Author Topic: better option than detroit locker?  (Read 2729 times)

shelbydoug

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2020, 11:24:38 AM »
If the DL was installed at all it would have been some time in the year 1994 or 1995. Don't know there were Motorsport springs in that time frame? I mean the car rides fine and I have no complaints. But I like the idea of having something heavy duty bullet proof in the rear. Some here are saying they break up after a while. Maybe I should just leave as is. If it works don't fix it right?

Sure they were. i still have one in the box new in the shop. They were in the catalog back in the '80s and folks have been playing with them since the '60s.

Absolutely leave it alone if you like it.

For me, more then the noises it was that it would wiggle the rear when you're on the car hard. The Traction-lok is much smoother but I can feel the loss of power when the left side is driving. That isn't my imagination but the combination of the two did throw me 1/2 a lane over when they lock up.

That combined with the violet bump steer were too much for me to deal with on the street. I didn't need all of the addition paranoia. The roads are tight here. You need to stay in your lane.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 11:29:03 AM by shelbydoug »

mygt350

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2020, 11:30:47 AM »
If anyone has any early model 28 spline small spring DL components, I would be interested in acquiring them.
Continuous caretaker of 5S228 since May 1967

Jim Herrud

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2020, 05:32:27 PM »
I'd appreciate some help identifying my 31-spline Locker in preparation for selling it. Would this be an early-design standard unit? A later "Soft-Spring" unit? An Chinese Eaton knock-off?
I tried to educate myself using the internet. I found a number of good websites covering the Ford 9" and a bit about differentials and Lockers, but none that dig into this level of detail.

The cast-in number says "02833  M - 3". (Goofy looking "M")

There is what appears to be a date cast-in as well, but it is mostly machined away on the ring gear surface. The visible part shows the date as 4/1/82 or '83 (or maybe '92/'93?).
This unit was made on April Fools Day?!

There are two stamped numbers on the machined surfaces: "64530" and "64531".

The housing is machined, but when it was turned, only about 50-60% of the cast surface was removed. Does this indicate a level (or lack) of quality? Does this affect its resale value?

This DL was installed in '93 and removed in '16 before being used. Diff gear oil was never installed. Only the one axle bearing was still attached when I got the unit back from the axle shop.


Is this info useful to you Locker Gurus to help figure out what I've got?

I apologize if this is going too far afield of the original topic. Please feel free to move it to the appropriate section.










Shelby Buff. I'm a driver - Not a docent.
I used to be a “Vintage Car” guy. Now I’m just a “Vintage” car guy.
"There's never enough horsepower - Just not enough traction." - C.S.

shelbydoug

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2020, 08:09:19 PM »
It's a typical case. The difference is going to be internally like what spring is in it.

The bearings are tough to grip and get off so just leave it on unless it is bad.

All the castings are machined like that. I always thought that the stamped numbers are serial numbers.

SFM5S000

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2020, 08:28:23 PM »
Jim,

I'd say it's an earlier one, late 60's earlier to mid 70's. Looking at the as cast back side and partial machined with the two holes. Do they know how to make these in China?
Anyway, later versions (I bought 2 in the last 10 years) have 4 holes. The one in the photo are my 3:89's (gears have been lightened, polished, EDM etc) the set in my car are 3:64's. Just a touch deeper than 3:50's. These Lockers are from Tractech model 187S 13A 28 spline units. The only numbers I could find was stamped 70882. They do make noise, as in the classic "Ka-Bang!" occasionally but it's part of the GT350 experience, if you will.
They're relatively new and make noise as described for all the reasons mentioned above.
I took these photos a couple minutes ago and dated it today so you know I didn't swipe photos from the internet.

Cheers,
~Earl J


Jim Herrud

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2020, 09:15:33 PM »
I don't know about Chinese versions. I was just concerned because I didn't buy this DL myself back in the '90s. I let my drive-line guy source it. After seeing the beautiful machine work on 1109RWHP's lightened Locker and my Moser Wavetrac and then comparing that to the rough casting on my DL, I was thinking I might have let my guy pull one over on me by buying a sub-par unit (assuming one exists). It's good to learn that this rough finish is not unusual or indicative of a poor-quality DL.

Here's a couple photos of my Moser Wavetrac. I'm often impressed with the machine work of many of these internal parts. They are works of art. It seems a shame to cover them up!

Thx to you and Doug for your input!





Shelby Buff. I'm a driver - Not a docent.
I used to be a “Vintage Car” guy. Now I’m just a “Vintage” car guy.
"There's never enough horsepower - Just not enough traction." - C.S.

shelbydoug

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2020, 07:53:22 AM »
You can get more accurate information from Randy on your unit but it looks typical to me.

