Author Topic: Shelby Buildings - Princeton Drive 1042 ( New 26.12.19 - 64 Galaxie 427 befor )  (Read 3285 times)

Szabo

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Hello,

have you seen the skeetches in the other Thread ???
This are amazing for my Research Work ...

Nearly a Week with 12 Hours per Day i spending time to make an overview from Outside
and Inside from Princeton, overflowing from the Carter and even LAX Pics and the
knowledge that only a few People knowing something, but no person knows it all...

I am unsure if it is okay to make an own Thread, but i think i have some more Infos and
Photo analysed and so i will not spam the other thread...

For me both Thread have a reason to beeing in the Forum.

What do you think, what thinks the admins ?



But for First time lets start a Walk around Tour in the outside section


Fortunaly the Building are still exist and so, with help of Google Earth i can make some
Bird View Pics, Note: many things in Front and Backside are not like in the past days
but i will explain that pic by pic

Frontside and the Sidewall with 5 Windows in a row..


Backside of the Building with parking lot


Next Step we just walk from left to right Side in the Frondside.
Note: at the left Side there where no Windows, just a large Brick Wall


Frontside Pic
Note: the large center Window, the Door and the Garage door are
naturally modified over the years...


right Side show the little Street between 1042 and 1040 to the backside
of the Building


Backside is ar rare one with lot of Details to make Photo analyses
Note:  a little Door from Inside to backside
and even more important: 3 larger Windwos, each 8 Frames wide, 3 Frame high
the Windows are Barried ... NO Garage at backside !!!



But enough for present Pics, lets just call the DeLoran Time Machine from Back to the Future and
jump around 1960 - 1965  :o


First Pic we see from Carter Building Parking Lot to Princeton Building, often see the other way round...


Second one is most of the famous Pics from Princeton, Steve McQueen Visit in 1963, even with these
lovley Econoline Truck and notice this Van at the Garage door corner left side...


third is the Backside with the Shelby Hauler Truck , Richstangs ask in his Thread where the Truck stands.
Answer: Right here in the Backside, look at the Window Frames ...
when you looked at the other Pics from this Point in Time, this Truck just bring the FlippedHood Cobra
to Princeton Drive for Nassau Speed Week, and not to stand in front aera he is just parked behind

Edith: it is proofed that the Cab NOT standing behind Princeton Drive 1042, maybe at the parking lot
from 1040



Last Pic shown for today ist the first Pic inside, right from the Garage into the Building:
Note some very interesset Details in a Point of Time where knowone has these Famous Skeetch from the other thread:

so what we see for future Post looking even mor into the Inside of the Building:
- very early Pic from Cobra Production

- the posts working platform stands behind are shown in the Carter Building
Thread inside when there was the Cobra Production...
in later Pics we will see there are no more Post working platform at this
time


-most struggeling Detail for me (without knowing the Skeetch )
there is a Wall right backside, no bricket wall, a sliding door as well
but NO Windows at this Wall !!! but the Door exit on right side is open,
see some tires on a Rack and even on top some other stuff
-Poster from 10 Years Goodyear, we will see that later in other Pics



So what you think about that

Greets

Steve
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 04:25:35 AM by Szabo »

Side-Oilers

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Re: Shelby Buildings - Princeton Drive 1042 --- Outside Walk around
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2019, 04:22:07 PM »
Great job, Steve...keep going!!
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Richstang

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Re: Shelby Buildings - Princeton Drive 1042 --- Outside Walk around
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2019, 05:00:09 PM »
Steve,

This is a relevant topic to the Shelby American history so no need to worry if it is ok or not.
These are nice Google Earth current views with the angle looking down over the entire area.

Looking at this Diesel cab photo, I have decided it is most likely behind the 1040-1038 building, not Shelby American's 1042 Princeton drive building.
Here's why;
-1042 is not as wide as what we see in the photo. If it were 1042, we would see less windows and a gap for the alley way.
-I also do not think the cab is blocking the alley way. If it was, we would see more width to the building on the left as 1040-1038 is a much wider building.
-It does not appear have any matching features to the Carter Avenue building (such as the window placement, telephone/utility poles, etc)


Szabo

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Re: Shelby Buildings - Princeton Drive 1042 --- Outside Walk around
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2019, 05:13:53 PM »
Hmm interessting arguments, good Eye for Details  :o

When i saw the pic i only wondering about this Tree on the left corner side...

The other arguments i am not so "Hard" seeing on this point...
For sure it stands in the backyard of a garage :-D

But i will do a little resarch of that...

