Author Topic: Service Replacement  (Read 2640 times)

Dan Case

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2018, 10:57:26 AM »
Thanks Mr. Case.  Your description is appreciated.
And some wonder where this forum is heading!!!

Your welcome. Dan
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

gt350hr

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2018, 11:41:11 AM »
  Over the years "I" have seen the description of parts change. As we become more educated as to what "original assembly line parts are and look like ",  some buyers are obsessed with an "assembly line" part for the extreme high end restorations. NOS  "to me" is an obsolete ( no longer serviced ) period part. Again because we are so discriminating, a new call out NORS was created for NOS parts (still OEM boxed/packaged/marked) that through "evolution" differ a bit from "assembly line" parts.  For example , one of the parts available for the longest time from Ford was the Koni shock.  Finding a 'new" set with '65 or '66 dates would "to me" be NOS and ones from the '80s would be NORS "to me" because of the date and changes that Koni made like water color decals versus vinyl stickers , hardware etc. Both "new"  and "old stock". There are MANY other examples. Cobra tachs, S2MS gas caps, Wheels , Valve covers , emblems, etc. I welcome other opinions.
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Dan Case

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2018, 11:56:48 AM »
Interesting.  I had always thought NORS wasn't necessarily a Ford part and NOS was a Ford replacement part.  NOS wasn't necessarily assembly line correct, but bought from Ford back in "the day".

My frame of reference was the restoration of old cars prior to the mid 1970s and yes people had been "restoring cars" for several decades by then already, like restoring a 1903 car in 1912.  Before the mid 1970s most old car enthusiasts NOS meant made during the production time frame by the original maker with the original tools. (Surprise, some companies make parts for production and some make parts purely for service in more than a few industries.) Ford made (had made) popular 1965 model year parts for more than 30 years with few exactly like production parts that I ever got into my hands.  If enough people wanted 1966 Mustang front bench seats and hounded Ford to get some made they probably would. They offer in service what is 1) a legal obligation and 2) what is a ‘fast’, popular, and profitable seller.

Prior to the mid 1970s the business of supply parts to return cars to some resemblance of day one or even day two was very small. When I started reading Hemmings Motor News it wasn’t much bigger in rectangle or thicker in pages than a typical local swap and shop type magazine at your local convenience store. The largest section covered the 1928-31 Ford Model A car period and there were not many advertisers.  Businesses like Kanter® were around and a few others that still exist.  I don’t recall a single business that sold genuine O.E.M. factory parts from production or otherwise. The businesses were directed at keeping cars on the road and not maintaining them just like any factory created them. The quality of parts my father bought ranged from horrible to with enough effort you could make them work. I recall buying some brake parts for a 1930 Ford Model and not a single one of them would fit much less work. I took some parts to a machine shop to be fixed and had one made from scratch based on severely worn one.

These days there are sellers offering remanufactured parts as “NOS”, well it is from their frame of reference probably. There are also people collection dozens for very rare never installed assembly line versions of parts, using them to secure judging points, removing them after one show or maybe a whole show season, putting them back in the packages, and selling them as factory NOS.   Once used they really are not “new” anything anymore, especially electrical parts that may have been damaged (cracked ignition distributor cap I saw offered for example).

The parts from any source, including the O.E.M., that were not exactly like the “originals” were some variation of replacement.  Just because it comes in a Ford package doesn’t mean it is just like original.

Example: 1995 Ford F250 optional wheel center covers molded in plastic and chrome plated.  They were fragile and easy to break. The first time from new truck my tires were rotated one was broken. The dealer service department ordered one.  What came in was a redesigned stronger part.  I tried to get another “original” but the service manager told me that Ford recalled all the “originals” and now the new one was all you can get. My truck was six months old and all we could get was a New Replacement, new meaning not the same as before.

Example: 2003 Focus SVT 5 Door center high brake light. During the first winter the red lens broke at a screw hole. The only thing Ford had was a revised design so that is what the dealer installed. The next winter it too broke. Again Ford replaced it and again a now third design was used and it could take going through cold weather. In that car’s case there was original and two different replacements UNDER THE SAME SALES NUMBER in less than two years.