I've only done a few as this is Chevy country and I've only done Ford 9" rears.

I think that the casting date on it is not a '60s date. Looks like an 8 or 9 to me from the camera angle.



You need to consider that the reason SA used the DL in '65 was for product availability and initially the concept of the GT350 was a racing version of the Mustang.

They were given the project on a no notice basis and sourced as best they could in determining a final product configuration.

Certainly after deciding on the side exhausts with glass packs, a little banging here and there in the rear was hardly noticeable?



I think at the time the 5 clutch Ford Traction-lok was not available yet. It was the wimpy 3 disc version and that would not stand up to competition use at all.

In any case, yes, if you are building an accurate '65 "clone", the dated DL version is what you probably should use? It was too much of too much for me when I "tried one".



Knowing what is available now, there are other alternatives better suited to a car with A/C that I would consider?


Earl, why aren't you running an aluminum Strange housing? Saves 20 pounds and goes with your lightened gears more appropriately?

sg66

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2020, 10:48:27 AM »
Certainly after deciding on the side exhausts with glass packs, a little banging here and there in the rear was hardly noticeable?

Finally someone stating the obvious + solid lifters ^

I’ve had a locker for 40 years, yes you get the occasional bang at 40-50+ MPH as it locks and you look in the rear view expecting to see the rear end scattered all over the road and yes the car jerks a little but that and the clunking in reverse give the car character IMO. For a tribute, I guess it depends on how much you want to copy the original to get those quirks but there are obviously less dramatic options to stick both wheels to the ground

If “low noise” is the goal, there is always a Prius.

deathsled

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2020, 11:18:09 AM »
^^^^^
Prius Lol!  Even the chosen name of that car sounds insignificant and suggestive of a one celled protozoan one might glance at under a microscope.  Where do these manufacturers come up with these names??

I will look into a DL for my car if it doesn't already have it.  There are none of the characteristics that have been described in this thread that I have noted.  But I don't drive my car too hard.   
"Low she sits on five spoke wheels
Small block eight so live she feels
There she's parked beside the curb
Engine revving to disturb
She's the princess from his past
Red paint gold stripes damned she's fast"

shelbydoug

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2020, 12:02:30 PM »
Certainly after deciding on the side exhausts with glass packs, a little banging here and there in the rear was hardly noticeable?

Finally someone stating the obvious + solid lifters ^

I’ve had a locker for 40 years, yes you get the occasional bang at 40-50+ MPH as it locks and you look in the rear view expecting to see the rear end scattered all over the road and yes the car jerks a little but that and the clunking in reverse give the car character IMO. For a tribute, I guess it depends on how much you want to copy the original to get those quirks but there are obviously less dramatic options to stick both wheels to the ground

If “low noise” is the goal, there is always a Prius.

There is a scene in the film Jaws. In this scene you can clearly hear Captain Quint spewing all sorts of explatives and barking out orders.

This is the "Chiefs" wifes first exposure to Quint and standing with her husband, the "Chief", she asks, "is that Quint?" The Chief replies "yes, colorful isn't he?"

It's about the same comparison. The '65 GT350 is quite "colorful" and certainly part of it is the locker. ;)

Would you have it any other way? ;D

Royce Peterson

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2020, 01:43:51 PM »
The 28 spline Detroit Locker was used in the '65 Shelby because it had a 4 pinion differential and it worked for an entire race. The 2 pinion Equa Lock was all that Ford had back then. The 4 pinion Traction Lock was introduced for the '68 model year in the GT350 and GT500. While it was a major improvement over the Equa Lock it still only lasted a few thousand miles on the street.




I think at the time the 5 clutch Ford Traction-lok was not available yet. It was the wimpy 3 disc version and that would not stand up to competition use at all.

In any case, yes, if you are building an accurate '65 "clone", the dated DL version is what you probably should use? It was too much of too much for me when I "tried one".



Knowing what is available now, there are other alternatives better suited to a car with A/C that I would consider?


Earl, why aren't you running an aluminum Strange housing? Saves 20 pounds and goes with your lightened gears more appropriately?
1968 Cougar XR-7 GT-E 427 Side Oiler C6 3.50 Detroit Locker
1968 1/2 Cougar XR-7 428CJ Ram Air C6 3.91 Traction Lock

deathsled

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2020, 01:50:39 PM »
Detroit Locker in action...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNGnNHPzipU

Short explanation of locker...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv4Tba7gUC4

Aussie locker noise...this one seems to illustrate best, the sound...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF6tJvzlT7U

And a diff opened up with one that has issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ctaQ90tUkk


« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 01:56:58 PM by deathsled »
"Low she sits on five spoke wheels
Small block eight so live she feels
There she's parked beside the curb
Engine revving to disturb
She's the princess from his past
Red paint gold stripes damned she's fast"

mlplunkett

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2020, 05:59:38 PM »
Bad information - the Detroit Lockers made in the past 35 or so years make no noise at all. Obviously you have not used one or rode in a car equipped with one. Nothing is felt driving on the street, going around corners or not. On loose soil, wet pavement or gravel you will sometimes notice the inside wheel skidding. The identical same thing happens with a Traction Lock that is not worn out, and other clutch type differentials until they wear out.

   mlplunkett,
     You can buy a NEW forged steel case traction lock in the low $300s on epay. This is a very quiet "clutch type" limited slip that will be fine for your use. IF you use the axles with C4OW on the end you will not break them until 400 wheel HP and on a drag strip with the traction lock. Use certainly can upgrade to a 31 spline axle as Royce wisely suggested. I had to switch about 30 years ago in my mid 11 second ( then) '66 Hertz car.  I was fortunate enough to have a pair of genuine '65 A/FX Mustang axles ( 31 spline) and simply switched to a 31 spline locker at the same time. You will have to use an aftermarket axle to get 31 splines.
     Next up would be the Gleason ( true track) and Auburn ( cone type) units . They are also quiet , smooth , and virtually trouble free , especially in a street / cornering application They are also available in 28 and 31 spline.
     "My" last choice for the street is the Detroit Locker , especially with a manual trans. The inherent "play" in the internal gear mechanism produces a noticeable "clunk" when cornering and what road racers call the "locker lurch". Some use this action as a driving aid to set and upset the car when cornering . Others despise it. I have a locker in my automatic equipped drag car because I don't want a "spool" ( it has NO differential action) . Avoid H case lockers ( 31 and 35 spline only) as they require an aftermarket 3.250 bearing diameter aftermarket differential case which is not needed for your use. It is critical with a locker to maintain equal tire pressures and diameters or your car will "torque steer" or worse yet keep the unit engaging and disengaging as you are driving. "Some" of the modern units have an annoying "clicking" noise as they corner at low speeds. Just the thoughts of a guy who's done Ford diffs since '68 when I was factory trained.
      The choice is up to you.
    Randy

Well, if you are a know it all, WTF are you coming here and asking anyone for their opinions?
Go take your Locker, insert it, and have a wonderful time.

I would think though that if you were making an accurate tribute, then you would want to experience the real thing? Not some teenage virtual reality?

Woah big fella, not sure who you're blasting here. I'm the one that asked for opinions but, just to be clear, none of these are my comments so I hope you're not calling me the know it all.
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65 R-model tribute under construction

1967 eight barrel

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2020, 02:53:27 AM »
I have a Detroit Locker in my Shelby as well. It makes a few noises on occasion and tends to "drag" one tire a bit in turns but nothing annoying enough to be problematic.  The one quirk, if you will is a low speed roll out in first and a quick shift to second and hitting it a bit. The car squats down, front end comes up and the rear pushes right.  Even with 255 tires in the rear there is no chance of traction.  The up side is they are solid.

                                                                                            -Keith

gt350hr

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Re: better option than detroit locker?
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2020, 11:56:42 AM »
    Wow , lot's of things flying around here!
   First ,
       The Detroit locker was "chosen" by SAI ( Chuck Cantwell )  because it was the most durable unit available "at the time". The two and four spider Equalock was a joke , and the early Gleason ( worm gear) unit broke the case often, leaving the reliable Detroit Automotive Products "no spin". Ford had them in their inventory so it was easy to "build" a special axle assembly that included the 2-1/2 wide metallic brake shoes , and send them to the San Jose assembly plant.
   Second,
   The DL doesn't have "spider gears" like a conventional , Equalock , or traction lock. It is a spring loaded , "ramp and dog" gear engagement unit. When the "bias"( cornering) overcomes the spring pressure keeping the gears engaged , the unit "ratchets" until the axle speed difference equalizes and the gears "lock" again. This is why throttle application in a turn can lock and unlock the gears. The DL unit has allot of internal gear movement or "play" that must be there for the unit to function. That play can cause noise when cornering . "Some" have an audible "clicking" noise while the unit is "ratcheting" , others are quiet. Common failures are "spun " carrier bearings ( usually on the "cover") and a broken bearing hub on the same side. Rarely the early "small spring" ('63-75 approx) 28 spline side gears crack or shatter usually after the driver's side axle breaks. The early "small spring" 31 spline side gears are designed differently and I have not seen one fail yet. "Modern" units with the big spring and 28 splines have a redesigned side gear and do not fail. The only lingering problem is spun bearings ( occasionally).
    Randy
Celebrating 46 years of drag racing 6S477 and no end in sight.