SAAC Forum

Quote from: Cobra Ned on April 12, 2021, 12:17:23 PM
I believe the story in the Registry says all it needs to in order for anyone to arrive at a rational conclusion as to the fact that 3232 was severely wrecked and ended up eating resurrected from essentially its paperwork, albeit using what appears to have been a genuine Cobra chassis which was presumably renumbered. As to the legal aspects of the Registry and the facts it attempts to lay out, I will only say that I and the other Registrars do our utmost to present correct details, hence none of us are afraid to appear in court to defend our printed statements. Fortunately, we have prevailed whenever we have been dragged into court by an owner who felt wronged by the facts.

Thanks for your comments Ned & firm stance on correct details no matter how an owner may feel.

Quote from: tesgt350 on April 12, 2021, 07:26:47 AM

Quote from: Benny on April 09, 2021, 09:02:38 PM
Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

I believe this is the same Destroyed Cobra.,.......

What's clear in my mind, is todays CSX3232 isn't the Cobra that left Shelby American in April of 1966. That's the perspective I'll take when looking at Shelby's. Thank you for the extra photos.

Quote from: shelbydoug on April 11, 2021, 09:05:49 PM

Quote from: Benny on April 11, 2021, 06:04:09 PM

Quote from: shelbydoug on April 11, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
I think that if you, me, we are using a car like CSX3232 as an example, then there are several things to consider.

Certainly in the case of the comp cars, more then one have been completely re-created from the "remains" of the original. Many have been resold and personally I haven't heard of any "fraud" lawsuits involved.

It doesn't seem to be limited to original Comp Cobras that new purchasers accept the current existing car as they would the original and continue to race it?


So reconstructions of a twisted basket case race car seems to be more acceptable then a street car? It should also be noted that it may in fact be the SAAC Cobra Registry that coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that is constructed completely out of thin air, not even an original bolt.

Having said that, what is the acceptable level of replacement on a wreck like this? Records are attempted to be kept and the decision is up to the potential new purchaser?


It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.




When I mentioned a car to our Cobra Registrar, and it might have been this one, his reply to me was "I want you to be aware that what you are looking at is not the car that left Shelby American". I think that says a lot if not all, so anyone interested in buying an "original" Cobra has to make a determination of how satisfied they are with what the car currently is?

Your last paragraph sums it up nicely, its not the car that left Shelby American & the individual needs to determine how satisfied they are with the car & its history. I like the style of the Cobra Registrar.

You will like Ned. He's a great guy. We call him the Scud missile. 

Cheers Doug, I've only had the opportunity to email Ned a couple of times but I hope to meet him, you & others one day at a SAAC convention.

Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 11, 2021, 12:27:20 PM

Quote from: shelbydoug on April 11, 2021, 09:02:39 AMIt may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.

I still have some titles of cars I junked in the late 60s. We'd drive around and buy junkers for $10-15 and take them direct to the scrap metal dealer for $45. Those cars no longer exist so the titles are worthless unless someone is willing to commit a felony by stamping the VIN on another car. At that time a quirk existed in CA law. If I sold a car to a junkyard I was required to give them the title (or statement as to why I didn't have it). That title went to the state and was cancelled showing the car as junked. A scrap metal dealer was not required to obtain a title. The scrap yard was paying about $20 more per car than a junkyard. Those cars were being sent as scrap metal to Japan. If I had the title to a car and someone else had possession of the car the courts would have to figure out that one.
I know of at least one case where a person borrowed money from another SAAC member and gave them the title to their 65 GT350 as collateral. Hard times continued and he sold the car with a duplicate title he got from DMV after saying he had lost the original. In DMVs eyes the original title was now worthless as it had been replaced with a new one. It's hard to say what a court would find. The seller committed fraud. The person who loaned the money did not protect their interest by filing a lien with DMV and being listed as legal owner on the title.
The registration from Morrison's car is nothing more than a Rock and Roll or Shelby collectible. It has zero value as to the ownership of the car - only the title matters. Every year CA DMV issues new registration paperwork along with your tag. If someone was able to get into the DMV archives and check they would probably find that the Morrison car was junked. One interesting point is that CA DMV closed their doors to their historical records when it was discovered that Cobras that had been junked in the 60s and 70s were turning up with fresh MSOs and being registered as original cars. The "Air Cobra" scheme only came to light when the original owner of one of the junked cars came forward. He had purchased and still had the wreckage of his 427 Cobra that he purchased new, totaled, surrendered the title to the insurance (who notified DMV car was destroyed) and then purchased the wreckage back from the insurance company. The owner of the aircar had it seized by the CHP and after all was said and done his $250,000 investment was turned into a $50,000 kit car with a CA assigned VIN. He had no recourse since it was an all cash purchase - of course with such a small circle of Cobra buyers/restorers/sellers it was easy to figure out who had access to DMV records, who had the ability to create a Cobra from a pile of tubing and aluminum sheet and who was the logical broker for the dead guys car. Yes all (rumored to be 28) air Cobras just happened to come from estates of dead people whose kids always demanded cash and to remain unknown.