Today it must be terribly confusing for car owners and restorers to wade through all the descriptions sellers use.   I suspect is in part individual frames of reference. If for example somebody takes the effort, which can be enormous, to create a really authentic “replacement or reproduction” and it takes them ten years to sell all of them, then to him everything they didn’t sell immediately became their new old stock or new old replacement stock.  Maybe somebody bought some of those parts but for any number of reasons didn’t use them, then them they might be new old stock. The situation I run into hunting Cobra parts are brand new replacement parts being sold in an estate sale situation. The wife, son, brother, et alii only know that part was purchased in the past and never used so top them it is new old stock even if it is a custom designed performance aftermarket part.

In summary, speaking solely for myself I do not rely on what sellers advertise parts as.  It is up to me to identify what is for sale.

Dan
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2018, 12:21:15 PM »
We need a new classification for used-up clapped out-parts photographed next to a FoMoCo box with part #s written in with a Sharpie.

gt350hr

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2018, 12:23:12 PM »
+1 Dan. Buying 'NOS" parts can become an ugly experience with lesser informed sellers. They have a Ford boxed part that is new , check it for application on the internet , and put a price on it . I have seen CURRENTLY available parts listed as NOS advertised for OVER Ford retail. Another growing issue from "estate sales "  is  the USED part going in the replacement's  Ford box and set on a shelf. This has now filtered down to our local swap meets.  I now open boxes ( some sellers request I don't) to ensure what they are selling is "new". It really pays to know part numbers and "bundle" whenever possible.
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gt350hr

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2018, 12:24:48 PM »
We need a new classification for used-up clapped out-parts photographed next to a FoMoCo box with part #s written in with a Sharpie.

   New Old Pookie Excrement     NOPE   For short
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Bob Gaines

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2018, 12:30:16 PM »
I hear the words service replacement parts and also assemblyline parts here quite often. So we all know we would rather restore our cars with assemblyline correct parts.  I'm no expert by no means of the imagination, but is a service replacement part considered NOS and/or OTC?

Sometimes I get confused as to what the real definition of "service replacement" is. I do know that when a person back in those days went to the Ford parts department, and received a part, that part IS a service replacement, but still is considered NOS??  That's where I have trouble on occasion.

I have a front bumper on my 69 that is a Ford replacement with a date code of 1980.  So, is it still considered NOS but also a service replacement?
The bottom line is that a part can be New Old Stock or Over The Counter and not be like what came on the assemblyline. The reverse is true also . The trick is knowing the difference from study. It is done on a case by case basis by comparison. There is no sure fire easy button to press. It is very rare that you find a NOS part that is not a service part because it would be sold new over the counter somewhere. The exception are those rare parts that walked out of a Ford Plant in a lunch box etc. or OEM overruns. Painted oil filters come to mind because they were not meant to be sold over the counter but only used on the assemblyline.  Yet they show up from time to time most likely smuggled out in a lunch box etc.  Your bumper is NOS but the date code being after production of the car in question makes it a service part in context to a assemblyline part. It is still New Old Stock however. Not all parts have date codes.  In the context that you would be selling parts, if something is still available from Ford you could not ethically call it NOS because it is still current and not Old. For parts sold new that are not lunch pail parts or overruns it is technically OTC because it is sold over the counter somewhere ,someplace.  Over the counter in the context to the Shelby and Mustangs we are discussing more typically refers to a part that was not used on the car when new but can be retro fitted for use . Electric antenna , different steering wheel , exhaust etc.
Bob Gaines,Shelby Enthusiast, Shelby Collector , Shelby Concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Dan Case

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2018, 12:40:03 PM »
…. made by a ford backup vendor or the second vendor when the part made isnt exactly like what was used on the assembly line & some parts were never serviced by ford so to be concours correct you have to restore the used original parts.

This is for Cobra, 427 Cobra, and 289 Sports owners in the audience. Ed mentioned production only parts.

