SAAC Forum

Depending on when the accessory kit pieces were gathered and packaged for sale, three different "COBRA" emblems were used in sequence. I have personally seen these three versions used in kits Ford sold.




"S1CS-19523-B Emblem, AC_Cobra 2 9/16", in this case the second of two versions used in new Cobras and the first for two versions sold as service replacements and accessories until Shelby's California works stopped selling parts.



The "S1CS-19523-C Emblem, AC_Cobra" part was used in new Cobras CSX2133-CSX2589 and sold as an accessory while supplies lasted. Shelby American arranged for this part to be made.

The "Ford C3RA-14225-A 2" part was used in 427 Cobras and sold in large quantities as separate parts and in accessory kits. Ford Motor Company had these parts produced. The C3RA-14225-A part became the service replacement for the S1CS-C part circa 1966 and later the replacement for the S1C-B part also for all Cobras and 427 Cobras.

Quote from: alex74pd184 on April 11, 2024, 12:10:45 AMWith all these variations in a very limited production run, did Shelby build any 2 or more Cobras, exactly the same?

Within series, yes but with inputs for Shelby's works, Ed Hugus, street car customers, race car customers, racing advancements, Ford Motor Company, A.C. Cars, and changes suppliers made on their own, numerous revisions were made in specifications for completed cars between CSX2001 and CSX2188.  Hundreds of changes took place to start with CSX2201 that had been in development as far back as CSX2008.  From the very start, Cobra owners had to report their chassis number to parts and service departments to improve their chances of getting the right information the first time.

It is not really any different this century for Fords. We had a 2003 Ford Focus SVT. The center high brake lamp lens design changed three times in six months. The first two designs soon broke while installed.  The third design lasted beyond when we sold the car years later.  We have 2017, 2021, and 2023 Fords. Before doing any electro-mechanical service work the dealer's service department uses the VINs to access the specifications each vehicle was produced under. 

Quote from: nineinchrear on April 11, 2024, 09:29:45 AMBlock date 3E10, Assy date 3E15A and Carb 3DC (still has original Autolite).

Interesting. A private message sent through this forum with my email address should you care to share engine details for inclusion in the database I keep on early HP289 engines. An intact engine it that time frame is very interesting to study.

Quote from: alex74pd184 on April 10, 2024, 06:37:48 PMYes, thanks for the response. I sold a pair of mint "C3RA" emblems in Ebay a while ago to Legendary Motors in Canada. I think those emblems were purchased for a 427 car?

The larger Cobra medallion, is the one I wasn't sure of its application? I was under the impression, 1963 maybe?

Not really a "year" situation as between CSX2001 and CSX2132 several different mascot emblems were used with new Cobras. The S1CS-C emblem was standard for Cobras CSX2133-CSX2589 covering cars completed 1963-65.

My type set of original pieces. I am missing only a S1CS-B Version 1.

Quote from: wcampbell on April 10, 2024, 06:11:31 PMIf you happen to have an engine in your possession - would you be willing to share the casting date on the block? This might help further determine a car missing an engine near that time window to help narrow down a bit. For example if your block is say 3C15 (March 15th 1963) it might help to understand it's from an '63 car within X build window vs. 3K15 (October 15th 1963) which is considered a '64 engine installed in a car perhaps 75 cars later. I only suggest this because not all COBRA records clearly identify an engine. As well, knowing the model year it was intended for may help understand its market accuracy and value.

Engine assembly date is the single most important date detail, followed by engine serial number.  There was not ONE five bolt HP289 engine 1963-64 but a family of them with Ford changes in some significant components periodically. Engineering assembly numbers and quick order codes changed at each significant change in parts lists. (The time between the casting of a cylinder block and incorporating it into a complete engine could be weeks to several months, so that date is not all that informative.) 

Quote from: alex74pd184 on April 09, 2024, 08:25:37 PMAnyone know the application for this Cobra badge?

"S1CS-19523-B Emblem, AC_Cobra 2 9/16" - as contracted by Mr. Shelby locally legend says and used on most west coast completed cars between about CSX2032 and CSX2132. To be sure, one needs new car pictures of any given early car.


There were three almost identical versions of this design and the one shown is the second of the three to be introduced and used on new Cobras. The second and third versions were sold as service parts at least into 1968 and perhaps longer.  The second version is the one I see most commonly in new old stock form.

quote author=nineinchrear link=msg=195418 date=1712767141]
Is it possible to match a '63 HiPo engine to a particular car by its Ford stamped id ( PAxxxx)? Does the SAAC hold records of chassis/ engine number as built, either at SAI or AC?
[/quote]

Based on prior experience, it might not be the way you might have in mind.

Car owners can request information from any factory paperwork the registrar has regarding their car and in that paperwork might be the engine number documented for their car. One might ask if engine X was installed in car Y and get an answer if it is in the files.

