The Cars > GT40 - Original/Mk V

C8FE block

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gt350hr:
   Doug ,
     "Technically" there is no such thing as a C7FE block ,period. here is the GT40 block "lineage".
    Early cars ( after the attempt at using the pushrod Indy engine) used conventional Hi Po 289 blocks. Durability issues led to the improved C6FE casting number , two bolt , "steel main cap" block. Continued durability issues led to a four bolt main ( steel caps) block built with SK or XE numbers ( both were built). These blocks all had conventional press in freeze plugs and were also used in '67 T/A engines with C6FE heads. The block was revised for an additional oil passage and given the C8FE casting number. This "general" casting number block saw MANY spur of the moment changes and with different machining programs was used for Tunnel Ports , '68 Indy use with Gurney heads in "dry sump" configuration . The block was carried over to '69 Boss 302 use in both T/A and "street" configuration with the "steel" main caps and "dry deck" or "wet deck" being the major difference. The C8FE block was also a favorite of the Formula 5000 race group. MANY C8FE blocks have additional SK numbers scratched into the bell housing areas. These indicate the various revisions for specific applications.
    There you have it.
       Randy

shelbydoug:

--- Quote from: gt350hr on August 09, 2021, 11:06:39 AM ---   Doug ,
     "Technically" there is no such thing as a C7FE block ,period. here is the GT40 block "lineage".
    Early cars ( after the attempt at using the pushrod Indy engine) used conventional Hi Po 289 blocks. Durability issues led to the improved C6FE casting number , two bolt , "steel main cap" block. Continued durability issues led to a four bolt main ( steel caps) block built with SK or XE numbers ( both were built). These blocks all had conventional press in freeze plugs and were also used in '67 T/A engines with C6FE heads. The block was revised for an additional oil passage and given the C8FE casting number. This "general" casting number block saw MANY spur of the moment changes and with different machining programs was used for Tunnel Ports , '68 Indy use with Gurney heads in "dry sump" configuration . The block was carried over to '69 Boss 302 use in both T/A and "street" configuration with the "steel" main caps and "dry deck" or "wet deck" being the major difference. The C8FE block was also a favorite of the Formula 5000 race group. MANY C8FE blocks have additional SK numbers scratched into the bell housing areas. These indicate the various revisions for specific applications.
    There you have it.
       Randy

--- End quote ---


Well, I like having "it" BUT is the production '69 Boss 302 C8FE block a racing block or a non-racing block? Do the 69 B2 T/A cars use that block or another that you had to get out the back door but only if you knew the pass word?

There was also mention here of a metallurgy difference such as a higher nickle cast iron (I would presume higher nickel).

I've seen reference in writing to a C7FE block but have never seen one, just as I've seen reference to 68 and 69 GT40 Gulfs running Boss 302's.

Now I'm not claiming anything and in doing my research I'm aware that one can not always feel comfortable about the accuracy of eye witnesses seeing the flying monkeys.

The C8FE Boss 302 blocks have screw in "water plugs" as well, correct?

6R07mi:

--- Quote from: gt350hr on August 09, 2021, 11:06:39 AM ---   Doug ,
     "Technically" there is no such thing as a C7FE block ,period. here is the GT40 block "lineage".
    Early cars ( after the attempt at using the pushrod Indy engine) used conventional Hi Po 289 blocks. Durability issues led to the improved C6FE casting number , two bolt , "steel main cap" block. Continued durability issues led to a four bolt main ( steel caps) block built with SK or XE numbers ( both were built). These blocks all had conventional press in freeze plugs and were also used in '67 T/A engines with C6FE heads. The block was revised for an additional oil passage and given the C8FE casting number. This "general" casting number block saw MANY spur of the moment changes and with different machining programs was used for Tunnel Ports , '68 Indy use with Gurney heads in "dry sump" configuration . The block was carried over to '69 Boss 302 use in both T/A and "street" configuration with the "steel" main caps and "dry deck" or "wet deck" being the major difference. The C8FE block was also a favorite of the Formula 5000 race group. MANY C8FE blocks have additional SK numbers scratched into the bell housing areas. These indicate the various revisions for specific applications.
    There you have it.
       Randy

--- End quote ---

Randy,
 The updated GT-40 FIA form dated 68? listed the 4,942 displacement addendum, including the 5.0L crank set (C8FE ??) and G-W heads shown in the supporting photos.
I thought that was to homologate the JWA-Gulf  G-W engine for 68 / 69 seasons??
Were the JWA-Gulf  G-W all dry-deck using the Cooper ring sealing system?
Did they use both 2 & 4 bolt mains block configuration?

Thanks for the details

jim p

Royce Peterson:
Years ago (more than twenty) I spoke to a retired metallurgist engineer who was supervisor at the Cleveland Ford foundry when he retired in the late 1990's. His response when I asked him about "High Nickel" Ford blocks was to say that anyone making such a claim didn't understand engine blocks or iron casting. Nickel is (he said) inevitable in iron ore. The amount varies. Too much and cutting tools start breaking. So part of his job was to test iron pours every hour, maintaining certain levels of nickel, phosphorous, and a host of other trace elements to a standard that met the design criteria for what was being made.

