SAAC Forum

Quote from: kranky on June 04, 2021, 08:30:18 PM
The first race to actually have a Cobra on the track for a "road racing event" was at Connellsville (August 25/26, 1962).  The entry was by Ed Hugus and the Cobra is 2001....it broke in practice due to teething issues (overheating?) and did not race on the weekend.

"Hill Climb racing" Cobras seem to appear around mid-1963.

"Drag racing" Cobras seem to appear around early-mid 1963.

"Autocross, Slalom, Gymkhana, etc." Cobras seem to appear around the mid-later part of 1963.

There could possibly be earlier events, but newspaper articles, etc., only reported the top finishers for events.

From the "kranky Cobra Race History" ??

Riverside, Ca.-3/4/1962
csx2000-demo laps-Shelby American

Waterford Hills, Mich-SCCA Regional-8/25-26/1962
csx2002-demo laps by Ford Engineers/Test Drivers

Connellsville, Pa.-SCCA Regional-8/25-26/1962
#?-csx2001-DNR-practice laps only-Ed Hugus

Riverside, Ca.-3-Hour Invitational-10/12-14/1962
#98XP-csx2002-DNF-Bill Krause-broken rear hub

jim p

Quote from: Cobrask8 on June 07, 2021, 11:47:52 AM

Quote from: TA Coupe on June 02, 2021, 01:45:38 AM
Vintage Trans Am cars will also be running this weekend.

      Roy

I saw somewhere that ESPN Commentator Mike Joy runs a Vintage T/A car?

It's the black #89 with gold stripes 65/66 A/S coupe??

https://youtu.be/PdqKEs18WuI

jim p

I can't tell on P1001, but interesting AMGT-2, P1009 & P1021 all have the BRM wheels already early in the  67 season.

jim p

Reading thru all the Ford internal memo's it's interesting to see the evolution of the "project".
I've read often the program was called the "T5", but that appears to have come much later.

The earliest memo dated May 23, 1962 discusses XT-Bird, a sporty car to compete with the Corvair Monza or a "Special Falcon"
key items: max interchangeability with Falcon chassis, introduction 1964 1/2 model in April 1964.

Then in the Sept 10, 1962 memo "Special Falcon Program Outline", they estimated annual volume at 130,000 units/yr.

It leads to the conclusion the main DNA thread is from the decision Ford needed a small, cheap sporty car to compete in the emerging youth market to the "Special Falcon Project" is what became the Mustang.  But WOW did they under estimate what that market was, and what huge internal scramble to spin up the production volume, scale up the supply chain and bring on-line 2 additional production plants!

interesting study on program management and the internal decision process to bring a concept to market.

jim p

Quote from: Tired Sheep on April 11, 2021, 09:30:26 AM
DST is a great mystery, there should be a lot more

DST - Dearborn Steel Tubing @MI
Carron & Co.  @MI
Livernois Engineering @MI
Bill Stroppe  @ CA
Watson Engineering  @MI
Roush Inc.  @MI

These were all used as outside engineering/fabrication/prototype contractors over the years, for performance, and regular production development programs, much like Kar Kraft, SAI & H&M were used for racing.

jim p

I have no connection to this, just saw it while browsing

https://vintageracecar.com/classifieds-2/show-ad/114392/shelby-cobra-289/production-cars/

CSX2194 has continuous and clean history from new as documented in the Shelby Registry (see downloadable document). Although being modified for drag-racing in the 70ies, it was never crashed or badly damaged. Around 1985, the car was restored to road race specification by then owner Ken Chevis (Glendora, CA) who raced it in the USA historic scene and the 1990 Nürburgring Oldtimer GP. A few years later, CSX2194 was then completely restored again - with "no expense spared" - by Gemini Racing Systems (Phoenix, AZ) after which it was displayed at Shelby American and the Imperial Palace in Las Vegas where it was acquired in 2000 by Brian Lane (Arlington, WA. Lane added a roll-hoop and race seat and raced the car on the West Coast of the USA after which he sold the car to Steve Hitchins (UK) in 2006 who sold it the following year to its current German owner. For the past 10+ years CSX2194 has been used sparingly at selected road/rally events and historic races such as the Shelby Cobra race at the Goodwood Revival in 2012 where it was driven by none other than Jochen Mass.

