Author Topic: C8FE block  (Read 6361 times)

shelbydoug

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2021, 01:01:41 PM »
I do believe that pictured block has a C8 or C9 casting ID in it? Even so, same blocks, just a different tag dropped in the mold at casting time.

I think I saw an aluminum D2AE-CA block but can't be sure since it was painted but the paint was peeling. It had big mamma steel caps on it.


This block was only available because it had a repair done to it in the lifter gallery.

I can't remember the name of the team in Michigan it came from but they were drag racers.

Never saw the SK heads for it nor were they ever mentioned as being available. Dyno Don had some and I think that you were the one that bought them from him?

The heads on it there are Motorsport B351 castings and the intake is a Hall "high port" intake.

I never liked those heads. I think the A3's run better.
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6R07mi

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2021, 01:12:11 PM »
   Doug ,
     "Technically" there is no such thing as a C7FE block ,period. here is the GT40 block "lineage".
    Early cars ( after the attempt at using the pushrod Indy engine) used conventional Hi Po 289 blocks. Durability issues led to the improved C6FE casting number , two bolt , "steel main cap" block. Continued durability issues led to a four bolt main ( steel caps) block built with SK or XE numbers ( both were built). These blocks all had conventional press in freeze plugs and were also used in '67 T/A engines with C6FE heads. The block was revised for an additional oil passage and given the C8FE casting number. This "general" casting number block saw MANY spur of the moment changes and with different machining programs was used for Tunnel Ports , '68 Indy use with Gurney heads in "dry sump" configuration . The block was carried over to '69 Boss 302 use in both T/A and "street" configuration with the "steel" main caps and "dry deck" or "wet deck" being the major difference. The C8FE block was also a favorite of the Formula 5000 race group. MANY C8FE blocks have additional SK numbers scratched into the bell housing areas. These indicate the various revisions for specific applications.
    There you have it.
       Randy

Randy,
 The updated GT-40 FIA form dated 68? listed the 4,942 displacement addendum, including the 5.0L crank set (C8FE ??) and G-W heads shown in the supporting photos.
I thought that was to homologate the JWA-Gulf  G-W engine for 68 / 69 seasons??
Were the JWA-Gulf  G-W all dry-deck using the Cooper ring sealing system?
Did they use both 2 & 4 bolt mains block configuration?

Thanks for the details

jim p

I found the FIA homologation form #224 for GT40, Group 4,
 the "68" addition for G-W 4,942 cc variant.

regards,

jim p
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 01:14:54 PM by 6R07mi »
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gt350hr

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2021, 03:17:43 PM »
    Doug,
        My aluminum block did come from Dyno Don as a complete engine. The block casting number and casting date is in the valley. It is dated 10-xx-68 like all of the others. The block casting is VERY different than an iron block. It has provisions for eight additional head bolts as do the heads. FYI "iron" core patterns can not be used for aluminum blocks OR heads as there is a different "shrinkage rate" in the two metals. Also there were NO aluminum Cleveland blocks cast after this ill fated Indy project , so a D2AE casting number is not possible. Cleveland main size blocks us a two bolt rear main cap. Oil pan to carbs , the engine weighed 385lbs according to the delta Airlines shipping information I got when I picked it up at LAX.
   Randy
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camp upshur

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2021, 03:25:05 PM »
6R07mi;

Thank you for posting/linking FIA #224. A wonderful reference document.

shelbydoug

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2021, 07:26:56 PM »
    Doug,
        My aluminum block did come from Dyno Don as a complete engine. The block casting number and casting date is in the valley. It is dated 10-xx-68 like all of the others. The block casting is VERY different than an iron block. It has provisions for eight additional head bolts as do the heads. FYI "iron" core patterns can not be used for aluminum blocks OR heads as there is a different "shrinkage rate" in the two metals. Also there were NO aluminum Cleveland blocks cast after this ill fated Indy project , so a D2AE casting number is not possible. Cleveland main size blocks us a two bolt rear main cap. Oil pan to carbs , the engine weighed 385lbs according to the delta Airlines shipping information I got when I picked it up at LAX.
   Randy

I had a discussion with John Vermersch basically about how many A331 Cleveland (Torker type) intakes he ordered. He said, one basic order of 100.

Now personally I've had three of them and Joe Lapine said 100 just isn't possible, he sold a lot.


Now while in discussion with Vermersch (and I discussed this with you as well if you remember) I asked about the "small port" A331 I had. The outside of it was from the same mold as the "regular A331's) but the port exists were the size of production 302 iron heads.

He said he didn't do it but said he thought he knew who did. He mentioned the "foundry" that was casting racing blocks for Ford Motorsport (at the time), now Ford Racing.


Now I don't need to mention the Pond 427 aluminum blocks being cast with C5 numbers do I? Lots of unsuspecting folks get fooled by them too.

First off, I think it WAS an aluminum D2AE-CA block and who says it was made by Ford? Not me. Someone playing in a NC sandbox perhaps? Amazing what comes outa' dem' hills sometimes?

The current aftermarket C blocks, both iron and aluminum are both cast with D2 id's. Ford has nothing to do with it. It's made by Todd Buttmore.


