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Messages - JohnSlack

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16
SAAC Forum Discussion Area / Re: 1969 BOSS 302 GT 350 Prototype
« on: December 17, 2023, 02:51:16 PM »
I think that the end statement that is the one that will resonate loudest is that on December 17,2023 with four days left in the auction there are still zero bids. The starting point is $350,000.00.

So not a lot of people willing at this point to jump into the pool.

The car is a really interesting, cool looking, conversation piece. It has had a lot of high end atta-boys but is still not generating the fiscal interest in the deep end of the pool.

As a car I like it, at that price point, I don't.


John

17
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 15, 2023, 12:49:11 AM »
The bud moore oil pan is quite  the challenge to duplicate .

I also have the patterns that Rich Rodeck made of all the gating.


     Always make ones' own observation as to the potential effectiveness of any "trick" oil pan, this to ones' own application; as it is not so uncommon to have pans designed for specific car and track instances and may not prove "ideal" elsewhere.   ???

    Scott.

Scott,
I didn't have a 1969 Team car to restore. So I searched for all the parts to build a correct 1969 T/A motor. Over the years with parts sourced from so many different people I couldn't name them all. I have all of the parts (Except for Bud Moore valve covers.) To build a complete engine. So having the correct oiling system was/is a requirement. No I'm not running the ultra-heavy T/A rods and a center counter weighted crankshaft, (Randy Gillis talked me out of that over a dozen years ago.) As gt350shelb said, "you can't see them anyway", so why carry that downside.


John

18
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 14, 2023, 05:32:03 PM »
I think in most cases any of these pans is overkill in the vintage racing  groups/ but in being  period correct  must look the part ( what is inside  does not matter ) The ones i duplicated were correct inside and out the  bear was making the  tubing bends to match the originals .

The De-Aireator piece to me is a very complex part.


John

19
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 14, 2023, 01:52:26 AM »
The bud moore oil pan is quite  the challenge to duplicate .

It sure is.

built 3 at one time  with an original to copy

Very nice, I have two original pans. One really nice oil pan, another damaged pan. However I also have the patterns that Rich Rodeck made of all the gating.


John

20
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 13, 2023, 12:50:44 AM »
The bud moore oil pan is quite  the challenge to duplicate .

It sure is.

21
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 12, 2023, 04:16:30 PM »
Thanks for posting the pictures. Interesting stuff.

I'm aware of the 351c's running in Pro Stock with the Wieand Tunnel Rams. As I recall they all ran with add on plenums under the carbs. The volume of the plenum was important.

I can see that the inter runner "passages" were a direction in that thinking. The issue would be to fit that all under the hood of the Mustang so the height available for the manifold caused the problem.

I remember talking to Randy right after he was working on one of these setups at the track. He was so frazzled that he didn't want to talk much about them. Just a couple of generalities about the set up.

I was asking him about the fuel reverson and what was done with that. He said his solution was just to provide a "plate" over the carbs that just provided a place for the fuel droplets to accumulate and then run off the engine where it wouldn't be a hazard.

I've worked with Weber 48 ida's a lot. I know the frustration and had all to do but laugh out loud about it? In the case of the "Webers" on my Pantera the solution was putting 5" tall stacks on the car. Then the plumes would stay in the stacks.

When I had the Webers on my Shelby, they were on a Cleveland, and the stacks had to be shorter then stock in order to fit under the hood.

You can still see the marks under the hood if you look closely where the flames from the carbs when starting it cold did a job on the paint.

The Pantera does not have that issue. Lots of room over the stacks in that car.


Which is why on the air cleaner lid that Kelly made for the Dual Autolite Inline Intake that we are experimenting with we added an inverted focal point for the fuel to condense on above each barrel. Randy Gillis was part of that conversation. It will be getting a taller.elelment, and going through the hood of the BOSS 302. (Using a glass hood)


22
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 12, 2023, 04:04:12 PM »
shelbydoug,

As to the plug on the side of the Intake and what it's function is.....

As you will notice there was a fitting going into the side of the pan, inside the pan there is a baffle that prevents the oil from being drained onto the crankshaft (2nd Picture). There is the Holman Moody functional diagram that better explains everything and how it works to keep the pan full and the vacuum tank. The rear of the engine had a long pickup that scavenged the rear section of the pan since acceleration tried to make all the oil stay there.