Among FoMoCo, AC Cars Ltd, Ed Hugus, and Shelby’s companies there were a bunch of parts used in making these cars new that were never service items and some only available while cars were still being built just like yours.  That doesn’t mean that you couldn’t get something that could be made to work.   (By the time CSX2025 was built it was very important to be able to tell the service department exactly what your chassis number was to have any chance of getting a suitable replacement (factory authorized replacement part would be one description) part. )

Many of the Ford parts were at the time in a state of rapid evolution; an assembly as complex as a carburetor might have only been a “production” part for three months.  Some parts and assemblies in new Cobras were Ford prototype or experimental parts made in extremely small numbers and often in multiple versions in a short period of time. Some visible engine parts were engine assembly plant only and not offered as service parts.  Ford designed or had designed parts just for new Cobras. Ford also had production runs of parts made just for new Cobras beyond the time they had been obosoleted in use by Ford in building new cars. Going back to Ed’s post, at least one significant Cobra part was made by different sub-tier manufacturer than the similar Galaxie part.

AC Cars wise, many part designs changed rapidly under pressure from owners, racing, dealers, Shelby, and Ford.  AC Cars also completed some cars and their materials and methods were usually different than the shops of Hugus and Shelby. Many parts in a Cobra are unique to AC Cars including quite a few fasteners.

Ed Hugus wise, cars finished in his shop had many small parts and final assembly details different than what either AC Cars or Shelby’s companies did.

Shelby’s works wise,  a really big subject and too broad to do anything but touch on other than say specifications changed frequently in 1962 and 1963, not so much so 1964 onward. Going back to Ed’s post what Shelby American used on street and race cars was often quite a bit different what they sold through the service and parts department. While most main stream FoMoCo parts could be obtained, there is no evidence that some Ford, AC, and or Shelby parts were ever offered as service parts. This was especially true with racing parts, i.e. Shelby’s race teams used one thing and they sold customers something a little to a lot different.

So, Cobra-427 Cobra-289 Sports wise, various companies including various versions of AC Cars, Ford, American sub-tier suppliers, and British sub-tier suppliers  have made factory replacement or original company (original company name means almost nothing) parts for these cars as far back as April 1965.  Being old since as far back as 1965 and new doesn’t automatically mean any new car got that exact part during original assembly.  Example: In last month quite a few AC Cars or just British made service parts from the 1970s and 1980s have shown up for sale on ebay® as “NOS”.
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Dan Case

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 12:44:18 PM »
+1 Dan. Buying 'NOS" parts can become an ugly experience with lesser informed sellers. They have a Ford boxed part that is new , check it for application on the internet , and put a price on it . I have seen CURRENTLY available parts listed as NOS advertised for OVER Ford retail. Another growing issue from "estate sales "  is  the USED part going in the replacement's  Ford box and set on a shelf. This has now filtered down to our local swap meets.  I now open boxes ( some sellers request I don't) to ensure what they are selling is "new". It really pays to know part numbers and "bundle" whenever possible.

+1 Randy. Good one. A few weeks ago I bought a "NOS" bearing in a Timken® box made for Shelby American. The seller would not look in the box so I took a chance. It was cheap. Timken included Shelby's S1CS Cobra part number on the box flap. Guess what was in the box? A  totally different kind of bearing that was very used and dirty. It was an old Timken bearing though.... (f.y.i....The bearings and most seals in Cobras et alii were made in England. Shelby American's service bearings and seals were made in the USA in the exact same time frame.)

It is best if buyers know exactly what they are looking for. Unfortunately I often hear from a Cobra or 427 Cobra owner AFTER they paid premium for something that turned out to be a post production replacement of some time frame or type. Paying $X for an old service part or reproduction that can be purchased still for half the amount is not something buyers like to hear.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 12:58:03 PM by Dan Case »
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

69mach351w

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 01:00:01 PM »
Thanks to all!!  for years I get so many conflicting descriptions about NOS, service replacement. Now, NORS, etc,.

