share the LMC concours enterred 'R' model number...

We knows it one of the earlier completed car from the first or second batch with the '65 grille and circular brake valance ducts.

Thanks for any help.

5R096

Thank You Brian!

The Comstock car was at SAAC 40. It certainly looks different in the factory finish!
I've never seen vintage photos of it without the Comstock sponsor livery.
Neat car to put back to original.

15
SAAC-47 / Re: Saac 47 pictures anyone?
« on: July 16, 2022, 06:39:50 PM »
I'm still hoping someone will share the LMC concours enterred 'R' model number...

We knows it one of the earlier completed car from the first or second batch with the '65 grille and circular brake valance ducts.

Thanks for any help.


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