This guardsman blue Shelby 289 Cobra exudes wonderful patina acquired since its restoration about 30 years ago and is in excellent condition throughout. The car has been looked after by Torsten Schwartz of Total Performance who rebuilt the engine - delivering 410 bhp - in 2014 while the FIA fuel cell was renewed in 2018. The car has old FIA HTP papers from 2012 which need renewal and is road registered in Germany. CSX2194 can either be used as-is by its next lucky owner or it can easily be updated with a hardtop, roll-cage and some further race preparation to turn it in a competitive FIA Shelby Cobra eligible for all the prestigious events such as Le Mans Classic, Goodwood Revival etc..

jim p

Richstang,

I have a couple of different view that appear to be the same event,
interesting the shade of the Cobra appears to be lighter in some of these photos.
My notes for  the photos are;

British Motor Show 10/16/63
George Phillips Photograph Collection
Revs Institute® Archives

regards,

jim p

Quote from: Harris Speedster on March 31, 2021, 12:38:24 PM
No big deal Shelbyman, all in the spirit of research and documenting.

Little off topic:
Mustangs and Shelby's that went to Belgium, had entirely new serial numbers stamped into the body aprons.
Just an oddity that Mr Vinnie knows about too.

I got this from a friend, this is a T5 tag placed over the LH apron stamping.

jim p

Quote from: honker on March 29, 2021, 11:30:22 AM
Rich, thanks for posting, great stuff as always !

There are two threads on this, not sure where to put these ? if it doesn't fit will delete or move.

I hope I'm not getting ahead of you here ? Some stuff I have in my files, which I'm sure you have. Some of this might have been

on forum 1.

The only image I have of the GT40..where is that ?

The schedule on the back of the truck.

A hand out, not mine  internet find

What's the story on the GT350 and truck on a residential street ?

Mike

Mike, this photo is on the surface street in front of Cobo Hall, where the Detroit Auto show has been held for decades.
It has been changed and enlarged as you would expect.  The interesting thing is the street is a "U" around the freeway ramp that comes up after running under Cobo Hall.

Back in 2016 at the NA International Auto Show, Ford had J5, 5R002 and I believe #66 2016NGFGT race car there, I'll have to look for my photos.

regards

jim p

Quote from: 2112 on March 28, 2021, 11:30:01 AM
Are we talking about the original 60's GT40 or the '05-'06 FGT That the bumper sticker was in reference to?

The '05-'06 FGT borrowed Zero engineering from the F430. The 430 Carroll was standing next to was used to confirm all of the performance capabilities of the FGT would meet and/or exceed the 430.

Reverse engineering is a VERY long way from benchmarking a competitive product, these terms are not interchangeable and convey very different facts.
now does everybody use reverse engineering ( an attempt to copy in a "legal" way ) or benchmarking,
the 1st is a dangerous path as it can leave the person/organization at risk for legal action,
the 2nd is a prudent method of seeing if your product does perform well against it's competition.

IMHO

jim p

Quote from: Wedgeman on March 25, 2021, 11:06:31 AM
Prototype?? 

J C Whitney styling prototype

jp

Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on March 13, 2021, 12:02:09 PM
The Mark I was not street legal. They made the Mark III nose to raise the headlights to a legal level for street use. At least in the US.

The Mk III was a road-car only, of which seven were built. ..... many customers interested in buying a GT40 for road use chose to buy a Mk I that was available from Wyer Ltd.....

Huh?  "Mark I was not street legal"
P1057 "Production road coupe" vs P1001 "Production racing coupe"
I would infer "road coupe" is a description of a car not intended for racing?
So that leaves non-racing use i.e. street use.  now if you are debating whether those cars were "legal",
as you stated the MK-III was an attempt to make the cars meet the increasing Federal standards, just like 66 GT350 exhaust & 67 headlights
that is a much different discussion, as mentioned it could vary state by state & country by country as many stayed in Europe.

regards
jim p

Quote from: Dan Case on March 09, 2021, 05:04:41 PM

Quote from: 68stangcjfb on March 09, 2021, 01:51:11 PM
Would that mean those cars with the 2 barrel were the base 260 164 horsepower engine of the time that was being used in other Fords? If so, I know the cars are light as feathers and they got a dual exhaust system but really, how fast were they? CSX2000 being painted different colors and given to different magazines for road testing obviously had a 289 hipo in it?