John

23
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 12, 2023, 03:40:07 PM »
shelbydoug,

The first picture is of two of the Dual Dominator Intakes I previously owned. The upper intake was a real early intake that came out of the big Shelby American sale when they were closing down. That intake manifold has no coolant hose attachment spigots as the coolant was being taken out of the front of the cylinder heads. (Now you know why the 1969 BOSS 302 heads have that different flat surface on the front.) That intake has no passages under the carburetor mounting surface. From my talks with Larry Ofria who had done some experimentation with that intake with Shelby American that intake made a storm of stand off above the carburetors and did not get very far. The lower intake came from New Zealand, This intake was used with spacer plates on a 351C drag car. In order to make it work better they welded up the passages under the carburetor mounting flanges, and screwed some kind of home made adapter plate on to it.

The next two pictures show the early style intake with no passages under the carburetor flanges

The fourth picture shows the passages under the carburetor flanges on the later intake. There were different size "vent" passages tried between the upper and lower carburetor passage levels. My current intake has 3/4" passages however I have seen them with no vent and also 5/8" venting.

24
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 12, 2023, 03:06:30 PM »
The pics are appreciated by me John but how about top views?

Aren't the dual Dominators for the 69 B2 factory team car and those are serial numbered?

Here you go, here's mine.
https://imgur.com/gallery/eEcvBPr

       Roy

On your dual dominator intake, is there a plenum or runner that connects the front and rear carbs together?

The Ford Intake Manifolds never had a passage that connected to front and rear carburetors. The have been some intakes modified that have done that operation however that modification is a fail. The passages in your next question are somewhat small and are there to tune the band where the carburetors operate as Pure IR Which did not work vs. almost IR which worked better.

Is there a plenum under each carb or does each runner go directly to the head intake port from each individual runner like a tunnel ram intake does?
I'm going to post additional pictures which will cover that.

I see what appears to be a -10AN male fitting attached but is that a engine vacuum line or a crankcase breather line?
That is the crankcase breather line that would run out to a separator tank that would drain back down to a fitting on the front left side of the oil pan

Not to change the subject but since you seem to be familiar with some of these special Ford intakes, have you ever seen a version of your intake for a 351C with a 9.2" deck height?

That was not considered necessary for multiple reasons as the Dual Dominator intake didn't make it past the 1969 year. The Holley 4500 series Carburetors ran out of airflow on a 310 cubic inch Independent Runner engine at around 7,500 RPM. They simply did not flow enough for IR usage. I got this information directly in conversations with Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins. Bill had done extensive dyno testing with the Dominator in IR using the 4500 series Holley carburetors and had done testing using the even larger 4600 series Holley Dominators (Never produced past the experimental stage). I have seen dual Dominator intake manifolds that were used for drag racing with the 351C However they all have used spacer plates between the intake manifold and the heads. I have never seen or heard of a 351C intake manifold.


John 

25
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 11, 2023, 03:55:00 PM »
The pics are appreciated by me John but how about top views?

Aren't the dual Dominators for the 69 B2 factory team car and those are serial numbered?

The Dominator carburetor and intake manifold story is so awesome. There were several series of Dominator intake manifold made up. I have owned several of them over the years. This is actually the first one I ever owned, however I let it go in 1987 trading it for a set of chrome Magnum 500 wheels. I then went through several versions trying to get back to this intake manifold.

Yes each intake had an XE or SK number that told what was different about it.

This intake manifold had two ports that someone had filled with clay to change the shape of the port. This intake is $11 of the final series. I was talking with Larry Ofria who I worked for way back and showed him the intake. He asked me about the clay, when I told him I took it out, he told me that Shelby paid him to put it in to improve the intake manifold ports. Oh, Well,


I think that I have shots from above of the intake manifolds from that same series. I'll check, if not I can get them out of the storage facility and shoot new ones.


The Dominator (Not Yet named that yet - BTW) was technically doomed at this point, However unbeknownst to FoMoCo and Holley an insider friend of Ronnie Kaplan told him about the new carburetor and he arranged to liberate two pair out the back door and secretly developed an intake manifold for them. Not knowing that AMC had any FoMoCo showed up to the first race of the season. The SCCA tech people started to explain to the FoMoCo teams that the carburetors would not be allowed when a Ford executive noticed while passing the AMC pits that AMC also had the new monster carburetors. Originally he was quite upset that someone else had the new trick carburetors, however once he got back to their team cars and was told SCCA was not happy. He told the SCCA tech person "Anybody who wanted to get them could, go look at the AMC cars they have them.





John

26
1966 Shelby GT350/GT350H / Re: Going to install one of these on my car
« on: December 11, 2023, 12:31:19 PM »
I know a couple of people who have installed those. Good idea.

John

27
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 10, 2023, 09:27:01 PM »
damn doug did you sleep last night  :D

Well...depends? There's sleep and then there's sleep.

I'm not sure why even a race car would need that much pump shot. That is really a throttle response "thing".

You know, all this talk of the "drivers" blowing up the TP's at 9,200 is kind of silly.

