AC Cobra VS SAI Cobra

[tesgt350]

Who built that AC Cobras.  I was under the impression they were the first ones built at SAI.

[Bob Gaines]

Where is the popcorn emoticon when you need it?

[camp upshur]

 
I'll presume this is a serious question.
The Cobra's progenitor was Auto Carriers LTD est 1901.
The first Shelby Cobra was built at 10820 Norwalk Blvd Santa Fe Springs California.
There is a lot of accessible basic research out there.

[shelbydoug]

The cars were built by AC Cars in England and shipped to Shelby as rollers where the engine and transmission were installed.

The cars go through somewhat of a metamorphism as production progresses with changes in badging and even VIN tags.

They are very simple cars and very simple changes seem like major ones.

Generally speaking because they were ordered and built in batches of 100, they can be referred to as types built. Within those groups there are exceptions because of individual cars being used as development cars and factory race cars.

The devil is in the details. Probably the Cobra Registry delineates them the best and most accurately. That is where you should start your research and base your information on.

As Commander Scott might say, "you remind me of the man who demands to be told the wisdom of the World while standing on one foot". 

[557]

Shipped ac aces from ac to shel,he popped a v8(and other stuff)in em and made them"fun"...

[Dan Case]

The cars were built by AC Cars in England and shipped to Shelby as rollers where the engine and transmission were installed.

The cars go through somewhat of a metamorphism as production progresses with changes in badging and even VIN tags.

They are very simple cars and very simple changes seem like major ones.

Generally speaking because they were ordered and built in batches of 100, they can be referred to as types built. Within those groups there are exceptions because of individual cars being used as development cars and factory race cars.

The devil is in the details. Probably the Cobra Registry delineates them the best and most accurately. That is where you should start your research and base your information on.

As Commander Scott might say, "you remind me of the man who demands to be told the wisdom of the World while standing on one foot". 

Doug's outline is about as short of way of writing out the "Shelby" part as possible and very good. If you look up Ken Rudd you should find that Ken Rudd and AC Cars teamed up to produce ACE RS2.6 cars with British Ford inline six cylinder engines and transmission years before Cobras were created.  The RS2.6 cars were successful racing cars when race prepared. When Mr. Hugus (money) and Mr. Shelby (enthusiasm and desires) came into the scene RS2.6 cars and Cobras were made at the same time for a brief period. The Cobra while not an exact copy of the RS2.6 with an engine transplant was based on the Rudd RS2.6. Many of the types of dress up and performance accessories available for Cobras had been available special order for RS2.6s years earlier. Soon Rudd/Ford/AC cars passed to the background while Hugus/Shelby/Ford/AC roadsters went big time. The first race car (CSX2001, the first production chassis converted to the first race car) and the earliest street cars were finished in Ed Hugus' dealership. The first Shelby works prepared racer was CSX2002. Ford took financial control at CSX2008.

[propayne]

Not sure, but maybe the original poster is asking about the Cobras that remained in the United Kingdom and Europe which got the COX, COB, etc. prefixes?

- Phillip

[Greg]

Thanks, Dan, I love and appreciate the education. 

[camp upshur]

Dan,
Thank you (as always) for your substantive postings.
My interests are historical accuracy (which is always evolving!)
I am familiar w 'Cobra Pilote' and was piqued by its seeming speciousness. It picks up at CSX 2001 and would leave one to believe that the Shelby Cobra was conceived and built in Pennsylvania. This may not be untrue.
Where I disconnect is CSX 2000. There is a timeworn belief by many that the Shelby Cobra was initially created in Dean Moon's shop and that Hugus' story, while not untue, picks up from that minimized point. In candor: I don't know.
I was a bit hesitant to make this posting for fear of appearing snarky which is certainly not my intent. As a researcher though, the adage of success 'having a thousand fathers' is a constant  point of vigilance.
Respectfully,
Steve

https://images.app.goo.gl/y83kXqHb7rMGYEy56

[tesgt350]

Not sure, but maybe the original poster is asking about the Cobras that remained in the United Kingdom and Europe which got the COX, COB, etc. prefixes?

- Phillip

Talked with a Guy who said he owned the Psychedelic Cobra for a few Months back in the 80's and when he was asked why only a few Months, he said because it was an AC Cobra and not a Shelby Cobra.  That's why I asked the question.  I thought some of the Shelby Cobra's had the AC Emblems on them.

[propayne]

I've got a mountain of Cobra/Shelby books and reference materials including old registries but I'm feeling lazy and don't have time right now to thumb through them. Plus I know the Hugus story has been illuminated lately so -

The Cobras that remained in the U.K. - did they go to US/Shelby and then back to the U.K. (can't remember)?

Or were the engines, transmission, etc., shipped over for installation at AC?

- Phillip

[A-Snake]

Talked with a Guy who said he owned the Psychedelic Cobra for a few Months back in the 80's and when he was asked why only a few Months, he said because it was an AC Cobra and not a Shelby Cobra.  That's why I asked the question.  I thought some of the Shelby Cobra's had the AC Emblems on them.

