During my research of exhaust systems on 65's I ran across this picture. I have seen a number of cars restored to top level with fully painted black exhaust systems and in this picture it clearly shows that the headers and mufflers were black but the tail pipes were steel. I also notice that the pony emblem in the grill isn't there in this picture but restored ones now have them, I can't imagine Ford leaving them off or SAI taking them off so what happened?
Thanks for the education!
Keep in mind that photos like this were typically staged. SA installed the running horse emblem in the grille, it wasn't ordered from Ford that way. Only the first 3 cars came with fender emblems, so the LH running horse would have been an additional item acquired from Ford parts.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on June 02, 2020, 02:16:17 PM
Keep in mind that photos like this were typically staged. SA installed the running horse emblem in the grille, it wasn't ordered from Ford that way. Only the first 3 cars came with fender emblems, so the LH running horse would have been an additional item acquired from Ford parts.
Thanks Charles for the education! I can't imagine them painting the tail pipes black after the fact, did they?
Quote from: Greg on June 02, 2020, 02:46:10 PM
Quote from: CharlesTurner on June 02, 2020, 02:16:17 PM
Keep in mind that photos like this were typically staged. SA installed the running horse emblem in the grille, it wasn't ordered from Ford that way. Only the first 3 cars came with fender emblems, so the LH running horse would have been an additional item acquired from Ford parts.
Thanks Charles for the education! I can't imagine them painting the tail pipes black after the fact, did they?
For 1966 SA did not have to fool with the intermediate pipe or tailpipes. I have not seen evidence of 65 or 66 duel non GT tips painted black from the factory or SA.The didn't stick out and were out of sight out of mind for the most part. The 65 side pipe ends I believe came both ways. Of course I think black painted side pipes would be preferred given rusted ends would be in your face every time you got in the car. Whether or not the ends were square cut or angle cut ,early late thing etc. is another loaded question/subject.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on June 02, 2020, 10:11:43 PM
Quote from: Greg on June 02, 2020, 02:46:10 PM
Quote from: CharlesTurner on June 02, 2020, 02:16:17 PM
Keep in mind that photos like this were typically staged. SA installed the running horse emblem in the grille, it wasn't ordered from Ford that way. Only the first 3 cars came with fender emblems, so the LH running horse would have been an additional item acquired from Ford parts.
Thanks Charles for the education! I can't imagine them painting the tail pipes black after the fact, did they?
For 1966 SA did not have to fool with the intermediate pipe or tailpipes. I have not seen evidence of 65 or 66 duel non GT tips painted black from the factory or SA.The didn't stick out and were out of sight out of mind for the most part. The 65 side pipe ends I believe came both ways. Of course I think black painted side pipes would be preferred given rusted ends would be in your face every time you got in the car. Whether or not the ends were square cut or angle cut ,early late thing etc. is another loaded question/subject.
Bob, thank you and that leads me into my next question square vs. angle. I have also seen them both ways and common sense would tell me that the pipe was straight as SA wasn't necessarily concerned with cosmetics as much as performance. I know there has to be a common "acceptance" among the Shelby community. So from a judge perspective, if the entire exhaust was black and the tail pipe end cut straight would be acceptable in a concours class? Thanks again.
Quote from: Greg on June 03, 2020, 08:32:56 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on June 02, 2020, 10:11:43 PM
Quote from: Greg on June 02, 2020, 02:46:10 PM
Quote from: CharlesTurner on June 02, 2020, 02:16:17 PM
Keep in mind that photos like this were typically staged. SA installed the running horse emblem in the grille, it wasn't ordered from Ford that way. Only the first 3 cars came with fender emblems, so the LH running horse would have been an additional item acquired from Ford parts.
Thanks Charles for the education! I can't imagine them painting the tail pipes black after the fact, did they?
For 1966 SA did not have to fool with the intermediate pipe or tailpipes. I have not seen evidence of 65 or 66 duel non GT tips painted black from the factory or SA.The didn't stick out and were out of sight out of mind for the most part. The 65 side pipe ends I believe came both ways. Of course I think black painted side pipes would be preferred given rusted ends would be in your face every time you got in the car. Whether or not the ends were square cut or angle cut ,early late thing etc. is another loaded question/subject.
Bob, thank you and that leads me into my next question square vs. angle. I have also seen them both ways and common sense would tell me that the pipe was straight as SA wasn't necessarily concerned with cosmetics as much as performance. I know there has to be a common "acceptance" among the Shelby community. So from a judge perspective, if the entire exhaust was black and the tail pipe end cut straight would be acceptable in a concours class? Thanks again.
I would find a vintage picture (there are many different vintage magizine shots) to support the way you do it so that if the issue comes up at a concours venue you have proveneince for what you did.
when i got my first 65 back when they were 2 grand i started looking at crs that were original like at the first Dearborn convention and the one at Mickey Rooneys motel in PA. that was many years ago . what Im gettingat is the side pipes. on original cars ivenever seen any sustems other tha black. Like Bob said, having a rusty outlet pipe wouldnt look good I bought an original owner car in the 80s Elderley Ldy) that had never been back to the dealership and it was black as well. car was always serviced by her maintenance man at her estate. Her husband had an AM DB5. i have seen pics of the side pipes angle cut but most Ive seen had straight cut so we will accept either at SAAC Concours judging
Quote from: acman63 on June 03, 2020, 03:11:43 PM
when i got my first 65 back when they were 2 grand i started looking at crs that were original like at the first Dearborn convention and the one at Mickey Rooneys motel in PA. that was many years ago . what Im gettingat is the side pipes. on original cars ivenever seen any sustems other tha black. Like Bob said, having a rusty outlet pipe wouldnt look good I bought an original owner car in the 80s Elderley Ldy) that had never been back to the dealership and it was black as well. car was always serviced by her maintenance man at her estate. Her husband had an AM DB5. i have seen pics of the side pipes angle cut but most Ive seen had straight cut so we will accept either at SAAC Concours judging
Thank you Jim, I sincerely appreciate the response!