These posts are very informative and I am still trying to learn and/or teach myself about such descriptions of parts everywhere on the car. Sometimes at a Mustang/Shelby function, I try to listen and learn from, whom I presume are the Best in the business.  But, sometimes I leave the show after a big weekend, as confused as before the weekend started.

I do understand that this can be an ongoing discussion, but thats what these forums are for, and I'm going to be the first to say, I have learned a tremendous amount of knowledge about the Shelbys and Mustangs.

Thanks to all and accept my apology for being so impatient!!!  I'm sure it happens to many of us.

Keep the discussion going cause I haven't stopped reading yet!!! :o



Coulda been a Shelby owner many times in the 80's/90's. Was always so close but yet, so far away for me......

69mach351w

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 01:36:49 PM »
Ok, Dan, this is where I get somewhat confused. On your very last sentence at post #22. you say,  "Example: In last month quite a few AC Cars or just British made service parts from the 1970s and 1980s have shown up for sale on ebay® as “NOS”.

But according to some reading info here, service parts are NOS.

Bob's reply to me at post #21......    Your bumper is NOS but the date code being after production of the car in question makes it a service part in context to a assemblyline part. It is still New Old Stock however.  Of course we all understand my bumper is not assemblyline.

This is where confusion comes in. What is correct? I'm sure we all agree that a genuine ford service replacement part is in fact NOS??....

Now I'm not talking about repop here at all !!!  Repop is not in this discussion at all.

Thanks 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 01:40:36 PM by 69mach351w »
Coulda been a Shelby owner many times in the 80's/90's. Was always so close but yet, so far away for me......

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 01:48:41 PM »
   New Old Pookie Excrement     NOPE   For short

 ;D

Bob Gaines

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2018, 02:20:55 PM »
Ok, Dan, this is where I get somewhat confused. On your very last sentence at post #22. you say,  "Example: In last month quite a few AC Cars or just British made service parts from the 1970s and 1980s have shown up for sale on ebay® as “NOS”.

But according to some reading info here, service parts are NOS.

Bob's reply to me at post #21......    Your bumper is NOS but the date code being after production of the car in question makes it a service part in context to a assemblyline part. It is still New Old Stock however.  Of course we all understand my bumper is not assemblyline.

This is where confusion comes in. What is correct? I'm sure we all agree that a genuine ford service replacement part is in fact NOS??....

Now I'm not talking about repop here at all !!!  Repop is not in this discussion at all.

Thanks
Since I was quoted I will take a shot on a comment . There still seems to be a misunderstanding of the term NOS. It is new unused , It is old ( typically obsolete), inventory.  That Term is a description of condition and degree of obsolescence .   The other terms are more a description of usage for inventory intended for the retail market.    What is correct? I suppose it depends on how you use it in a sentence.  In the case of your bumper and in the context of compared to assemblyline you would have to narrow it down some because that statement could cover a wide range . If you mean correct for 68 production it would have to have to be dated during production of the cars on the assembline. If you are talking about correct for a specific car it would be relative to the assemblyline date of the car in question and how much earlier the date code was to be correct for that specific car. FYI service parts in many cases came with identification that assemblyline parts didn't have which is another clue to a service part compared to a assemblyline part. In the case of the bumper, a sticker with a prefix starting with C7 was placed on the back side of the bumper that needs to be peeled off for use on a car to look more like assemblyline. Keep in mind that the end game is to look for items that look like or made to look like assemblyline.  FYI parts in many cases evolved in one way or the other over time in the service system. That may be due to being engineering it better , economy and or made for use on more then one application . You might have two or three versions of a marker light for example depending on time period it was produced. All three may be NOS but only one may look like assemblyline and the rest are different variety's of service parts during the parts evolution.
Bob Gaines,Shelby Enthusiast, Shelby Collector , Shelby Concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Dan Case

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2018, 02:55:53 PM »
Ok, Dan, this is where I get somewhat confused. On your very last sentence at post #22. you say,  "Example: In last month quite a few AC Cars or just British made service parts from the 1970s and 1980s have shown up for sale on ebay® as “NOS”.