When you say air Cobras (rumored 28), is that series CSX2000 only or CSX3000 only or both series Cobras?

Quote from: shelbydoug on April 11, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
I think that if you, me, we are using a car like CSX3232 as an example, then there are several things to consider.

Certainly in the case of the comp cars, more then one have been completely re-created from the "remains" of the original. Many have been resold and personally I haven't heard of any "fraud" lawsuits involved.

It doesn't seem to be limited to original Comp Cobras that new purchasers accept the current existing car as they would the original and continue to race it?


So reconstructions of a twisted basket case race car seems to be more acceptable then a street car? It should also be noted that it may in fact be the SAAC Cobra Registry that coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that is constructed completely out of thin air, not even an original bolt.

Having said that, what is the acceptable level of replacement on a wreck like this? Records are attempted to be kept and the decision is up to the potential new purchaser?


It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.




When I mentioned a car to our Cobra Registrar, and it might have been this one, his reply to me was "I want you to be aware that what you are looking at is not the car that left Shelby American". I think that says a lot if not all, so anyone interested in buying an "original" Cobra has to make a determination of how satisfied they are with what the car currently is?

Your last paragraph sums it up nicely, its not the car that left Shelby American & the individual needs to determine how satisfied they are with the car & its history. I like the style of the Cobra Registrar.

G'day Doug & Roy, I appreciate each of your reply's & I'll keep posting away , cheers.

G'day Shelbydoug, I'm from Australia & 52 years of age & wasn't even born when these cars came into existence & I'm know Cobra expert. However through SAAC, becoming a member, purchasing a number of Shelby registries & joining the World Registry of Cobra website I'm learning how to identify Cobras via location stamped marks, photos & previous owners.
Without SAAC & their Shelby paperwork & other documentation, I'd have know idea how to differentiate a genuine Cobra over a great reproduction.
In short I never meant to upset anyone with my post or stir up trouble, I'll also remove the post if requested. Thank you for your response & personally I'll always rely upon SAAC & their information, cheers.

Hi 98SVT-was06GT, I never realised a person could get sued for asking a question & someone suggesting their honest opinion on historical information about a car? So much for history & freedom of speech however I'm very thankful for the records & notes provided by SAAC on Shelby motor vehicles & thanks for sharing your opinion, cheers.

Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

Here's a few photos of CSX2105 taken in 2014 when I met Joe the owner, Mustang State Titles Melbourne Australia.

Quote from: CharlesTurner on March 25, 2021, 04:20:00 PM

Quote from: gt350hr on March 25, 2021, 11:11:42 AM
  When different ethnic people come to the USA they often bring cultural practices "foreign" to "us". MANY of those practices are ILLEGAL! Now it seems we can't even talk about about those practices without being called racist. If the USA is SO racist , why not go back to THEIR country?

Imagine what the native Indians to North America thought when European settlers arrived...

What Him Say. (I loved this cartoon as a kid)

Quote from: stephen_becker on March 24, 2021, 10:56:10 PM
Time to take away his man-card & sell off his car collection!

Get woke
Go broke


https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/jay-leno-asian-jokes-apology-manaa-nbc-fox-1234937201/

Get Woke & Go Broke, I agree. Its a little bit like our modern day Wokies they're a long way from a Wookiee

Hi Ned, A-Snake, Kranky & Richstang, many thanks for all the photos, particularly the racing ones & Charlotte Motor Speedway, you guys certainly deliver the goods. I've liaised with Doug Chadwick, he plans to email me the panoramic photo from Charlotte Motor Speedway SAAC12 when he returns from travelling. I'll post his photo when I'm in receipt of it, cheers & thank you.

Hi Greg,
Thank you for the lead & I've emailed Doug, cheers.

Hi Bill & thank you for your input, I'll try & investigate SAAC 12 some how, cheers.