Quote from: Bob Gaines on June 03, 2020, 10:25:46 AM
I would find a vintage picture (there are many different vintage magizine shots) to support the way you do it so that if the issue comes up at a concours venue you have proveneince for what you did.
If they came both ways from the factory the magazine article would only be accurate for that car. I doubt SA painted anything in the exhaust. Headers would have come painted from the mfg as would mufflers. The rest of the exhaust was probably made out of steel with an aluminized coating and wouldn't rust for several years. Pretty sure the 66 cars came with the standard hi-po dual exhaust and SA just cut at the right spot and welded on the collector flange to connect to the newly installed headers.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 03, 2020, 08:13:31 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on June 03, 2020, 10:25:46 AM
I would find a vintage picture (there are many different vintage magizine shots) to support the way you do it so that if the issue comes up at a concours venue you have proveneince for what you did.
If they came both ways from the factory the magazine article would only be accurate for that car. I doubt SA painted anything in the exhaust. Headers would have come painted from the mfg as would mufflers. The rest of the exhaust was probably made out of steel with an aluminized coating and wouldn't rust for several years. Pretty sure the 66 cars came with the standard hi-po dual exhaust and SA just cut at the right spot and welded on the collector flange to connect to the newly installed headers.
We were not discussing the headers on 65 or 66 however it is universally accepted that they were painted. As far as the 65 exhaust pipes there are historical photos showing the entire exhaust system painted . There are numerous first hand accounts of the same .With that said there is also evidence for unpainted also and first hand accounts of same . Hence they came both ways. With that reality and until more definitive documentation on if random or early late issue etc. is discovered SAAC , MCA and Mid America Shelby allow both. My suggestion for having the vintage picture documentation on hand was more for the "know it all arm chair expert " that might dispute how it was done. There was NO aluminiumized coating on 65 exhaust components. so that you can be better informed in regards to your statement of " Pretty sure the 66 cars came with the standard hi-po dual exhaust and SA just cut at the right spot and welded on the collector flange to connect to the newly installed headers."SA didn't cut anything on the Ford system. SA did not weld collector flange to Ford intermediate pipes. SA replaced the hipo H pipe with their own special made H pipe which made the transition from SA exhaust to Ford duel exhaust (not hipo specific) intermediate pipes. hope this helps.
BTW I make the complet 65 exhaust system , I have the headers metal ceramic coated satin black . the rest of the system I leave bare metal as they have to be fit to the car and welded at thefront flange. thats really the only way you can get them level and parallel. especially since there are so many brands of headers made and they are all different except mine which are made in a solid fixture
Quote from: acman63 on June 04, 2020, 10:38:50 AM
BTW I make the complet 65 exhaust system , I have the headers metal ceramic coated satin black . the rest of the system I leave bare metal as they have to be fit to the car and welded at thefront flange. thats really the only way you can get them level and parallel. especially since there are so many brands of headers made and they are all different except mine which are made in a solid fixture
+1 .Used them on a number of occasions ether on my own or helping others. I would highly recommend.
Seem strait cut in this period pic.
Quote from: camp upshur on June 04, 2020, 03:57:50 PM
Seem strait cut in this period pic.
Notice the unusual exhaust hanger tabs.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on June 02, 2020, 10:11:43 PM
Whether or not the ends were square cut or angle cut ,early late thing etc. is another loaded question/subject.
For consideration for those who might care: one of the useful values of the tail pipe section, that is after the muffler within the direction of the exhausts' intended major flow direction, other than just to route the exhaust fume from under the chassis is to provide a scavenging effect upon the muffler improving flow efficiency within. This being accomplished due to the reflection or reversion value acquired at the pipes' presentation to atmosphere, this being most effective with the pipe terminating squarely, cutting the pipe at an angle tends to dampen this effect. ;)
O.K., I know.............who cares? :-[
Scott.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on June 04, 2020, 04:54:39 PM
Quote from: camp upshur on June 04, 2020, 03:57:50 PM
Seem strait cut in this period pic.
Notice the unusual exhaust hanger tabs.
Interesting enough, 5S109 (which has never been restored) has what looks like adapter plates attached to the floor that matches the area where these tabs are shown in the photo. Obviously the kits that are out there today don't have the exhaust hanger tabs.
Anyone have pictures of one of these systems with the tabs installed?
Quote from: Greg on June 04, 2020, 06:13:09 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on June 04, 2020, 04:54:39 PM
Quote from: camp upshur on June 04, 2020, 03:57:50 PM
Seem strait cut in this period pic.
Notice the unusual exhaust hanger tabs.
Interesting enough, 5S109 (which has never been restored) has what looks like adapter plates attached to the floor that matches the area where these tabs are shown in the photo. Obviously the kits that are out there today don't have the exhaust hanger tabs.
Anyone have pictures of one of these systems with the tabs installed?
Typically hangers are saddle clamped to pipe. Early cars had one hanger at leaf spring bolt. Later cars had a extra hole drilled infloor behind fron sets near tunnel for a nsulated hanger to help hold the bend part of the pipe . The tip end was secured with a bracket utlalizing front leaf spring bolt as hanger point. Like Jim C.pointed out the best way although not factory is to weld all of the pieces together to keep exhaust from sgging esspecially on the early cars with only the one hanger at the front leaf spring bolt. You can disguise the weld joint with a saddle clamp for a more factory look even though it doesn't need it what with the weld.