Author Topic: C8FE block  (Read 6006 times)

shelbydoug

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C8FE block
« on: August 07, 2021, 05:38:45 PM »
The casting ID on a 69 Boss 302 is C8FE.

Is this the same block that is run in the '40s running the Boss 302?

Are they the same castings?

Is there a difference between it and the C7FE block?
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camp upshur

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2021, 02:27:33 AM »
 
the C8's XE predecessor which I've see were similar save for the freeze plugs-see attached.
Boss powered GT-40s, in period?

shelbydoug

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2021, 06:31:57 AM »

the C8's XE predecessor which I've see were similar save for the freeze plugs-see attached.
Boss powered GT-40s, in period?

Yes. After the 67 racing season, the rules were changed to eliminate the 7 liter engine and reduce the maximum displacement allowed to 5 liters.

In '68, the GT40's were run with 5 liter Boss 302's and renamed "Gulf's" and run with the Gulf colors and "spoked" wheels.

While the 4 bolt 289 blocks previously were last cast as C7FE blocks and sourced from the racing program, the Boss blocks (in 68) were C8FE blocks.

I presume that these were also "trans-am racing blocks", like the '67s, but what I am asking is since the C8FE blocks were production blocks for the '69 Boss 302, is there a difference or are they still racing blocks?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 06:40:39 AM by shelbydoug »
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Royce Peterson

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2021, 10:48:36 AM »
The C8FE blocks were originally designed and cast as production 1968 tunnel port 302 blocks. When the tunnel port 302 production was cancelled lots of them were already cast. They ended up being used in early 1969 Boss 302 production.



the C8's XE predecessor which I've see were similar save for the freeze plugs-see attached.
Boss powered GT-40s, in period?

Yes. After the 67 racing season, the rules were changed to eliminate the 7 liter engine and reduce the maximum displacement allowed to 5 liters.

In '68, the GT40's were run with 5 liter Boss 302's and renamed "Gulf's" and run with the Gulf colors and "spoked" wheels.

While the 4 bolt 289 blocks previously were last cast as C7FE blocks and sourced from the racing program, the Boss blocks (in 68) were C8FE blocks.

I presume that these were also "trans-am racing blocks", like the '67s, but what I am asking is since the C8FE blocks were production blocks for the '69 Boss 302, is there a difference or are they still racing blocks?
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camp upshur

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2021, 12:02:13 PM »

The gulf cars ran inline valves on Gurney-Weslake heads. Never seen a period GT-40 w canted-valve Boss 302-yet.

shelbydoug

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2021, 12:49:20 PM »

The gulf cars ran inline valves on Gurney-Weslake heads. Never seen a period GT-40 w canted-valve Boss 302-yet.

I'm not the expert on GT40's. I'm going by what the press reported.

I am not disagreeing but I'd be surprised if the G-W heads could be homolagated as production heads?
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camp upshur

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2021, 01:00:50 PM »
 
Yes Gurney Heads are what they ran. Great SB Ford history there if you're ever killing time. Only car to will LeMans twice was GT40P-1075 - both wins Gurney Heads.

JohnSlack

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2021, 01:01:46 PM »
It's a much longer answer than I have time for right now, however the street C8FE vs. T/A C8FE vs. the Tunnelport C8FE differences are numerous and include metallurgy as well as physical differences. I have had all three.
John

propayne

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2021, 04:33:17 PM »

The gulf cars ran inline valves on Gurney-Weslake heads. Never seen a period GT-40 w canted-valve Boss 302-yet.

I'm not the expert on GT40's. I'm going by what the press reported.

I am not disagreeing but I'd be surprised if the G-W heads could be homolagated as production heads?

Gurney has stated in interviews that he wanted to run his heads on the BME TA Cougars. He did some testing and they made more power but Ford nixed it. It was one more nail in the coffin of his relationship with Ford.

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President, Delmarva Cougar Club - Brand Manager, Cougar Club of America

Royce Peterson

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2021, 06:27:48 PM »
Agree. No GT-40's with Boss 302 heads ever won anything or ran at LeMans.