Quote from: 69mach351w on March 28, 2024, 11:57:42 AM
Dan, I'm sure you know this. I read years ago that all the blocks back in the 60's (specifically, and maybe earlier and/or later), were in fact seasoned blocks. Left out in a field and "seasoned" with the cold and hot of the seasons. I never heard much more about blocks being seasoned as we moved closer to the 5.0 era and beyond. That may have been why the small blocks specifically was so strong and bulletproof!!
Any elaboration is welcomed!
Rich

1963-64 HP289 engines wise, days to a few weeks between block casting and engine assembly was the norm. The narrowest window I have in my 1963-64 data is casting the block 3E14 (May 14) and engine assembly 3E20 (May 20).  I bet there were shorter time spans as my data collection is not large. (Most engine date questions to asked of me are about original parts often missing like intake manifolds, ignition distributors, and carburetors.)

The "blocks" in HP289 engines were the same as any other 289 until they passed inspection and had the heavy duty main bearing caps added. The cylinder block assembly drawing (See Bob Mannel's publications.) for the high performance engine required blocks for the high performance assemblies to be free of certain defects.

You might try asking:

Fred Ballard (fredsclassics@hotmail.com)

The other great sources for HP289 factory parts I have patronized the last three decades have either retired or passed on but JD at this site might be able to help or point you towards somebody that can.

http://www.allclassicmustang.com/MustangpartsmustangpartsNOSmustangpartsrestoration.html

Yeah neat but, the "Windsor" family name is incorrect as presented in the opening. 

All the production Ford Motor Company U.S.A Ford Fairlane 221, 260, and 289 c.i.d. V8 engines made before about the late 1966 model year were manufactured in Cleveland, Ohio, U.S.A. and not in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.

Specifically, all High Performance 260/289 assembly line engines 1962-67 were manufactured in Ford Motor Company's manufacturing complex in Cleveland, Ohio, U.S.A. 

Bob Mannel's book describes the first 289 engines being produced in Canada in late 1966. There was a 351 c.i.d. engine made in Canada introduced in the 1969 model year. The "Windsor" tag came about when Ford started making a very different engine in 351 size in Cleveland Ohio for the 1970 model year. With two different 351 engine designs made in two factories, the Windsor and Cleveland suffixes to displacement started being used.

Somewhere along the line, authors started calling all Ford Fairlane 221/260/289 models engines, "Windsor engines" which of course was not ever true. Design wise they might all be called "Cleveland" engines with late 289s being made in Canada as required.

On August 23, 1962 an internal document, "Ford Motor Company Executive Communication ... Subject :  Shelby Cobra Program" distributed by L.A. Iacocca tells us how many Experimental High Performance 260 and how many High Performance 260 engines Ford made.

15 each "special order...hand built" 260 c.i.d. engines (the XHP-260 version)

185 each "semi-production...units" 260 c.i.d. engines (the HP260 version)

Note: Not all of these engines went to and or were used by Shelby American as other companies received some for racing or new car development.


A 4V 289 intake manifold painted an odd color cast December 13, 1963, middle of the 1964 model year roughly.

Quote from: 68blk500c on March 17, 2024, 09:57:38 AM
Thank you, Dan, for these closeup pictures of the choke cable bracket differences.  You enabled me to identify the "lazy Z" bracket which I have had for years.  Your knowledge is amazing.

You are welcome. Many people in multiple countries have helped gather data for Ford 4100-A C3OF-AJ, C4OF-AL, C4OF-AT, C6ZF-C, and C6ZF-F assemblies in the past few years. There were other versions listed in Bob Mannel's published works, but they have not been common objects of discussion.


C3OF-AJ, C4OF-AL, C6ZF-C, and C6ZF-F models were used across model two years in each case and some interesting (to me) changes happened along the way.

This data from Bob Mannel's book agrees with what we found during the survey done last year with unrestored and new old stock carburetors. The paint color daubs come from the research project. For whatever reason, Ford used the same paint color code daub and location on both the "M" and "MA" assemblies.

C4OZ-9A523-C / MA auxiliary venturi assembluies have gotten very rare. The table in Bob's book shows four (4) each different engineering numbered High Performance 289 specific carburetors using that part. They are very often found robbed and replaced with something else in cores for sale.


There were not many production runs by date for the suffix F carburetor assembly based on what data was collected last year.



The survey was pretty broad including Internet searches reaching back to 2002 and correspondence with people in other countries but some dates could have been missed. If you have an unrestored unit with a tag dated not in the chart and you wish to add to the data, please contact me via email.

As a side bar, the parts used to make up either assembly did not all stay the same over the two Ford model years Ford used them. It is not unusual to see cores and "restored" carburetors for sale with a mix of features and parts not seen in assembly line units. The subject of what versions of what was used when is way too complicated for forum posts.

Quote from: Road Reptile on February 27, 2024, 10:28:19 AM
Hi Hipo Fans,
First a huge THANK YOU to Dan for sharing a wealth of knowledge....Does anyone know how many engines were produced in 63-67 time frame ?

Regards R.R.

You are welcome. 1963-67 models, no but 1963-64 about 6,900 HP289s in multiple specification sets. The highest five bolt bell housing engine numbers that Bob Mannel and I have documented so far were installed in new Cobras.  See also Reply 6.