This thread has drifted away from the original topic.

CSX2000 got two different XHP-260 engines since arrival in the USA. XHP-260 engines were protoypes made by Ford engineers, Some parts were production 260, some production parts that got modified by the engineers, and many parts were custom made. Even parts like big bolts had part numbers marked on them. Most of the protoype parts had individual serial numbers marked on them. Bob Mannel did a reverse engineering study on XHP-260-4 out of a Cobra for me and the owner of the unrestored engine back around April 2013. The more interesting, to us, findings are documented in his online version of his book.

Engine XHP-260-4 came out of a Cobra and got transplanted into a racing Ferrari. Circa 1993 the engine was removed from the Ferrari as it regained a Ferrari engine like it originally had. Bob Mannel's study and publication covers the various known details.  I have over 2,000 close pictures of components and some technical data files Bob made during the study. The details of all the prototype and preproduction parts in this old engine are staggering to comprehend.  Based on a key part's serial numbering I believe only 35 each XHP-260 engines were made. Cobras were not the only vehicle and Shelby American wasn't the only users. XHP-260 engines represented racing technology as Ford engineering understood it in 1961. By the time HP289s went into production in March 1963 a lot changed, mostly in cylinder head components. Still, HP289s were 1962 technology.



After XHP-260 engines there was a semi-production High Performance 260. Ford made at least 137 of them because #137 was installed in a new Cobra. The HP260s are the grandparents of the HP289 components wise except cylinder head assemblies which were like XHP-260 engines. Again, Cobras were not the only vehicle and Shelby American wasn't the only users. Dearborn Steel Tubing Company built up a prototype Ford Falcon with a HP260 engine and Ford allowed a magazine company to road test it and publish the results.

Ford did not start testing preproduction HP289s until the September October 1962 time frame. HP289 production started the first work day of March 1963.

This photo from Peterson's website shows the XHP-260-8 in CSX2002 during the testing at RIR with Krause driving.
I suspect this is just prior to the initial race, 8 hr Invitational Oct 12~14th 1962?

jim p

Quote from: honker on March 15, 2021, 10:08:14 AM
Not a Shelby, but much the same,

Reminds me of Canadian rocker Rompin' Ronnie Hawkins going into a dealer in 1967 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and looking at a
Rolls Royce. The salesman blew him off, so he went to the bank drew out $18,500 Canadian put it in a bag returned to the dealer
and dumped the money on the floor, and drove away in the car. The part I like is he asked the manager what the salesman's
commission would be, $1,500, took that money out of the bag and bought the car   
Mike

Reminds me of back in the late 70's I was working at a Mercury dealer in NW Detroit,
one day a guy comes in in his "super fly" disco outfit and pulls enough cash out of his fanny pouch to buy a Lincoln Continental,
bright blue, white interior, with white vinyl top, on the spot.
We all were betting the likelihood the cash was the product of certain non-legal activities !!??

regards,
jim p

Quote from: S7MS427 on March 01, 2021, 06:33:59 PM
I'd guess that an "Autolite Spread Bore" carburetor would be an Autolite 4300 unit.  IIRC those were designed by GM (Rochester) as an emissions carb.

I had the Autolite 4300 spread-bore on my 1970 351C 4V, they were also used on the 460's.
The carb and aluminum intake ( Boss 351 C part ) were setup and matched, carb flowed in the Ford dyno lab using a Crane Fireball cam back in 1975.
This involved changing the profile of the secondary metering rods.
I could roll into the throttle beginning @ 2,500 RPM and it never bogged or stumbled, you just would hear a deep rumble thru the shaker hood scoop,
and when the cam came on @ 3,200 RPM the big intake ports of the 4V heads started to pick up velocity the engine wound up quickly to 6,200 RPM.
of course the 4:11 rear helped get going quickly.  I could stay in front of 427 Vett's thru the 1st 3 gears, but cubic inches eventually win!
With the competition suspension, Koni's at all 4 corners and the G60 radial T/A's and manual steering it was a great handling car with plenty of GO.

regards,
jim p