Author Topic: Choke heat riser for 427  (Read 4480 times)

Dan Case

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2018, 02:59:28 PM »
Dan it is entirely possible that the "universal" over the counter kit was used because of the low volume nature on this engine combination. A 427 Cobra with a single four , cast iron manifolds and rear exit exhaust is pretty rare! Obviously the 428 is more common , but still a small number.

SAI sourced all kinds of parts locally on their own from day one with CSX2000 in Dean Moon's shop. The 'stuff' sourced locally is the hardest to find now especially items that were custom ordered or sourced from small manufacturing companies that didn't survive past the 1970s.

The whole engine "thing" was a string of "rare" combinations.  CSX32xx and CSX33xx cars did not get as many SAI changes or additions to engines as received from Ford as CSX31xx cars did. That doesn’t mean parts for the 4V fitted engines are easy to find.

Most CSX32xx and CSX3301, received 1966 428 PI engines for manual transmissions to which SAI added some 427 Cobra only goodies.  Rare doesn’t describe some parts for those engines as manual transmission hot rod police cars must not have been real common.   

I have not heard of a CSX32xx car getting any but during the CSX31xx time frame SAI did offer a under chassis header system. CSX3141 was fitted with a set and an automatic transmission so the headers were probably just barely squeezed in.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 03:03:58 PM by Dan Case »
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

gt350hr

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2018, 05:13:07 PM »
    Dan , I totally agree. Cobra builds were exactly "uniform". Being a local I also know what you mean about parts substitution of non critical components on them.
     Randy
Celebrating 46 years of drag racing 6S477 and no end in sight.

CSX 4133

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2018, 11:31:40 AM »

Found this product which closely resembles the insulated sleeving found on the heat riser.


https://www.electriduct.com/Vectran-Braided-Sleeving.html
~Steven

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Dmxf

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2018, 02:19:57 PM »
The choke tube and cover are not listed in the Bill of Material for things added in LA, so while not a guarantee it's an indicator that they may have come with the engines from Ford

Dmxf

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2018, 08:27:12 PM »
A choke tube, probably with the cover, is shown in the May '65 listing of the things SA had on the shelf. The part number is C30E-9820-A, which I can't find in the Ford MPC's. I suspect it's an engineering number. Unfortunately it wasn't always clear whether a given part listed was used on a small block or big block Cobra or GT350. The part number is a clue, but for example a small block affiliated item may have been used on a 427 Cobra.

The cover on the choke tube on my engine is supposed to be an old NOS Fomoco part (wasn't in a package) and I'm pretty sure it's exactly what came on the cars by comparison to detailed period photos and survivor images. I've been under the belief that the visual difference between some "genuine" Ford covers you may find and what was used in '65 is due to a change in material, as the '65 items were made with asbestos.

Bob Gaines

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2018, 10:55:44 PM »
A choke tube, probably with the cover, is shown in the May '65 listing of the things SA had on the shelf. The part number is C30E-9820-A, which I can't find in the Ford MPC's. I suspect it's an engineering number. Unfortunately it wasn't always clear whether a given part listed was used on a small block or big block Cobra or GT350. The part number is a clue, but for example a small block affiliated item may have been used on a 427 Cobra.

The cover on the choke tube on my engine is supposed to be an old NOS Fomoco part (wasn't in a package) and I'm pretty sure it's exactly what came on the cars by comparison to detailed period photos and survivor images. I've been under the belief that the visual difference between some "genuine" Ford covers you may find and what was used in '65 is due to a change in material, as the '65 items were made with asbestos.
You may be using your example for other things besides the choke but just in case you weren't I wanted to remind that the 65 and 66 GT350 as well as the 65/66 Hipo Mustang did not have a choke tube.
Bob Gaines,Shelby Enthusiast, Shelby Collector , Shelby Concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

shelbydoug

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2018, 07:52:03 AM »
A choke tube, probably with the cover, is shown in the May '65 listing of the things SA had on the shelf. The part number is C30E-9820-A, which I can't find in the Ford MPC's. I suspect it's an engineering number. Unfortunately it wasn't always clear whether a given part listed was used on a small block or big block Cobra or GT350. The part number is a clue, but for example a small block affiliated item may have been used on a 427 Cobra.