But according to some reading info here, service parts are NOS.

Bob's reply to me at post #21......    Your bumper is NOS but the date code being after production of the car in question makes it a service part in context to a assemblyline part. It is still New Old Stock however.  Of course we all understand my bumper is not assemblyline.

This is where confusion comes in. What is correct? I'm sure we all agree that a genuine ford service replacement part is in fact NOS??....

Now I'm not talking about repop here at all !!!  Repop is not in this discussion at all.

Thanks



Ok, Dan, this is where I get somewhat confused. On your very last sentence at post #22. you say,  "Example: In last month quite a few AC Cars or just British made service parts from the 1970s and 1980s have shown up for sale on ebay® as “NOS”.
DC: The seller called them new old stock.  Two different potential buyers asked me separately about them. They were obviously new and unused.  They were as far as my research indicates made sometime in the 1970s or no later than the 1980s. In this case I have parts actually installed by AC Cars in a new chassis, ones purchased from them in the 1970s and during the mid 1980s for comparison.  They all do the same job but are when compared side by side all obviously different in manufacturing methods,  tolerances, surface finishes, and design. Using the old understanding (before the 1970s) they were new old replacement stock by the original manufacturer. (Nothing wrong with that but if they had been exactly like production parts in every way their auction lot value would have probably been much greater than it was.  The Cobra owner that bought them got a great deal as almost nothing made commercially that we know of since about 1990 is a true 100% bolt out bolt in replacement by itself. That is changing as accurate recreations are in the works currently.)

But according to some reading info here, service parts are NOS.
DC:  In summary of several posts, these days “NOS” is in the mind of who is selling and who is buying not unlike saying ‘let’s go get a beer’, what kind of beer, draft , canned,  bottle, ale, IPA, ????  The person saying it has something in mind.  Recently we took advantage relaxing at a bar that claimed to have something like 300+ different  “beers” on the menu.  If a business expects to turn over inventory every month then anything left from the previous month might be considered NOS. Don’t get hung up on what somebody advertises something as, ask questions. 

Bob's reply to me at post #21......    Your bumper is NOS but the date code being after production of the car in question makes it a service part in context to a assemblyline part. It is still New Old Stock however.  Of course we all understand my bumper is not assemblyline.

This is where confusion comes in. What is correct? I'm sure we all agree that a genuine ford service replacement part is in fact NOS??....
DC: New and Old, sure but “NOS” does not mean that it was every used in any new car by itself.  Ford having new tools and new suppliers to make 1967 Mustang service parts in the 1980s were “factory” parts and were Mustang parts.  Genuine Ford, sure. Now in 2018 old, sure. Correct, for what, day one no. NOS as used today by most users does NOT equal assembly line correct. It can be “correct” in terms for being a factory authorized replacement like the F250 and Focus SVT parts described above.

Now I'm not talking about repop here at all !!!  Repop is not in this discussion at all.
DC:  Not always. Going back to the last response.  If anybody, including Ford like they did for the 1967 Mustang front valence has to study old original parts, create new drawings, find somebody to make new tools, and find somebody to produce new replacement parts THOSE PARTS ARE REPRODUCTIONS.  The maker might call them reissues or just service parts. So like the 1966 MUSTANG GT350 fuel cap and the 1967 Mustang front valence they were both start over reproductions sold through Ford dealers as service parts.  In those cases the only thing “original” was the part numbers carried over.

Thanks
« Last Edit: Today at 01:40:36 PM by 69mach351w »
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

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Re: Service Replacement
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2018, 03:03:31 PM »
NOS parts need to be stored properly to retain their value!!

About 10 years ago, I drove 8 hours to buy a NOS lot of early Mustang parts.  When I got there, I found rusty, pitted parts in Ford boxes and wrappers.  I said to the older gentleman "these parts are not worth the price we discussed, they aren't worth any more than used parts".  He proceeded to throw a couple parts at me and I left.

Lesson learned!