IF you ever actually witnessed one of those Trans Am races with the team drivers, you might come to the conclusion that it was an attempted mass suicide? 8,000 rpm was NOTHIN'! They drove the cars like the winner was the one who blew the car up first 'cause they were all tryin' their best to go boom.

The key here is that manifold and now what you can flow on today's heads.


As I said, in switching to the T/A intake from the "turd", the idle vacuum dropped and so far, I can't get it to idle down to 750 like before with 15 inches. It wants 1,100. It may be the intake characteristics.
It is kinda' unique?

It came before tunnel rams existed but has tunnel ram characteristics without looking like one?

I'll get it right. It doesn't keep me from sleeping. Don't worry about that. Yea I sleep last night.

shelbydoug, did I miss the picture of the intake manifold you are talking about? After all I showed you mine before.

The first picture is of the not used 1969 Standard Flange Holley BOSS 302 Intake Dual Plane Intake Manifold - From FoMoCo to Smokey Yunick to Roy Richards to Me - NOS

The second picture is of the latest version of the 1969 BOSS 302 Dual Dominator Intake Independent Runner Intake Manifold From FoMoCo to Shelby American to Wayne Richards to Me to Scott Thomas back to Me - NOS

The third picture is of the 1970 Bud Moore Mini-Plenum for the BOSS 302 From Bud Moore to Rick Kirk to Me - NOS

John

Side views, Note the Standard flange T/A 2x4 and the Dual Dominator are the exact same height.

28
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 10, 2023, 09:18:50 PM »
Yours is so little.

Mine is just another C6OA. No biggie.


I don't know why the pictures are posting so large? It's too early to battle with the computer. I'm just letting it win for now.

Sorry. Mine really isn't bigger then yours.

I changed the pictures and made them larger, I also added two of it's friends since this thread is Technical Section T/A details

29
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 09, 2023, 10:39:19 PM »
damn doug did you sleep last night  :D

Well...depends? There's sleep and then there's sleep.

I'm not sure why even a race car would need that much pump shot. That is really a throttle response "thing".

You know, all this talk of the "drivers" blowing up the TP's at 9,200 is kind of silly.

IF you ever actually witnessed one of those Trans Am races with the team drivers, you might come to the conclusion that it was an attempted mass suicide? 8,000 rpm was NOTHIN'! They drove the cars like the winner was the one who blew the car up first 'cause they were all tryin' their best to go boom.

The key here is that manifold and now what you can flow on today's heads.


As I said, in switching to the T/A intake from the "turd", the idle vacuum dropped and so far, I can't get it to idle down to 750 like before with 15 inches. It wants 1,100. It may be the intake characteristics.
It is kinda' unique?

It came before tunnel rams existed but has tunnel ram characteristics without looking like one?

I'll get it right. It doesn't keep me from sleeping. Don't worry about that. Yea I sleep last night.

shelbydoug, did I miss the picture of the intake manifold you are talking about? After all I showed you mine before.

The first picture is of the not used 1969 Standard Flange Holley BOSS 302 Intake Dual Plane Intake Manifold - From FoMoCo to Smokey Yunick to Roy Richards to Me - NOS

The second picture is of the latest version of the 1969 BOSS 302 Dual Dominator Intake Independent Runner Intake Manifold From FoMoCo to Shelby American to Wayne Richards to Me to Scott Thomas back to Me - NOS

The third picture is of the 1970 Bud Moore Mini-Plenum for the BOSS 302 From Bud Moore to Rick Kirk to Me - NOS

John

30
Shelby American Racing / Re: Technical section T/A details
« on: December 09, 2023, 03:11:28 PM »
the list numbers on the  carbs on my intake are 4224 s
from holley web site :



Barrels   4
Booster   Straight
Brand      Holley
CFM   660
Choke   None
Emission Code   3
Finish   Gold Dichromate
Fuel   Gasoline
Fuel Inlet   Single
Material   Zinc
Model   4160
Primary Main Jet   76
Primary Pump Nozzle Size   25
Product Type   Carburetor
Secondaries   Mechanical
Secondary Pump Nozzle Size   25
Supercharged Application   No
Throttle Bore   1.688 inch
Vacuum Ports   1 timed (spark) port, 1 full, and 1 PCV port
UPC   090127000588
Part Number   0-4224


https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24980.0;attach=119015;image

The huge difference that the Droste carburetors have over the standard 4224 Holley 660 center squirter is the phased progressive linkage on the secondary side. This allows the secondaries to be brought in slowly instead of 1:1 bringing them in like a drag car. You get some low RPM drivability with this feature. People can modify the slot in the 660, However if you look at the pictures you can see that the opposite side of the cam slot for the roller to react to has a bump to close the secondaries as well. This feature is important, especially on a road race car.


John

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