Side-Oilers

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Re: Shelby Buildings - Princeton Drive 1042 --- Outside Walk around
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2019, 01:54:29 PM »
Notice that the address painted on the door of the cab is 6501 Imperial.

Do we know how long the cross-over time was when Shelby had Princeton & Carter and was moving into Imperial?  That would help signify the date.

I'm wondering if this pix could be at Carter?  Agree with Rich that it's not the back of 1042 Princeton.
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Richstang

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Re: Shelby Buildings - Princeton Drive 1042 --- Outside Walk around
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2019, 02:08:45 PM »
Notice that the address painted on the door of the cab is 6501 Imperial.

Do we know how long the cross-over time was when Shelby had Princeton & Carter and was moving into Imperial?  That would help signify the date.

I'm wondering if this pix could be at Carter?  Agree with Rich that it's not the back of 1042 Princeton.

I believe the overlapping from Venice and LAX would be about late April / early May 1965.
We know the first batch of '65 GT350 R's were delivered to Venice on April 10th and the open house at LAX was June 7-8th.

EDIT: a Photo of the cab from May 9th at Laguna Seca appears to also have the 'W. Imperial' address on the cab doors.

I don't see anywhere that Cab could be parked at the Carter building, so I am really feeling strong on it behind 1040-1038 Princeton building.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 02:17:27 PM by Richstang »

Side-Oilers

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Re: Shelby Buildings - Princeton Drive 1042 --- Outside Walk around
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2019, 02:18:38 PM »
OK, makes sense that the cab is behind 1040-1038 Princeton.  Just wanted to check. 

For another detective hunt, we could try and find out who was renting 1040-38 while Shelby had 1042.

I asked previously if we know for sure who the owner of Princeton and Carter buildings was. 

Was it Reventlow, or did he merely sublet to Shelby?

I'm still thinking about the "newer red bricks" seen on parts of the buildings.  Seems to make sense to me that Princeton and Carter were at built (and modified) by the same owner in a similar time-frame.
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Richstang

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Re: Shelby Buildings - Princeton Drive 1042 --- Outside Walk around
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2019, 02:37:31 PM »
I've never heard a owner or business name mentioned for 1040-1038 Princeton building. (It certainly appears to be the same builder and / or renovator with the upper 2 floor offices)

I've been looking into Lance Reventlow for a number of reasons.
All indicators are that he owned and occupied 1042 Princeton from '60-'62 and then leased it to Shelby in Aug /Sept '62.
Nothing is ever mentioned about the Carter Ave building, so that is still an unknown in every way.

If Princeton was built new in '59 then who leased it the first year, or did Reventlow buy it as the first occupant from the builder?
Lots of tedious questions that remain unanswered.

Szabo

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Re: Shelby Buildings - Princeton Drive 1042 --- Outside Walk around
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2019, 05:37:32 PM »
Hello,

lotīs of Thoughs and opinions , i loved that, keeps the Thread alive ...

I agreed with you that the Cab no stands behind 1042 ... i will removed that from Thread
but i already think it stands behind the Princeton Buildings, because when it is too close
for front parking, they parking at the next best place, and even the Photographer (Friedman)
not runs Miles to do such Pic, they make it right at the Moment when it comes too the Scene.

Speeking about Time ...

I seriously have a problem to find Time Codes at alle the Pics ... i must mixed Pics from all
Times to look in every angle of the Building.
Note that when you looked at the Walk Around Tours.

and second Not; at the point where i made this already i have know clue about
these Shelby Skeetch, i just try it at my own to get all the pics in right order.

And so i go on to Part Two of the Princeton Drive 1042 with the first Inside View...

Enjoy it and share your Thougts, i done my best to make it entertainment.


First we make a step into the Shop, right Behind the garage, turn around and see outside
of the Garage door...

Notice: Look at the Sliding Door to right inner section wall
and even the Ventilator on the right corner, hanging on the roof ...


than we go some steps backside, still seeing out of the Garage door.
we see some working Table on the Brick Wall, there is almost
place for two Rows of Cars side to side.


You must spin around to the inner side and see right behind
the Wood Mold Daytona

you see that the Door is open, but even you can looked to a another
Window ( note the contrast to the last Pic in my Post befor),
this means that the Sliding door was open...


Then we walked right to the End of the Shop, see the openend
sliding door and even the Tire Rack from last Pic in last Post,
notice the Text on the Wall which is important for later Pics and
where you stand in the Shop
The inside right Side with the Brick Wall with Windows are already done,
count the Windwos, it must be 5... when you get out of the door, you
can to backside of Building


BIG QUESTION at this Point of my Resarch . ... what was at left side, just around the Corner ...

