Author Topic: How much difference? (Mk II)  (Read 1277 times)

mark p

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How much difference? (Mk II)
« on: November 25, 2019, 10:10:56 PM »
Would someone please explain how much difference there is (was?) between the GT40 MkIIs as built/raced by Shelby American vs the "lightweight" cars run by Alan Mann at LeMans in 1966?
(I'm especially wondering about this after seeing the Movie a couple of times and trying to explain to non-car folks about the yellow Mk II XGT-1  that we visit at the Simeone Museum)
Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 10:49:04 PM by mark p »
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shelbydoug

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2019, 06:43:20 AM »
I'm not sure that was ever documented scientifically? At the time it was proprietary information.
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mark p

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2019, 08:18:40 AM »
thanks Doug. I wuz wondering why no immediate/detailed response here (usually the BEST source)

I'm also going to try emailing the Librarian at the SImeone Museum... they have a huge stash of books and other documentation. Maybe something definitive?
"I don't know what the world may need, but a V8 engine's a good start for me" (from Teen Angst by the band "Cracker")

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Coralsnake

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2019, 08:35:12 AM »
Im sure you can get educated at the spring fling, when a lightweight car appears.
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shelbydoug

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2019, 08:36:47 AM »
I don't know if you can find an original as raced version of each to compare?

Also at some point (for the '68 race season), the cars are no longer GT40's! They are GULFS!. I'm not sure how the Alan Mann versions relate to this since to me, there is just a changing of the VIN tags.



I was standing in the pits in '68 with a friend looking at the "Gulf". I can't remember what track it was now? Must be the lingering effects of the fumes of all that race gas? Hum? Might have been Lime Rock?

The Ferrari people come after me there also? Must fear 'Yanks? ;)



The rear deck was open and I was looking for the VIN tag on the firewall behind the driver's seat. (engine side).

My friend didn't know what he was looking at and I said "it's a '40". Well with that, one of those 'Euro' jockey/socker players appeared (might have been Mann himself?) and cursed me out something fearse.

Closed the rear deck and started screaming about it's a "GULF!". What a nasty SOB!

It was that Grabber blue with orange highlights and orange horseshoes on it. Never did find the VIN tag or number on it.

It had a Boss 302 with huge 2" something primary pipes on the headers. Neat car but guarded by some kind or a nasty UK Euro trash pit bull.
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JD

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2019, 09:21:39 AM »
Would someone please explain how much difference there is (was?) between the GT40 MkIIs as built/raced by Shelby American vs the "lightweight" cars run by Alan Mann at LeMans in 1966?
(I'm especially wondering about this after seeing the Movie a couple of times and trying to explain to non-car folks about the yellow Mk II XGT-1  that we visit at the Simeone Museum)
Thanks.

In the 2019 SAAC Shelby American Annual, page 140, the Spring issue, Greg Kolasa the SAAC GT40 Registrar has an article on XGT-3 - The Never Raced Racer, It Doesn't Get Older - It Gets Better.  This was the third of the three lightweights built for Alan Mann for 1966 that would run , the other two being XGT-1 and XGT-2.

He states that basically the cars had aluminum body work in place of fiberglass saving more than 100 pounds.
'67 Shelby Headlight Bucket Grommets http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=254.0
'67 Shelby Lower Grille Edge Protective Strip http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=1237.0

mark p

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2019, 05:10:05 PM »
...In the 2019 SAAC Shelby American Annual, page 140, the Spring issue, Greg Kolasa the SAAC GT40 Registrar has an article on XGT-3 - The Never Raced Racer, It Doesn't Get Older - It Gets Better.  This was the third of the three lightweights built for Alan Mann for 1966 that would run , the other two being XGT-1 and XGT-2.

He states that basically the cars had aluminum body work in place of fiberglass saving more than 100 pounds.