The cover on the choke tube on my engine is supposed to be an old NOS Fomoco part (wasn't in a package) and I'm pretty sure it's exactly what came on the cars by comparison to detailed period photos and survivor images. I've been under the belief that the visual difference between some "genuine" Ford covers you may find and what was used in '65 is due to a change in material, as the '65 items were made with asbestos.
You may be using your example for other things besides the choke but just in case you weren't I wanted to remind that the 65 and 66 GT350 as well as the 65/66 Hipo Mustang did not have a choke tube.

The fact is that it isn't needed functionally.

Dan Case

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2018, 10:00:46 AM »
For historical accuracy, beware of using the 1965 and 1966 (published in 1965 and 1966) Shelby American service parts books for Cobra and 427 Cobra repairs or restorations. The books are not 'here is what we "as built" the cars with' set of references. The books are service part books. Many of  the parts listed are just things that will do the job. Many of the parts for early Cobras are not listed at all.

They also do not include a lot of the small parts SA sourced or made on their own locally without going through Ford or AC Cars.

Also, beware that for Cobras for sure the AC Cars chassis manuals also includes service parts that were different that what was used in production. I have even found an omission, i.e. a part used in new Cobras not shown in the drawing in the manual or parts list.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 10:34:18 AM by Dan Case »
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Dmxf

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2018, 10:24:32 AM »
Partially service parts, yes. Years ago I spoke with the guy who put that blue cover book together, and several subsequent ones. He had just started at SA and was asked to put together a parts catalog. Not knowing a lot about the cars at that point, a large part of what he did was to include things that he found on the shelves. That means there could possibly have even  been items they tried/played around with and never used. Some things SA had around were US sourced replacements for parts originally fitted to the cars in the UK, but others were items that they were installing on the cars for the first time. There probably weren't many items shown for very early cars in part because they weren't putting that configuration car together anymore, so didn't have many parts left around.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 10:34:15 AM by Dmxf »

Dmxf

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2018, 10:43:42 AM »
Also, beware that for Cobras for sure the AC Cars chassis manuals also includes service parts that were different that what was used in production. I have even found an omission, i.e. a part used in new Cobras not shown in the drawing in the manual or parts list.

In the 427 Chassis Manual I recall they list a Lucas motor for the radiator cooling fan, so I know what you mean. Determining what is correct on any part for a given car range can be a complex process often because good evidence (as-delivered old photos of the subject areas or survivor cars with that area unmolested) is often sparse

PhilS

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2018, 04:32:11 PM »
When I decided to un S/C my car I began looking for parts including exhaust manifolds. I found some but the owners would not sell. I finally bought a pair of repros from Legendary in Canada. They look good but don't have a drilled port for the choke stove. The 66 and 67 Ford part for 427s is at least an inch too long maybe more. I don't know where SA got these manifolds to begin with. I've been told they may be an industrial piece but if they were cast without the choke port then it seems SA would have to drill them and find a source for the choke stove. I suppose they could have modified an existing piece but seems like a lot of extra time on such a small piece. The pics I have and have been shared with me look very similar to the Ford part although I can only see the nut end and not the portion that drops into the manifold. The Ford parts are available as repros and I will probably just modify one but thought it would be nice to find the right one. Thanks for all the comments and help.

Dmxf

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2018, 04:49:52 PM »
Phil - SA documentation shows the manifolds came from AC Cars. I've also kept an eye out for decades for anything Ford may have made and have not seen anything that matches. It appears they were not included with each car, as there is a reference at one point of having an order with AC for 200 of them. Indications are the choke fitting came in the manifolds. Some of the aftermarket fittings out there look pretty good
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 07:59:17 PM by Dmxf »

PhilS

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2018, 05:36:50 PM »
Good information, thanks Mike.

Dan Case

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2018, 07:33:17 PM »
The images I have seen of unmolested used 427 Cobra cast iron exhaust manifolds show a AC Cars part number cast into them. AC Cars supplied the cast iron two branch exhaust manifolds for HP289 engines in Cobras.
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

PhilS

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Re: Choke heat riser for 427
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2018, 04:53:39 PM »
Dan Case,
Does this suggest the entire exhaust system was supplied by AC?