The gulf cars ran inline valves on Gurney-Weslake heads. Never seen a period GT-40 w canted-valve Boss 302-yet.
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gt350hr

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2021, 11:06:39 AM »
   Doug ,
     "Technically" there is no such thing as a C7FE block ,period. here is the GT40 block "lineage".
    Early cars ( after the attempt at using the pushrod Indy engine) used conventional Hi Po 289 blocks. Durability issues led to the improved C6FE casting number , two bolt , "steel main cap" block. Continued durability issues led to a four bolt main ( steel caps) block built with SK or XE numbers ( both were built). These blocks all had conventional press in freeze plugs and were also used in '67 T/A engines with C6FE heads. The block was revised for an additional oil passage and given the C8FE casting number. This "general" casting number block saw MANY spur of the moment changes and with different machining programs was used for Tunnel Ports , '68 Indy use with Gurney heads in "dry sump" configuration . The block was carried over to '69 Boss 302 use in both T/A and "street" configuration with the "steel" main caps and "dry deck" or "wet deck" being the major difference. The C8FE block was also a favorite of the Formula 5000 race group. MANY C8FE blocks have additional SK numbers scratched into the bell housing areas. These indicate the various revisions for specific applications.
    There you have it.
       Randy
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shelbydoug

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2021, 01:18:32 PM »
   Doug ,
     "Technically" there is no such thing as a C7FE block ,period. here is the GT40 block "lineage".
    Early cars ( after the attempt at using the pushrod Indy engine) used conventional Hi Po 289 blocks. Durability issues led to the improved C6FE casting number , two bolt , "steel main cap" block. Continued durability issues led to a four bolt main ( steel caps) block built with SK or XE numbers ( both were built). These blocks all had conventional press in freeze plugs and were also used in '67 T/A engines with C6FE heads. The block was revised for an additional oil passage and given the C8FE casting number. This "general" casting number block saw MANY spur of the moment changes and with different machining programs was used for Tunnel Ports , '68 Indy use with Gurney heads in "dry sump" configuration . The block was carried over to '69 Boss 302 use in both T/A and "street" configuration with the "steel" main caps and "dry deck" or "wet deck" being the major difference. The C8FE block was also a favorite of the Formula 5000 race group. MANY C8FE blocks have additional SK numbers scratched into the bell housing areas. These indicate the various revisions for specific applications.
    There you have it.
       Randy


Well, I like having "it" BUT is the production '69 Boss 302 C8FE block a racing block or a non-racing block? Do the 69 B2 T/A cars use that block or another that you had to get out the back door but only if you knew the pass word?

There was also mention here of a metallurgy difference such as a higher nickle cast iron (I would presume higher nickel).

I've seen reference in writing to a C7FE block but have never seen one, just as I've seen reference to 68 and 69 GT40 Gulfs running Boss 302's.

Now I'm not claiming anything and in doing my research I'm aware that one can not always feel comfortable about the accuracy of eye witnesses seeing the flying monkeys.

The C8FE Boss 302 blocks have screw in "water plugs" as well, correct?
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6R07mi

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2021, 01:49:54 PM »
   Doug ,
     "Technically" there is no such thing as a C7FE block ,period. here is the GT40 block "lineage".
    Early cars ( after the attempt at using the pushrod Indy engine) used conventional Hi Po 289 blocks. Durability issues led to the improved C6FE casting number , two bolt , "steel main cap" block. Continued durability issues led to a four bolt main ( steel caps) block built with SK or XE numbers ( both were built). These blocks all had conventional press in freeze plugs and were also used in '67 T/A engines with C6FE heads. The block was revised for an additional oil passage and given the C8FE casting number. This "general" casting number block saw MANY spur of the moment changes and with different machining programs was used for Tunnel Ports , '68 Indy use with Gurney heads in "dry sump" configuration . The block was carried over to '69 Boss 302 use in both T/A and "street" configuration with the "steel" main caps and "dry deck" or "wet deck" being the major difference. The C8FE block was also a favorite of the Formula 5000 race group. MANY C8FE blocks have additional SK numbers scratched into the bell housing areas. These indicate the various revisions for specific applications.
    There you have it.
       Randy

Randy,
 The updated GT-40 FIA form dated 68? listed the 4,942 displacement addendum, including the 5.0L crank set (C8FE ??) and G-W heads shown in the supporting photos.
I thought that was to homologate the JWA-Gulf  G-W engine for 68 / 69 seasons??
Were the JWA-Gulf  G-W all dry-deck using the Cooper ring sealing system?
Did they use both 2 & 4 bolt mains block configuration?

Thanks for the details

jim p
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 02:17:55 PM by 6R07mi »
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Royce Peterson

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2021, 02:31:37 PM »
Years ago (more than twenty) I spoke to a retired metallurgist engineer who was supervisor at the Cleveland Ford foundry when he retired in the late 1990's. His response when I asked him about "High Nickel" Ford blocks was to say that anyone making such a claim didn't understand engine blocks or iron casting. Nickel is (he said) inevitable in iron ore. The amount varies. Too much and cutting tools start breaking. So part of his job was to test iron pours every hour, maintaining certain levels of nickel, phosphorous, and a host of other trace elements to a standard that met the design criteria for what was being made.