On the extra head bolt bosses, the picture that I posted clearly shows them. I'd ask you for a picture of the matching heads but I know you and cameras don't get along.  ;)


Here's the pictures of the aluminum D2AE-CA block. I would have gone with the thicker XE/NASCAR bulkheads, especially in aluminum, but whata' I know? Not much. I'm so "uninformed". :o
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 08:43:42 AM by shelbydoug »
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gt350hr

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2021, 10:17:33 AM »
     Yes the Tod Buttermore block used the D2AE casting number . I was talking about Ford manufactured blocks not aftermarket. The Buttermore block is now revised (many times) and being made by Tim Meyer ( Track Boss) . They are vastly improved over my SK block and cost FAR more too. Tim is also doing a compacted graphite material block.
    Again "Ford" only made one run of blocks.
    Randy
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shelbydoug

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2021, 12:12:15 PM »
     Yes the Tod Buttermore block used the D2AE casting number . I was talking about Ford manufactured blocks not aftermarket. The Buttermore block is now revised (many times) and being made by Tim Meyer ( Track Boss) . They are vastly improved over my SK block and cost FAR more too. Tim is also doing a compacted graphite material block.
    Again "Ford" only made one run of blocks.
    Randy

They were $2300 when Buttmore had them. Meyer doubled that.

I don't recall seeing the Meyer version. I'm not sure that he ever posted any updated ones? I would hope that he thickened the bulkheads?

I'm not arguing Randy but considering how many foundry changes and suppliers were involved all along, I'm not sure that Ford did the castings on all of these engines or just sub'ed that out?

Certainly it appears that the machining was done by subs on many of them like the 427 blocks?

So to me, it becomes semantics.


I remember Shelby making a comment about the Daytona Coupes being done in Italy.

He was being criticized that they weren't really Cobras because of that. He said something like Ferrari's being built somewhere else then Ferrari and they were still Ferrari's.


Exactly how a C8FE block was completed was not exactly what my question was although it is pertinent to the discussion. They all APPEAR to have the same basic origins in the same molten cauldron.

Not that I have ever come across one, but I would have been interested in a 4.110 aluminum version for sure.

Thank you for your input though. I can't think of a more knowledgeable helpful person on these subjects.
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gt350hr

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2021, 03:04:41 PM »
    Thanks Doug,
      The Ford SK aluminum block was cast at Ford's prototype foundry in Detroit. Not an outside vendor like the later Ford Motorsport offerings. They were machined by Ford as well. Ford did sub out "some" work to Paramount Bore and these parts usually have a steel stamped PB in an oval on the part. Boss 302T/A heads were done there and have the stamp. The infamous Canadian CJ heads were done by Paramount Bore as well.
   The Buttermore block had refined bulk heads and T Meyer's block has been further refined and strengthened. It is IMHO the ultimate C block. Mark McKeown sis a run of aluminum blocks but his facility burned down and production has not resumed yet. It is a nice aluminum block as well.
    I have spent a ridiculous amount of time researching all this old SK stuff because of my own curiosity. Finding some of the original engineers still around put everything into perspective. MANY things were tried that have never seen the light of day.
   It is a disease for me.
     Randy
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Coralsnake

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2021, 03:07:52 PM »
That is my definition of dedication and enthusiasm

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gt350hr

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2021, 03:30:54 PM »
   I walk in your shadow Peter , thank you for the compliment.
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TA Coupe

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2021, 04:33:19 PM »
Quote from Doug

"Now while in discussion with Vermersch (and I discussed this with you as well if you remember) I asked about the "small port" A331 I had. The outside of it was from the same mold as the "regular A331's) but the port exists were the size of production 302 iron heads"

Maybe the small port intake was designed to be used with a set of heads like the one in this picture with the Windsor style port. I have a set of them on my small block in my Mustang with a 2x4 TA intake.
Since we were discussing main caps I thought I would throw in a picture of an unmachined one also.

       Roy

gt350hr

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2021, 05:01:00 PM »
   Roy ,
       It's interesting to see the "Brinell hardness test mark" in the 1st picture of the main cap. While present in the ''raw casting" it is removed when the cap is rough machined. It shows the caps were all tested for nodularity.
    I will as we discussed  at Sonoma , send you the intra company information on your "proposed - low cost" , '70 Boss heads. I have only heard of ONE other pair. That head would have REALLY been a hit "if" Ford had released it.
    Randy
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TA Coupe

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2021, 07:06:58 PM »
Randy, I was going to point out the brinell dot but I thought I'd see if anyone would catch it, should have known you would.
I talked to Vic a few times trying to convince him to make them with no luck. Different pistons and exhaust and you would have had a great combination back in the day 😀
It was great seeing you and Carol at SAAC. I got to thinking later that you, Richard,Jack and I have known each other for about 45 years. Some of the longest relationships I've had.

  Take care and be safe Roy

shelbydoug

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2021, 07:37:53 PM »
Quote from Doug

"Now while in discussion with Vermersch (and I discussed this with you as well if you remember) I asked about the "small port" A331 I had. The outside of it was from the same mold as the "regular A331's) but the port exists were the size of production 302 iron heads"

Maybe the small port intake was designed to be used with a set of heads like the one in this picture with the Windsor style port. I have a set of them on my small block in my Mustang with a 2x4 TA intake.
Since we were discussing main caps I thought I would throw in a picture of an unmachined one also.

       Roy

Yes they look like Windsor size ports but the only point would be to make a 9.2 Windsor/Cleveland hybrid. What's the point.

I think it more practical for someone who wanted to port match B302 Motorsport heads on a Cleveland? Actually I traded it away and that was the intention of the recipient as I was told.
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6R07mi

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Re: C8FE block
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2021, 09:26:42 PM »
I found these photos online,
I don't know if the block has any crossover with JWA Gulf engine ??
#1 ID'd as 1968 AAR Gurney Eagle
#2 & 3 1968 Sebring JWA Gulf
#4 302 TP

regards

jim p
Former owner 6S283, 70 "Boss351", 66 GT 6F07, 67 FB GT
current: 66 GT former day 2 track car 6R07
20+ yrs Ford Parts Mgr, now Meritor Defense