Author Topic: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.  (Read 1759 times)

Snakebite

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HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« on: October 11, 2021, 09:26:21 AM »
     I am negotiating on the purchase of a 1967 GT500 (automatic) with 21,xxx supposedly documented original miles.  Current owner has extensive documentation dating back to 1988 including mileages at oil changes, parts replaced, etc.  Here are my concerns:
     1)  Car was originally sold in GA and then was in TX.  The car was stripped to bare metal/fiberglass and repainted in original colors in 1989, when it was only 22 years old.  There is no documentation as to why this was done.  Accident?  Paint fade due to Texas sun/heat?
     2)  No documentation of engine having been replaced.  However, casting date on C6ME-A block is 6G12, which seems too early for a 1967 car.  Especially a 1967 that is not an early car.  From what I have read, most casting dates were within a month or two of the build date.
     3)  Heads are C8AE-H.  From my research, it appears that these could be from basically any non-high performance 428 or possibly from a 1968 Shelby application.
     4)  Distributor is a C80F.  My research shows this is a 1968 part.
     5)  Carbs are correct C3AF-9510-BJ and non-correct C3AE-9510-BK.
     6)  I am familiar with the Shelby registry but am unsure if this car is in the registry and how I would gain access to the registry information.

     I have been a Shelby fan my entire life and have several Mustangs, including a 1969 GT500.  However, this car would be a major investment and I don't want to commit to purchase without some advice from people who know a lot more about these cars than me.  Thanks in advance for your help!
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SFM5S159

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2021, 09:33:33 AM »
Do you have a Marti Report for the car?  What is the Ford production date? 

JD

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2021, 09:36:46 AM »
if you haven't yet contacted Dave Mathews the SAAC '67 Registrar then do that first.

dmathews@prodigy.net

Repainting at low mileage/time frame was not unusual as some colors faded badly-quickly (such as Lime Gold and Brittany Blue).


PM sent too...

« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 10:06:12 AM by JD »
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Snakebite

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2021, 10:26:26 AM »
Contacting the current owner now to see if he has the Marti report or car build date.
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Bob Gaines

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2021, 10:43:13 AM »
22 years was a long time for one of those cars to wear original paint relative to the big picture. It was not uncommon to do a paint job after 5 or 6 years for sixties built cars . Fading and oxidation problems of certain colors because of less evolved paint formulas of the day was the main reason .   
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oldcanuck

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2021, 06:40:36 AM »
22 years was a long time for one of those cars to wear original paint relative to the big picture. It was not uncommon to do a paint job after 5 or 6 years for sixties built cars . Fading and oxidation problems of certain colors because of less evolved paint formulas of the day was the main reason .

+1 especially residing in the sun and heat of GA and TX.....
Bob
Knoxvegas, TN

shelbydoug

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2021, 07:42:59 AM »
A first repaint at about five years is typical of what I saw back in the day.

On a '67 Shelby you had a mix of paint. Acrylic laquer on the fiberglass and acrylic enamel on the original body.

The laquer typically was thin and easily would polish through and often would just flake off.

The enamel was also thin, easily polish through and irregardless of the color, would dull down. I'm not shocked at a five year repaint. I'd expect it.


There isn't any way the engine can be represented as original with the engine casting numbers that you have provided. I'd go further with concerns and want to see that the block is an A scratch 428 and not a 390.

Asking for "high performance" 428 heads in '67 is asking for something that does not exist. They are PI heads for whatever that is worth. Those are hardly high performance heads.


You are missing some expensive parts for the engine should you decide you want the original date coded production line parts. That is a point of negotiation as is a missing SPEC rear carrier which you haven't mentioned.


I'd heed Mr.Gaines suggestion that unless you are going to seriously compete in Div I concourse or Thoroughbred, consider altering course on perfect date coded production line parts and just use what knowledgeable people expect to see.

To find a completely original car at this point is chasing a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Even highly correct, "high point" cars are rarely if EVER original.
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Snakebite

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2021, 09:39:19 PM »
How can I tell if it is an A scratch 428 or a 390 block?
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Wedgeman

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2021, 12:51:26 AM »
To know for sure about it being a 428 PI A scratch block, you would have to do one of 2 things... easiest would be to remove the inspection plate & see if that original 428 flexplate is present, but even then that is no guarantee that the rotating assembly wasn't  installed into a punched out 390 block...2nd choice is to pull the C6 back & remove the flexplate  to see that  A scratch .  6G12 (July 66) date code on the block seems WAY to early for a GT500. The earliest cars were built in late 66-early 67.... the C8AE-H heads ( are they smog heads? )  are doubtful even for a late build. Distributor should be a C5AF-E with no vacuum advance.Hope this helps... :)


shelbydoug

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2021, 08:07:27 AM »
It is very simple to identify it as a 428. It has a big A on the block IF it is a 428.