Well, turn you again and the right on the Edge of the inner section Wall...

This was a very surprising Pic i saw ... and even a time travelling point at the Pics befor with lot more of People and Cars in the Shop.
we saw the last Pic from Last post with the very early Cobra prodution line (not an Cobra expert but Series 1, small bodies)
and the working post station...

At this Point when you see the first Daytona Woodframe with some Metal on it, the hole Shop Aera are very clean,
no more post working station, even no more Cars, just this huge machine ( i think Bending machine) a single man and the Woodframe Daytona

Note for later Pics, look at the Sticker in right side with standing "NO ADMITTANCE"



next Pic is right the opposite of the clearly Shop Area ...
Lot of Wireing, Parts, cabels, even it looks a little bit messy.
note the big Bending Machine standing there again



At this Point i like to make a full view in the Area behind the Corner ...
when you looked behind the Daytona you will notice the Brick Wall with these Text on the Wall,
also right at the End of the Shop, not so surprising at the Moment of the tour


But now we stand right behind the Daytona Coupe and look at that (i was really surprised when i saw it first)
there is a little bit of "Working Office" Building in the Building ...
you still see the "NO ADMITTANCE" Sticker on the Door of the section Wall...
Fun Fact: Note the hanged up Jacket.
(Pic at the same Time Code like the pic befor)



when you stand right behind the Daytona you can see left the little "Working Office",

in the middle the closed brick Wall what mean you look at the
end of the Body Shop or nearly of the left Side of the Building (looked at the First Pics from my first post)

and on the right to the inner section Wall


with a better view of the right side to the inner section wall, we can see and open Door...



... and with these Pics i just finished for Today, later i will make modified skeetch what we see and proofed
know at this Time of the Tour.

I will finished with 2 Questions (without knowing the hole Skeetching at this time of Research

- What was behind the "Working Office", because there is some distance to the inner Brick Wall

- What was behind the Door at the right side


Greets Steve


Edith:

the skeetch drawing ... thatīs we stand after todays photo excurse

« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 07:57:33 PM by Szabo »

Richstang

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Steve,

You have picked some really good photos that help sort out and show the location of these main working areas of the Princeton shop. You may be the first person who has ever analyzed this building down to this level of detail before (and put them into words within a single thread). I honestly was not entirely sure what was going on in there, and haven't taken the time needed to analyze this myself.

To try and answer your questions;
-I think the 'working office' may be slightly further back towards the side brick wall from where you are showing it. (Farther away from the main driveway.)
Their should be a hall way somewhere in the center of that wall to the front of the building. It could be directly behind it. I need to see more photos of that area to be certain. (We can see the hall way in Allen Grant's floor plans).

Allen's floor plans may have been changed from paper to actuality or just off a bit in scale and positions. Certainly the windows don't look to match what is shown in the period photos (they are wider and spaced differently). Your sketch shows an accurate location for the sliding door along that back wall (visible when looking down the main area from the garage door opening. I'm still trying to figure out what is behind that sliding door and what is next to the corner outside exit door.

-The other door in the back corner of the fabrication work area (not a sliding door) probably enters the engine room at the very back of the building.

Side-Oilers

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Great job on the newly posted photos and info!

Since we have the ability to now see perspective within the shop area, I'm wondering what was behind the "No Admittance" sign?

My guess is small storage area (closet) for tools belonging/responsible to the man operating the metal shaping machine, or to S-A itself.

Other thoughts?
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Richstang

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In the Allen Grant floor plans sketch it indicates behind those 'No Admittance' double doors sign was storage.
I'm trying to find a decent photo of the area, but it's proving difficult to be certain what it looks like.


Here's a photo of the Fab Shop area from when it was under the Reventlow Automobiles Inc. ownership.
This photo was found on HotRod.com's website and noted as taken in July 1962 not long before CS leased the building.
It looks very empty compared to the Shelby American Inc. photos. I wish we could see more of what was happening in and around there at that time.