He did note that when high performance engine blocks were being cast the mix would often call for a higher level of chromium than was normally present in iron ore. To meet the design criteria would often require adding more bags of chromium to the iron heat.

We were specifically discussing 427 blocks but I suspect the Le Mans 302 engines would have received similar treatment.

Your question is also uninformed but deserves an answer so that you can become informed. The presence of a certain casting number would not tell everything or necessarily anything about the intended purpose. A C8FE block made for production would not be the same as a C8FE block intended for a LeMans or other race program. Production tooling was costly and the iron pour for production blocks would differ from what was used to make special race only engines that would likely be machined offsite. Simply looking at the casting number won't get you to any form of identification.





--- Quote from: shelbydoug on August 09, 2021, 01:18:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: gt350hr on August 09, 2021, 11:06:39 AM ---   Doug ,
     "Technically" there is no such thing as a C7FE block ,period. here is the GT40 block "lineage".
    Early cars ( after the attempt at using the pushrod Indy engine) used conventional Hi Po 289 blocks. Durability issues led to the improved C6FE casting number , two bolt , "steel main cap" block. Continued durability issues led to a four bolt main ( steel caps) block built with SK or XE numbers ( both were built). These blocks all had conventional press in freeze plugs and were also used in '67 T/A engines with C6FE heads. The block was revised for an additional oil passage and given the C8FE casting number. This "general" casting number block saw MANY spur of the moment changes and with different machining programs was used for Tunnel Ports , '68 Indy use with Gurney heads in "dry sump" configuration . The block was carried over to '69 Boss 302 use in both T/A and "street" configuration with the "steel" main caps and "dry deck" or "wet deck" being the major difference. The C8FE block was also a favorite of the Formula 5000 race group. MANY C8FE blocks have additional SK numbers scratched into the bell housing areas. These indicate the various revisions for specific applications.
    There you have it.
       Randy

--- End quote ---


Well, I like having "it" BUT is the production '69 Boss 302 C8FE block a racing block or a non-racing block? Do the 69 B2 T/A cars use that block or another that you had to get out the back door but only if you knew the pass word?

There was also mention here of a metallurgy difference such as a higher nickle cast iron (I would presume higher nickel).

I've seen reference in writing to a C7FE block but have never seen one, just as I've seen reference to 68 and 69 GT40 Gulfs running Boss 302's.

Now I'm not claiming anything and in doing my research I'm aware that one can not always feel comfortable about the accuracy of eye witnesses seeing the flying monkeys.

The C8FE Boss 302 blocks have screw in "water plugs" as well, correct?

--- End quote ---

68countrysedan:

--- Quote ---Randy,
 The updated GT-40 FIA form dated 68? listed the 4,942 displacement addendum, including the 5.0L crank set (C8FE ??) and G-W heads shown in the supporting photos.
I thought that was to homologate the JWA-Gulf  G-W engine for 68 / 69 seasons??
Were the JWA-Gulf  G-W all dry-deck using the Cooper ring sealing system?
Did they use both 2 & 4 bolt mains block configuration?

Thanks for the details

--- End quote ---

According to JWAE chief engineer John Horsman, writing in his book Racing in the Rain, Coopers Mechanical Joints developed  a head sealing system. It consisted of a seperate compressible ring inconjunction with an Aero Permanite backing gasket sealing the water passages. Horsman also comments that combustion gasses entering the coolant was an Achilles' heel of the 289 when it was raced at Reims in 1964. As a side note, Horsman adds that in the 1965 season 289 engines continued failing. Ford's tear down report noted that the failures were a complete surprise. Head sealing issues were traced to head bolts stretching.

The ring was designed to fit in a 0.060-0.062-in deep groove machined in the deck face.

During the 1968 season, Ford engine department was working on head gasket failures. Engineer Don Sullivan, along with Don Coleman were involved. Water passenges were sealed off and external pipes carried coolant to the heads. This configuration was used on the Trans-Am cars.

According to Horsman, they put the arm on Wyer to use this system. For Watkins Glen, two engines were built. One had Cooper rings (number 67/18) and the other was dry-deck (number 67/11).

Horsman wasn't keen on the dry deck sealing noting that he had no gasket failures with the Gurney-Weslake heads with Cooper rings. Ironically a dry deck configuration was used in the 1968 Le Mans winning car. It was trouble free partly, he explains, because the race was run in September when it was cooler. Finally at the 1969 Daytona 24 Hours, both dry deck engine blocks cracked.


As for the main cap question, when Ford sold their interest in Ford Advanced Vehicles (which became JWAE) they included 50 Windsor blocks with four bolts on the 2-3-4 mains.

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