Thanks JD,
I thought that I'd seen references to "aluminum construction", but it was not really clear.... I'd better get reading on the Annual!
... can also check with the museum curator about the aluminum vs fiberglass parts.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 07:09:41 PM by mark p »
"I don't know what the world may need, but a V8 engine's a good start for me" (from Teen Angst by the band "Cracker")

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98SVT - was 06GT

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2019, 06:55:42 PM »
64-65 original GT40 with small block
65-67 MKII with big block
67 MKIV (all carry J chassis numbers) with big block. Completely American built car
1968 FIA changes rules to ban big block engines
1968 original GT40 comes back a Gulf Mirage with new body work wins until 1970 if I remember correctly.
There was also a street (small block) MKIII with a different nose to get the headlights up to a US legal height.
The "light weights" were the small block cars. After Mile's death in the breadwagon J car they added a lot more chassis connection points and completely redid the bodywork. The MkIV was VERY heavy for the time.
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66 Hertz

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2019, 11:15:08 AM »
There is some discussion on the Alan Mann GT40s and on that subject, some caution should be exercised as there are two very different “Alan Mann Lightweight” GT40s. The first two are AM GT40/1 and /2, which were built around lightweight Abbey Panels chassis. These cars had slightly narrowed roof sections (not as narrow as the Mirage cars) and all-aluminum bodies; small-block engines provided the power. They debuted at Sebring in 1966 where neither finished although while they were running, they were fast. Next stop was at the LeMans Trials in April where, again, the cars were fast but didn’t last. Being concerned that the cars wouldn’t survive 24 hours (or worse still, they outlast and outperform the Ford factory MKIIs), Ford instructed Mr. Mann that if he should wish to enjoy the benefits of Ford support, he would do so with 427 MKII cars. The AM cars were sold off (one going to Paul Hawkins to eventually become among the winningest GT40s ever).

Alan Mann had three essentially standard MKI chassis built up (recall that MKIIs were modified from MKI chassis received from Abbey Panels) but with lightweight roof sections; dimensionally, the cars were identical to the Shelby/Holman-Moody MKIIs. These cars were designated XGT-1, -2 and -3 and were being built into MKII racers by Shelby American at the airport, along with the cars that they (Shelby) and H-M would race; Mann and H-M personnel joined the Shelby crews to assist in the construction.  In late May (I believe), it was decided to stop work on XGT-3 to save on critical manpower, parts and time expenditures. GT40 P/1012, which was run by Mann at Spa and which was still in Europe would be designated as the spare car for the Ford LeMans effort. XGT-3 was not completed until AFTER LeMans and as a show car for the MKII Tour following Ford’s victory. Initially, it was completed as a near carbon-copy of the winning P/1046 but later repainted red. Neither of the XGT cars (XGT-1 and XGT-2) entered by Mann at LeMans finished (LeMans was their only race), and it is the yellow #8 XGT-1 that currently resides in the Simeone Museum.

There are some nice period pictures of both types of Alan Mann GT40s (taken by Chuck Cantwell and Ron Sampson) in my “Through Their Own Eyes” article, which is in the 2017 SAAC Annual and my article on XGT-3, the “Never Raced Racer” appears in the latest  Annual. And, of course, for those who’d like to further overdose on Alan Mann GT40 information, there’s always the Cobra/GT40 Registry.

I hope this clarifies things…

Greg

alexgt350h

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2019, 04:59:18 PM »
AM GT40/1 will be on display at this next year's Indiana SAAC Spring Fling. Come see the car, talk to the owner, get all the Alan Mann information you can handle.
May 15-17. Nashville, Indiana, Brown County State Park.

mark p

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2019, 10:29:06 PM »
Thanks for those details Greg. Seems like plenty of room for confusion when one considers those earlier [very quick] Mk Is.
If I concluded that a "lightweight roof section" was the main difference between XGT-1, 2, & 3 and the other Mk IIs (answering my original question)... would that be correct?
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Richstang

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2019, 10:53:55 AM »
Greg,

Thanks for the write up on the lightweight Alan Mann Ford GTs!
Your articles in 'The Shelby American' were also informative and enjoyable with all the new shared photos.
 8)

6R07mi

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Re: How much difference? (Mk II)
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2020, 12:54:33 PM »
I took some photos of XGT3 back in 1977 at a SAAC MCR activity "Carnival of Cars" at the old Packard proving grounds,
the car was unrestored then.

http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218120802.jpeg

http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218120914.jpeg

http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218120350.jpeg

http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/484-070218115824.jpeg

regards
jim p
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