They are all C6ME-A blocks. The 390's have no scratch. The CJ's use a C block. The PI's the A. They all look the same except for the scratch mark.

Some 390's can be bored out to the 4.13 428 bore. Some can not.



The GT500's are date coded differently then the GT350's. The 500's engines are in the 10 to 14 days before the car build and have nothing to do with the Shelby completion dates.


There IS some confusion TO ME on the later builds in that I have seen some C8 engineering numbers with first half of '67 casting dates. No one has been able to SATISFACTORILY explain that as of yet.

Some of the judges here will say emphatically, NO WAY, they were NEVER INSTALLED on the 428PI engines, but I do have some documentation on that they do exist (got the parts) and considering how just pallets of parts being delivered to the engine assembly plant happened, those judges CAN'T prove they were never installed on the 428PI's so I wouldn't automatically dismiss them as wrong.


I've got a C8 timing chain cover AND oil filter adapter with a 2/67 casting dates. Now logic would say that the 428PI uses the big C6 427 balancer and the pointer that matches it only fits on the C3 cover.

I can't disagree with that logic BUT logic doesn't make that correct, or prove anything. That is just "educated speculation" until further notice. ;)

So good luck on assembling your engine without controversy of some sort along the way. There is NO BIBLE on that procedure.


Oh...you might notice NO chassis stamping ID on the "pad" in this picture. It's my block.

Kinda' typical of '67 GT500's, 428's in general and not typical of GT350's. I'm guessing the 428 assembly crew was in rebellion against the stamping mandates similar to the anti-vac folks are today?  ;D

Some people question whether or not "late '67 GT500 blocks" exist because they can't find any. Sure they do. Here's one. They just are not very common but then neither are A scratch blocks.



Don't mind me. Controversy is sometimes good. Just think of me as Captain Kaos.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 08:03:55 PM by shelbydoug »
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Royce Peterson

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2021, 10:56:14 AM »
Easy. Look at the date code on the block. Ford made every 428 block with the "A" scratch through about the end of June 1967. If the casting date is July 1967 or later it is going to be a "C" scratch. (there could be some changeover castings in the area of June 1967 - July 1967 but I have not seen one)

There was no special block cast for 1968 Shelbys or PI's or CJ's. All of them were identical, from the 428 Shelby GT500 in 1968, a 1968 Ford Galaxie 428 cop car, or granny's 1968 428 Colony Park wagon. Anyone who believes differently is misinformed.


How can I tell if it is an A scratch 428 or a 390 block?
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Snakebite

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2021, 04:50:50 PM »
Casting date on the C6ME-A block is 6G12, so it be July 12, 1966.
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shelbydoug

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2021, 05:14:47 PM »
Casting date on the C6ME-A block is 6G12, so it be July 12, 1966.

It is too early to be for a '67 GT500. November-December '66 would be around the earliest. Shelby production started late, around mid November.

It has to have an A scratch to be a 428. If it has no scratch it's a 390.


You can't tell if it is a 428 or 390 from the casting date. A 428 will have an A before July '67 and a C after. A 390 will have nothing.
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Richstang

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2021, 07:52:23 PM »
I believe Doug and Royce are correct, July '66 is too early.

Production didn't really start moving forward at Ford's San Jose plate until around Nov 30th, 1966.
Only the first three red GT500's were built before that date, in early November.
Definitely nothing before that, so July seems far too early for the 'Special Interceptor 428 blocks at the engine plant.
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Snakebite

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Re: HELP--Date and casting codes on 1967 GT500.
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2021, 08:37:14 PM »
Thanks for the replies everyone, but it is now a non-issue.  I had a refundable deposit down on the car and was supposed to inspect it on the 23rd, but the seller sold it to a buyer who wired the money sight unseen.  Judging by all of the questions about the car, it might be for the best.  Now, back to the search for a 66 GT350 or a 67 GT500.  Thanks again for all of the help, very informative and I appreciate your help and expertise.
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