 

Side-Oilers

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Great find.  Is that bus in the background painted similarly to the one we've seen in back of Carter Ave? 
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Szabo

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Hello,

on Part 3 we will have a closer look to the Area behind this "Working Office" and in Part 4 that what i called "Engine / Dyno Run"

Let me First say that for me i was just sitting HOURS to only see perhaps 1 or 2 Details what Behind the doors ...

for the Area behind the "Working Office" there are only 2 maybe 3 Pics where i can located



We see Working on Chassis CSX2286 - Daytona Coupe,
right behind some Section Wall
some not typical inner structure with some Wood between the
Sectional Wall going from Office Backside and going to behind
the section Wall in Front shows me there where a passage

on the roof we see the inner side Brick Wall to Outer Frontside
(or even to second Floor)

and Fun Fact: the Jacket inside the Working Office ;)


One of those Details who i regonice where i was and where i go,
was the Lamps hangingn on the roof,
we have the typically Neon but also these larger one on the right Corner
(Double Neon Light i dont know how to call this in English)




Here we have see that someone stands in this passage ...
notice that over this inner section seperated from the working
area are a big Storage room over the roof of this section,
all is seperated with Mesh.

we see some part on racks, and even a Cobra Hardtop laying
on the "Working Office"



Only Pic i found wich i dont asign to any secton of Princeton Drive was this
one ... i am not sure after all, but when i see the Skeetch from another
Post it is getting much more that is from the Aera behind section Wall
and Building Outer Wall

i see that Bike on another Pic, even ride from Mr. Shelby and next to
this landing in a river, but i dont find it in the Moment and it has
nothing to do with the inner side from the Building, only a little bit fun.



Part 4 with the "Engin and Dyno Room" Coming soon.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 06:11:45 PM by Szabo »

Szabo

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And here comes Part 5 with "Enginge Room & Dyno Run"

first Pic i found was this one ... yeah a Dyno Run, but where the Hack is ths in Building,
so i was quick count the Window and they: Juchuuuu, at the Backside,
because 4 Frames wide x 2 = 8 Frames wide total


second Pic i was located was this one,
i see the same center wiht engine or parts from

but the only Detail to locate where this Room was, are the Lamps looking behind the
Doors, you see this "Double Neon" ones from my Post befor...

Boy i wasnt sure after all when i make my Resarch but i was close and right enough...



so i had some thougts and create the Hole Room behind this 2 Pics...
Lets go on ...

so start again with my Pic rought backside throw to the Door, we still se this Lamps outside
what we also see is the backside of the section Wall who seperate the Room from the
Working area...
theres is a wood Frame Construction and some sort of pipe going from right to left



on the left side from the Pic befor along the Woodfram Construction with the showy pipe i found this nice one ...
the Man have some Bizeps.
but we still see also there is a Corner and a side Section Wall also,
these Means the room end here ...



moving a little bit right from the standpoint we still see the Door open,
Woodframe Construction Section Wall but at the right side, the Brick Wall
and some Engine Parts hanging on the Wall (cylinder head gasket)


here we see Door Closed, Brick Wall (Cylinder head Gasket on the Wall)
and a Man working, he wears a showy Pinafore ( i must google that  ;D )



first i dont even notice the Pic, nothing special on it, but i keep it in my head
and have see some Posters on Wall, even a Pin Up Girl one ...


and then i was seeing this Steve Mc Queen Photos again, and yup,
same Pin Up Girl Poster, so we know Steve Mc Queen was there
to see Cobra Engin



A good Pic to see the hole Side from the Brick Wall ist the follwing...
we have also finished the Side behind the door from left to right corner
on the side Brick Wall with no Window on it...

(Remember this for later, there ar just not enough Door or space
to bring it out, but at this Point of Time i thinked they come out
of the Sliding door we saw an the first Pic inside)


again on other Side wie spin ourself and look from inside thruw the
backside Window ...
this remarkable Dyno Run there is even and old Advertisment with this one
note the Doors !


The Pic which brings the Woodframe Construction Secton Wall
together with the DynoRun Room is this one ...
You will see it in the Backround, so i had all four Wall together...


We look at the Right Side from the Dyno Run and there is a Door going outside,
too, and some Woodframe Construction again right where the Dyno stand.
Note for Later Standpoint working ... we see the outer Side from Dyno Room, but
when there was another Section Wall we see from first pic inside, where ist this at
the Room ???




O.k. so far so good, but to exactly show where the Dyno stands i must got
inside ... At this point we only now after the first Window frame from
the Backside

But what is this, there is a Window, on the Backside, but only
4 Frames wide, not 8 like always said and count, then comes
another section Wall, note the little Window on right side...
these means the Dyno stands on Window 2 but only Half from these
Window

Also we have the only look at the Backside where is a parking lot
(not this Junkyard where the Diesel Cab parked, so it is proofed that he
stand no behind 1042)



Last one is the outer corner from Dyno, nothing special, see the
frontdoor to Dyno, but i liked the Carroll Shelby Enterprises Logo
and see the 10 Years Goodyear Poster



i will later add the Skeetch so far, but we also have another Part
because there must be the Sliding Door i said befor....

Stay tund and say something, not for my Ego, just to have
some thougts from you ...

Steve

« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 07:36:42 PM by Szabo »