AC had the rights to complete and build Cobras for 'the rest of the world' which totaled about 10% of the Cobra production. Those cars wore AC emblems on the front & rear.  The car you are referencing is COB6107. That is one of 26 AC 289 Sport cars built. The AC 289 Sport was a group of coil spring chassis with 289's.   The balance of the 10% finished by AC Cars Ltd were leaf spring chassis. Engines were shipped to AC Cars to for installation.

[tesgt350]

Talked with a Guy who said he owned the Psychedelic Cobra for a few Months back in the 80's and when he was asked why only a few Months, he said because it was an AC Cobra and not a Shelby Cobra.  That's why I asked the question.  I thought some of the Shelby Cobra's had the AC Emblems on them.

AC had the rights to complete and build Cobras for 'the rest of the world' which totaled about 10% of the Cobra production. Those cars wore AC emblems on the front & rear.  The car you are referencing is COB6107. That is one of 26 AC 289 Sport cars built. The AC 289 Sport was a group of coil spring chassis with 289's.   The balance of the 10% finished by AC Cars Ltd were leaf spring chassis. Engines were shipped to AC Cars to for installation.

Thanks A-Snake.  At the time, were they considered as actual Shelby Cobra's?

[Dan Case]

Dan,
Thank you (as always) for your substantive postings.

You are welcome. There were/are literally dozens of publications (hard and soft bound books and magazines) covering all the cars of AC, Rudd and AC, and Hugus/Shelby and AC. I have so many books we built a book case (with our grandchildren's help) to hold them all in our guest room. I don't have a copy of everything I am aware of. Some are not very good or have so many mistakes they are painful to read.  I have dozens of period magazines following the stories as they happened.

Different countries, companies, clubs, and private parties have their own frames of references. If you only read publications centered around Mr. Shelby you get one view. If you read books written by former Shelby American, AC Cars, or Ford employees involved you will get different perspectives from the all. The Shelby American Automobile Club versus AC Owners Club, very different points of reference.

AC Cars Ltd built all the chassis in England. CSX2000 was a running prototype test mule at AC Cars for quite a while. Its coachwork (a.k.a. body work) was left bare aluminum. The 221 2V Fairlane engine and Borg-Warner T-10 transmission provided through Ford Motor Company was removed before the chassis was shipped to America. It landed so to speak in Dean Moon's facility to get returned to a running car with the serial number one High Performance 260 engine and a transmission.  Many people know the story of the crew polishing the aluminum skin into a uniform appearance. 

Most, but not all, Cobras and 427 Cobra chassis that came to America were complete cars down to outer body paint less engines, transmissions, radiators, expansion tanks, most coolant hoses, and ancillary small parts required for all the installations of components. Very early cars had radiators of AC Cars  design installed in England by AC cars.  For most, not all, chassis the windscreen (a.k.a. windshield) assemblies, all the exhaust system components, and charging system mounting components were shipped from AC Cars separately.

One very close friend really gets a laugh at shows when a clueless bystander asks him what exactly his car is. His answer is along the lines of it was a kit made by AC that some guy name Shelby finished. The typical response is a deer in the head lights look as the person walks away totally clueless that my friend just described a genuine 1960s Cobra.

Until replicar or later 'continuation' production of something looking something like an original 1960s Cobra or 427 Cobra grew beyond a curiosity the leaf spring chassis cars were very often known as Cobras or AC Cobras.  From my recollections it wasn't required to know who made what as long as every car that started off at AC Cars before the 1970s in England.  With no telling how many people of companies were making replicars some distinctions arose over time. You might have an " X  Cobra" where X could mean an original 1960s car, any one of many replicars including one off home builts, or the continuations that Mr. Shelby commissioned or AC Cars or AC Heritage.   I have been told that there may be something like 60,000 or more replicar/continuation cars out there somewhere now.

Data mining the Registry is interesting. Very early cars were often sold as "SHELBY AC COBRAS". After Ford Motor Company became fully entrenched so to speak 86% of those identified as such in the Registry were Cobra-Ford or just Cobra cars.

Invoice Name..................... Percent
Shelby AC Cobra................  9.1%
   
Cobra-Ford......................... 75.2%
Cobra ................................ 10.7%
                       86.0%

A detail most people miss is that Mr. Shelby's places and teams were not the only "one" completing new CSX2xxx cars.  Ones that I know of include.
AC Cars
Dean Moon's facility before Mr. Shelby got his own facilities.
Ed Hugus' Continental Cars
Shelby's various places and teams
Holman-Moody

Most miss the detail that more than one "shop" prepared race cars at some time or another. Ones that I know of include.
AC Cars
Continental Cars
Shelby's works
Holman-Moody
John Willment Automotive
Alan Mann Racing
Plus several privateers

Different countries, different small installation ancillary parts, different facilities, different companies, different teams even within a given company, different ideas on how to do things, and evolving specifications results in a very complicated Cobra history. Thank you keepers of the Registry!

[mark p]

...One very close friend really gets a laugh at shows when a clueless bystander asks him what exactly his car is. His answer is along the lines of it was a kit made by AC that some guy name Shelby finished. The typical response is a deer in the head lights look as the person walks away totally clueless that my friend just described a genuine 1960s Cobra....

Great story  and a chuckle - thanks