He did note that when high performance engine blocks were being cast the mix would often call for a higher level of chromium than was normally present in iron ore. To meet the design criteria would often require adding more bags of chromium to the iron heat.

We were specifically discussing 427 blocks but I suspect the Le Mans 302 engines would have received similar treatment.

Your question is also uninformed but deserves an answer so that you can become informed. The presence of a certain casting number would not tell everything or necessarily anything about the intended purpose. A C8FE block made for production would not be the same as a C8FE block intended for a LeMans or other race program. Production tooling was costly and the iron pour for production blocks would differ from what was used to make special race only engines that would likely be machined offsite. Simply looking at the casting number won't get you to any form of identification.




   Doug ,
     "Technically" there is no such thing as a C7FE block ,period. here is the GT40 block "lineage".
    Early cars ( after the attempt at using the pushrod Indy engine) used conventional Hi Po 289 blocks. Durability issues led to the improved C6FE casting number , two bolt , "steel main cap" block. Continued durability issues led to a four bolt main ( steel caps) block built with SK or XE numbers ( both were built). These blocks all had conventional press in freeze plugs and were also used in '67 T/A engines with C6FE heads. The block was revised for an additional oil passage and given the C8FE casting number. This "general" casting number block saw MANY spur of the moment changes and with different machining programs was used for Tunnel Ports , '68 Indy use with Gurney heads in "dry sump" configuration . The block was carried over to '69 Boss 302 use in both T/A and "street" configuration with the "steel" main caps and "dry deck" or "wet deck" being the major difference. The C8FE block was also a favorite of the Formula 5000 race group. MANY C8FE blocks have additional SK numbers scratched into the bell housing areas. These indicate the various revisions for specific applications.
    There you have it.
       Randy


Well, I like having "it" BUT is the production '69 Boss 302 C8FE block a racing block or a non-racing block? Do the 69 B2 T/A cars use that block or another that you had to get out the back door but only if you knew the pass word?

There was also mention here of a metallurgy difference such as a higher nickle cast iron (I would presume higher nickel).

I've seen reference in writing to a C7FE block but have never seen one, just as I've seen reference to 68 and 69 GT40 Gulfs running Boss 302's.

Now I'm not claiming anything and in doing my research I'm aware that one can not always feel comfortable about the accuracy of eye witnesses seeing the flying monkeys.

The C8FE Boss 302 blocks have screw in "water plugs" as well, correct?
1968 Cougar XR-7 GT-E 427 Side Oiler C6 3.50 Detroit Locker
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68countrysedan

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2021, 04:22:02 PM »
Quote
Randy,
 The updated GT-40 FIA form dated 68? listed the 4,942 displacement addendum, including the 5.0L crank set (C8FE ??) and G-W heads shown in the supporting photos.
I thought that was to homologate the JWA-Gulf  G-W engine for 68 / 69 seasons??
Were the JWA-Gulf  G-W all dry-deck using the Cooper ring sealing system?
Did they use both 2 & 4 bolt mains block configuration?

Thanks for the details

According to JWAE chief engineer John Horsman, writing in his book Racing in the Rain, Coopers Mechanical Joints developed  a head sealing system. It consisted of a seperate compressible ring inconjunction with an Aero Permanite backing gasket sealing the water passages. Horsman also comments that combustion gasses entering the coolant was an Achilles' heel of the 289 when it was raced at Reims in 1964. As a side note, Horsman adds that in the 1965 season 289 engines continued failing. Ford's tear down report noted that the failures were a complete surprise. Head sealing issues were traced to head bolts stretching.

The ring was designed to fit in a 0.060-0.062-in deep groove machined in the deck face.

During the 1968 season, Ford engine department was working on head gasket failures. Engineer Don Sullivan, along with Don Coleman were involved. Water passenges were sealed off and external pipes carried coolant to the heads. This configuration was used on the Trans-Am cars.

According to Horsman, they put the arm on Wyer to use this system. For Watkins Glen, two engines were built. One had Cooper rings (number 67/18) and the other was dry-deck (number 67/11).

Horsman wasn't keen on the dry deck sealing noting that he had no gasket failures with the Gurney-Weslake heads with Cooper rings. Ironically a dry deck configuration was used in the 1968 Le Mans winning car. It was trouble free partly, he explains, because the race was run in September when it was cooler. Finally at the 1969 Daytona 24 Hours, both dry deck engine blocks cracked.


As for the main cap question, when Ford sold their interest in Ford Advanced Vehicles (which became JWAE) they included 50 Windsor blocks with four bolts on the 2-3-4 mains.